TL;DW: PB Blaster is garbage, WD-40 is cheap and effective, Freeze Out is inconsistent, 50/50 is better than nothing. Exposing marketing BS one VJO at a time! / ave
It's been my experience that if it's stuck hard enough you can't break it by hand with a cheater, then no manner of oil is gonna touch it either. It's only after the fourth or fifth penetrating product I try, that I put some heat to it, melt everything that might be important nearby, put some more muscle on it, and shear the bolt head right off.
That’s the truth Tiger. I just had one on a fuel tank strap that I tried to save, even had it moving back and forth a quarter turn, still snapped in the end.
Ha! Smells incredibly foul, which I always thought lent it an iota of credibility. From my own experience, I still think it's better than WD. WD makes me mad, because people misuse it as a lubricating oil, or use it where they should use a soft grease. It washes away the film of lubricating oil on parts like locks and hinges. People don't do that PB, 'cause no one can stand the smell lol. I order it in at my shop, and not a soul but me will touch the stuff - at least until the WD or Seafoam Deep Creep run out.
I like PB too , smells like the dickens , but if you let it soak in for a while , it works pretty dam good. I still use WD for lubricating on the fly without the odor.
WD-40 is great for literally everything. That's why I add just a little to all of me and my families meals. Also if anyone wants to donate to my gofundme, I need a new throat so it would be appreciated
Been using WD 40 forever. Cheap, available everywhere, and works great. I’m not afraid on it being a toxic chemical.. I have it on my bare hands almost every day. Never had any skin reactions with it. I spray small parts right in the palm of my hand. I’m not saying it you shouldn’t be more careful with open cuts, but I can’t tell you how many times it loosened bandaids on my hands. I’m close to 70 now and been using this product since its inception.
Even if it isn't the best penetrant (I know, arguing w/ the numbers), it's definitely work keeping around simply because nothing I've tried works better as aluminum cutting fluid for the price. Seriously magic.
25 years ago PB Blaster was different. You could take rusty salt corroded New York exhaust pipes apart without have to use a torch! You couldn't do that with the WD40 back then. Great experiment AvE
I did some fancy staterstics for your results: - WD-40 and Freeze Out have virtually identical errors thanks to that outlier - WD-40 and Freeze Out do not have statistically different breaking strengths (p = 0.84) - WD-40 and Secret Sauce do not have statistically different breaking strengths (p = 0.78) - Freeze Out and Secret Sauce are more different, but still not statistically significant (p = 0.33) - WD-40 and Freeze Out are both basically statistically significantly better than PB Blaster (p = 0.08 and 0.02) - Secret Sauce and PB Blaster are not statistically different (p = 0.35) - Cheating and removing the largest outlier from each set makes WD-40 and Secret Sauce have statistically different breaking strengths (p = 0.04), no real changes in other comparisons Just some fun numbers for the conversation. Hope you give us some more samples next time ;)
Zander Horn i assume you're using a t-test? if so, the distribution is too similar to estimate much except for error - or, at least, i suspect your scaling term is probably within sigma, which is kind of sketchy. chi-test would just return noise with 4 results, there are too many degrees of freedom and the H0 is somewhat unclear. it would probably be better to lump all the results together and FFT to look for signals.
The Freez-Out is strictly a coolant; not lubricant. It shrinks the part, and ya gotta jump on it cold, like sweet revenge. Another thing you can do is apply your penetrating lube and tappy-tap-tap with the handle of a screwdriver or other softer material. The vibrations *greatly* increase the capillary action of the penetrant and allow it to infiltrate the oxidation. Just like how your industrial vibrator causes particles to decrease their angle of repose (enginerding term!). Cheers, AvE!
The Greybeard that taught me always had me wire a cotton ball to the threads to act as a reservoir for whatever penetrant I could get my hands on. That's the only suggestion that I have. Otherwise very nice testing! And no, I don't want to go F my hat
What information would that have given us? The point of this was to use a penetrant to bring the breaking torque as close to a CLEAN bolt as possible. The CLEAN bolt was the control.
Kroil is the best. I have been shocked at what it could do. Please test against the rest. I freed up a flat-head sitting in the field with the stuff and manage to recover the block after 60 years of rain and rust.
I'm a gas turbine aircraft mechanic and Kroil is the ONLY penetrating fluid we can or would use. If you want to talk about the worst of heat-cycled and seized fasteners, I can promise you I've seen it. Kano Kroil is the sh!t!!!
Biggest problem with Kroil is that it can be difficult for the "home gamer" to get their hands on, last I remembered... You might be able to order it from other places but ISTR there was a huge markup for smaller quantity orders. They really want to sell bulk to shops. :(
I haven't had a problem as I just use my companies name when I order it. Once you order some, they send out coupons and offers on a routine basis that cuts the cost. The shipping can be a killer. Even so, it is the best chemical tool I have ever used.
Yup, need to add Kroil. I use it all the time for seized screws or nuts when working on guns. And WD40 is good for killing tent-caterpillars as well - shuts them down right away, but doesn't harm the tree...
I have my 3 jaw chuck stuck on my lathe spindle. I tried all kinds of things to get it out. My godfather recommended a few drops of eucalyptus oil and let it sit for a while (I previously let WD40 sit overnight on it too). While not a scientific test, the eucalyptus oil worked. Though maybe the WD40 had just soaked in further. Great test and thanks for sharing the test data! It makes me want to build my own rig to put other products to the test.
Apparently I've got nothing better to do with my Friday night, so I ran the numbers... Disregarding all the proper science, I did a One-way ANOVA with post-hoc Tukey HSD Test. Unsurprisingly, most of the comparisons are not significant, ranging from WD40 vs. FreezeOut at p=0.899 to FreezeOut vs. ATF at p=0.40. But the test actually produced one significant result: FreezeOut vs. PB at p=0.033, which is to say that FreezeOut is significantly better than PB Blaster when accepting an alpha error of 5% So yeah, I need some more friends...
Same conclusion. A dataset width of 4 is insufficient. If looked at from another angle, a way for the lay man to interpret the number p is to look it as the chance the two products are actually the same product. ;) For WD40 vs FreezeOut, that is 90%. That is statistically marginal. Nothing is learned here.
ATF/Acetone has never failed me. Rusted bolts (30+ years) on farm implements...no problem! Keep applying it over a couple days and you'll be amazed on how well it works!
Ive discovered ATF as creeping/penetrating oil about 5 years ago. Im a beliver in the AA Kool-aid solution. It works even in pure form when the thread is heated so the viscosity goes down. I terms of friction reduction atf has the highest shear resistance of the tested products.
Did some statistics for yall (using MATLAB, all units in mV): Means +/- Standard Deviation: WD-40: 827 +/- 76 Freeze Out: 791+/- 78 PB-Blaster: 939 +/- 24 ATF: 866 +/- 43 Significant Differences (alpha < 0.05): WD-40 vs PB-Blaster: 0.031 Freeze Vs PB-Blaster: 0.011 PB Blaster vs ATF: 0.025 There is no statistical difference between WD-40, Freeze out, and ATF mix, however one can reasonably conclude that, assuming experimental conditions were constant, PB Blaster is an inferior penetrating lubricant. I'd like to know more about how you ensured uniform rusting and all of that stuff. Very very interesting work here, though, Ave. TL;DR: PB Blaster probably not great. All the rest are about the same.
*AvE* A retest with new nuts and bolts torqued to a specific amount, then a bath in electrified rust causing solution for a specific time period would be a great way to test penetrants.
There is also the small factor of the time each penetrant had to “vork”. Whatever penetrant the first nut tested was exposed to had less time then the others. Still a great test though, enjoyed the video.
So the control "torqued slightly over at 120 ft lbs..." broke free well below any of the "treated" bolts averages?? Doesn't seem right to me...I'm under the impression it was a clean bolt just over torqued...but what do I know?
Either can be the control, depending on what you want to discover from the experiment. So, why would you want to know the torque for rusted without anything applied? Wouldn't be useful.
Chak Lee don't you think it would provide insight into a) how much the various concoctions assisted in the loosening and b) how variable the rusting process might have been?
I also have spent a ton of time laying on my back, wrenching on on the gnarly side of GM's finest steel ravaged by Michigan winters and salt trucks. Not having an impact, and relying on the smallest muscles in my forearms while contorted like a pretzel to generate torque; I've found through my experimentation that alternating meager amounts of heat, PB Blaster, and occasionally some coaxing with swear words and a hammer would break most things loose eventually.
Anon Ymus Ed's Red is good stuff atf, acetone, lanolin, and some other stuff. Here is a link to a recipe. handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=9 Basically any kind of good lube dissolved into a solvent should work decently. It would also be interesting to come up with a good solvent for some moly lube and try that.
Yes! That's the stuff. We use it for breaking rusted fasteners at my school, it's also great for cleaning fouling from guns that shoot corrosive ammunition.
I have used a product called Krown T-40 rust protection and lubricant. It comes in a black,yellow and silver can. Maybe it's just me but this stuff has never let me down and I love how this stuff forms a film around whatever you spray! Rust that's not too bad will literally wipe right off if you soak it long enough!
Kroil can not be tested in this manner. There isn't any way to measure the break away torque after a dose of kroil has backed the nut all the way off of the bolt.
He had one rusty dry bolt which broke at 760. I'm guessing that's the control but it broke at a lower pressure than the average of any of the wet bolts. I don't get it.
PB used to be good, back in the day. If some of you guys remember they used to be a little picture on the can and something called the PB challenge where they wanted you to spray it into a styrofoam cup and it would melt the cup down basically to Shmoo. Back then there was a certain chemical in it that the EPA does not like today and it was forcefully removed from the product line. But today's version is pretty much worthless. Just remember if you want to totally destroy the usefulness of something and double the price ask the government for help.
I have a 10-15 year old can of PB blaster - it does pretty well. (you can tell I don't work on rusty nuts very often. I bought it to work on my exhaust.) it's the old can with the writing all over it.
Yeah PB Blaster is garbage now. Other tests on other channels rate it low to middle of the group too. This test proves that is where it belongs. Acetone and ATF is great and basically the same thing as Kroil. They both rate at the top for rusty nut removal, but the Acetone/ATF mix is much cheaper.
I prefer the atf mix myself... I was never a fan of the way pb blaster smelled.... Or the shitty jobs I used it on engrained the dislike for the smell into my mind....
I've found that PB Blaster works best when you've got a lot of time to let it chooch. Give her a squirt and let her brood for a week. Only way to get a fastener off that has close to a century of rust and grime built up in the threads.
Apparently, one important ingredient is time! Yup, you have to plan ahead. At least a week. It also helps to give the rusty bits a little tappy-tap-tap and re-apply the PB every couple days - it helps with the penetration. Best is if you can put a little torque on the fastener WHILE tapping AND squirting. Then give it a day or two to chooch. If it doesn't come loose after doing this 3 or 4 times, then more serious techniques are called for.
Yes plan a head. I restore old stationery engines. So Sunday or what every, spray or better still soak part all week till next week's free time! When I do anything at work, say you go a few days before to look at the job, I take a can of plus gas with me, spray all the parts then so when you get the call next week it's ready to whip apart. Old guy shown me this while in apprenticeship.
As someone who does restoration work on old (1923 indian currently) bikes, I've found even a week of PB isn't all that great. No clue how it's gotten such a good reputation, maybe it used to be significantly better. What I've found to work the best is either knock-er loose ( www.crcindustries.com/products/crc/crc-knock-er-loose.html ) or if you can find it the BG oil product ( www.bgprod.com/catalog/specialty/bg-in-force/ ). The BG stuff is expensive but worth it, it comes out as a foam and seems to not just run off the side of the fastener quite as bad.
Yeah, I rewatched the video and he does say it, so all good. However the first time I watched it, the last bit wasn’t there. No idea why, glitch on the aTV or the iPad, dunno. All is fine.
As an aircraft mechanic for American Airlines we also typically use Kroil as many have stated. Many of times thou even the great Kroil will not work. What we have found is that Dye Penetrant or in our particular case the Fluorescent Penetrant work phenomenally! These penetrants have different classes, 1-4 I believe 4 being the best and their capillary action is better than any thing we have found. This stuff has to find really tiny cracks in different materials so it gets in the threads of nuts/bolts with no issues. Unfortunately it is messy. Maybe you could design some type of test to try to visually see the capillary action of these materials.
Kroil is always my go-to for stuck nuts. Maybe for a bit more of a real world test, drill and tap pieces of mild steel? Not sure exactly you would fit that in your tester, but that seems to me like it would be more representative of real world. never would have guessed WD would have done anything! Also, I would be interested in seeing how bolts stuck in aluminum are effected by these. I occasionally run across small screws stuck right stiff in aluminum, like motor end plates 'n stuff, and I ALWAYS end up breaking the darn things.
You mean steel in aluminum? Kind of a different problem that appears the same but in today's world that is a very good idea. RJ the bike guy is always doing vids on stuck seatposts (AL) in steel frames. Very common problem.
cdburner5911 second vote for aluminum... I've had one can of kroil for about 15 years... first try is always WD or whatever else is handy at the time... next is kroil... next is blue tip wrench
Tapping requires a different kind of lubrication. Ferric corrosion and aluminum oxide are two very different challenges. They might require different products.
Having worked in a brass instrument repair shop, I remember us relying on PB Blaster to remove brass pipes that were corroded together, but looking at this it feels like we've been duped! I'd love to see how these things work on brass fasteners.
im a mechanic by trade, and i would have to say that PB blaster is one of my faves. it works all the time, but the trick is that it needs to penetrate into the threads and one good way of helping it do that is to spray the bold and hit it with a hammer. then let it sit for a hot minute. it gets the job done every time.
Ben Carter yep works great, I keep a toilet bowl gasket in the shop at all times for those real tricky bastards. A little heat and a little wax goes a long way, repeat as needed until successful. Hasn't let me down yet.
Potential wrinkle; ATF blend applied first, tested last. WD applied last, tested first. Freeze Out applied third, tested second. PB applied second, tested third. Some sat longer than others, though I doubt it would make a difference. Points to WD even more that being the case. PB is something I've had decent luck with, only costs 3 male deer at my local chinamart. Nice video no matter what.
If nothing else works I heat it up with a torch. And if needed cool it down with something like what you have here. Doing a few cycles of very hot and cold works pretty good.
Is there anything to be said for letting it soak over time? For working on cars at least, I always try to apply PB or Kroil in the days leading up to actually trying to crack stuff loose.
That usually works for me as well, however I have the old style cans havnt had to really use the new style stuff yet. Ill have to give wd40 a shot again by the looks of it.
drip pans in place, spray the ever living hell out of the area, followed by a lunch break and that normally works good enough for me. luch break works as a great timer
Tyler Stafford I agree and concur. Any time I know ahead of time be it ball joints or whatever, I usually start spraying a few days if not a full week ahead of time. He didnt use Kroil that made me worry. I disagree about PB blaster, been using it for years. Sorry,I stick to my tried and true methods. Everyone has there own methods,I do know that. In the end, the Red wrench beats them all!
Here in the South where it is humid and hot I use WD-40 to keep my machines fogged. It has proved to be the best method of keeping surface rust at bay. I think the water displacement helps when the machines sweat (everyday!).
But... m'PB Blaster! I loves me that alien drool. Seems to work so much better than the usual suspects, and feels great when you get it in yer eyes. Tastes great too on those impromptu under-car snacks. Just wondering if the soak time had any effect. I think I might have dosed each bolt with schmoo while it was in the test rig, let it soak for a specific -- and realistic, given under-car impatience -- time, and then do the breakout test. As it was, not only was each solution allowed different chooch times, but bolts within a test group had variable times too. I doubt it'd make much difference, and you'd probably see obvious trends in the data if it had, but it just seems cleaner to eliminate the soak time as a variable.
Someone else advanced the notion that the Canadian formulation of PB might be non-toxic and hence non-effective. The stuff I get here in VA is awesome.
Eastern Canada and wrenching on past-best-before-budget vehicles a friend and I have fought with endless good forsaken must be removed fasteners. Oddly enough PB has always been our go to. Always seems to require a couple smoke breaks to really let it sink in but it's never let us down. If it weren't for the torch and a healthy dose of PB Mike might have just rotted away under those Subaru exhaust port studs.
Interesting results aside - It's all good to be able to collect data from applying peak planetary inertia to oil field sized fasteners .. but the average shade tree is trying ass puckered just not to shear off some shitty twelve year old exhaust stud on his buddy's Nissan that he's wrenching on for a favour. Doesn't matter how stuck something is so long as I can stand on a ten foot cheater to bust it loose; far more useful to find what works on a 5/16 bleeder screw been in that square body caliper since 1984 without having to break out the easy outs. Not birchin' mind you .. just sayin.
I’ve grown up with WD-40 as a tool. Not that it was a miracle potion of some kind, but my dad explained its useful properties and I started using it on my road bike that I abused from age 10. There are things I wouldn’t use it for, but it is a very useful tool. I remember as a kid using it to literally clean mild rust off. Not having it is most similar to not having a pair of pliers.
As a professional auto tech, the only cold penetrant I use is the ATF/Acetone mix, though it works best if it can soak for quite awhile. The only method I've found more effective is to heat the fastener and then soak it with paraffin wax; the wax will creep up the threads as it cools. But a torch isn't always an option.
I doubt it, he probably pillaged the local village of all the available rusty ole nuts, he might have to take a trip to the shity to the ole folkies home to... procure some more
I did a similar test years ago. WalMart brand "lubricant" was the best, and PB was WORSE than the dry control group! Looks like our data lines up there.
Anecdotally speaking, after 10 years as a mechanic plus some more years screwing around with rusty siezed up crap, WD40 often isn't much better than a placebo effect. INOX is my choice over here, can actually see little bubbles as it penetrates into threads/bores/whatever. Also lubricates far better once the bolt is cracked. WD40/RP7 are bottom of the heap for me, and I've had the misfortune to be offered both as an only choice when helping mates out - the purchase of a can of INOX has often solved the issue. And yes, I did test that the bolt/roller/hinge etc was still siezed after returning from the shop but before applying INOX. CRC and a few others fill the gaps between the two. Freezing sprays in my experience are not particularly good for threaded components, we were given a few brands to try in our workshop, including Wurth. Need to use a hell of a lot (expensive stuff, too!) to get enough temperature differential on a bolt that's actually in anything (like an aluminium or steel housing). Just wasteful, for minimal noticeable effect. Where the freezing sprays DID seem to work well though, is for cracking tapers on things like tie rods and ball joints. Maybe because the mating faces of the taper are usually clean and unrusted, so the thermal contraction can work properly. On a thread I think the looseness of thread fit allows a heap of dirt and rust to build up, stopping the thermal shock actually doing much.
The gum hydrolic trick just saved my ass today... Blew a breakline 4 miles from any part store and it was leaking past the crimps. Then it hit me bought some gum opened the fitting stuffed in the chewed gum crimped again and was good to go... Thanks buddy keep up the vidjayos
I've been meaning to try that nerve-killing fruit punch myself, as I suspect the evaporation acetone tends to do helps pull in the ATF; given that, I suspect a better way to do it is put acetone on first, and then immediately apply the ATF. I would also have avoided using the high mileage stuff, since that is supposed to help stop leaks, and the path down the threads has characteristics of a leak.
Good point. I would suggest using a plain old ATF too. Like ATF-4 the Mec/ Dex stuff has more friction modifiers to help the bands and clutches in the trans grip better, not what you want in a penetrating oil.
Yeah good point and DOG_REDRUM here also makes a good point here too about the friction modifiers. Never thought about that. It does seems to work though. I tried ATF and Acetone, although I use more than a 50/50 mix of Acetone to ATF. Like 70/30 cause I find the ATF is still too thick and it seems to penetrate better if thinned a bit more.
Check out corrosion-x, that stuff is amazing. I use it every day at my job at the naval research laboratory as damn near everything we have gets covered in rust very quickly (my test site is 20 feet from the ocean)
TheHead You are my new hero. The RC channel Flite Test recommended using it on all electronics being used near or in water. I swear by it now. I have to order it because NO ONE sells it here. Its the greatest stuff ever!
WD was a staple growing up. we used it on our bikes, dad used it on his rifles, later in life i used it on my car parts and guns as well. You just cant beat it. Plus I like the smell way better than pb blaster.
Yeah, not crazy at all. He should read how many comments are also praising Kroil in here. Some even say it's magic how good it is. Lol. ATF/Acetone and Kroil usually always top the list in many tests. More than a 50/50 of Acetone ATF though. I found more Acetone helps better. A 70/30 mix Acetone to ATF thins the ATF even more and helps it penetrate better.
mrbadwr3nch I wonder if that is the same stuff they used to call heat riser solvent. Amazing stuff, but be sure to wear eye protection. In your eye hurts like hell.
You need to add Fluid Film and Krown Fast Acting Penetrant to the next series of tests, and also do a proper control with the same amount of rusted fasteners with no canned assistants liberally applied. Would also be nice to see a comparison between say 10 seconds of wait time vs 10 minutes and maybe even 30+ minutes after application of each product. Fluid Film is pretty impressive multi-purpose product. Lubrication, rust prevention, and rusty fastener medication. I haven’t used PB blaster in a long time. It works but I’ve always needed to liberally apply it and let it soak for far too long to be useful to me, or add heat. Fluid Film and Krown products have changed my Go-To can grab when a rusty bolt needs to be taught a lesson.
Yes, that's what he means, more Acetone. I do the same. Not quite to that extent personally, but maybe 70/30. I tried 50/50 and found it was still too thick. So I thinned it a bit more with Acetone and it seems to penetrate better.
With the freeze out, try setting up the jig, the spray it on right before the test. My idea is the heat differential is gone out the window by the time you're testing, and I think that the differential heating is a large part of how it works. Just my theory.
I suspect the results would be different depending on how long you let it soak. The funny thing is that I've never had any luck with normal WD40, but their penetrant formula has been OK. PB Blaster has always been heralded as the second best to either mixing your own or Kroil, the whole solvent/lube thing (put it in a plastic or styrofoam cup and it will dissolve it) and I've never seen good results with it. I've had OK luck with ATF/Acetone, but I can't seem to keep it in a bottle that is convenient for application. I did some research and found that those plastic laboratory type squeeze bottles with the plastic tube sticking out the lid should work, mixed some up and left it sitting on the table of my bridgeport- a few weeks later I found the bottle nearly empty, the bridgport table full of the stuff and no noticable hole in the bottle... it was weird.
I suspected the same but I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Again, it was sitting on the mill table and was down in the ways. The only stuff on the table was right under the bottle where the bottle bottom lip was sitting on the table. For it to have been vapor pressure pushing the stuff out it would have come out the tube, run uphill up the tube and then down the bottle, which I expect is near impossible. I have another oiler that came with one of my lathes that I might try (similar thing but smaller, and the tube doesn't go all the way down into the bottle so you have to flip it over to use it, but this one is full of Marvel's Mystery Oil which seems to work as a pretty decent penetrant, cutting lube and it smells nicer than the rest of this stuff (not sure what that stuff is made of)
On an old timer's recommendation, I used the ATF/acetone mix on a 37 John Deere motor that had taken rain in the exhaust. It took a couple of months but it did free it up.
In my empire of dirt it's 3rd generation received wisdom that WD-40 is what you use if it doesn't move and it should. (Nice that your tests lean towards what I thought "everybody knows.")
I always thought PB Blaster was good until I found Kroil. I like to support Blaster, they are based here in Cleveland...but Kroil is sooo much more skookum!
Other tests have proven the same actually on other channels. Kroil always kicks PB's ass and even Acetone/ATF kicks PB's ass cause Acetone/ATF is very similar to Kroil. Both consistently rate at the top.
I switched off to 50/50 ATF-Acetone about a year ago and I'll never go back. For the separation and application problems, I just bought a little $12 pressure pot sprayer and give it a little shake before applying. It does like to take its time to soak in (a couple hours, generally), but it works better than anything else I've ever tried. As the results here showed, I've also had miserable luck with all of the "freeze" products and they're also all ridiculously expensive. Never liked PB either and I've tried it for years and years since everyone else raves about it. My longest term test of PB was applying it to some 20 year old brake lines every day a month in advance or servicing them. Lines didn't budge. Last weekend I did the same job on a different vehicle and 50/50 did nothing on the first side when I attempted to loosen it immediately, but worked awesome on the second side that had sit for a couple of hours while I was working on the first side. My major gripe with the 50/50 is that it makes a fairly huge mess since it's super thin. It also doesn't help, in terms of mess, that it comes out of the pressure pot like foam, but in application that may actually help it. Hard to really know for sure.
I've always used PB, but whacked the bolt with a hammer and applied it multiple times. Sometimes heat. And really soaked the bolt in it. Maybe that's the game, it works if you use enough of it, and then you have to go buy another can.
If you don't mind dealing with noxious and dangerous liquids: boil some atf and pour that right on the bolt repeatedly then let it sit. Not only does it become even more viscous when hot, but atf has 40 herbs and spices of detergents which eats away at the rust.
Freeze Out, like you said, creates a temperature differential If you are in a cold environment it likely is less effective. 50 years of experience on the farm has led me to recommend soaking in diesel fuel overnight.
