Hi Paul, here are my thoughts: 1) First and foremost, I think if you can afford and justify the original, always support the Brand who put the time and effort into designing it. 2) I truly believe this tent won’t affect Durston’s sales. If I did, I wouldn’t have made the video. The X-Mid 2 is approx £375 to the UK and the Yun Chuan 2 cost me £138 (over £200 less). 3) Running a RU-vid Channel has been a humbling experience. For many, the thought of buying a £375 tent is completely out of the question. However, £138 may be within some people’s reach. I like the thought of people with limited funds having access to top-end tent designs even with a small budget. 4) The outdoor industry is riddled with similarly designed products. They’re everywhere from tents to stoves to bags to pads. It’s not just the Chinese, everyone’s at it! Let’s also not forget, Durston is not squeaky clean either (ask Tarptent / Sierra Designs). 5) Camping gear is getting more and more expensive and an increasingly large amount of people are being excluded from buying new gear. I hate this! Surely backpacking is for everyone? The mark-ups are huge. Greedflation seems to be rife and it needs to stop. 6) My review has really hit a nerve to some and I guess it’s because Dan is a nice guy and his customer service is excellent. However, these similarly designed tents have been around for years and many of us have owned a Lanshan 2 (Six Moon Designs / Z-Packs), Cloud Up 2 (Big Agnes / Terra Nova), Cloud Peak 2 (Hilleberg), OEX, etc, etc. This tent is just another on a long line of similarly designed products. In summary, it's a really difficult one. I want the little guy to have access to great designs but I also feel sorry for the Brands having their designs made similarly. At the end of the day though, I'm sure people who have the money will always buy the original, and I think that puts the case to bed. People are probably worrying over nothing, and in the meantime, the little guy is enjoying their new stylish product.
With regard to Tarptent and Sierra Designs, both have said that the X-Mid is a substantially different tent and not a knockoff of their gear. These tents do all have diagonal ridgelines (which wasn't invented by either company but rather came from a user) but the X-Mid is much more than a diagonal ridgeline as it differs in many other ways. The SS and HR don't have a diagonal floor like the X-Mid does (their floors are square to the fly). The X-Mid is the first rectangular tent with a diagonal floor, so it combines a diagonal ridgeline with an opposite diagonal floor to create the world's first double diagonal tent. It is also the first tent to use a parallelogram shaped floor, so it introduces quite a few genuine innovations with real benefits like moving the pole locations and vestibules beside the doors instead of blocking them. Of course there are some elements of it that pre-existed (like there is for any tent) but it introduces more new ideas than any other trekking pole tent in the last decade, so I don't think it should be implied that it's copying others/has dirty hands such that this justifies others making clones of our tent. For the ethics of copying, I think this is a personal choice that is up to each person to decide what they want to support, so I'm not angry about your video or opposed to the discussion.
Having been a ‘wild camper’ for a few decades now I have never had a budget or more than £200. Most of my tents have been sales offers, second-hand etc. My first new tent was back in 2009 (Vango F10 Nitro 200) that was after many second-hand tents. I think the Durston is out of reach for many people. The price of outdoor gear is often way too expensive and daunting for people. Anyway maybe this will give Dan some interesting feedback and help him come up with a few more changes that could change the minds of us whole are holding off? Come on Dan I want a bright ORANGE version! 😆🤣
Andy, I enjoyed your review. Everyone has bought something copied by another company. If you hadn't made that video someone else would have. Unfortunately, the outdoor community is worse than other hobbies in many cases, as it is full of Brand snobbery and a bullying like herd mentality at times
@@MrAndRob I can’t believe how many hypocrites there are. Preaching about Durston whilst owning Lanshans, Cloud Ups, Cloud Peaks ,etc, etc. My blood is boiling!
It was a cracking video Andy and all you were doing is keeping the outdoor community informed. Im not condoning Chinese knock offs, but like you say, we’ve all had or used one before im sure. Dont be put off by negative comments. The debate actually helps trigger the algorithm !
Like you Paul I bought the naturhike Cloud Peak 2 tent. I paid around 135 euro for it 2 years ago and have spend about 23 -25 nights in it. I could never ever afford the Hilleberg Allak for around 1250 euro (9 times as much !), so no loss there for Hilleberg. For the money it is a fantastic value, I like the tent very much and think the quality is ok and even very good for the money. No problems so far. I don't camp in stormy or extreme cold conditions like youtibers do, -8 Celsius being the coldest so far. For enthousiasts who camp maybe 30-40 nights in a year and do not have deep pockets Chinese knock-offs are a viable option and I do not feel quilty buying these products. I think MOST people who buy Chinese knock-off tents for 100-200 are not real potential customers for companies like Hilleberg or Durston. So there is no real loss there for these companies. Just my opinion. Camping gear wise I am more the English Woodsman type and I am good with that.
I would say that it is possible that one feeds the other, to a degree. I fancied doing a little wild camping after watching yours and other youtubers' videos. I didn't really have the money to spend and wasn't sure it was going to be a long lasting hobby so I bought a Lanshan 1 after watching a lot of reviews. It's been a good tent, weight, quality, everything. I now know it was a rip off of a Moon designs tent, probably the same kind of set up as Durston BUT I would NEVER have brought that Moon Design tent as my first, would never have invested that much. Now, a couple of years later, I am in the market for a Hilleberg Soulo. One thing leads to the other. So the Chinese knock offs have a role to play in letting people experiment and bring new people into the market, who slowly gain knowledge and may well go on to become higher spending customers ... tricky one. Good topic.
Couldn't agree more, if these knock-offs lower the barrier to entry for people to get into a healthy hobby, then I'm all for them. And to be honest, most of the cost of the original is in the brand name.
The problem nowadays is the knock offs are as good quality as the original or even better for about 50% of the price usually If I had the money to throw around I'd buy all original expensive gear (who wouldn't) But look how the world's economy has been hit since the COVID bs So I'll end up with a clone and probably be really happy with it (Sorry Dan 😂) importing or exporting to the USA has gone up a lot in the last 5 years too
Interesting debate. I own a Cloud Peak 2, a Trekology UL80, Sleep Matt, an APG Stove, OEX Ultralight chair and loads of Eurohike gear .I don't feel guilty in the slightest. I couldn't afford a thousand quid Hilleberg tent, and even if i could I wouldn't pay it. If these "top brands" want to rip of consumers with outlandish pprices, then they can hardly grumble when they are ripped off themselves. For the record, all the "Cheaper" gear I own has been great, suits my needs and allows me to get out wild camping. If it wasn't aviailable I'd never have bothered and wouldn't be subscribing to your's and the other You Tubers. I'm extremely grateful for the content you and others produce as I thouroughly enjoy your content.
The 80/20 rule suggests that with Chinese copies of branded products, you can often achieve about 80% of the quality or usability for just 20% of the price of the original brand. Spending more on these copies, such as paying 40% of the branded version's price, doesn't necessarily mean you get a product that's twice as good as one priced at 20%. This is because the production quality of branded items and their cheaper counterparts is often similar, as both are made by factory workers with comparable skills and equipment, with the only discernible difference being that the branded version's factory staff aren't under as much time pressure, and this often leads to fewer defects in welding/stitching etc. The only time you see a stark difference in quality is when the item is manufactured in a wealthy western country like the US, Canada, Australia, Germany, UK, or Japan and Korea if it's in Asia...
If it suits... However you will find that the more expensive gear can often last decades rather than years. IAlso they are often not that much more expensive. The old exped down mat was only about 30 quid more expensive than trekology pads and was a true winter mat. They no longer make it but the synmat is still in stock. Friends who bought cheaper mats did have problems over time with insulation, leaks and valves. By the time they bought replacements they could have just bought the more expensive product which would have lasted.
@@BrokenBackMountainsIndeed. I buy the best tent, sleeping bag and mat I can afford. Otherwise I don’t mind the knock off stuff. I don’t want to be wet, cold or on the hard ground…that’s my base requirements for camping. I’ve used the same tent and sleeping pad for more than 20 years now with no issues.
@@BrokenBackMountains That's all well and good, but as I'm now in my early 60's, I'm not really looking for something that last for decades. It's all about the here and now for me. I simply refuse to pay 200 quid for a sleepmat when a 50 quid Mat on top of a 10 quid foil mat does exactly the same thing. For me, the same applies to tents, cooking equipment and clothing. Each to their own I guess.
@@alanbateson9275 They aren't 200 quid but each to their own. I'm 57 and intend going up the hills and camping for another decade or two. I will be taking the lightest, most reliable and warmest equipment I can to ensure I can continue what I have been doing for over 40 years.
The one thing that nearly always get's overlooked when people talk about mark-up is development costs, yes it could cost only £10 to make something that sells for a £100, but that company could have spent 100's of thousands in development and that needs to be recouped, the copies don't have these costs.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent on development, it's complete bullshit! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! It makes me laugh that some people believe these words! !
Some people simply can’t afford top end gear the big companies do rip the arse out of you with their prices, many people just can’t afford it for what’s essentially a hobby. 👍🏴
Every year around Christmas Chinese ‘students’ hit markets around Belfast taking photographs of nearly every handmade product they see. As traders of handmade items ourselves we see this so regularly that we got a sign made up in Chinese that we display and as soon as they appear the sign comes out and we start ‘tapping’ it 😁
Completely agree with you Paul. I'm not too proud to admit that I can't afford to buy the better brands new, but I've kitted myself out with s/h top branded gear from eBay, fb marketplace etc, and they've served me well over the years. There's nowt wrong with good used gear.
i said in my latest video about green hiking my favourite wet weather coat is a Royal Navy Foul Weather Jacket, £20 secondhand. It's got the same sort of breathable layer as Gore-Tex, just not called that, and it works - I mean the Navy know and test wet weather gear! Miltiary stuff is a great bargain, if sometimes heavier.
@@harduphiker Totally agree, I’ve been using military sleeping bags for over 2 decades now. The one I use the most is from 1999 an MOD trial sleep system made by Carinthia but I got it for a fraction of the cost. It’s a lightweight 2 bag system with cotton liner that has often been used down to -20.c with no problems. Carinthia is a top brand nowadays and very expensive but you can get their sleeping bags cheap if you know where to look. Army goretex is very affordable and a good bargain buy.
This video really lifted my spirits today. Thank you. There is an odd feeling of flattery and disappointment when the knockoffs appear. Thanks for bringing attention to this issue.
Also it's not just Chinese companies that rip off other products. Vango have launched a very similar tent to the Lanshan 2, albeit worse because it's smaller and heavier. MSR's PocketRocket Deluxe is clearly "inspired" by the Soto Windmaster. The burner heads are remarkably similar.
Its everything isn't it, we don't need a choice of 100 drills for example, so many companies are making the same product just to get market share worth x amount
At this point Vango are just a marketing company. They don't make anything themselves any more. My current Vango F10 Hydrogen tent was made in China and I would expect by a generic tent OEM that slaps the Vango brand on any catalogue design they ask for. Design input from Vango is probably just asking for it in green.
Well, the Durston tents are a modification of the Sierra Designs High Route tents ... So ... And if Western brands want to maximize their margins by making their gear in Asia, seeing copies made by the same sweatshops that grind out their products is a natural consequence of the process. Want to reduce this problem? Make gear in Western factories. (Hint: They can't, because they'd have much smaller profit margins.)
@@cristiandifusion2172 why is Dan Durston copying (yeah small modification to the inner floor shape) Andrew Skurka OK, but the Chinese manufacturers copying Durston (with modifications to material) isn't OK?
Where the goods are made is irrelevant to those pirating products. They will simply buy one and tell their factory to make a copy. The ethical issues of sweatshops used by some brands are definitely an issue though. Tents with poles, even offset ones are not at all new, however the clever offset modifications is what makes the X-mid markedly and usefully different though. DD wouldn't have been able to patent his design , if it wasn't materially different from prior work in some way. Blatantly copying an entire design and using poor quality materials to pirate it isn't equivalent.
@@JeremyLawrence-imajez it's about manufacturing capacity. Western companies shut down factories in Western nations because Western workers got deemed too expensive and cut too much into corporate profit margins. Then they went to Asia where workers get exploited and get paid peanuts in comparison to Western workers and built factories there and taught those workers how to make products Western consumers want. And Western companies add significant profit margins to those products. When you do those things, you don't get to complain when those Asian factories make copies of those products and sell them to Western consumers at much cheaper prices. This is just how capitalism works. You don't get to take the profits without accepting the losses.
The cost of a well designed product is so much more than just labour and materials. Time & money has gone into the design, and it is only reasonable that this intellectual input should be rewarded. Also, consider your example of the X-Mid copy. That will only sell because also of the marketing effort which has been put in by Dan. To make a carbon copy of something without contributing to these vital part of the product production process is certainly morally questionable. Cheap items often appeal, but we can all stand back and ask ourselves - who has been exploited to make the item that cheap - be it a £50 tent or a £1 T-shirt.
I think this is an interesting point. My theory is that it’s because Dan has his name on the product. People feel connected to him because he answers people’s questions and has been an avid backpacker for years and active in online backpacking groups. People trust him. It’s still a very new company compared to some of the other ones. I’m sure the other companies could also be run by great people but when a company is older and isn’t as connected with a single person that people feel they know, it feels more disconnected and not like they are stealing the intellectual property of an individual. Really they still are, but it doesn’t feel as personal. At least that’s my theory.
I get why people buy the cheaper tents ,budget or occasionally camping etc, but for me when I’m going out camping, I want to know that the shelter I take with me is going to hold up to the elements, and not have poles break or stitching come away because of poor quality control, not that it couldn’t happen to an expensive tent but there’s probably more testing and thought gone into an original designed tent, like the xmid you mentioned or a hilleberg or terra nova etc, like you said all depends how often you’re camping and where you’re planning to take these shelters, atb Mick👍
Without the big brands investing in pioneering R&D, developing next generation performance fabrics, there wouldn’t be anything to copy. I try to back the brands as much as possible, whether that’s equipment such as JetBoil and Trangia, or clothing such as ME or Montane.
My third comment lol... some of the Chinese companies are actually really good. 3F UL Gear is kind of the Chinese Durston. It was started by outdoor enthusiasts in China, and the Lanshan tents are great. You reviewed one of their recent designs, which is a bit different so they're trying to innovate too. Then there's Trekology, as you say they've kind of ripped off the Helinox chair but they also have products like the UL80 which are unique. It's still the most comfortable I've used and it's been going strong for almost four years. Their pillows are super comfortable too, but mine burst. Their warranty support was amazing, they shipped me a new replacement quickly. It was a much better experience than I had dealing with Cascade Designs warranty claims for a Thermarest mat and MSR stove. I simply refuse to buy Cascade Designs products ever again after dealing with their awful Irish subsidiary. So I guess what I'm saying is China is a mixed bag like anywhere. Some companies are great, and some want to sell you junk with no support at all.
Great, thought provoking video Paul. It’s about time that we as outdoor enthusiasts discuss and fully understand the issues that surround our pastime. The more we are informed the better choices we can all make and also bring about positive change, such as cheaper prices from the big brand names. Would you be up for discussing issues like this now and again, might be good for a podcast? Our past time needs to be fun and not too serious but I think most of us want to do the right thing whilst not being ripped off.
Great àdvocacy for Dan. Those privileged enough to be able to afford the real thing (including myself where I can) should definitely buy it. Otherwise innovation, progression and advancement will die. It's also great for our own economy to support local businesses where we can.
Chinese Diesel heater is a good example…I think you bought one, and I own one. A huge price difference between the Chinese heater and the genuine item though
Sierra designs also have a very similar tent with the high route 3000, granted it's slab sided and does have some differences but it's very similar. For me it depends on the product, when it comes to tents and bags I'd also go with the bigger brands, I don't want a tent that states 5000HH that then leaks in mild rain or a bag that's rated to 0* that I'm freezing in at 5*. I do however have a Trekology ul80 Matt that I love but once again, I wish I'd opted for a sea to summit or Nemo tensor as the R rating is much higher and better equipped for all conditions.
Unfortunately to many people don’t like the ethics of “rip offs” especially when it effects cottage companies but then buy them anyway. Until the community stops providing a demand for these products individuals and companies will be loosing out to inferior manufacturers
When I was about 10 my parents bought my brother and me a Robert Saunders Backpacker S tent each and they performed amazingly for years. Was ultra light for the time and reliable. I actually still have it but not used for a long time. It started my love for quality gear. I’ve been married for 34 years and bought a Rab down jacket before that so around 36 years old and still have it and it still gets used and keeps me toasty warm. Point I’m making is buy a quality product and it will pay itself off with performance and longevity. 👌🏽👍🏼
Well said , but as RU-vidrs maybe as a whole you should think about what you are reviewing and what effect it will have on the market and especially small companies like Durston who has literally made the biggest change in tent design for ages ! Also your favourite Terranova is made in China 🤷♂️
Terra Nova's high end tents are made in the UK, there's even a category on their site to browse only British-made tents. Of course these are very expensive as manufacturing in the UK is more expensive than in Asia.
People will buy what they can afford. If the UK and International bodies keep allowing the sales of cheap Chinese knockoffs, then what can you do? Business is business. I will always buy the best equipment I can at the best price I can.
On point. The only thing I would bring up is big brands copying other brands also. For example, the MSR Tindheim, which looks very much like a HIlleberg Nallo. It looks nothing like their traditional dome shape designs. Rip off. The only way you can protect yourself from this type of copying is to position yourself as a premium brand with premium materials (Hilleberg do this with their their Kerion fabric), and produce version improvements (v.1.0, v.1.1 with slight improvements). Really hard to achieve. But I know which brands i trust in the mountains.
So, you have a few points there. I do have a cloud up 2. What a tent, especially for beginners or budgets. Im also about to pull the trigger on that bloody Nortent you showed us. Like you say, very, very different build quality, and pricing, and except for seriously bad weather, they both do the same thing. I do understand the way dan must feel. I've invented a type of heated clothing that nobody anywhere has thought of, it literally gets to 50°c in a -10°c environment(amongst other features). I backed out of trying to produce it because i cant afford the patent and it will 100% be reproduced in China... I'd already spent a fair amount building the prototypes and getting it safety certified. Its quite a frightening prospect to think you will be openly robbed and nobody can anything about it For now, i just have to make do with being one of the only people wearing one...
There's a lot of camping gear snobbery in the wild camping/outdoors community not everyone can buy a £1000+ tent or cooking equipment/ sleeping systems that costs a fortune when you can buy cheaper.. a lot of people that watch your channel use budget gear and tune in for your reviews and adventures don't bite the hands that feed you.. it's great to have the option to get similar spec gear for a fraction of the price....
Talk about the pot calling the kettle here!! Paul you have brought us videos of more 'copies' than probably anyone on RU-vid over the year's,jeez i can't believe what im hearing here 😂
Thank you for the soap box food for thought. Well said. I waited six months until I had more money saved to get the Durstan. I think the biggest driver is the instant culture wanting something now rather than saving a little longer and buying that which truly deserves to be bought.
Several years ago I was camping on the south west coast path whilst walking it and got stuck in a very windy and wet storm at St agnes head by morning the tent poles at one end of my msr hubba nx had broken in 2 places and consequently torn the fly sheet open. Needles to say that the tent was rendered useless so had to stay in St Ives for a couple of nights whilst my partner at the time sent me another tent from my collection 😊 . On completion of the walk I contacted msr by email and sent pictures and was pleased to get a response. They asked me to send the damaged part to be examined. I made it clear I was not blaming the tent or the workmanship that went into it I was just hopping They maybe able to help me by selling me the parts I needed to turn this mess back into the proud little tent it was before the storm. I was very happy when I received a parcel from them containing all the parts including a brand new fly completely free of charge. Try that with ur ally baba shit😊
Although I had short-shrift from UK company Regatta (Craghoppers), whose returns process for a carbon trekking pole that broke after 8 days of use, and was obvious manufacturing defect was painful and a nightmare. I actually get better service from Chinese or eBay sellers than UK companies. I can't remember ever getting good customer service here? It's always 'we don't believe you' and trying to get you to pay more to rebuy it or charging to send it back...
I try to buy local as much as I can. And I try desperately to avoid Chinese crap-even though they are always the top choices on Amazon! I agree that consumers are in a pickle, especially those of us on tight budgets, but we all need to keep trying. The major brands need to listen, too, as I would rather support them than China-but there isn’t often a product line for my budget. Why don’t we work together and keep good brands going AND consumers wallets happy, too? Some brands do have, “good, better, best,” options. Maybe more companies can do that? I hope they are listening, Paul. Thank you as always.
Having spent 35 plus years in retail, also creating my own brand, seen first hand the time and cost it takes to get soemthing to market, taking a risk. I get a little miffed when I see rip offs from China, Just look at the Ebikes catching fire now as one example of quality. Buyt the biggest myth is the profit. I heard it all, Oh yopu must be super rich, you must make a fortune selling bikes for £5000, just look how much this coat is, you must be making a lot of profit. Trouble is, most people don't know the time, the other companies in the chain before it gets to the customer. Each has to make a profit. Apple are one of the very few who control their RRP and yes make a good profit but it all goes back in. I make my own bikes, I see the journey of the components, the time, it takes, the wages to all involved, before you HOPE, you sell it and make some money back, then of course you have to have money to continue, you have to pay the overheads, supply items for promotion, which very often in my experience doesn't pay the cost back, but you do it anyway. China has killed a lot of brands, Amazon also has eaten a lot of brands as it takes chunks out of the profit margin, let alone eats every type of business there is, as it expands into every avenue of our world. Think back to pre-internet, we made products that lasted and sold them face to face, you new the company that made it, they were often in the same country so you could call then if you had a problem, and in fact go nd see them. Obvious the world has changed, mainly for the worse as we all demand more and more and want to pay less and less. We no longer keep anything for long as the following year another one arrives to make what you have appear out of date. So to get back you your question Paul, No, we should not buy any rip offs, we should value our products, if its expensive we should do as we used to and, SAVE UP! Contrivial I know haha. Anyway, sorry If I've gone on too long but, its a topic that has had an effect on me many times. Great video Paul and needs talking about.
It won’t affect Durston tent sales, as anyone that is buying his tents wouldn’t even consider buying cheap nylon tents that will sag and fail. If anything it should drive people to his quality product more.
@@johnfarthing7466 cheaper always seems attractive until it fails. Sil nylon will be saggy as hell, so won’t have any structural rigidity. Don’t waste your money. I appreciate everyone’s budget is different, but the only thing that protects you is the tent!! If you only camp in summer conditions and no wind then why not
Ive got 4 tents currently, most of which are sil nylon and non of which have ever failed! Would you tell someone thinking of buying a Nordisk tent, Terra Nova, Alpkit etc to not bother because they are made of Sil nylon??
@@johnfarthing7466 no as I have a TN pioneer2. Perfect tent, but there’s more to it than just the material name. This knock off wont be the same quality, tested strength and it’s a trekking pole tent so needs to be solid and very strong guy out points. Just because it looks the same, definitely doesn’t mean it will be the same
@@thebikepackingadventurer my Sil nylon Lanshan 1 and 2 haven't been saggy as hell? Not if you tension them properly. Also just went out in the Lanshan 2 in 5 degrees C last week, fresh breeze/moderate breeze, going down to 1C with windhill. I was fine.
I agree with everything you say, and it's sad when someone can copy such a unique design like Dan's tent in this example. But I'm not convinced that affects sale's figures quite as much as some people make out. I don't believe there are many people who would buy Dan's tent but choose the knock off instead. The vast majority of people buying the knock off couldn't afford or simply not willing to spend that kind of money on the original anyway. So I don't think the two areas of the market affect each other all that much
Dont you think that the x mid is incredibly similar to the sierra designs high route that was out before the x mid though? Lets face it, everything is a variation on some predecessors design, theres very little truly authentic gear out there and as has been said, if you cant afford the real version it gives an opportunty to those people to get something similar.
I would not trust some of the Chinese products available in some of the UK conditions. However I do agree that the prices should come down if the branded companies want to compete or tempt customers to spend with them. Personally I don't have a problem with second hand but that's me. Cheers Paul
I've encountered the same issue with ham radio accessories. I paid top dollar plus import costs and VAT for some aftermarket accessories for a big-brand US radio, which were hand made in US by a guy running a business from his garage. I was happy to pay for bespoke design and workmanship and support the guy. A few months later I noticed identical products from China popping up on eBay for a fraction of the cost. They've put the genuine guy out of business and also destroyed the resale value of those parts if I should ever sell the radio on.
Go back to Victorian times (yes a long time ago, but in historical terms not really that long) and the USA did not recognise patents, copyrights or trademarks from the UK. Their main industries started by making cheap knock-offs of British products. What goes around comes around.
Some Chinese gear makers are good , 3F UL and Naturehike but the majority make poor quality stuff which is dangerous in the Backcountry. Thermorest is a US manufacturer who has never let me down and does not charge stupid prices. Another one is Equinox, great tarps, solid stuff sacks made in the USA.
Its the retail shops that miss out , they have to display the product ,employ people , lease a building and service a warranty. no one is getting "rich"
where as I agree with the sentiment of not blatantly copying other designs, I would and probably will buy this. The quality of the Lanshans and naturehike brands has caught everyone by surprise and im willing to bet this isnt half bad.
Well said! They copy the Trailstar too. It boils my blood a bit....I can't support these copies at att or at least very much try not too.... Enjoy trip with Sandy. Say hello I hope to camp with him next year 😊
So many American companies send their designs overseas to be made to save on labor. They are actively giving the plans to the Chinese. I recently saw where Master Lock (padlocks) were apparently moving production to China after 100+ years of manufacturing in the US. It’s not camping related but you get the idea.
Terra Nova had an asymmetrical backpacking tent 20+ years ago the Solar Minor (not a trekking pole design, a single pole). I still have mine, I did a bike tour along the Wales coast line with it last summer.
The knock off versions are regularly better quality though...Soulo Stoves are better quality than Bush Buddy. Hilleberg may be great in snow and wind but have quality issues with leaking, and very bad condensation which at Hilleberg prices imo means they are crap tents. Then there a lot of Ytubers who will say any old crap is good because of their freebies//
As usual I agree with you mate. Dan Durston is a cottage industry guy with a kid who is getting ripped off now. He isn't overpricing unlike some other North American brands. I do agree that brands such as helinox and MSR are a bit expensive and gouging but their clones are probably coming out of the same factory using cheaper materials. Me, I support the wee independent brands like Durston and speedster. I also prefer trangia., made in Sweden. Knock offs do have problems. Stitching, vents, poles etc can all cause problems in the long run and it will end up in landfill.
I just bought a stove off Speedster! Great stuff, works brilliantly on my first stealth camp last week. I don't know who invented that kind of stove though, I think it wasn't Speedster, or X-Boil, or as I wrong thought Trail Designs with their Kojin. Stoves are another world of copying....
@@harduphiker Weird reply issues on YT.... I replied but it didn't go in the thread. I think that using a felt material to hold the fuel came in well before people were using stoves for sport or leisure. With speedster it is the whole system of burner, stands and shields and that they are made in the UK by one guy called Gary.
@@HM-gk3rq about double the price in the US! You might luck out and get one for £300-350 but usually they are around the £400 after taxes etc. The irony being, if they shipped from Canada, the Commonwealth would make it cheaper I think for the UK. Or had proper import into the UK, or even had a version made or shipped outside Canada/US, that would all be far cheaper than US shipping. I don't buy from the US, like many UK folks, it's eye-wateringly pricey.
I totally agree with you , I dont think this should be allowed when someone puts all the time and effort into a product and money for.someone just to copy it , im starting wold camping up and ive been building my gear up.slowly , ive only bought branded gear not high end but i do want something reliable for when I get out there
I have to agree Paul, i always go for the best quality I can afford, but some of the cheaper non-critical stuff suffices at times. I might of missed it in your video but if the lad could get a patent in the usa, why couldn’t he get one in the uk. Apologies if Ive picked this up wrong. Great videos by the way, yours and the solo summiteer are a good watch 👍
@@bihlygoat The EPO (European Patent Office) covers the whole of Europe (UK is still part of the agreement for now) so actually 2 patents would cover a massive part of your market
I agree on both counts. I purchased a Barber X Brompton bike package, Best of British, did the unboxing video of the bike and it was marvellous, when I did the bag unboxing, made in China! I was gobsmacked! This was on video, I took the videos down as I sent it all back. As for rip-off goods we all know buy cheap buy twice but in some cases it works but in many it’s disappointing. One of my subs said made in China is the British way of life! What the answer is I don’t know other we are all individual but we probably should take more interest in where things come from.
AGREE PAUL❤ But what gets me if an inferior fake dangerous gas boiler or child's toy etc. Gets intercepted by customs its destroyed and importers are prosecuted ?
Absolutely spot on! I used to work in the safety industry and almost every lithium battery fire (sometimes leading to death) was as a result of cheap, poorly made, counterfeit batteries or electronic products coming from the Far-East. Examples are hover-boards, replacement laptop batteries, vapes, tablets and mobile phones. Whilst the risk to life may not be quite the same with hiking/camping gear, it isn’t non-existent, but at the very least the customer is often ripped-off.
China can produce products of different grades. If you want safer products or products with better safety factors, just increase your budget. But as far as I know, customers tend to choose cheaper ones.
Hi Paul, I have a mixed view on Chinese products, today I have a super lightweight tee- shirt very quick drying £3.00 a absolute bargain, A few years back I bought a backpacking tent for a trip to Scotland, On the second night I heard a thud in the night, I got out of my tent to find the pole had snapped tearing through the fly sheet so I binned the tent and transferred to a camping pod, Had I been in a remote place I would have been in trouble. Kind regards Mark Shaw.
What is it exactly you’re saying? You’re saying the de valuing of a product by buying a cheaper version doesn’t sit right with you, then in the next breath you are saying that you buy these products as well, but don’t think you should be supporting it (but are you are)? Hard to know exactly where you stand on the matter. In my opinion the whole “gear junkie” issue is a wider problem, most of the stuff people think they need, they actually don’t. They are sort of talked into it by reviews and influencers, “influencing” them into buying stuff (the clue is in the name). Worse still lots of it has very little residual value, and very quickly becomes worthless. A great case in point is an Apple Watch, after 2/3 years they are antiquated junk whereas a decent mechanical watch will last for decades
Wow! Paul this is a really good debate. There is the intellectual property stand and the big business exploitation of labour stand as well. They say money is the route of all evil Paul. We are all part of this money game!
My argument about made in China is not the Chinese manufacturers and low prices for cheaper materials, its the big name brands getting stuff made in Chinese factories at low wages and selling to us at UK and US wages costs when they only pay those Chinese companies peanuts .
This video is solid. It shows your solid character and integrity. Durston wasn't the only tent innovater to suffer this. The Six Moon Designs had their designs (yup, plural) stolen and rebranded under Lanshan/Nightcat, etc.. In most cases the ever shrinking delta between isn't worth the savings and as you mention, you get an inferior product which often exploited what amounts to slave labor. You do make a solid point about high dollar items selling marginal goods at a high cost while exploiting cheap labor. I have no problem with that labor being used in order to reinvest into design improvements and customer service, but when it isn't (think Nike, etc.) and products remain expensive for no good reason, there's often better options to utilize.
Have you ever thought of reviewing any Robens tents? I’ve heard great things and thinking about a purchase. I think some bad weather reviews on them would be great given they are meant to rival the ‘Bergs in terms of strength and durability.
I don’t think I’ll be reviewing any more products. I just want to focus on getting out camping. As always I’ll use the gear that I like to use but won’t be reviewing it. Odd comments and opinions but that’s it.
Its a valid point you make Paul, you do get what you pay for. For myself i am on a limited budget, so as much as i would like to I cant always go straight to the top notch kit, Ive bought cheaper clothing items that's allowed me the leeway to purchase the more expensive Tents, sleeping bags. Whether its a £100 or £300 tent , the profits for these company s make as opposed to their workers wages is obscene. The fact that some of these high end name items prices are on another planet, as a personal purchase I cant justify the prices. Fully agree that these countries with cheaper labor shouldn't be allowed to copy the better quality stuff and steal ideas. Were are probably all guilty at some point of unethical purchases.
Hi Paul, I'm not dissing you in any way, but every time you all do a review of "equipment", don't you think that the big manufacturers haven't already thought of responses, and have planned to do the 'upgrades' on next year's improved "equipment" ......adding another 'hike' (pun intended) in already high prices!! Dog eat dog, it might actually result in a more realistic price from the big manufacturers? I've watched your channel for just over a year, and look forward to new reviews and wild camp videos, there is always ideas and tips to be picked up from you all. Thanks and stay safe. 🍻👍
Overseas manufacture is a mixed bag - Paramo gear would potentially being doing less good were production in the UK, and many big brands may pay more attention to QC and staff conditions than others when producing overseas - but rarely do we get to find this out.
The big thing for me - and my line of work is similar to your old day job - is that we in the UK know that these copy goods and big brands are made in factories that the H&S and environmental standards may not be as rigorously enforced as they are here in the UK and other European countries. Is it sustainable in the long term? Well, it seems to be from a purely money perspective and us in the UK continuing to purchase these items I do think that some of the so-called top brands do over charge. Specialist gear I can understand - sort of. And I know that innovation, research, and development do cost. Or maybe they over charge knowing that within a couple of years sales will plummet as their designs and hard work are copied without credit or payment. Is it possible to but only UK/European manufactured gear? One issue is that there are very few factories in the UK that can produce goods in high quantities in a short period of time to meet the 'just in time' mentality retailers have and instant delivery we consumers demand. A difficult question and maybe on a future podcast you could invite people to be interviewed from the larger UK based outdoor gear brands to discuss this very issue?
It’s been an interesting debate mate. There’s been fair arguments from both sides. I knew it would start a few conversations which is surely a good thing. 👍🏻
#soapbox! Yes!!!! My sister tripped on her Cross Canyon2 tent from REI and it ripped all the way down the side. No warranty what-so-ever. We just had to chunk it the garbage.
I like quality gear, but a lot of that quality gear is over priced and a lot of that overpriced gear is not really good quality. I will be buying the X-mid very soon for my spring summer tent
here in Indonesia, top brands such as TNF etc sell their tents at 3 millions rupiahs or even more, while Chinese copies only in 1 millions price range. You can guess which one now that has conquered the Indonesian market ..
Yep your right Paul. But if it’s right it’s right. Just brought a knock off Soto stove it’s fantastic ! 🤷♂️ I feel bad but would I have brought a real Soto ? Probably not.
Nail on the head with, companies needing to go with more sensible pricing. But equally, it’s not nice to see blatant/almost exact rip offs. Whether it’s a family business or a major company, they all work hard. That said, I think most of us have stuff that’s probably copied from another product. My Firemaple stove is brilliant, but I know what it’s based on. Another stove I have (Buelin) is, I’m fairly sure an exact copy (or made in the same factory) of one of the fishing company stoves, just a different etched logo and a 3rd of the price. Then there’s the major companies copying each other, fishing kit, outdoor kit. The insane prices for some of the outdoor clothing. The insane prices of some of the fishing gear. The insane prices of cycling gear and bikes. For some it’s either buy the cheaper version or don’t have it at all. It’s a tough one. Gary B
Love your vids Paul... I spent most of my working life in the outdoor trade so I have an understanding of how it all works. You mentioned how the big brands could cut their costs and yes they could by spending nothing on marketing, paying professional outdoor athletes and selling direct to the public. A large amount of the cost of a product can be taken up by those costs. Also without that marketing we probably wouldn't buy the product as we might not know about it and lets face it a lot of the outdoor community are suckers for a brand name. Ive been to china and i know that some factories who make products for the big brands with their logo used to then carry on the production line without the brand name for their own home market. Some of this stock will be reaching our shores these days. The end cost in a retail store has very little baring on the cost to produce a product. As for copies, well we used to call it parallel development back in the day 😂😂😂
I hear what you’re saying about the livelihoods of owners of cottage brands and whilst this is admirable and I agree, it is a good point you make Paul, but there are plenty of folk out there whose household incomes have gone down and whose mortgage or rental cost have gone up, who simply don’t have the money to spend on the types shelters we see people goin crazy about on RU-vid. Please bear in mind, a lot of people getting into wildcamping as respite from life pressures can’t afford top notch gear but do still need to get out. Besides that - for the rest of us tentaholics, I really don’t think most punters will drop out firms like Dan’s in favour of far east knock-offs. I don’t think Zpacks have gone skint since lanshan2 pro came out. Not an ideal example, but I’m sure you get what mean.👍🏼
The 80/20 rule suggests that with Chinese copies of branded products, you can often achieve about 80% of the quality or usability for just 20% of the price of the original brand. Spending more on these copies, such as paying 40% of the branded version's price, doesn't necessarily mean you get a product that's twice as good as one priced at 20%. This is because the production quality of branded items and their cheaper counterparts is often similar, as both are made by factory workers with comparable skills and equipment, with the only discernible difference being that the branded version's factory staff aren't under as much time pressure, and this often leads to fewer defects in welding/stitching etc. The only time you see a stark difference in quality is when the item is manufactured in a wealthy western country like the US, Canada, Australia, Germany, UK, or Japan and Korea if it's in Asia...
Another great video Paul with a lot of very relevant points . I don't think Danny Durston will be too bothered by this crap the Chinese are selling as everyone who looks at it will research the original is it based on . I am guilty of giving Andy some stick about his video but I am still waiting for a reply regarding his criticism that the magnetic door tags are not fit for purpose - I don't think this is valid if you have only pitched this on the local cricket pitch - I have 30 nights in my Durston in all weathers and it hasn't failed me yet !! One last point - can you send me the Ali Express link for your new hat ???!!!!!
Chinese do and can make top quality products DJI for example, often they make what the buyer can afford. It’s all about price points, many companies go to china with a product and say I want this but cheaper, so it’s de specced ie thinner, cheaper materials a bit like shrinkflation that we have suffered recently. I would say Trekolgy is a brand and not fake it’s just cheaper a bit like ” I’d like a rolls Royce but I can only afford a VW “ . However I agree there is cheap Chinese poor copies for sale everywhere. Just research what you are buying and check all the options. 🍄
You are a wise person! ! What you said is quite correct. Many people often only have a budget of $1 and want quality for $10, which is unrealistic. If you want $10 quality, pay $10.
When I first bought my Lanshan 2 Pro from 3ful, I was immediately confused because then I watched someone on RU-vid use a MIER Lanshan 2 Pro and had no idea what was going on with manufacturers and who invents the designs first.
Richard Outdoors designed a fantastic stove. He's a one man band and struggles to make money from his idea. He recently posted saying he's given up due to China copying his design and he can't compete with the price. If you want to expand on this video, I think an interview with Richard would be very interesting.
Paul Patagonia has and does ensure fair wages& working conditions for the staff in it global factories. They’re also the original driving force behind. Recycled fleeces, swimsuits from old fishing nets. Organic cotton for its clothing.
Always contentious, here are some thoughts. The big guys do charge to much for branding IMHO and some are guilty of restrictive practices in the market. The small cottage industry guys have to charge more to survive as they do not have the economies of scale. Some of this stuff that is being copied is no longer copyright, it has run out. With the Dursten Xmid, in fairness it is not the first off set trekking pole tent. Inspiration may have been taken, and no doubt the design was improved upon, hence the ability to patent/copyright. The budget Chinese gear is probably not stealing sales from the makers of the higher cost items. Different market, and different customers. However the budget gear does make it more possible to enter the hobby/lifestyle and overtime some will move up to the higher quality gear. Ultimately, everyone knows that their designs can be copied, unfair but a fact of doing business in the modern global markets. People who go into business are, or should be, aware of this and make their business plans accordingly. Just my 2c
It's alway about budget. Buy cheap buy twice, but even that can work out cheaper! Good boots, good hard shell then most other stuff can be bought in Aldi, Decathlon or end of line stuff at Sport Pursuit. The outdoor magazines are full of reviews of kit which is eyewatering expensive and unless you are hiking, cycling etc daily in the highland winters why bother. There are principles at stake but ......
This debate is about ethics and practicality. Ethics is a personal thing. In a capitalist world driven by money there will always be people happy to use the creativity of others (but not their expensive mistakes) for self enrichment. Pharmaceutical companies spend mega millions developing and testing different drugs, many of which never go to market. The cost of a drug is all in the research and development, not in the cost of the ingredients, so if someone copies only their breakthrough products they do it at much lower cost. If these rip offs undermine the profit of the original there won’t be future r&d into drugs. Same is true of the Brompton bicycle design as for tent designers. Only way to combat it is to focus on quality and keep innovating to stay ahead of the copycat producers.
I’ve just read through lots of the comments which has been very interesting with a lot of valid points from both sides of the debate. However there is one very important point that seems to have been generally overlooked: and that’s what kind of conditions are the people making all this camping equipment experiencing? Whether it’s expensive or cheap we should be able to see if the people producing these items are being treated fairly. Then we can make an informed decision. Can we not have some kind of “fair trade” standard for camping equipment? Personally I’d rather not have a tent at all if it means I have contributed to someone working in poor conditions and having a crap life. I’m sure I have done as at the moment there is little opportunity to know if I am or not. I am sure that ethical doesn’t have to mean expensive and that we can all have what we want without others suffering as a consequence of our actions.
I also posted this in backpacking UK channel on this tent. I feel a little bit like it’s a bad deal for Dan Durston, his tents look awesome and his design is clearly being copied. But there are reasons I feel totally fine buying knockoffs. With regard to his tents, there’s one issue that really bothers me. Like me, he lives in Canada in BC, so he’s basically a Canadian making a Canadian product. When I was inquiring about buying one, (I emailed him directly about it through the support email address) he was friendly and nice enough, but he said he couldn’t just sell me one and ship it to me in my city in the same province. The tents are manufactured in China or Viet Nam, shipped through a distribution center in the US, and when it gets back to Canada, I have to pay GST, PST and duty plus a brokerage fee. Granted I would pay GST and PST either way. Considering the company is here in my home province and I have to pay more for it than if I was in America, really annoys me. I have to pay $395 CAD for the tent. $71.10 duty at customs, $55.94 PST and GST. $522.03 is the total cost of the basic X-Mid 2. I’m pretty sure there is also be a customs brokerage fee on top of this. Yikes. I’m not rich by any means, but I love hiking and camping. If I can get something cheaper that has decent quality and a more affordable price with most of the functionality, then that’s something I will absolutely consider.
The big western brands are a ripoff too in many cases, especially when the products are made in SE Asia. Up to £175 for a 1 pot camp stove???? If the brands were less imaginative with their pricing and marketing, maybe we'd tend to buy less from Ali. It's also quite surprising how many of us make endless excuses for the high pricing!! Turkeys and Christmas??
I'm an Engineer and I'm biased, Chinese stuff tends to be a bit shonky in my line of work and it kinda comes through on other stuff. I do understand price points etc but I personally would rather save up and pay for say a down jacket that's codex approved, tbh I'd buy synthetic before cheap down, or a tent where the guy or gal that's built it is on a decent few quid per hour. I think we need to get away from this cheap throw away culture that's developed in the last few years, not just in this community. I'd sooner but very good kit second hand than some of the poorer stuff available. There's plenty out there, give it a second life
Chinese factories can have multiple product quality standards! If you want good quality, you just need to increase your budget and give it to the factory. However, often many customers pay for the low-priced grade, so the quality you have will not be high-end. Price determines quality. Do you want to pay $1 and get $10 of product quality?
The thing is not everyone can afford the real thing I really want one but it's just alot of money but it would get used I have had the lanshan 2 pro for years and love it. But yeah I dont think if you don't agree with the x mid copy you should be happy using any of the Chinese versions of stuff you use
It’s globalisation Paul it’s impossible to compete as a small business with international market forces, you make a good argument but ultimately the public vote with their wallets, they don’t care about the IP. Also the Asians wouldn’t have the know how in the first place, if European companies hadn’t been exploiting Asian labour costs and having their products manufactured overseas.
