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Quran (only scripture with 100% accuracy/preservation) says Allah is “Al-Ahad”(one/indivisible).Philosophically, It is impossible for 3 distinct perfections to exist simultaneously. Father (Perfection 1/distinct1) =Son (Perfection 2/distinct2)=idolatry.This is due to addition of two extra perfections that are Co-equal/Co-eternal&distinct with Allah(the most Exalted). Not just the Quran, but also the old/New Testament textually establish tauheed(monotheism). So, then why believe in trinity and associate two imaginary parts to Allah(one/indivisible/Self-Sufficient/All-Loving)? How could your love/worship be undivided/exclusive for Allah(the most Exalted) when there are two other equally unique/perfect entities to adore? The verses of bible used by trinitarians are extremely vague and require hard interpretation to extract the understanding that Father/Son/Holy Ghost are Co-equal/Co-Eternal&distinct.
Please speak with Fr Stephen more. His conversations with Fr Andrew are of course great but it’s so great to see Fr Stephen’s wealth of knowledge meet your wealth of knowledge in this unique way. Glory be to God.
This is my favorite episode so far. It feels like Jonathan finally found somebody to discuss up to the edge of his ability. I feel like most of the times it’s just him trying to make others understand, this one was an actual conversation.
@W-G Start at the beginning. It's all great, but they do begin with the fundamentals. Even if you're aware, it's good to have a refresher every once in a while.
I'm so glad the guest brought up the damage the idea of the nuclear family has done! I'm from a Mexican family so it's actually a foreign idea to how I was brought up and it's seen as a very American idea. My extended family would always go to my grandparents house and even further extended family would have reunions there too but not very often. I see how distant (both physically and socially) many Americans live from their families and it's sad. The other side of my family is like that and I am simply not as close to them because of that (that side of the family is American btw). I usually bring up the "nuclear family" along with the birth control pill as to what started the decay of the family structure in our culture.
NGL Im in the exact same situation except im on the American side. But im really disconnected from my Mexican side of my family now because of the death of my father and the falling out between my mother and my uncle. I really miss being with the Mexican side of my family. But you inspired me to reunite with them even if I have to leave out my mother and brother.
It makes me think about the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Ireland. One of the characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. Everyone finds him tedious, but they continue to invite him to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. If Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return.
I always enjoy Jonathan's conversations with Father Stephen because you can tell that he genuinely respects him. Often you see fathers looking up to Jonathan or asking him for clarification on symbolic and spiritual matters and it can feel a little awkward hierarchically. But with Father Stephen he's always in conversation with an equal, or even a superior, in insight and knowledge. It just feels right.
Dont be mistaken, consider the Holy ones who lived atop columns, and the holy fools like St.Basil who were consulted by even Bishops... I'm not insinuating Jonathan is a Saint in any way. But you may be mistaking the heirachy of the offices with the Souls who inhabit them... We kiss priests hands not because of _who_ they are but because of *what* they are _perse_
‘What it requires of us is a complete reversal of what is real.’ There is a reality behind what we think is real.knocking it out of the park, gentlemen!
Listening to you two cover the idea of the "not too close, not too far" makes me realise why early church fathers appreciated Aristotle so much, with his Mean and all that.
Thank you for the discussion! The balance of the strange and the familiar has been an area of contention for me for a long time. This video brought much clarity to me!
Man. I really wanted to hear Jonathan say "Satan wants to make you his bitch!" lol... he's too ethical for that so I won't mention it either. This really does make it quite clear to us to whom we should follow. This is why the gravest sin is Betrayal.
Seems like Orthodox Christianity is the answer in many ways for us in the deep west, but as he says because of internet this is first time many of us are hearing of the deep history, wisdom and knowledge Orthodox holds. Catholicism has a few strange things when you start to understand Orthodox perspective.
When I became a Christian and was looking into different kinds of churches, eventually Roman Catholicism caught my eye, but I learned some basic history, found Orthodoxy and then dropped all interest in the RCC immediately.. The more I learn the more I understand I made the right decision in all of that 😆
I feel the same way, I was raised a catholic, didnt know anything about it or other denominations, turned away from church at 14 to about 24 and now looking into going to closest Orthodox church here in NZD after learning a lot about Christianity. Orthodox just makes sense to me. @@abigail5484
Like what kind of strange thing? I'm pretty sure all of this symbolic understanding is totally available in Catholicism if you dig a little bit. In fact, listening to Pageau made me return to Catholicism (I stopped attending mass since I was a kid) and I feel right at home where I am now.
1:00:14 Miroslav Volf does a great job of unpacking the tension between belonging and distance, and how this plays into both group and individual identity, in _Exclusion and Embrace_. Highly recommended reading for a fuller treatment of that issue!
WoWoW...so interesting.. And truly enjoyable how it was presented...I am in awe...I am also thankful that it was taught in a manner that I could understand all of it...the flow and depth of the conversation kept me interested...and I feel a bit illuminated....well...alot
After reading Dr. Scott Hahn's "A Father WHo Keeps His Promises," I came away with the feeling that God was a serial failure. Every time he tried something, it didn't work. Somewhere in this episode, one of you mentioned how Christ resolves tensions and conflicts that are highlighted in the Hebrew scriptures. That seemed like an interesting approach. E.g., yes, everything fails in the OT, but Christ is able to pull together all the loose ends and tie it all together. This would follow along with the concept of Christ being the answer to the entire law.
49:52 What is "nuclear?" What is a nucleus? The nuclear family is named after the thing which is the central, dynamic part of a larger thing. What needs to be expanded is our understanding of an English word that we use all the time but fail to actually understand.
I haven’t watched the video yet. My father definitely stumbled in life and his stumbling had a huge effect on me. A big concern for me is, how can i address my father’s nakedness without getting cursed. Leaving it unaddressed just feels wrong. I hope this conversation provides some answers
I think it does as you can realize the Protestant idea that it is covering failure is slightly incorrect. You can 'cover' a sin of your Father and still address it's ramifications without running afoul. This is more about usurpation which I doubt you are attempting. The usual interpretation leads to burying wrongs that should likely be addressed circumspectly.
This is why the discussion & rejection of homosexuality needs to be taken more seriously by traditionalist churches and discussed in the level beyond “the material signifier.” Because same-sex couples often do find a level of “spiritual intimacy” through & beyond physical relations which is authentic to them. Staying on the level of the physical signifier because of hedonists will not win over serious-minded homosexuals. It appears - and is - sex-obsessed, when they’re actually interested in deep, enduring relationships. The people marching in pride parades are fairly easily railed against. My neighbors & friends who are in their 20th & 30th decade of same-sex partnerships through wealth & poverty & wealth aren’t going to appreciate anything that doesn’t honestly deal with that reality.
The curse of the fourth son of Ham's third son has to do with the fact that Ham is the second son of Noah, who is the first generation of this new world... It seems to be about marginality and the inability to account for the margin. Noah gets drunk out of his own vine (so basically he's unable to rule his own land, to account for the margin in his own land), and this has the consequence of creating a revolutionary pattern that then spreads as a curse.
51:03 I won't speak for everyone, but, to this day, longer hair on a woman seems to be a sign of youth & vitality, to include fertility & usefulness for reproduction. And it's simply a fact that most younger women wear their hair relatively long, & the older a woman gets, generally speaking, the shorter her hair gets. That seems to be mostly a practical matter; longer hair is more physically demanding to keep up, & is intended to attract men. The less a woman needs to attract men, & the less physically able she is, the less she needs long hair.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought i just heard that certain people think Cain was the son of the devil, and that he isn't...and that Eve didn't sleep with the "serpent"? Following the bible interpreting itsown symbolism we know this original serpent has descendants (Mat 23:33), and that Jesus himself said those descendants are 1. At enmity with God's people (fulfillment of Gen 3:15), 2. Responsible for ALL of the shed blood of the righteous (Same fulfillment), and 3. That responsibility goes back to Cain's murder of Abel. "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure OF YOUR FATHERS. (Patriarchal ancestors) YE SERPENTS, YE GENERATION (
In His humanity, Jesus Christ shares a consubstantial nature with our humanity, and in His divinity, He is consubstantial with the Father. Which aspect holds ontological primacy-His humanity or His divinity? Similarly, when a man engages in a sexual encounter with a woman, does the encounter itself precede the attachment between them, or does it primarily serve as a tangible expression of spiritual connection? If the spiritual has ontological primacy, why is the resurrection of the body the cornerstone of Christianity?
A few people I personally would love to see in conversation with you, Jonathan (again): Peter Kingsnorth James Linday Peter Boghossian Daniel Schmachtenberger Sargon of Akkad (forgot his real name) Rafe Kelly Aarvoll Love your conversations!
Words said in this podcast: homosexual, dad, incest, mother, hot sex, poo poo. Jon, I know of an African TV Pastor who would like to contact you. Lol. Great discussion, God bless both of you and good health to everyone.
God is not the author of confusion and when incest occurs in Genesis (as with Lot and his two daughters)….the Bible describes it. Very simple. Not confusing. Listening to these two sexualize and pervert a simple story (as with Noah’s disrespectful and slanderous child)….is so disturbing.
scripture is plenty full of figures of speech, what in the context , allures you to think that a sexual relationship is the underlying sense of the words. this is what grammar, context history and wider context. read Paul he gives it all the meaning we should desire to have. your needing to learn how to recognize figures of speech. sir
Certainly the church father’s writings would have been translated by now. If the orthodox church didn’t have such a stranglehold on the minds of their parishioners. Technically this is the oldest church in Christendom. How is it that you never got around to it? It’s super suspicious to me why is it that so many of these writings have not been translated??
I don't think you know the first thing about Orthodoxy, it's parishioners, or the status of translation that has already happened and is still happening. Not a single thing.
🤺☦🇷🇺So what, now the historical event in the life of our Patriarch Noah is also an "allegory" to you, "symbolic people"?? Hey Jonathan, is that Fr. De Young is also a Gnostic disguised as an Orthodox like that Fr. Freeman?😂😂😂
This conversation was just amazingly deep. I’m not Orthodox and I’ve never heard of this explanation of the Ham story and Noah’s drunkenness. And the whole relation to the head covering Scriptures in 1 Corinthians. I’m just awestruck. It was so amazing. Thank you, Jonathan and Fr. Stephen .
The Lord of Spirits and Whole Council of God verse by verse Bible study with Fr Steven has been pivotal in my understanding of God's Word. I thank God for him and his gift of teaching us.
@@prettycatlick4373 I have respect for Dr Heiser and I hope God has mercy on his soul. But his work comes from a Prostatant knowledge background so I feel like its limited to that realm. Fr Stephen's work is from the Church fathers and tradition and once you hear and apply those teachings the Bible becomes complete. Its not theory or I think this is what it means its what the Holy Spirit wanted us to know in completeness. Thats why when I listen to what he says it all snaps together in place. I hope and pray Father Stephen continues to enrich our lives with more of this knowledge.
In Vedic religion, man came from the incestuous relationship of Yama, the god of death, and his sister, Yami. In the Upanishads, one of the 3 origin myths speaks about how Prajapati, the supreme creator deity, had sex with his own daughter, for which the other gods had him killed. From the seed that fell to the ground - man came forth. This correlates perfectly with what you say about the pattern of incest as the "scandal of the beginning".
Matthieu’s video with Jordan should be seen with this one. To not marry the stranger who’s to far nor to marry too close, but marrying the stranger who loves you. Cosmic patterns revealed at every level 🤔
It’s also important that he does this while Noah is ‘sleeping’ from ‘drinking’. Noah goes into a “little death”, where Ham then tries to “steal his inheritance”.
It makes me think too of how YHWH puts Adam into a similar kind of sleep and brings forth new life out of him. This is even in the context of being surrounded by “fruit” of the “vine” (trees and vines/bushes are frequently conflated biblically) from which he is invited to frequently partake, and his commission being as a “tender” of this fruit. Ham appears to be a twisted inversion of this: seizing what God would have given in his own good time, and resulting curse experienced by his progeny.
Wow, this answered so many questions for me!!! This discussion was so content rich! I listen to the LOS podcast and I'm going through Genesis with Fr. Stephen now on his Whole Counsel of God podcast. He brings out themes and layers that I didn't even learn in Bible College and never knew existed. Listening to Fr. Stephen teach is like panning for gold and striking it rich with each dip in the river of his knowledge.
Every time I listen to a Symbolic World discussion my mind is blown. 🤯 I have NEVER heard of this interpretation of Noah's drunkenness and Ham's sin, and now it all makes so much sense! The patterns are there!
this is wrong at 52:40 Exousian means Authority, straight and simple. It is used for example when it is said that Jesus preached with authority it certainly does not mean he was under a scrotum, or was a scrotum. Ex = out of. + ousia = substance. Hence to speak with authority is to speak out of the substance of something, or to speak from one's own substance.
I appreciate Fr. Stephens point about the nuclear family. It makes me think about the TV series Derry Girls, set in a working class family in 1990s Derry. One of the recurrent characters is a boring bloke called Uncle Colm. Everyone finds him tedious, but nevertheless they continue to invite him along to family events, because their culture is still traditional enough to regard this intra-familial hospitality as an obligation. The truth is that if Uncle Colm wasn’t invited to family Sunday dinners he wouldn’t be invited to anything at all. No one would ever choose to spend their time with him. Lack of responsibilities and personal freedom is great for the young and fit, enabling them to ‘live their best lives’, but chances are that we will all one day be as boring as Uncle Colm and reliant on family members obligations to us in return.
There’s the visual image of Fr, Stephen that I have concocted - listening to 100s hrs of Whole Counsel etc - so seeing him ‘in the flesh’ is super weird.
I had heard both the interpretation about the uncovering of Noah and the interpretation of women covering their heads that was discussed here from the late Dr. Heiser several years ago. But i really appreciated how it was fleshed out and discussed here, especially in terms of ongoing patterns in the Bible. thank you both!
Its so interesting. I feel so cool when everyone flips out over these thoughts, like, Heiser was yappin about this online way before Lord of Spirits was a thing. Convergence. Fun.
@@prettycatlick4373 Convergence yes...but it's the other way round. The Greek and Ethiopian believers have been versed in this for 2 thousand years. The Russian, Serbian and Romanian believers for nearly 1000 years and of course they all inherited this from the ancient Hebrews which stretch back 4 to 5 thousand years. Father Stephen and Jonathan Pageau are simply translating these ideas into modern english for modern english speaking materialist culture. Fr Stephen even points that out in the video. This is not a knock on Heiser. After all, he managed to reveal these truths through the cacophony of Protestant culture which is, in itself, a miracle.
Man, this was an amazing discussion. I know I've said this on other videos, but this is the exact type of thing I follow this channel for. These seemingly insignificant or obscure things that open an entirely new realm of understanding. I love it. I was raised in crazy evangelical cults, went militantly atheist for a while, delved into occult/esoteric/satanic whatever you want to call it stuff for years...but all the while I had these Bible stories lodged in my brain, in my heart I guess, that I had no idea what to do with, but I KNEW held meaning and truth beyond the mundane, materialistic way they were taught to me. I guess that's my weird, convoluted way to say thank you. Seriously, thank you. There really aren't enough or adequate words to describe how much this channel has helped me. It's been a life saver. ps If I can ever get Sundays off work, I'm going to start attending our local Orthodox temple. I don't know if I have it in me to fully convert or whatever, I really don't know. I just know its been steady on my mind for years now and I'm trying to get my boss to change my schedule.
Depending on the size if the Orthodox church, they may have Saturday evening services (the evening part of the daily service that finishes with liturgy Sunday morning) or occasional weekday services for specific feasts, in case that works with your schedule
@@carolinef9886 I'm definitely going to try to hit some of the holiday services if my schedule isn't changed by then. But I'm pushing for Sunday/Monday off, cuz I've been working weekends my whole life.
This was a fascinating conversation, but if "uncovering the nakedness of your father" means what you say it means, why did Shem and Japheth walk backwards into the tent to cover Noah? Also, early on it sounded as if you were going to speak about "egregors." Have you ever covered that topic?
It doesn’t mean that. The Bible is not “secretive” about describing incest if it occurs. One example is Lot and his daughters. There’s no ‘hidden message “. The Bible simply describes what occurred. This man has a “sexual “ explanation for almost everything in the Bible and it’s actually a little weird
I've heard about this concept before on Dr. Heiser's podcast (Naked Bible: Episode 159). It makes all the sense in the world, fits so many pieces into the puzzle, and I'm so thankful that Fr. Stephen is on the same track. ❤️🔥
Bit too much speculation guys. It's clear that there a 2 main opposing agendas in the bible. The farmer kings how built cities and inbred, and the nomadic herdsmen who interbred with different tribes. This is first illustrated by the story of Cain and Abel. These 2 groups came into regular conflict with the Jew being the herdsmen Sheppards and the Cainites being the farmer city buiders. The overall benefits of both is that you get genetic mixture through the nomads and cultural mixture and hierarchy through the establishment of cities . As illustrated in the Tower of Babel story. The symbols of ranking were called garments which is where we get the concept of nakedness. And yes it was also sexual union that happened with the serpent in the garden. Cain was the offspring of the serpent but not Abel. The garments of skin was snakeskin.
Compensating (covering) for the father’s deficiencies (nakedness) shows up a few times in scripture (like Tobias healing his father Tobit’s blindness) - also appears in the holy grail story re: redeeming the maimed king (who’s Galahad’s ancestor)
What is this about a word that is translated as symbol of authority and means "scrotum". Either I am missing something or Fr. Stephen is confusing the word "ἀρχήν" with "oρχεις". These words are not related but in any case the word in 1 Corinthians 11:10 is ἐξουσίαν (exousian). What are we talking about exactly?
You probably won’t get a notification for this reply (it seems the algo has taken a disliking to me). However, on the off-chance that you do see this, I recommend tracking down the article, “Head Coverings in Worship: Why Female Hair Is a Testicle” by Richard Beck. And also, “Does περιβόλαιον Mean ‘Testicle’ in 1 Corinthians 11:15?” by Mark Goodacre. I believe this is what what Fr. Stephen De Young is referring to.
@@EmilyTodicescu thank you Emily. I actually found that article after someone else suggested it. That might be it actually. Seems to me a silly, out there, speculation. Certainly to say that περιβόλαιον is always the word for testicle in Greek seems completely wrong. It means something that is around something else. That is its meaning and hence the translation as a covering. But also… Fr. Stephen is saying that this was the term for “symbol of authority” which is nothing to do with περιβόλαιον anyway. That would be the word έξουσίαν.
He doesn’t speak Greek and in fact he has a very serious loathing towards Greek speaking people. I suspect this is why. This man sexualizes almost evert thing in the Bible and his very odd giggling as he describes these weird sex acts is creepy. He always says “it’s in the Greek “ but …..he doesn’t speak Greek and he doesn’t like the people of Greece
Michael Heiser talks about this too, how Canaan and all his descendants are cursed because he’s the product of Ham and his own mother whom he took advantage of while Noah was drunk making Canaan an incestuous unholy offspring. And how it’s similar to what Absolom did to David by taking all his concubines and wives to usurp the kingship. Talks about the hair this too, being a fecundity thing. Heiser really was in his scholarship an almost identical analog to Fr Stephen but he was an evangelical which I’ve always thought was strange because almost everything he talked about was Orthodox, not things that evangelicals even believe.
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The other other teacher I've heard teach the truth about the hair is the late Dr. Michael Heiser. Good job! I didn't hear you connect the Noah/Ham episode with Leviticus teaching on exposing the Father's nakedness.
Nah, you don’t need a nuclear family, just little old-fashioned relationships……like the neighbour without children, who cared for a child, whose parents couldn’t provide……
This story may also have an apocalyptic interpretation when considered in a truly analogical way. The vine is a symbol of the Church throughout Sacred Scripture. If Noah represents Christ (the only righteous man) he can poetically be said to be drunken on the wine of the Church when the Church pours out nonsense about Christ and His Gospel. The naked Noah may represent Christ stripped of His divinity by His apostate Church. Ham may represent the nominal christians who mock Christ by their heresies and laugh at Apostolic doctrines. The Brothers may represent faithful christians who try to restore the integrity of the faith at the end of the age by going back to the Apostolic testimony of the New Testament. Thus, instead of walking forward, they go backward to reclothe Christ with His divinity. The fruit (child) of Ham's mockery is disinheritance from the family of Noah (Christ), as all apostates fall from bond of Faith.
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Eastern religions seem to accept the problem of getting swallowed up when uniting with something/someone that’s too far. The problem of being fully united to God without losing your individual personality is solved in the person of Christ. Can there be a more paradoxical union wich does not obliterate those who are unified but also does not compromise the identity achieved? This is the heart of Christology.The creator becomes a creature. Life itself becomes death. The furthest extremes can coexist in God Himself.
Time 20:43 - I don't understand what you are trying to teach here. As Ham has two other brothers that are older than Canaan so why would you think that Ham thought that his child Canaan would have authority over Shem and Japheth? What power does the mother hold for Ham to think this? It was Noah that found grace in the sight of God. Not his wife.
Appreciated this though with passages that are puzzling I either have an insight or bracket it. Like I’m fine if it really just was a material description of what happened and just assumed it was included and passed down to show that Noah was still a sinner but nonetheless God chose him and blessed his lineage by sparing them. Like he was just the best God had lol.
Interesting conversation, but the continued giggling makes it seem as though the whole thing is a joke. Jonathan, thank you for taking the scriptures seriously. Maybe the other pastor was just nervous.
This discussion at 33:59 makes me wonder if there is a connection between the scandal of beginning and the act of creation being an act of cutting or discernment and naming. It seems like a move from the one to the many involves an incestuous connotation because it comes from itself in a way.
This is also integrating what I learned in seminary when I was studying for my Masters in Theology. Not in conflict with what I learned but rather ties together and deepens what I learned. 2nd time listening.🙏 Thank you!!
Thank you. Shalom. I live in Israel.. i watched my father watching porn and i spent my entire childhood fantasizing about it. i hate my life. but only recently i don't wish to kill myself.
That's horrible, I am sorry that happened to you! You are valuable and loved, please don't hate yourself. Pray to God for help and read the Bible. I am helped everyday by God's grace. Jesus of Nazareth is our savior. God bless you 🕊
Can someone help me out here? At 52:00 Fr. Steven talks bout St. Paul using a word for "scrotum" in 1 Corinthians 11verse 10. But when I tried to look it up, all I'm seeing at least in the Textus Receptus is the Greek word "exousia." Is there another Greek new testament manuscipt that has the word here that Fr. Steven is talking about?
