If DPS grabs aggro, it is now a competitive sport. The tank and the DPS are now in direct competition in seeing who can run around the farthest in the dungeon. Extra points if your path is confusing as possible.
would also say that it would be good to point out that if you have any ranged/casters in the party, then LB1 on mobs makes the dungeon go a lot faster than waiting for LB2 when the last boss is at 2.5% HP.
@@jamestarkington809 your LB changes depending on a few things, but it behaves the same way on the class you're on. 4-man: 1 bar 8-man: 2 bar Fighting a boss: +1 bar NIN lb is just single target damage, so if it's unused otherwise then just go for boss damage. Ranged/caster DPS can do AOE limit break and clear mobs faster.
It takes me 5 seconds to be considerate and drop a "Big Pulls ?" in the party chat. Depending on if I'm tanking, if there's no response, I go do my standard game which is usually pulling 2 packs of mobs. If they say anything else, I oblige. Same for healer, nothing, I just pop Regen on them and spam my AoE/cards until the need for healing presents itself. If they want big ass pulls, I'll focus on healing while still trying to DPS whenever I can. From my point of view, dungeons aren't on the level of Savage content and other end game raids where you need to pull your weight or get the first world clear, I have absolutely no trouble changing my pace if it helps some people out. And I understand speerunning dungeons for EXP/Tomestones but in my opinion, if you're speedrunning this hard, you're more aiming toward burning out than whatever result your hoping for.
I'm reminded recently of when me and my friends had a tank in Dohn Meg who did big pulls, and popped exactly 1 mitigation the entire dungeon. It was our first time and I was a white mage. I was burning through all my OGDCs and our red mage was helping to heal, and he was still dying.
imagine using your cool downs as a tank, I've got save them for the boss silly, but even then the healers tend to heal me to full anyway so no need i guess.
Another tip I'd recommend for healers is to throw a regen or shield on the tank as they run through the dungeon gathering mobs for the big nuke. I can't tell you how many times I've made it to the end of the pull with next to no health because the healer did nothing while we were running through collecting adds. Now this will give the healer agro for a short while until the tank hits the enemies. This leads in to my second tip stay glued to your tank and match their pace as they travel through the dungeon. The healer is useless unless they're in range dps/stun or heal as the case requires and additionally being close to the tank means that they don't have to run far to take agro back when the regen agro's during the pull. And one last piece of advice for WHMs when dealing with DRKs and GNBs in particular. Never bene first. At any time they could pop that invun and make you waste that CD. To a certain extent it's a psychological game of chicken that you don't want to lose.
Also for tanks with a whm in the party. Save most of your cds for after the first few gcds from whm spamming holy. Cds won't do anything if the monsters are stunned and can't hit you
As a tank if you pop regen on me while I'm doing a wall to wall pull I am not going to consider myself responsible if your dumb carcass gets mauled, to add if you run ahead of me and get mobs attention the fault is on you. Now given my common strat for wall to wall as a pld is to sprint prior to first engagement to get 20 sec sprint, roughly aoe first set no need to be perfect, get to next set aoe and if I have a third set run far enough to get their attention and clemency, normally worst case scenario I only have 1 mob not agroed to me, usually an add that got bursted by a dps but if people ran ahead of me which usually rarely happens since my pace is pretty fast I might be missing more adds which isn't a problem since they don't show up on my agro list so it's not my problem XD.
It's not like it's even hard to grab aggro from the prepull regen, one AoE and done, this is not stormblood or before when you had to manage your stances.
@@ladydarkangelyukiYou sound like one of those you "pull it you tank it" Clemency should never be part of a pull plan. Shit happens but unless the healer is dead clemency doesn't exist. And regen agro takes like one aoe to rip off the healer.
@@Daniele-PierreDuLac clemency is useful for generating enmity in pack pull and there is nothing wrong with using it in that setting, I'm not using it for healing moreso to generate enmity on all active target, as for the you pull it you tank it yes and no, do mind I'm pulling everything in the first place so there should not be anything to pull in the first place, but I won't run after stray mobs, if a non tank as a stray mob on them it's up to them to bait it into the pack where I'll hit it and take it off them, if they kite the add around it's they're mistake not mine, which again back to my point on clemency should not happen because clemency would give me enough of a enmity lead that only a burst dps or the mob not being on my enmity list would cause the mob to not be on me.
@@oldmanjenkinsgaming3555 It if fun when I have something to do, but it's sad when tank continuous to pull mobs when they're at 10% HP and I already used up all my mana on their butts xD
I have a macro set for tanks that asked the party what size pulls they are comfortable with. Also have a healer macro that tells the tank the pull as large as they are comfortable with.
One thing I've never understood: What's wrong with just asking the party "Hey, are big pulls OK with everyone?" at the beginning of the dungeon? I've gotten some seriously mixed responses from people when I do that.
I ALWAYS ask If I'm a tank it's dead silent and the healer often can't handle it and they only speak up after a wipe If I'm a healer and ask the tank to pull big they say jack shit, either pull big or they pull small anyways. Rescuing them into more mobs make them cry like babies 'dont pull for me its my job hurr huuuurrr'. You can't win
To be fair, rescuing aka forcing a tank into a large groups when they only single pull is a very asshole thing to do. They could be new and learning it, heck even gauging the party's ability, dps can be shit which make big pulls a nightmare too y'know. If you want them pull big say it, if they dont answer well shit, just go a long, dont be an ass about it. You're not the center of the universe. If I was the tank I'd just drop my stance and do nothing if im "rescued" into groups because the healer's head is stuck in their butt. But again if I tank I'd just let the party know whether I'd pull small or big. There were reddit posts about it iirc, and pretty much everyone agree that it's a very shitty thing to do. Rant over, peace! No hard feelings.
You can ask, but outside of leveling roulette my perspective is I don't need to ask you should be geared and you should have the tools necessary for it, if I do expert roulette I'll wall to wall no questions. leveling is the black sheep of the bunch since people can be severely under geared and if doing an arr dungeon even lack aoe skills period.
@@arzaki460 It's so annoying when I put down my Asylum and then the tank just run off I think they should just change Asylum to just be a orange circle on the floor that way people will actually stand in it.
So when I first started the tank did a huge pull on Satasha and I thought the tank was insane and I really struggled as a first time healer in a dungeon. Now a couple months in I’m much more “You call that a pull? Get back in there tank!” Always always ask your team if they can handle the big pulls 😊
As a tank main, I hate when I'm playing another role and see all the tanks that just suck at it...and when I tell them what to do better they usually flip at me as since I'm not the tank I got no idea and should shut up 🤣 There usually is no middle ground with tanks...they are either really good, or really bad and the really bad ones seem to have the most attitude... My most hated scenario is bad tanks though, that feel like giving advice to other players...like one tank that complained to the WHM to not Regen him, only on bosses...told the WHM to not listen to him, a good tank doesn't just pull one mob in a pack, but grabs aggro on all while running and appreciate Regen as to not be at 20% when they stop to dps...tanks response "I got all 80s, I know what I'm doing"...clesrly he didn't...worst players in the game...
it's usually the bad players you will get more negative reactions from, since better players will usually be open to feedback on how to improve their play
Agreed but in my experience the best way to deal with bad/new tanks is to let them make mistakes, wait for disaster and give a short tip to avoid it, for example with cool downs simply say "pop rampart please" or if mobs are out of control say "use *aoe skill* please" keep it short and on the point don't turn it into a conversation, if they keep making the same mistake simply keep repeating the same thing unless they want clarification, usually if they ask for clarification it means they're open to advice otherwise keep it short.
oh i don't consider new players to be "bad players", if you're new it's only normal you have stuff that you just don't know about. it's the people that have played this game for a while that don't *want* to improve that i was referring to
@@IlyaDalamiq the common denominator between new players and bad players is the "Making mistakes" part, both become better by learning it's just a bad player has a longer history compared to a new one.
As someone who heals a good majority of the time, I don't see the point in wall pulling in leveling dungeons. Healers and Tanks just do NOT have enough resources to be able to properly pull that kinda stuff off. *Especially* in Sastasha! Seriously people, knock it off! You can't do that in there!
They can do larger pulls than people think in those early dungeons. The only reason not to would be because your dps don't have aoes, which means your only aoe in the party is from the tank. Other than that, if you have a caster or ranged, that alone is the point. I mean, I'm not going to pretend that you have to heal that much in those early dungeons if you don't pull hard.
Many people are too nervous to even try big pulls when it comes to healers and tanks. That’s why I do a big pull when I tank without asking if it’s okay because I know I can survive long enough to get the heals I need, and it shows the healer that they can in fact do big pulls.
As someone who recently started healing (SCH) I definitely don’t mind doing bigger pulls to push myself to be a better healer. Not to mention, Art of War makes mobs SO EASY lol
I do exactly what you do when I run tank in DRs. Big pull to check what kinda group I'm running with. Definitely seems to be the best route to test the waters.
it's sort of a joint effort isn't it? That being said, I usually commend the healer when I'm tanking, otherwise I just commend the first person on the list which is usually the tank
M K7001 Yes it’s joint effort. From my experience as I play all roles including healers, tanks, and DPSs, I receive more recommendation significantly when I play tank. I usually give recommendation to DPS since they tend to get none.
@@earmar-finalfantasyxivthai4397 I assume most people have tank as the first on the list so... I will commend dps as tank sometimes if I see them use pelaton/feint or something. Or if someone is just nice lol
100% better on a trash mob. Also has the added benefit of draining your limit break so that you can start building it up again and possibly use a second one depending on how long the dungeon is.
in my experience most dps are shy about using lb even in a full party setting, I've used range lb when all my other dps mates were melee to damage boss, i've trolled lb as tank when boss is at 3% and we've been sitting on lb for a minute.
"I was able to do it with another group" is not an excuse. Tank's job in dungeon is to get a sense of the current party's DPS and heal output and adjust accordingly. A tank who keeps pulling despite party wipes is failing to tank properly. As for DPS and Healers forcing tanks to pull more, most of the times, if the tank is good they know pulling more won't work, and if the tank is bad, they won't manage their cooldowns properly anyways so that's also a gamble. Complaining about bad tanks won't fix anything. Whining and berating them will only make them not touch tanks again. If you don't like the chances of duty finder assigning you a bad tank, the only remedy is to become a tank yourself.
@metalfaust19 should be able to, but can't, so you adjust. Pull less since you know healer can't keep up. As you said, skills differ from people even if the kit is identical. It's the tank' job to see that.
Most of 5.x i've been running my roulette as a healer tho my main is tank. By the time i say hello in chat, pop my food the tank is already gone like a bat out of hell. Now the Smart ones at least notice the healer is not there and pop Hollowed or what have you so no big deal. but more often then not the dumb ass is ded and starting to cry. never mind most party finder tanks seem to either not use a single cool down or pop all of them at once. i do not even bother saying any thing anymore as we know how that breed of tank will respond. Just to toss my thoughts in on the matter. at least waiting till you "the tank" see everyone on the move or getting a Adlo, Divine Benison, or what have you make the goal of speed run much easier for everyone. The Second thing i do is before pulling the boss waiting that extra second or so for everyone to step in the boss area to pull. Most times this is only maybe a second or so. this allows everyone to get in on all that sweet sweet Raid Buffs buffs the DPS offer now. when the tank just runs i n full blast and pulls while every one is still spiriting to catch up. I also i do the first pull as a big on thing to see how the group DPS and heals stack up.Personalty when i run a current dungeon I always ask and let the healer choose of they want to do speed pulls or a chill run letting them decide.
at 72(?) you have a 3 part aoe combo on drg, so it's definitely the way to go for most jobs you want 3 or more when choosing to aoe, rather then single target, but it's a little bit different depending on the job
I think that with C. Torment extending life of the dragon it's still better and I would agree MNK DRG and...MCH have very poor aoe at 50 where you can debate 2/3 target damage but at 60-80 it should pretty much be go to for most jobs I can think of. I could be misrembering certain skill levels but its pretty general.
my experience with a few jobs is that the aoes skills don't help build certain resources so if you have to build them up you are forced to start out with single target and then swap to aoe, for example sam 2 buffs to activate them you need to single target and after they are active they get refresh with aoe skills "I believe" Mch doesn't build battery from any aoe, bard songs are dot reliant so you spend a fair amount of time at the start placing dots all around and that's all I can think of.
@@ladydarkangelyuki MCH indeed doesn't build battery from any of its AoE options (which is really just Spread Shot, Ricochet, Auto Crossbow via Overheat, and Bioblaster since you can't really stay still for Flamethrower to be effective), so I tend to ST the scariest mob of the pull while weaving my cooldown AoEs in when I can. I often can get my battery gauge full before the boss encounters so I'll have that cooldown for the opener, or maybe even drop it during a mob pull if there's something particularly chunky (like the King during Grand Cosmos). For early dungeons you don't have to worry about battery as much though.
I do the exact same thing when I'm playing a tank, I like to do a big pull first and see how the healer handles it and how long it takes for the mobs to die. Sometimes when I'm just entering a dungeon as a tank or heals I'll check the healer or tank's gear before anything, depending how I'm feeling. One thing I'd like to add and I think you were alluding to this is that for some DPS they also have the ability to stun and interrupt which can be particularly helpful for stopping AOE's and preventing unnecessary movement, meaning dealing more damage. Tanks and healers have this as well but I think they're useful especially when it comes to bigger pulls where they may be on cooldown
My tanking mentality: GOTTA GO FAST. Also, always do randoms as a paladin so you don't actually need a healer. They can't keep up with your speed running? *No problem!*
I love you and your channel. I am a player that loves big/wall2wall pulls. I often do those even on lower levels and if i see the healer struggling i lower the amount and go slower
I usually check my parties gear before doing pulls and adjust accordingly if I see the healer is a struggling with MP or if the mobs are dying too slow. The only times I see anyone hating big pulls are just the new players who don't have great gear but if I'm with people who a over geared for the dungeon then I'm just running in XD
tbh I would've mentioned that amr's lenght is completely useless against casters since it can only proc on melee strikes, meaning that in group with casters or magic autoattack dealers you may want to use another CD on top of it
the problem we get now days when you pull big pull is when you get a healer who only dose dps 100% of the time and once the tank's cool downs are used the healer will still dps resulting in a wipe, you give them an advice and they tell you " you dont pay my sub' and just rage quit
Do invisible aggro pull distances count as walls? As Lynx puts it, enemies have ‘Destiny AI’. This is especially true in low-level dungeons, as those are the only dungeons I can do.
Ya know, I'm reading all of these responses of how people handle big pulls from both Tank perspective and Healer perspective and its clearly a divide and miscommunication on all sides. Like if it takes you all to have to hope the other days something or make macros to tell how you want to play the game, then maybe y'all should play it like it's meant to be played and stop attempting to rush through everything and enjoy what Square made for y'all. Jeez.
I would add that ppl have to consider the difference between leveling dungeons and tomes farming dungeons.. leveling were not actually designed for wall to wall pulls and mobs hit harder compared to tome farming (50/60/70/80) that were designed for speedrun farming
The big pull is very cool, but not just anyhow. A tank no brain is no use at all. It is of course very important that the tank avoids as much as possible the aoe. It is to be determined by the skill of the healer and the dps. If the heal is not able to fix it and I have burnt all my CDs, I'll forget about it for the next packs or I'll slow down. Same for low dps party. And the same for the tanks that are unable to manage their CDs over time, like some that slams in one time... In general for the last 4 packs of Anamnesis Anyder, I don't need my invulnerability CD, if I manage it well or the party manages it correctly.
Im gettin better at using reprisal and arms length. I also started using hallow ground on my first big pull so it can cool down fo another use later. Also using stun ability lol. Hopefully HW skills will be fun to use. Looking forward to more skills for my pld
On that note also remember that clemency great for emergencies it is also a big dps loss when it's not needed since it uses mp that could have been used on holy spirits/circles and you miss out on that sweet 50% potency boost from requiescat if you have less than 80% of your max mp. All on top of using gcd's on healing instead of damage.
"WhY dOnT yOu JuSt AsK?!" Maybe because you FUCKING LEVEL 80 and should know how to tank by now. Literally pull everything and activate 2 defensive cooldowns. This is not hard. Healers are so stacked with healing skills they are designed from the ground up to keep you up with nothing other than an MP regen skill and Cure 2...with their eyes closed. Hell being underleveled actually makes healers feel like an actual class.
when you big pulls but the healer is just spamming cure2 and one of the dps is only using single target rotation. Most of the time when I ask them to use aoe, they either ignore me and doing the same thing or say something like "you don't pay my sub", "I know what I'm doing", "stfu". Worstly, they could be a 3-man group and just vote kick you. Cuz it happens a lot so I know now that is just a waste of time to argue with them, so every time this happened, I just leave the dungeon. These even happens in end game dungeon. I don't understand how did they get to lv80 and not knowing these stuff. The community are way way way too nice and foster these kind of players. You can't say a single bad words to them. Sometimes they are not even bad words but just an advice. yet those bad players will think we are humiliating them and start attacking us. The comment I see in every game that irritating me the most is "it's just a game"
There are no "Big Pull`s" in this Game.. these are just the normal Pull's (when ur experienced) if for example the Tank or the Healer are not so experienced in the Dungeon/with their Class, ok, but other than that, it's just the normal way to go, cuz there is literaly no Challange within Dungeons other than playin ur class medium. U dont even have to be realy good so... jeah..
Yeah, but once you've done one big pull you've done them all, even if it's your first time in a dungeon. Bardam's and Holminster being the notable exceptions.
@@irogt thats what im say'n. that's why i think there are no real big pulls in the game. since u just pull everything, watch for some cd's and burn the pack down (wich tbh isnt that much of a hasstle these days anyway)
When you play with random people expect random results. At the end of the day this is still forcing a playstyle onto someone else. While I do big pulls and it doesn't bother me I just don't see this ever ending. I know how to fix it, but I don't want the playerbase to crucify me so I'm not going to share it openly.
