+1 for this video suggestion. Also how to compare potential newbikes on a geometry chart when replacing an older bike to mimic the older bike's fit on a newer one.
Love the honesty, which is becoming increasingly hard to come by in the world of cycling. Agree with a lot of these - there's so much marketing jarg and over-engeneered nonsense that's simply not needed. A steel disc brake bike with decent clearance for larger tyres is the perfect bike because it can do the vast majority of things for the vast majority.
The bike sizing thing is so true. I'm 195cm, which puts me in the top 1% of the UK population for height, yet I ride a large Canyon frame. There are two sizes above that!
Modern geometry. Look a Beryl Burtons bike fit. Long and low and still holds records. I'm 6.1 and ride 60cm with 58 top. 90mm stem. Works perfectly as drop to bars not huge. Nowadays I would need, " endurance geometry ". . Progress. Na
Canyons tend to run really big. I'm 178cm and Canyon would suggest a small on their road and gravel frames, most road/gravel sizing guides for other brands would have me on a 56cm frame. On MTB frames I usually ride a large (my sweet spot on MTB reach is 470-480mm), a size L Strive is over 500mm reach
@@JanKowalski-ux6nt It depends! Only you know how long your legs, torso and arms are. Only you know your comfortable cycling positions. Best option get a bike fit, if you cannot do that try them out, if you cannot try a specific bike out try the nearest you can in terms of geometry.
I have a Brooks B17 Special on my touring bike the bars are level with the seat and its bliss, and Brooks C17 curve (rubber) on my gravel bike and it just works .
I agree about those rear suspension. Systems built into the frame - they look like a problem waiting to happen. However, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the Redshift shockstop post. The mk1 version with the springs is very easily tunable, and it irons out the more serious bumps that my 35mm tyres don't. Without any noticeable bobbing. It's great for gravel and the crap, badly cracked concrete roads i ride. If I ever wanted to race, I could pull it off and stick on a lighter regular post. Seems like the perfect compromise to me. Cheers
I think part of the issue with the way rear suspension has been incorporated into road frames (and also some gravel, like that Diverge STR), is that the suspension operates on a parallel axis to the frame, as opposed to perpendicular like suspension on mtbs. Seatposts operate perpendicular, and a couple have no rearward deflection at all. It still changes your fit, but at such a small drop its probably not really a major impact. Flexing 20-30mm rearward though not only changes knee position in relation to pedals, but also stretches you away from the cockpit. Seems so sketch to me.
The thing with Brooks **leather** saddles is that they've got incredibly short rails, and were designed back in the time when angles were more slack, and all seatposts had setback. If your bike has steep angles, and you want a very specific seatpost, you better know that the sizing and fit is bang-on. If you have a bike, where all that is bang-on, you will be quite happy with your durable flexy saddle, even for all day riding, but it can easily go either way. When you go to the Cambrium rubber saddles, you've got a lot more room for adjustment, but you better hope the shape and flex of them is exactly what you like.
The Specialized Aethos costs 5.200 Euro for the Comp version with a 105. The S-Works version costs around 15.000. How could this even remotely be considered a "bike for the people" in the first place?
saying the SL7 is only for pro / competition also surprised me, it sure is a performance bike, but is quite versatile and a great allrounder, i know a lot of "amateurs" who chose a SL7 rather than two different bikes
I think he means that the aethos isn't meant for racers. It's just for people who enjoy riding bikes, albeit quite wealthy people. And by the way, the Aethos with geometry for normal people has already been made, it's called the Crux. Just put some high-ish gears on it and tyres that aren't too chunky and Bob's your uncle.
I spent hundreds of dollars on modern scientifically designed ergonomic saddles. Then I bought a Brooks team pro. It outlived six bikes. I'll never go back to ergo
I would love to see you address the issue of crank length. Generally I find crank length to be excessive on almost every bike. It's rare to find anything below 170 mm except on S or XS frames.
Agree about frame sizing. Absolutely crucial to try before you buy. Also, aside from bike frames, cycling clothing manufacturers need to address their flawed sizing structures too. They seem to assume that height is somehow proportional to how unfit you are. That the taller you are, the fatter you must therefore be. Nightmare for people 6ft 2" + who have the physique of a healthy eating regular cyclist. To me that just seems like a flawed and somewhat paradoxical logic in sizing structure. I'm sure Jimmy will have opinions on this but for us tall skinny guys it's kind of frustrating. The amount of money I've wasted on kit over the years bears not thinking about.
It goes the other way too. I'm of similar lenght but lift weights, so my chest is XXXXXL according to manufacturers from Italy. And XL when buying Norwegian clothing. The sizing is all over the place and there don't seem to be any standards.
Have you tried Kalas kit? Their sizing is not S, M, L etc but is numbered 3, 4, 5 etc which is a little bit odd. But they also have a longer "plus" size - so 3+, 4+ and so on. Same sizing, just a bit longer for taller riders.
Even worse is when looking for a skinsuit. I am 178cm and have proportionally long legs relative to my torso, but weigh 60kg (not so uncommon for a decently fit climber I would say). So basically I have to buy a S or XS so that the jersey fits, but then I would have the legs that would fit a regular 160cm rider...
The Trek VCLS handlebar being long reach makes so much sense! I've a 58 Trek and I get bad neck and shoulder pain, feel like I've to stretch too far. Other similar sizes frames I had no such issue.
56 Trek for me came with a 7degree 100 stem and those bars with 93 reach. Put a 6degree 90 stem on ages ago and it's a bit better. Next time my bar tape or brake bleed is due I'm definitely swapping down to an 80 or 70 bar. Gravel bikes do generally spec 70s these days (except Trek lol) but I've still got a pretty long torso and I ride drops a lot so I'm leaning towards the 80.
Trek road frames are all really short though, they’re making them back up to the usual length with a longer reach handlebar. You’re probably just on the wrong size bike.
Yeah what do I know? I'm riding a Cambium C15 carved on my SS drop bar bike, zero comfort issues, and I never think about the saddle, which of course is exactly what you want.
Stack and reach has evolved into every bike but makes more sense with mountain bikes where it came from . Once you stand on the pedals and the seat is out of the way the saddle and seat tube angle have no relevance.
Great points! It’s taken me 50 years as an avid recreational cyclist to figure out what makes one bike fit and be fast and fun and others to just never feel right. More money does not mean a better fit and more speed. Your point about if you need flat bars on your gravel bike, you’re probably on the wrong bike, is spot on.
All right James thank so much you for the common sense, science backed, and experience you bring to bikes and bike fitting. Please please help us in the states that are having difficulty finding a bike fitter. Most here use the Retul and of course are in Specilized shops or trek shops. Help us to be able to look at a bike fitter online and make an educated decision. I have watched all of your videos, and have been educated thank you. How does someone like me look a website and make a decision? These fitters are at least 1 hour and several hours away and $400. I’m riding an American road bike Klein stage 1997 that I know is too big, but causes minor issues on 1 to 2 hour rides. I would like to get a bike that is properly sized. Thanks and I love your channel. Dwight, from Louisiana
Specialized does a really good job of marketing the Retul system, that why many people think it's their only option. But there are plenty of fitter in the US that are in line with James [ who actually thinks logically about fit] Check out ClinicalBikeFit.com
Love these videos; thanks James and Francis. I too would like to see a fitting that then translates to a geometry table. I have several bikes (touring, gravel, road), and have had several bike fittings, but couldn’t tell you anything about what geometry fits me for any of my bikes.
Hi you're right about specialized shoes. Now you say it, this summer I wore specialized shoes for 9 days all day long for an ultra cycling event and got a callus on one of my external toes (the one usually resting upfront.
It Doesn't matter how steep seat tube angle is. Horizontal distance between saddle and BB is determined by length of legs and feet. Slacker angle is negated with seatpost without setback and vice versa. Thus you can simply orientate by stack and reach. Everything other can be compansated with stem and handlebars.
How mental is frame size scaling "geometry" standard that assumes the same wheel size for a 2 m. guy to a 1,60 m. so the distorted mass distribution (wheels + extra frame) that is forced to load relatively shorter people affects the overall motion and body position, are we so dumb or is that in more than a century nobody really cared that much about cycling industry?
With you all the way until 13:28. In USA, the mean clothing size is XL and the range to cover 90+ % of the population is Medium through XXXL. Bike sizes of small fitting the smallest 25 % of population, medium fitting middle 50 %, and large or xtra large fitting top 25 % makes more sense than clothing sizes.
Now I know why my feet started hurting after moving to Specialized shoes. Not something I noticed straight away, but after a few months of increased fitness and power my feet started killing me. I wish this was something that was stated upfront when buying the shoes.
I'm glad I seen this video cause I have a pair that I use for shopping runs and found that they feel a bit off while riding. I was thinking about getting a new pair for my normal rides, but now I won't.
At the beginning of the season I bought a specialized SL7 shoe, got them snug for racing crits. I love them and they feel super stiff. Well a couple months later and now I probably have a bunion (which can only be corrected by surgery... awesome!) forming under my pinky toe knuckle joint. So now I'm back to riding my 5 year old shimano shoes.
Yes its true, I learned a lot from Sir. James now riding my RB for 100 k no body pain specialy my nee.... Thanks for the technique...Sir. James your a badass teacher 😊😊😊❤.
So there was a guy at Unbound this weekend on a hardtail MTB with super wide bars that he had grafted drop bar ends onto. The whole rig was literally 3ft wide. Would have snapped a pic but I was too tired from scraping mud and hike a biking
So I ride a Roubaix and an Aethos, both set up by a professional bike fitter and in my experience the Aethos is by far the more comfortable bike to ride so not sure what your talking about.
Just rebuilt my left 20 year old Campy Centaur Ergoshifter, which can be almost completely taken apart. Didn't really have to as it was working ok. I just wanted to clean it up and regrease it to make shifting a bit smoother and perhaps extend its life a bit. I'm debating whether to do the same on the right one as I did this some years ago. I probably will, because, well, I can. Takes all of 30-60 minutes to take apart, clean, regrease and rebuild, IF you know what you're doing. If not, it'll take the better part of a day, most of it spent figuring out how they come apart and fit back together. My point is, better than Shimano in this respect.
Re the Aethos: I think the bike you are really asking for is the Crux. It has all the features of the Aethos but with the Allroad/endurance geometry most people really need and want.
Last year I nearly went nuts trying to figure out which size of each bike I was considering I needed to look for. When you're trying to buy a bike and you go through websites of stores in your location its a madhouse really. Each time you have to go to each manufacturers website and check their size charts. I made the right decision in the end and managed to get the new bike to fit me nicely I believe by nothing more than getting a new stem 10 mm shorter. But the way manufacturers size their bikes and the way bike stores present this sizing info is very confusing.
I'm currently converting my gravel bike to a commuter/city bike by throwing on a riser flat bar. Shorter reach, more upright position... I'm stoked about it!
@@markusseppala6547 yeah, bullhorns are a nice option for sure. With the setup I'm going to have, I'll have almost no pressure on the hands, so I think it'll be smooth as a short trip inner city kind of bike.
I have a hybrid so it already came with flat bars, but I put on wider Mtb bars on it a few years ago and love it . I use this bike for about everything, although I did find that gravel tires just can't take the abuse that a Mtb tire can, so I gave up on ripping it on Mtb trails.
100% with you on those oversized steerers; as with internal routing on STEMS (with say, ORBEA) makes adjusting fit at any shop not selling Giant (etc.) and we know cyclists might travel!
Chapter about flat bars! I wish I had seen it before I bought my current mountain bike just because of its looks and I ride it exclusively in the city on roads. Numbness, pins and needles, wrist pain - I get all of that every single ride and it made me begin question if I have the right bike for my case...thanks for confirming I indeed have a wrong bike! Can't wait to get a gravel bike and, hopefully, have better riding experience.
That's nothing to do with the flat bars. He was specifically talking about flat bars on gravel bikes (which have geometry suited to drops). If you've got hand issues work out what they are before dropping more cash on a different bike...
I have Tourney shifters on 3 of my vintage 7 speed bicycles and I like them way over the old RSX shifters because RSX has no trim function on them. I found Tourney shifters easy to install and set up. Yes, they are not as good as the regular shifters but I don't race anymore since I am a senior rider and I usually spend almost 100% of my time on the hoods when riding.
Tourney might not be the most sophisticated stuff, but in its limits (means no extreme use) it works not that bad. Even if it don't cost much money it's still functioning equipment.
I use the long reach 3t handlebars because allow enough space for my hands to rest comfortably and not cause numbness like shorter reach bars I have relative large hands, the shape of the lever housing and 25+ years of being a truck mechanic which takes a toll on your hands with all the hammering, wrench turning and holding onto impact guns
I think stack and reach are excellent numbers to look at in mountainbikes, where the handling characteristics off saddle are possibly even more important than seated position ergonomics in certain disciplines. For road/gravel bike the saddle position needs to be included but there isn't standardized way to give meaningful headtube lenght. Is it linear, horizontal, horizontal accommodating seat post angle and at what height. And let's say there are two bikes with effectively same ass to palm distance achievable with adjustments, but one has BB 2cm further forward than other, WTF do I do then
I would argue that I used brooks saddles my whole cycling life and 200 miles a day would be quite normal on a Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure there is some merit to your argument but to be honest a saddle is as personal as underpants. I daily used a dawes and raced a bianchi both with brooks and frame shift and caliper brakes and steel frames will always be my preference. Tried them all and still like steel.
As a bike fitter myself, I can concur with all of these comments. The most important thing and something we offer is "fit first, buy second" and also try to find a bike fitter that does not sell off the shelf bikes as they will have no stake in selling you what is on the shop floor. I have had dozens of cyclist coming to me to size a bike and they all say it is the best £50.00 they have spent.
The most annoying thing about current bikes in general is the total inconsistency in frame sizes. Most manufacturers switched to "T-shirt sizes" (S, M, L ...) and they're not even consistent in their own product range. On an MTB an M size might be 18 inches (46 cm), when on the same brand's touring bikes M means 21 inches (54 cm). On road bikes one brand measures frame size in the usual way (center BB to end of seat tube), the other brand measures vertically from BB center to the point where the line touches an imaginary horizontal top tube. So when you're internet frame calculator says 54 cm, you need at least a 56 if not 58 cm frame of the latter brand. So in the end, the only thing that helps is to try and test ride.
That's (your first point) is because seat tube length is a pointless measurement. At least with the S,M,L sizing you tend to buy the same size in (e.g.) Road and MTB... rather than randomly declaring you need a 56cm road bike and an 18" mountain bike (because mountain bikes never did cm much either...). Now you just generally buy an "M". Cockpit length is more important than some random measurement of seat tube length.
I saw an Aethos in a local shop and nearly bought it on the spot. It was gorgeous. But then I went home and compared the geometry to my Roubaix and said, ‘why the hell have they done THAT?!’ I totally agree with you. With Roubaix geometry I would love the hell out of an Aethos. I do a ton of climbing. What bike is light and has that endurance geometry I prefer?
Bike fit is the most important part of how the bike will perform, for mortals. Pros will notice a difference in shaving 8oz or aerodynamics, but for a weekend warrior a bike that fits best will perform best. Especially if event racing is never the goal but only looking to ‘win’ the group ride. ‘My last bike was a 58 (w/o a proper fit & downtube friction shifters) so I need a 58’ is tough to get past. Along with comfort gel saddles. The bike that Fits has to fit the purpose, budget and size. Having to work OT and missing the group ride, on a bike w comfort gel saddle (for upright posture), or ‘riding w the family in the neighborhood’ never seems to work out well.
You'd be surprised what you can ride with 380mm Dropbars, no flare. Wide handlebars on Gravel bikes or the need for flat bars are indeed massively overrated.
Sorry, you can take my Ultimate from my cold, dead hands. Canyon could shape each tube like a weiner and I'd still buy one if it had the same geometry as the older ones. I thought I was a mediocre descender, until I got an Ultimate and started getting really good results on every big descent that I did. And I don't much care about the steerer size - their one-piece bars are sized like they should be with a short stem and bar width that is slightly narrower than standard. Every other bike manufacturer asks for an insane amount of money for their improperly sized one-piece sets, on bikes that have been designed not only for a weird stem shape, but also for internal cable routing. Trek, Specialized and Giant all wanted like 8 grand for a bike with a one-piece back when I bought my Ultimate with the same feature for *two grand*. And the external part of the steerer on the Ultimate is mostly round, so it doesn't look like complete balls with a 2-piece bar and stem.
I'd like to know James' thoughts (rants?) on the new Specialized Diverge. I imagine that much rear suspension will have huge ramifications for bike fit - your position on the bike will be constantly changing, significantly...
Having started in the bike industry over 30 years ago, when I learned to do now very outdated static bike fit, I'm really impressed by James' straightforward advice. I can never understand the marketing departments' fascination with stack and reach. As James points out, they are pretty simplistic metrics that border on the irrelevant when given without context. As an old Fred who has logged thousands of km on Brooks leather saddles, I'm interested in James' dislike of them for a more sporty position. It's refreshing to hear such heresies, and to compare and contrast his expert opinion with my (not necessarily contradicting) personal experience, and the received wisdom that they suit endurance cyclists.
Great vid guys.. Been riding Specialized s works shoes for over ten years, and the forefoot varus wedge on their shoes definitely cured my foot pain. Their latest S-Works Torch road shoe with the dedicated wide carbon plate are the most comfortable cycling I have ever worn.. I'm not a Specialized fan boy... don't like their saddles..
Touring saddle doesn't work on roadbike. Wild theory. Also: I'd argue long reach bars are better, you should just ride them with a shorter stem. That way you get to have an aero position on the hoods and drops, and have a comfortable upright position on the tops.
In regards to bike sizes, does the riders inseam figure into the size of their future bike ❓ I understand that you can rise the saddle up, but does having the saddle very high change stability ❓Or should you increase bike to accommodate the riders leg length ❓
I've seen 'Medium' bikes labelled as 51-55cm . Some seem to reference top tube and some seat tube length. The amount of wrongly sized bikes sold must be enormous.
My Cannondale tandem has a straight 1.5" stem. I nearly got a custom stem (or alternatively a custom tandem fork with tapered steerer) until I found I unicorn stem made by Cannondale a few years earlier. I'll never have another stem option on that bike.
You can have my Brooks saddle if you grab it from my numb, cold perineum! What? But seriously, on something like a trekking bike with horizontal bars and a matching butt, they're fine. Worth the price? Maybe not. Pretty? Hell yes.
I just built a Madone SLR, and my model had the IsoSpeed decoupler. Now I'm worried about creaking once it starts to age... Thanks James. Love the video and channel tho 👌
It won’t, mine has over 5,000 miles with rainy days and a lot of sweat and I haven’t heard a single thing… yet. I greased it maybe around when it had about 100 miles it was dry though…. I do not think that the iso speed is unnecessary, the Madone has been the best bike i’ve ever had, because I have the option of adjusting the stiffness whenever I feel like it, i’ve done centuries, and so on… the bike has gone through everything and I can say the iso speed works, I dont think this guys knows about the iso speed in fact i don’t think he owns a madone
Isn't the long reach issue more to do with the combined reach you get from the Stem+Bar combo? As I understand it, if you shorten the stem and increase the handlebar reach, the controls are in the exact same position. The only thing that changes is the distance between the tops/corners and the hoods/hooks, which means a more-upright position when moving there.
My thoughts exactly. It could also result in a more relaxed climbing position. However, the downside *could* be that your legs hit the bar when you're climbing (or sprinting) out of the saddle. Interesting topic nevertheless.
Hi Guys, love the videos. Just one small gripe. Could you please do away with the noise/ music in the background. For a few of us who suffer from Mispophonia it is torture. Regular music would be fine it's just h the repetitive plink plink noise that grates . Everything else is just great. ( pun intended)
*Misophonia......sorry Clive for correction. I'm not being pedantic being a fellow sufferer, but I think it's important for people to click on the correct word to be able to find out the meaning. Thanks Iain.
Oooops Apologies Clive, I just googled your spelling Mispophonia and it found it straight away. Best of luck with it anyway (Noise-cancelling headphones back on lol)
This fella is just getting harder to watch. Remember people it's just one man's opinion. And as for brooks let's see where your fave companies are in 100 years. Can't be beat ❤ Thumbs up and a watch for cade media
Stack and reach is fine if you assume you are going to adjust stem/spacers/bars/seatpost offset/seat to get the right fit. And in that they are great. It tells you the size of the piece you can’t change the frame. As a mechanism to fit the bike per se it’s stupid - but who does that?
I always thought steeper STA meant that the bike, compared with another bike with the same top tube length, would be longer, because you'd have to move your saddle further back to maintain the same saddle fore aft (and thereby increasing the saddle to handlebar distance).
I think you're adding in a variable that isn't accounted for, namely how high your saddle is from the top tube. If you have 8" of seatpost visible with a 73 degree STA and 52cm top tube, your saddle will be further back than if you only had 4" visible seatpost on the same frame, thus necessitating a forward adjustment of the saddle. Given the same amount of visible seatpost, a slacker (lower number) STA will increase the reach over a more aggressive (higher number) STA. 😁
