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Judo brown belt here - I don't disagree about judoka over committing, but many times, as I suspect is the case here, it's not actually overcommitting - it's undercommitting for the sake of safety. A committed judo throw here would have been him making the circle less round and landing on your ribs while maintaining a close connection. He's throwing you up in the air, not down into the ground, which is why you have all of the extra space and opportunities. You can also see that he posts on his hand in order to protect you from his weight. "Mutual Benefit and Welfare" is one of the two core tenets of Judo and it seems to be a bigger training priority in Judo than BJJ in my experience.
Thanks for breaking it down. I noticed it very easily, but couldn't put it in words, as my skills in both Judo and Bjj are quite limited. Not many people understand how dangerous Judo really is when applied full throttle. You basically hit the bad guy with the planet.
I agree. I usually don't over commit to my Uchi Matas or Seoi Nages against people who I know aren't trained to take falls (i.e. wrestlers / judoka). In fact, I usually don't use those techiques much at all in BJJ or against people who have a competition coming up because of the risk to injury. So instead, this is what happens... 1. I soft ball my forward throw because I don't want to hurt my training partner (i.e. a shallow uchi mata or a really slow ippon seoi nage). 2. The BJJ player usually scrambles to take my back. The few times I've thrown with force and landed square on them by accident they usually tap or ask for a quick break. Again, I'm not trying to do this, but it happens occasionally when mats are slippery. About 3 months ago a guy who outweighed me by 30 lbs tried to take my back while I still had a lapel grip and I instinctively threw an uchi mata, landed on him, and bruised his ribs. As a result, I usually stick to throws with a lot of control (Ashi Waza) and some sutemi waza that I can control the impact on (rolling uki wazas, tawara gaeshis, and sumi gaeshis). Again, this is to avoid hurting my partner. This is the same as a wrestler electing to use a claw breakdown, slide by's, and turning the corner on a double rather than blasting a standing Barzegar, Salto, or Belly to Back Suplex.
Friendly PSA. When Judo guys “over commit” by rolling through or hover above, it’s often not accidental. They are intentionally trying to lessen the blow of the impact for the receiver. Getting thrown is one thing, getting thrown while they land connected with full weight on top of you, sandwiching your body, with no ability to rebound… it’s a fight ender even on the mat. A comparison would be like blasting an arm bar full speed and tensions with no ability to tap vs getting into it more technically. The problem is you can’t really slow down some of the throws when it’s in full send, but a good thrower can lessen its impact, often by rolling through or posting… So, smile slap dap and appreciate them for not breaking ribs. 😂
Yeah that's bullshit. During judo competitions you see them overthrowing more than not. And opponent's safety is the last thing they think about lol. It is SUPER hard to control the momentum and while in judo successful throw ends the match in BJJ the bottom guy can just drag you with him after getting thrown and get better position. It takes extra skill to use judo effectively in BJJ.
@@antoinegezod if you overthrow during randori you aren't really doing it right. Competition is another level of intensity so don't really get your point. Again if its randori and you throw your partner on their head then you are again doing it wrong, that being said if you know what you are doing as a judoka and want to throw for self defence...enjoy spinning to guard with that concussion/broken ribs. If you don't respect the standing game in BJJ then you are just limiting yourself. Learn the full art and don't just pull guard.
BJJ is Judo. Name one BJJ technique that isn't a judo technique? There are different judo bjj bodies each with their own rule sets. The rule set is not the art form. Judo isn't standing only and BJJ isn't ground only... Bjj is an expression of judo
@@moqo you overestimate the power of throws. Skateboarders fall from tall shit all the time and they are okay. Judo itself is not gonna win you a street fight.
@@antoinegezod you underestimate the ramifications of head injuries I think. Where did I say Judo would win a street fight. Where in this thread was this ever about street fighting? The OP was talking about throwing with control, if you had practiced Judo (or BJJ that teach standup) then you would understand the point. You do realise BJJ and Judo are essentially the same art seen from a different perspective right?
Love the "that's what I was trying to do" clip, I have no experience whatsoever in grappling but I find it really entertaining, and I know I'll do it sooner or later. Thanks for the quality contents Jeff
As a guy who's been training BJJ and Wrestling for the last 3 months, I can say you make it look easy! As a grappling noob, it is kind of cool seeing some familiar moves, mainly because I'm often on the other side of them XD. I look forward to seeing more content!
If he lands on you with that uchi Mata instead of trying to be a good partner then he might not have had the overcommitment issue a lot of judo guys have on the throw but of course it’s very frowned upon to land on your partner after you throw them since it causes A LOT more damage which is unnecessary in a light rolling/sparring session. This happens a lot when judokas train in BJJ where they are trying to throw someone but at the same time not do too much damage since it isn’t the objective. Amazing uchi Mata and amazing groundwork by Jeff!
Just to clarify what is happening with that uchi mata. What is shown in the video is not overcommitted. For what they are doing, it's perfectly fine level of commitment. He get's his back because the judoka was actually in the middle of standing up so this is a total misattribution of what happened. If this were competition what I would expect is for the uchi mata to be executed the same or with landing on his chest followed by immediate hold down/submission attempt without trying to stand up. I don't think BJJ players generally have the experience of being thrown full force followed up with immediate newaza. What's done in randori is a very faint approximation.
Hey I don't think he's over-commiting. If he throws you with full strength, it would actually be very painful for you especially for throws where he adds in his weight in the momentum. During randoris I got thrown by a black belt and while it wasn't that painful, I still feel pain throughout my entire body and that is with him taking easy.
one day at judo championship i got thrown as much hard that, i got half knockouted by throw, so if anyone will get same throw at street this will finish tragically
As a Judoka, I cheered when Jay sent you flying and cried when you outclassed him on the ground and fully expected both of these results. Both fighting systems are great but they do have their strengths and weaknesses. I find BJJ deficient in throws, takedowns and trips and Judo outclassed in the overall grappling game. C'est la vie. I freely vouch for the fact that I am always submitted in grappling by BJJ guys and like poor Jay here, I've very often sent them flying first only to be submitted shortly thereafter. 😕I always tell BJJ fighters I work with that I'm good enough to make you have to work for it, but we both know is winning in the end. It's all good and they should be proud of the work they put in and their abilities. I'm always very happy to work with them and trade Judo for BJJ knowledge. 🙂
@SINdaBlock411 I was just mentioning this in an impromptu Judo seminar to my gym I did this Friday, SINda. After teaching everyone 1 throw from each of the recognized 5 categories, I asked them why we train on mats even when we are only striking or grappling on the ground already and who would like to get thrown on the steel floor under the mats or on the concrete driveway, sidewalk or street outside the front door. This was to give perspective and warn them never to do it in real life unless absolutely necessary.
Excellent video with a great narration as always. Jay exhibits great control and grace. Most of my judo training was outside of the US where there seemed to be more of a balance between the training of Nage-Waza, Katame-Waza and Atemi-Waza. Judo can be all encompassing if we let it. Sometimes it's ok to turn off the sport mode and go old school;) The judo and BJJ cross training combination is really formidable. I know for me it took over a decade after shodan to really start to scrape the surface in terms of the way these two arts can offer synergies in a fight situation. Jeff, your ground game is becoming very impresive. It is starting to look intuitive and instinctive, nice job.
A video on judo throws no gi+ follow up would be very nice to add to the game. I love wrestling but i think judo has a lot of good but is often misunderstood.
He didn't over committed, a real judoka will always protect uke when throwing, he could land on top but it's dangerous for uke so he put the hands on the mat. Throws are not difficult, protecting uke is the hard part.
More grappling!! Great lesson again, good job Jeff! But honestly variety is awesome, i try to latch on to at least one idea and try out. and if you cycle through different departments of the mma game, I always look forward to it
All these judo techniques are very effective, Jeff was just waiting for him to use them to counter attack. This proves that experience sparring and fighting matter more than just practicing techniques. If Jeff was attacking instead of defending, he would of got caught by these techniques. He would of been in trouble. Jeff is also better on the ground which is why he won most of the time. However, this video proves that many judo techniques are very deadly and are valuable to add as tools.
I'm Judoka for more than 30 years now and BJJ player too. At 4:50 it's no over-commitment, he did his Uchi Mata very well (which in a Judo tournament would have made him win by Ippon instantly) and tried everything he could to not fall onto you - what you took advantage from. Also fighting in no-gi styles is a big disadvantage for Judokas, especially in Ne Waza (groundfighting).
Great video bro. I love the way you sneak clips of what you were trying to do, it makes the hole thing much more immersive and understandable, looking forward to more grappling videos!!
LOVING what I'm seeing here. Excellent and very educational. I do note that a lot of the comments in regards to the Judo throws being deliberately softened as much as possible sound very much like when strikers like myself point out that we're hitting with soft or light contact during sparring. And a lot of the grapplers don't GET that; the Gracies really did mess up people's understanding of what's effective with their hype, just like how karate and taekwondo had people thinking that taking your shoes off before kicking someone was better than keeping them on and slamming someone's head while wearing foot protection. (to say nothing of the misconceptions people started having when it came to ninjutsu. The McDojos had everyone convinced that they could walk around in broad daylight wearing neon colored ninja outfits, insta-winning against everyone they came across :P )
i'm going to sign up for your bjj online class as soon as it hits november .i'm excited! also, whenever you come to malaysia, you're welcome to train with us!
Judo is good in stand up game as well as in ground game. Don’t think judokas stink at ground fighting bc of this video. What’s happening here is that BJJ is rather ok at stand up game and EXCELLENT at ground fighting. In judo you won’t be taught how to leg lock and how to defend it (because it’s forbidden in the sport), you won’t learn de la riva or x guard because if one is standing and the other is lying the match restarts. Si the judoka dosn’t have the experience to pass guard from standing, norbeing too fluent on the ground. If youw ever do judo you’ll see it is very stiff on the ground. That’s how the competition determines the practice. In judo once you get to kesa gatame you become a stone and it’s hardly impossible to exit that. But in BJJ the don’t really know how to pin correctly and focus a lot on how to finish from a top postion and so. Just to point out some differences.
From my experience It doesn't work against people who are skilled at striking, armed individuals, those significantly larger than you, or when facing multiple opponents (In other words, every time you get jumped, as they will ALWAYS have the advantage on you. Playing fair is poor strategy). When your opponent falls into any of the categories previously mentioned, trying to get close for a grab is usually not a great idea.
@@30035XDit definitely does work against a skilled striker,a larger person,an armed person,but doesn't against multiple opponents,the only things that works against multiple opponents are firearms,or Parkour.
Fun video! As much as I love Judo, it always seems to match up poorly with other grappling arts. I think this is because it’s such a specialized system. Not only does it focus nearly exclusively on the standing position, it also makes shooting illegal, a lot like Greco Roman wrestling. And with no gi to grip, it puts Judokas at such a disadvantage in these rolls. I suspect Jeff was playing his standup specifically for the experience of testing his Judo a bit. If he wanted to get thrown less and score more, I’m pretty sure he could have wrestled from stance and made for a different roll all together, but that would have been a much less interesting experience. That being said, I think there’s an exception to the Judo problem. Elite Judokas - top of the food chain players - are a very different breed. They may actually be the most elite grapplers. I’m not sure because we never get to see Olympic Judo vs. Olympic wrestling or ADCC BJJ, but I suspect those guys would actually compete very well in a roll like this.
I'm a wrestler (Folk, Greco, and Catch), Judoka, did 3 amateur MMA fights many moons ago, and a BJJ player. I think what you said is a misconception. The trouble with comparing the grappling arts is that there is no one "format" to do so. Each "grappling style" tests different skills / values, which is reflected in the point system. For example, an ADCC caliber grappler would more than likely get absolutely destroyed in a Collegiate Folkstyle Wrestling ruleset, where pins, escapes, and back exposure score points. You can't fall into the trap of thinking "because Judo guys loose at BJJ, they are bad grapplers." (When actually, you'll find many of them are still pretty good on the ground despite never having taken a day of BJJ). BJJ is not the "universal grappling ruleset." Instead, you have to look at the skills each art values. This is how I look at it: * Judo's specialty is Clothed/unclothed throws, sweeps, and trips. It sub-specializes in upper body submissions and pins. * Greco Roman's specialty is unclothed upper body throws and clinch fighting. It sub-specializes in upper body pin retention * Freestyle's specialty unclothed takedowns and throws, which it does very well. It sub-specializes in pins. * Gi BJJ's specialty clothed/unclothed upper body submissions (particularly Guard). It sub-specializes in gaining position. * No Gi BJJ's specialty is unclothed upper and lower body submissions (particularly leg locks). * Folkstyle Wrestling's specialty is unclothed takedowns, pins, rides, and escapes. A good practitioner of one art should be able to translate parts of their game into similar parts of another grappling sport. It's never 1 for 1, but it can be close. That same athlete then has to develop skills that they aren't familiar with to compete. In my experience it is MUCH faster to develop ground skill than standing skill - but that's neither here nor there. Either way, you can never expect a pure exponent of a sport to dominate another athlete in an area where the other specializes in. Anyhow, I've known plenty of Judokas who within a couple of months, have made the switch to Wrestling, BJJ, or MMA and caught on quickly. I think it's a great "base."
I personally like judo way better, but its amazing to see the differences in techniques from both of you, i personally think the "Judo vs BJJ" debate is purely about whos more skilled, as you dominated in the ground but he got you for good multiple times too.
You could probably amend the statement to "the problem with judo *in a bjj/mma environment*". For non-grappling-trained opponents, especially on hard surfaces, concrete, hardwood flooring etc, I wouldn't imagine overcommiting throws to be a problem at all.
Judo throws peak on the landing then winding down, dues to Judo Ippon scoring system. Meanwhile, Jiu-Jitsu starts from the landing, either redirects the impact momentum or taking advantages of Judoka rolling off to come up, in a sense, using Judo sacrifice throws. Judoka will not accept being thrown on the back and therefore you need to commit 100%. However, with Jiu-Jitsu, most of the guys will accept the throw and wait for the landing so you can peak in mid-air and then slow down and take your time figuring out your preferred position. On landing, I like to frame with far arm to create distance between our hips and land in T off position. This will prevent him from using your momentum to come up, and not right on top of you. It will be a race to see who comes up first but I think you will be at a stronger position, because you can back step and use that kicking momentum to come up. Awesome round!
Yellow belt in judo. Multi stripe white belt in bjj. The 2 combined is deadly. Love hitting a de ahsi on people in bjj. So satisfying. Sweep right into side control
Nice detailed breakdown video as always. Also, I noticed that you have a training retreat course in Vietnam. I have my little cousin who lives there, he is a big fan of you, if it's possible that he can meet you at Ben Thanh market?
I wouldn't say he's over comitting, I think his issue is he's using Judo throws with zero control. I do Judo and I'm a BJJ Brown Belt, I don't lose control because I use the Greco Roman holds and locks as opposed to the traditional Judo holds. The Greco Roman holds allow the throw but also allow you to remain on top. I also think Greco throws are more devistating, like my throws don't look nearly as high as the man featured in this video but I can gurantee you that my throws not only hurt more but do more damage than his, this is because as we leave that 2 feet up into the air I land on top of you in the process and you'll definitely get the wind knocked out of you if you're not used to it. Satoshi Ishii uses the same strategy, just lands right on his opponents, not focusing so much on how high it is or obtaining Ippon but simply having a successful throw to the ground while causing enough damage to either win the fight or to disorient the opponent and maintain control.
i once fought a gentle giant of a judo black belt when i was a blue belt once , i really couldnt stay on my feet for very long , but on the mat , he kept turtling or went flat on his tummy to avoid hooks in, but i kept getting him with an armbar
Judo is so sick. It was my primary form of getting people down before I got into wrestling. As i’ve gotten better at wrestling I completely see why wrestling is so dominant in mma etc. I now see judo more so as a great compliment to wrestling instead of being a primary takedown method. But that’s just me.
I still swing back and forth. At this point I've picked up enough Greco, Judo, and Folkstyle to mix and match. I don't even see it as "moves" or "mindset" as much as tools for different situations. Each sport has situations that pop up more often and therefore you find yourself using those tools more often. For example, I find myself using uki waza (lateral drops), tawara gaeshis (chest wrap) and sumi gaeshis in wrestling. I use a lot of Uchi Mata and Sasae in BJJ. I primarily use Osoto, Sasae, and inside trips in Judo. Although, when I'm tired or going up against a physical beast, I tend to start thinking like a Judoka. Also, in MMA I use "No-Gi" Judo almost exclusively.
@@lamesurfer1015 Nearly the same for me. Not a big Osoto guy but I respect those who use it. Sasaes are the most underrated form of takedown. The versatility of them is wild
So much well executed and beautiful technique as always! Taking advantage of his overcommitment after that awesome uchi-mata was a clever tactic. Great video, great sparring, awesome stuff from both of you guys.
It makes sense the BJJ fighter has an advantage in a no-gi setting with BJJ rules. However you would have lost by ippon several times before being able to do anything on the ground under judo rules, and in a self defence scenario on hard floor getting thrown like that also doesn't sound like a nice experience.
If it wasnt friendly randori, Judoka would just slam person on ground, then stand around and wait for the BJJ person to either get up and taken for another throw, or remain on the ground wondering why the judoka is just standing there.
Sanda here, I find myself in the same position when I stand up grapple in jitz , I get the takedowns but I dont want to land on peoples ribs so I leave this room that a bjj guy can capitilize on
Overcommiting to a throw is a double edged sword in my opinion. In real life, a fully realized throw is often enough to end a fight and stay safe. On the other hand, if it does go to the ground, you had better be prepared for what it will become afterwords.
Wow great stuff such a great grappling difference between judo and BJJ ... Yeah he is really good at judo. Wow but maybe I didn't understand but he let you get that high z mount or you took it. I'm sure you could get it any way but it seemed like he just let you there.
5.04 'The issue with Judoka is they overcommit on their throw' Perhaps. But I believe, he also didn't master follow up after throw, transition from throw to Bjj. That doesn't mean he's not a good Judoka, since he doesn't have to transition. In Judo competition, he can refuse to go to ground, by staying out of reach, then the referee would reset it. Judo thought to civilian is different then in military. But it's rare that a soldier can go through competition without dq. So normally they just didn't sign up. As a result people don't even know.
The thing that I dislike about BJJ is that there is no fight until you are on the floor. You can incorporate wrestling or judo into your BJJ but those are wrestling and judo techniques, not BJJ. Without judo or wrestling you are rolling around on your shoulder blades and neck trying to pull your opponent on to the floor.
