The funny thing: even within the Black German community we see the same discriminatory classist patterns generally found in neoliberal, post-social democratic societies, where you are being judged mainly based on your socioeconomic status and also your looks. So the "professional class" Black Germans network with one another and pretty much exclude those who don't align with their classist, mostly academic orientation. So they are very keen to reproduce classist social stratification patterns and foster disparity. I'm not saying that people should not cluster according to their share interests and ideas (well: they naturally do). I'm just saying: consider that not everyone is inclined towards pursuing academic and career achievements, yet can make contributions in other ways.
It is illegal for EU countries to collect data on race or ethnicity because of how such information was used by the former National Socialists. In the UK, the collection of such data is legal.
This is not exactly accurate. It’s not illegal. They just chose not to. It can be done as long as the information is given voluntarily and regulated under GDPR laws.
@@MeggishiSo GDPR. That states: shall not apply if one of the following applies: H) processing is necessary for archiving purposes in the public interest, scientific or historical research purposes or statistical purposes in accordance with Article 89(1) based on Union or Member State law which shall be proportionate to the aim pursued, respect the essence of the right to data protection and provide for suitable and specific measures to safeguard the fundamental rights and the interests of the data subject.
As the brother mentioned, it is NOT illegal. The Europeans do not want to address the issue of Slavery and Colonialism. They hate to be reminded of their DARK past but also ongoing racism. Only the UK which left the union is a bit more opened-minded in this area even though it is does not stop racism as we cannot forget the case of Stephen Lawrence who was assassinated in a racist attack.
Not collecting "racial" data is not a matter of "overcorrection" due to historical reasons. Until a few years ago that data would not have even been relevant. Why do you expect the government to collect irrelevant data? Germany did not have the degree of immigration from Africa and the Carribean that the UK and France had since the 1960s (and even before). Even as recently as in the early 1990s the Black community in Germany was still quite small. In the East we only had some thousands of Mozambican contract labourers + a few hundred cadres, delegates and students from the African liberation movements that were supported by the East such as the South African ANC of Mandela and MPLA of Angola (especially the ANC received significant support from the GDR). And of course some Black Cubans. In the West of Germany you always had a small degree of immigration (students etc.) from western-oriented countries such as Ghana (after Nkrumah) and Nigeria. West Germany also hosted some very shadowy figures such as representatives of RENAMO and UNITA, two organisations that during the Cold War were controlled by Apartheid South Africa and received western funding to destabilise the newly independent, formerly Portugese, socialist-oriented countries in Southern Africa. African immigration then increased when more and more asylum seekers and refugees came in the 1990s, in particular from war-torn Angola and Congo DRC and also in the context of irregular immigration. Obviously these days you also have more German-African relationships, that often start during study visits or travel and end up in African people relocating to their partners in Germany. Personally I don't agree with the overly use of the term "race" we find in the English-speaking world. For a good reason the term has been pretty much ostracized, but now made it's comeback into the German "Alltagssprache" due to the influence from the English-speaking world. If you understand the importance of "racial" classification for Nazi ideology, you would see why maybe it's not the best idea to reintroduce these terms and concepts! If you fail to understand this, you basically failed to understand Nazism and haven't learned from history, which your description as "overcorrection" indicates is the case.
Hey, thanks for such a detailed contribution. Appreciated. It’s now 2024 and Germany has over a million people of African descent not to mention the many people from other regions of the world. Do you still think this data isn’t relevant? Unfortunately “race” as an ideology was created and it is here now. I personally do not think it helps to ostracise it because it affects people’s lives everyday. Whether people choose to believe that or not is up to them. But it does. Government policies, economics, and societal norms affect different races in different ways. That needs to be acknowledged. Burying our heads in the sand and ‘not seeing colour’ usually hurts the people and ideas we think we are protecting. And I think it’s crazy that we still can’t trust data of this sort to be used for its rightful purpose and the argument always refers back to N*zism. Surely lessons have been learnt. And if not then collecting data is not the problem. Or have I missed something?
@@ConvosXpodcast 'Thanks. Germany has not begun to identify itself as an "immigration nation" (Einwanderungsland) until the early to mid-2000s I would argue. German society was much less ethnically and culturally diverse and plural 30 years ago compared to today. So these issues we are talking about are really somewhat new. Yes, they have become relevant recently. I'm not sure whether an "identity politics" approach is really viable that aims for representation of each and every group self-identifying along ethnic, cultural, religious etc lines. To me this seems like a competition for resources and public acknowledgement between various minority groups and like an approach that is not beneficial for social cohesion. We see that when Ukrainian refugees are receiving preferential treatment over Syrian refugees and Syrian refugees receiving preferential treatment over African refugees. The whole immigration debate prior to the Ukrainian situation pretty much focused on Arabic refugees, to the detriment of African refugees. Universities and public institutions made sure to cater to Arabic immigrants, while other immigrant groups were left behind. Now the idea is to collect data on the situation of the various immigrant communities to adopt policies that foster their integration. Fair enough. I'm just not sure that it's really feasible to allocate the exact fair share of ressources to each and every identity group / community and whether (in light of the "Rechtsruck") N*zis and data collection: well, I think it's really crucial to understand, that the atrocities committed by the N*zis to a large extent relied very much on population data. You might want to look up "IBM and the H*l*caust" for a start. The same data that is being collected with the objective to assist minority communities and foster their integration can also be used for more sinister purposes. For example: N*zis used data on the cost of catering for handicapped people in specialised institutions to argue for the elimination of these people (look up: "Aktion T4").
Again, great explanation. From my experience in the UK. Where this data is collected. It’s not necessarily to allocate “equal” resources across the population/communities. That would be nice but it’s not feasible. What the data mostly does is it gives a good picture as to what is going on in the country across all communities as an awareness. If there is an issue such as unequal pay in the same job position highlighted, this can be pointed out and the employees as well as the employers can do better within the recruitment process. So there is now a lot of transparency for salaries when you are applying for jobs. This helps everyone. It’s not at all perfect but it gives an idea where work needs to be done. One of my favourites is crime statistics. Because it’s always great to prove to the racist people who shout about crime being predominantly prevalent in Black communities, wrong. The data shows it’s pretty level across all communities and races proving people commit crimes on the people closest to them and no race has a monopoly on crime. Here is an example on education and I personally think it fascinating to have this information: www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/11-to-16-years-old/gcse-results-attainment-8-for-children-aged-14-to-16-key-stage-4/latest/#:~:text=pupils%20from%20the%20Chinese%20ethnic%20group%20had%20the%20highest%20average,and%20black%20Caribbean%20pupils%20(41.7) Speaking of which, why do you think it could be dangerous and who would you consider the “wrong hands”?
@@ConvosXpodcast Well, we see the rise of the rightwing parties, the AfD in particular. The AfD has a significant fraction that is quite openly inspired by the NS-ideology (and I don't mean that in the sense that leftwing and liberal people like to frame conservatives as N*zis, but in the actual and literal sense). They have a "Völkisch" (= ethnonationalist) agenda that aims to remove non-Germanic people from society, either by deportation or even by other means (which they are not yet prepared to openly communicate, but which you can already implicitly deduce from some of their writings, such as the texts written by AfD leader Björn Höcke under the alias of "Landolf Ladig"). If that is their objective, do you think having available in-depth population data that can be filtered by ethnicity is beneficial or counter-productive for pursuing such an agenda? And at the very least, with the current decline of the Social Democratic, Green, leftwing and liberal political spectrum, I can't foresee a near future where there is a political majority that is willing to cater to minority interests the way for example the Green and Social Democratic coalition has done or even the Merkel government (while a member of the conservative CDU, her policies were remarkably Social Democratic and humanistic-oriented, if you set aside her more traditional stance on family and marriage)
@@sebentilezanini1085 The problem starts when you make the distinction between "them" and "us". That indicates a perception where you are alienated from the main society and want representation based on belonging to a minority group. That means that instead of becoming part of the main society, you want to be seen and respected for your status of belonging to a minority. The issue here: you make yourself fully dependent on the goodwill and benevolence of those that you refer to as "them", since they are the one who decide about funding (or not funding) initiatives aimed at empowering minorities. Currently we have a center-left liberal government with Social Democrats, Green Party and the neoliberal FDP in power on the federal level. But with the shift to the right you will see less benevolent powers taking over, first on the local, then on the provincial (Bundesländer) and potentially at some point even the federal level. Candidates like Hoecke of Thüringen have already promised that they will cut all funding for projects and state initiatives catering to minority groups and he is most likely going to win the elections there based on the current pre-polls. So, if you insist on your status as a member of a minority group and state initiatives to empower you based on your minority status, you also make yourself susceptible to the plans of the rightwing to terminate all programmes aimed at empowering minorities once they are in the seats of power. Not to mention, that they can use the very data that was collected with the noble idea of empowering minority groups, to target or ostracize them. Hence I'm critical of all this state sponsored identity politics and rather advocate for claiming your rights based on being a citizen of the country, rather than demanding minority rights.
