What I'm most worried about is nerfs that change what tank identities are in the game. That is why BDK nerf seems over the top. If everyone's self heals go down, fine, but if BDK gets over-nerfed and are no longer the best self healers then it ruins the identity that players have come to enjoy in that spec. A BDK is just a worse veng DH at this point if DH overtakes them in sustain
Biggest issue I have with all this is this weird narrative that tanks were soloing and timing the dungeons . And that 4 dps keys were the norm done by everyone. It’s just disingenuous, high end players view is distorted because you play with people who don’t miss kicks, who don’t miss stops, who pop defensives on the right time that’s why you see 4 dps keys because all the extra damage that can go out, doesn’t. I don’t mind a tiny nerf but creating this weird narrative that tanks were single handily clearing the dungeons solo and 4 dps was the norm is just nasty and needs to stop
This is so true! I dont know why this narrative is being pushed so much by several different sides. There are literally a couple of groups running high keys without a healer and thats it.
I have never once seen a 4 DPS key listed on live servers and in MDI it absolutely makes sense to run with 4 DPS. You have 5 professionals that this is what they do for a living, trying to do a timed event as fast as possible with the most damage, and they're doing keys at like HALF the level they normally play at. What do you expect them to do? People act like no healer keys are a thing, they're absolutely not. And they haven't been for all of DF.
Tbh, even calling it "4 dps" is not really correct. It's more like "3 and a half dps" due to aug going with a healer-y gameplay. You're correct in saying that the amount of damage is lower when everyone is doing everything right, but even then they'd still require a healer. It's just that aug can do a lot of maintenance and then everyone's offhealing deals with whatever's left. So people aren't really going 4DPS NO HEALER, but rather they're going with an aug instead of a healer, which is something else entirely.
This is not true for all tank specs this is not true for most tank players. This is you taking something like season 3 demon hunter and claiming it as if it represent all tanks. Or you are looking at max geared tanks doing content too low for them and thinking that represent what tanking is at the right level.
thats not a reason to nerf tanks. fix dungeons mechanics - prune DPS defensives and healing, reduce one shot events and make more unstoppable lower impact events. cleave healing, hots etc for the tank 90% of the time was good enough. everyone wins if everyone's having fun. with this change i want to play neither my tanks nor my healers because i LIKE minmaxing my DPS as a healer while keeping others alive where possible. U may have a different opinion and thats fine but i have now taken myself out of the tank n healer pool for the 8-14 key range. u may have done the same in prior seasons so your view may be as valid as mine. So the fact that blizzard can't make us both happy is their failure.
@@crazyphoenickss well i know for a fact you have no idea about tanking then. Go get a tank with appropriate gear for the content and not over geared and do it.
@@havtor007 I have each tank geared this season, and currently 3.7k on my main dh. Every single tank can survive fully on their own this expac, up to quite high key levels (like 18 and above)
Equinox is a HORRIBLE tank to test these changes out with. You are basically going "lets see if this works on the top 0.01% of tanks and see how they fair" If there were times you had to struggle to heal HIM, the rest of the community is going to feel it ALOT more.
I specifically said it on bdk and how this footage was from before they reverted some bdk nerfs. On other tanks, like the prot war (something he doesn’t have nearly the xp of monk) it felt find
He is a way above average tank so the impact and you had mentioned dorkie again another way above average tank. Imagine the impact on the average tank now. Not good
And on Brew, the one tank that clearly came out ahead of this. Better armor, more stagger, more magical stagger. Legit the things they have been asking for. And why is the talking point of "content without healers" even coming up as a balancing issue? Just lock the key to 3 dps. In BFA beta people were running double healers and we blocked them from doing that. Don't go through this back and forth about how to balance AROUND that situation. Just delete the situation.
This argument doesnt really hold up. “Your average tank” isnt doing the same keylevel as Equinox/Dorki either. If a great healer can keep a great tank alive on a high keylevel than an average healer can keep an average tank alive on an average keylevel. The tank damage intake you see here is not the same intake an average tank takes on a +4
@@AutomaticJak yeah I retract my comment. I was just salty after a bad experience. It's actually been totally fine. Just need some dungeon tuning and no more hpal nerfs
I usually tank, but healing is my second biggest role. I tried to heal a blood dk in s3 in a 17 tott who I had to spam heal or he'd just fall over. I'm like, I've been playing blood dk since its current incarnation in cata, and I can't fathom what it is you are doing. Bad tanks are bad.
Thank you for mentioning that Blood DKs still felt squishy. Reading the changes, it seemed like they nerfed the heck out of our self healing but didn't provide nearly enough armor/HP/DR to reflect the changes they actually want.
@@CB38096 yes it is gapping the healer, however those mobs don't really do group wide damage and on top of that BDK got changed heavily, death strike only healing your most recent damage instance instead of the past 5 seconds feels really bad. Blood is still the best tank, but it feels like trash to play for ANYONE that's ever played BDK
if they really wanted Blood Dk's to be less spiky they'd buff "will of the necropolis" to be always active (like defensive stance is for warriors) instead of at below 35% health and/or give bone shield armor bonus equal or greater than demon spikes.
The moment you stated that you tested things out with equinox I took the rest as a grain of salt. Testing things with 1 of the best if not the best m+ tank in the World is nothing compared to what the average player will experience. Try and do the same tests with a random pug tank.
@@AutomaticJak Point still stands. The moment your feedback is taken from "data" collected through super coordinated and high skilled encounters with your teammates it becomes totally irrelevant for your average Joe who uses the group finder to join a +5-+10. Tanks with mediocre gear that join these kind of keys, as of now in DF S4, still require SOME heals from their healers and they are not some indestructible unit who can solo the whole dungeon.
Healers are acting like healing the Tank is fun and rewarding gameplay. It's not. Me pressing 1 button on a Tank when it's getting low is not enjoyable. That's not a fun damage pattern, problem to solve, or rewarding interaction. And according to you and Blizzard both, the tanks should still feel stalwart. So if the change is out of every 10 globals I spend DPSing or healing other players, 1 global is put on the tank. That's not engaging, not fun, not rewarding. I watch your Stream every day. I've heard a million times, "These changes are fine, it's not the end of the world." But you know what I've never heard you say? "These changes feel better, these changes feel fun. I think that gameplay has been improved." Because it hasn't been. This is the sort of thing that is fun for a healer. Coming up with unique combinations of abilities, and immaculate CD planning to solve interesting problems. Not pressing a button on a tank every now and then: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JGzjGVm8idc.html#t=2h22m10s I find it ironic you'll complain about DPS not using their kicks, dispels, or defensives so you have time to heal them then come in and say you think Tanks should be reliant on someone else for them being able to do their job. They already bear the full weight of the routing, most shot calling (on NA servers), a substantial portion of the stops and mechanics. And for most players its not even fun to play so they just don't ever want to play it, leading to the reason there's no tanks. If Tanks have fun not relying on someone else to keep them alive. Let them. Why is that a bad thing? That enjoyment they get doesn't come at the cost of my enjoyment as a healer. As noted above by you never once saying things felt better or that this change has been some game-changing improvement for healers. You're promoting a large change that is entirely reliant on Blizzard to tune it properly when there was no issue to begin with. Then coming in, in the same video, and talking about how they're not tuning properly on the Beta. This could just as easily be something done in any 11.X patch or in 12.0 if it's a "problem" they want to tackle and when they have more time and less active issues they want to address. Also the fear-mongering over 4 DPS keys is also hilarious. I have never once, in the last 1.5 years, over probably hundreds if not thousands of keys, ever seen a 4 DPS key in Queue. Then you go and cite things like MDI. Well jeeze, maybe 5 professional players doing a timed event at half the key level they usually run at won't need a healer. If they did, then healing probably feels terrible overall because if they need a healer in those scenarios that means people are being absolutely deleted by dungeon mechanics in dungeons way below their skill level. A lot of Hypocrisy going on in this video and on your takes. You can be in favor of a change but agree that it's not the right time to do something, or that execution is lacking. I know it's fun to be contrarian though.
You should worry, because nobody will want to play tanks now. The sole reason people are drawn to tanks, is because they have full control over their life. If they die, it's 99% on them. Now they get dependent on that random pug healer. Most discords i've been in, people were gonna swap to dps if this shit would not get reverted. Same with a lot of people who like to dps, feel they'll be forced to heal because the onus on healers also means the bad ones.. are going to be really bad. Now i can cope with a bad healer, cause i can cover for it.. but it feels like that won't be the case going into TWW. All in all, healers are already going to overburdened by the dungeon bloat, melee is getting extra spicy because of all of the crap in there, now they going to make the tank have less agency? Personally i want to work together with my healer to make sure the dps arent dying, not feeling dependent on anyone. Watch m+ get even more toxic and elitest...
Likely more than a few "healers" are too used to doing big dps numbers and will still prioritize their dps over healing. Been long enough for the bad habit to be ingrained and they'll resent having to keep the tanks topped off now that our self-sustain has been nerfed so heavily. This is just bad all around for casuals wanting to do even low M+ keys since they are generally the ones dealing with PUG's.
As a healer main, there is absolutely nothing fun about having to slam single target heals into tanks, so I don't see how this makes our role any better.
You're a reasonable healer main though. There are some mentally unhinged piss casual healers who screech if they have to press a single damage button and can't just heal the whole key, so every time a pack doesn't do party-wide damage and doesn't endanger the tank, their smooth brains absolutely implode with aimlessness and ennui.
@@Frawthahaha love it man 😁 Most of the comments on MadSkilzz latest video on the topic are basically what you said, from healers who probably did not time their 10s this season… I get that it’s hard to balance gameplay for all types of content and levels, but healing tanks with single target healing spells as something horrendous to do surely is one of these things we should all agree on, isn’t it?
@@Frawt I get where you're coming from, and obviously healer players who instantly implode because they have/can to throw a few dps spells can't really be the guiding arrow of where the healing-profile should be at. But do you disagree that the healer role has kinda lost it's way throughout the years, where blizz has given more and more tools for especially tanks, to be selfsuficient in their role, in groupbased content? The trifecta should be reliant on eachother, that's the whole goal (from my perspective atleast) in an MMO - those players that really love being the sole hero though, are gonna love the delves kekw. else they can go play singleplayer games :)
@@Frawt plenty of healers in the +8 range who do 0 dps and have 90-100k hps and are oom yet things are dying. i dunno wtf theyre healing but it aint the party lol
prob should worry. we had a guild meeting last night for end-of-expansion discussion, and "what is everyone planning to play/main in TWW?" we have 4 people, in a guild of about 25 active players (we're like a first-3-bosses-in-Mythic level of guild, so a pretty low-skill guild tbh lol) who like to tank... and zero of them want to tank in TWW now one of our main tanks, as well as me, discussed blizzard's post yesterday about tank nerfs, and we both agreed the changes sound bad and that we don't want to tank now. well, saying that in front of the other two players on discord who also like to tank made them go "wait what changes?" so we took a few mins for ppl to go read the notes. then we picked up the discussion... and NOBODY in my guild wants to tank now. I have a 528 ilvl blood dk right now. it is GLORIOUS to play it. but in TWW? me and my 3 other guildies are saying NO to tanking. I do NOT want to rely on a healer to keep myself up. PERIOD! and none of my tank guildmates want to either btw, among our 4 tank players, we have 2 blood dks, a guardian druid, and a prot war/paladin (he plays both prot war and paladin)
Blood DK doesn't require that much of healing in the beta. I tried about 10 times the same dongeon and I did still 85-90% of my healing (meaning healers did the rest). But the nerf is definitely felt, 4-8 keys were harder to live than 16s in this season .
You hit the nail on the head. Those players who arent fully invested in WoW, walk in and get annihilated and just dont queue up anymore or stop playing all together. Tanks felt strong in DF which was a welcome change from shadowlands, but now I have this sneaking suspicion that if you arent a top tier tank or you dont have a top tier healer, you are in big trouble.
It's genuinely insane blizzard saw a couple groups play 1 tank 4 dps, and somehow came to the conclusion the TANK is the issue. Not that 4 dps can all somehow live a dungeon's damage without a healer
Just wanna point out that they tried this before in shadowlands and it went horribly. I'm down to let them cook, but they burned this recipe once already.
@@Aggrofool tanks are always going to have to pull big just due to the nature of M+ being timed content that scales infinitely. It's a game of efficiency, and its always more efficent to kill as many enemies as possible despite blizzard trying everything to get people to stop: ability bloat, target caps, nerfing tanks until they're too weak to stay in melee, forcing them to kite They've been trying to solve the issue since legion and nothing's worked. Even back in wrath before M+ even existed, players were pulling whole dungeons to AoE them down. I have my doubts this expansion will be any different.
AOE caps, nerfs to tanks, more casters and tank busters. Blizzard always fail because they try to micro manage top players at the expense of everyone else.
i love how he judges the state of a brewmaster and makes conclusions from playing one game with the best brewmaster in the world and he even compared it to other games with the same brewmaster main playing on alts
@@AutomaticJak like i said, Equinox is the best brewmaster in the world and has a completely different opinion and insight than you. He said on his stream that bear druid is a clear winner. I consider his insightful opinion is more valuable than yours
If you either A) Think Blizzard will neuter dungeons and raids to make up for this so that dps and healers are no longer constantly in danger of dying B) buff healers WAY more to allow them to heal everyone easily C) revert all of these stupid decisions or D) enjoy waiting for tanks and/or healers in the dungeon finder because there will be way less of them and then play a kiting meta that SL has shown people aren't thrilled with........ .... then yea, you shouldn't worry! Otherwise......
Your words and your video behind you tell a different story. Watching tanks AND dps AND you spike 90% of your health inside 1sec while you're saying that healing felt good seems off. Especially given the fact that the names of the people you're playing with means that you're playing with a number of high end players who are showing that even with EXCELLENT play, you all are getting spiked down HARD. This is going to feel "ok" for the upper levels of the community (though if you're going for title, get used to kiting), but for the rest of the community this is going to kill participation in M+.
@@AutomaticJak The problem coming down to, as you said, execution. I have zero faith, based on past performance (and admittedly, this isn't necessarily indicative of future.. but let's be real..) that they're going to tune very well for the first 2 weeks of season. Sure, they'll probably land on a good spot, but it's going to be miserable for the first week or two. They left these changes WAY too late in beta. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they'll get their act together.. but SL S1 and DF S1 launches.. But hey. We'll see, right? :) And I'm really trying not to be a doomer haha
@@fenix4653 These changes do not feel planned and thought out, but rahter like an overreaction to something recent. No way they do this at the end of the beta, when testing is basically done, and they have no time to tune dungeons and get ANY useful feedback. This could be done with enough time and work to make everything feel good and make tank healing matter again, but they have wasted their entire testing cycle and thrown a giant wrench into their game that the PLAYERS will suffer for in the live game until they can get it right (or just abandon it as they have many times in the past with foolish changes). These changes make most of the tank classes FEEL bad to play. Even if you can make it work and muddle through, this will make people want to play tanks less, want to do M+ less, and want to play WoW LESS. That's a BAD change.
I still feel like what these changes did is to move power (and by extension fun) away from tanks and over to healers. Most of us don’t want to be reliant on a pug healer to live, now that threat is irrelevant skill expression is in living - and now we cannot even when playing perfect live on our own. Right now, tanks lost power but still have the responsibility, which is just less fun. The deal felt more fair when tanks where OP, most powerful but most responsibility. So many top tanks look back to mop when tanks where insane as peak for tanking.
I agree with that, especially for low level tanking, when you need to learn the dungeon. It will be harder to know what went wrong when something bad happend. And i think the early season is overwhelming enough as a tank!
@@Aggrofool And this is going to be even worse, to achieve the same result, you will now rely on the tank healing by the healer, so i guess you agree that its bad ?
You're thinking "me me me me" right now. This is about fixing group balance in dungeons. Right now, tanks can solo bosses on their own and half of the dungeon as well. They can't change encounter design without modifying tanks. You need to be able to threaten tanks with rot damage and dying to get them to slow down, and by extension, the group. So example: Today, a tank can pull and easily survive a three group pull. So the tank is then expected to do a three group pull. The problem is that now you have THREE TIMES the damage on the non-tank group. So instead of two casters throwing around arcane bolts, you have six. If you have to save interrupts for high priority spells such as a super dot or a NPC heal, now there becomes a very real and significant danger that a dps or healer is going to be insta-gibbed by getting hit by multiple spells simultaneously that wouldn't otherwise be a danger. By nerfing the tank's self-sustain, now the tank has to pull one pack of mobs, and as a result, there are now a more reasonable number of things that can be countered by a group. If the tank pulls a second pack by accident, that's what cooldowns are for. This also helps shift some of the burden from inexperienced tanks back onto the group and healer. New tanks are having problems learning how to stay alive when the stakes are so high. When you have to memorize dungeon paths and pulls on top of learning how and when to use your cooldowns, that results in a lot of pressure. A lot of new players that want to get into tanking will be squeezed out, leaving a general shortage. There is a reason why we have a TON of tank specs, but not many tanks.
@@Scrydragon I think it will remain the same for experimented tank, they will pull what is expected to be pulled, except now the healer will be more responsible for his survivability. We can think of some cases we already now like "Temple of Jade serpent". Tanks used to rely heavily on heal for the 3rd boss. If case like this become the norm, i think it would be less fun for them overall. And about beginner tanks, they are already pulling slower and they already rely more on the healer than experimented one. To me it seems that it will be just more difficult for them. But i understand your take on this. Lets hope for the best :)
Finally a good take on these changes. As a healer main I'm sick of watching tanks winning because they can't be gods anymore on M+ on the expense of healer gameplay becoming more of a scuffed DPS with occasional spot healing. If I wanted to DPS I wouldn't pick a healer
No. If you want to call yourself a healer, you should dps, interrupt, cc, do affixes, buff people, combat ress, solve world peace, stop hunger in africa and heal when you have time.
Even if it's good in theory season 1 is going to be an unmitigated clusterfuck, there's no chance Blizzard gets the tuning on this right with only a few weeks before launch. I'm betting they revert a lot of these nerfs by S2 after key failures skyrocket
I don't really understand why many tanks are up in arms at this, it's confusing. The fact that I can go an entire key with never direct healing the tank is just silly. I also disagree with Jak at 19:30 when he talks about "only nerfing Tanks", because tanks are unkillabke now, DPS is not. I do agree that I wish they did this 3 months ago, then also removed defensives from every other class slowly over up until now, but this is at least a start and is sorely needed. Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good.
players got so spoiled with self sustain tanks that their priority was more dps than healing since prior to Legion. I agree bringing back healers that actually heal first then dps should come back. Players will follow MDI, and 99.9% they pick a self sustain tank (except when warrior was extremely overpowered S1 DF). the 99% think they are the 1% is the main problem. Players will get one shot at the beginning because they are speccing into their favorite streamer that is using dps capstones instead of survivability capstones.
because everyone else is watching those top players and want to bring that crazy mentality to keys that are meant for all public. that's my take anyway.
Its not about whether 'completing without healer' was the norm, it is about trying to alter the paradigm of what healing means. Jak has released a number of videos on the subject, and most healers seem to agree that healing in DF is not fun. Mostly because either everything's one-shots unless dps play perfect at high end OR you mostly just dps if everyone is doing okay at low end. From my experience, the majority of healers want to heal. They want the majority of their gameplay experience to be spent healing. In order for that to be the case, damage needs to happen to the group. While this is not a perfect solution, nor is it a complete solution, it is step 1 towards the solution.
The issue is still healers have to spend too much of their time doing DPS. This has reached a point where healer tier lists are determined by DPS, and M+ talent recommendations have DPS talents.
If I remember correctly Blizzard had the same goals for Dragonflight S1 and they failed. This will lead again to Tank/Healer combos who can not handle already midlv keys. There´s actually also a lack of healers (and tanks) and I don´t see the benefit to remove responsibility from the tank and put it on the healer's shoulders. And in parallel the rest is feeling as bursty as today.
Giving more onus onto healers to actually you know… heal is a great thing to be honest, but I do worry that the pendulum will swing too far and we will get another shadowland season one kite meta and as someone that likes to be just a big meat shield protecting my buddies running away for the whole dungeon feels bad.
@@CB38096 I did and I have read their patch notes, but idk at what key level kiting will be a thing because, I can guarantee it will at some point, hell it’s a viable thing to do even on live servers now. Their intention is good. But I don’t trust them to deliver on their mission statement. This is Blizzard
Ok fine sustain is a bit much on tanks now i can see that but i dont see how nerfing the damage reduction tanks will promote a playstyle where tanks are more reliant on healers as once you start reaching those higher m+ keys well be back to the ping pong HP bars and some tanks have small downtimes inbetween their defensives meaning theyll be very vurneable during those times... I just see so many problems with this direction. If this is the way they want tanks to be then keep the sustain nerf maybe even nerf it even mor but BUFF stamina and DR abilities to be stronger or atleast more consistent.
Something I'd not thought about (because that's the way it's always been?) Bliz starts the expansion with m+'s massively overtuned, then nerfs the rest of the exp. Yes, this does discourage the "casual" player. They wanna increase participation in m+'s? Start with an easier dungeon, get players hooked, then *increase* difficulty towards the end. That should encourage players to get better instead of quit.
14:24 Not gonna lie. I see footage like this, with Equinox (who is apparently a chad tier BRM) getting Yo-yo'd terrifies me. I like meaningful tank healing! This seems like steps in the right direction, but the tuning makes me VERY worried for PUGs in the M+ season. I think tank sustain definitely needed to be re=thought. But It's also extremely late to push these kinds of broad philosophy changes. I just worry blizzard isn't giving their designers or testers enough time to dial things in.
well just look at it this way: if ya had 20 deaths on your weekly no leaver pug key yesterday, now you will have 40 as a common number xD. it will definitely change the pug world.
As a healer now on live servers, in anything below +12s I just try do maximize damage because there are only specific places I need to heal. Do affixes and heal if people make basic mistakes. DPS trinkets, dps heavy talent build but then again, above 15s its just insane spike after spike. It goes from one thing to another, there is no between. Either easy or pretty hell-ish... But I'd love to be just a healer, not think about dps trinkets etc. Overall good take, Jack.
End of season power creep, everyone can have all bis gear. If this were true, why does every tank use cheat death trinket? This is an objectively bad take. But every healer only capable of subjective thinking.
@@TommyMcD Every tank in what key range? 15+ sure, below - why? And because in higher key range a mistake can kill you and you dont want tank to be on the floor. Its a nice "backup".
Trying to push as a near average player who only hit about 23 at the highest, and wasn’t that invested in doing more, I struggled with one shots. Always the one shots. We’d be completely fine, and then an unavoidable, massive dot would kill us, even with defensive. You needed multiple people to synergize their defensives to survive. I struggled with getting bis trinkets even running every week. There were so many DOTS and random one shots on tyrannical weeks that would ruin your entire run time. Losing a key gives you basically nothing. Every high fort week decimated my pug groups, but we just always ran back. It depended highly on the dungeon. Certain dungeons were just “no we’re not doing that.” Another issue I had is that most DPS don’t understand their class or rotations. They end up doing very very low dps and can’t get it up. Even playing with the somewhat same people for multiple years and they never improve. I want to know if there’s a way to directly make things more straight forward so players can do better damage. I don’t know though, they might just not be invested in learning the rotations and that’s why. However, I often find that the DPS rotations become very spammy, and no where near what they should be when you look at what the game ACTUALLY technically tells you what it wants. They become spams of one button + a cooldown. It’s very odd. I think dps trying to do the rotation that the game intends is what’s breaking their dps.
If people are STILL denying that there is bias in the dev circle then you havent been paying attention. Same classes getting buffs, same classes already strong as healers, getting stronger...priests are left in the mud. DPS still running around with self heals and walls while they nerf tanks....the ONE role I DONT wanna have to worry about. Who are you main-ing this expac Jack? #priestsdeservebetter
It's not the first time I've heard someone say that the role of a healer was not rewarding in Dragonflight. However, as far as I'm concerned, I played during seasons 1, 2, and 3... And I found that there were a lot of challenges to overcome. And with each additional key level, I regularly received compliments from other players, even though I always progress in full pickup groups, which to me was an indicator that healing role was not free. Maybe is it about 0.1% top players ? But it seems like a lot of healers feel that way so that's strange to me.
My issue with the changes arent because healers have to do more actual healing, but its that tanking and healing are pseudo blending together. What i mean by that is going into TWW tanks are going to need more healing since they wont be/will be less self sufficient, and this can feel bad going both ways. As a tank it would feel awful to die when you did everything you could but the healer just couldnt do anything, for whatever reason that may be. But it also is likely to feel bad when you have to slam hps into a tank doing everything you can, but they die because they arent doing anything right (I know this particular issue exists already as its just a consequence of tanks in groups, but its probably going to get worse in TWW with tanks needing more healing) I general i do think its a positive change for healers, but i think it is a pretty big gamble on the seasons tuning for how good it will feel
Cooldown based wow started with tanks back in 2016 when they added ignore pain and a billion other extra dr cds, and they've just leaned into this so hard for everyone now that there's no room for nuance. It's like an interactive cinematic where you are just supposed to hit x at the right time and the rest of the combat is automatic. I'd love to see everyone go back to like 1 defensive and max 2 defensives for tanks and remove like 80% of the mechanics that require those cds. Then we can increase overall hps requirements but nobody is getting one shot. If someone makes a mistake you get behind and have to slow down which runs you into the timer as opposed to spamming brezes and people just getting deleted and running back.
Your POV is only applied to premade groups with good players. Tanks in pugs on low keys play already horribly, in TWW they will demand healers baby sitting them and probably shouting at them when they die. Have you played cata heroic dungeons in pugs? It will be exactly like that.
Isn’t that the point of mythic plus though? It’s supposed to be challenging content. It’s not supposed to be something you fly through with no issues. So, adapt or die. If you don’t get better you can’t push higher, that’s how it’s supposed to work.
Thats fine, Blizz can't just tune the game for players that don't learn and won't adapt, if i have to get yelled at by bad players but that game is tuned properly i'll take it
Great video! I agree with practically all of your points. I had a thought watching this and had an idea. It doesn't necessarily fit the theme, but somewhat works in with something you said about one shots. Higher key levels has always been about defensive and such for the scaling damage, that makes it hard to remove defensives in general due to needing them later. What do you think about adding in a player health %scaling for M12 and above (or whatever level) that will make one shots not happen but still increases difficulty. Especially switching the need to have everyone always topped to survive a random single hit to the healer needing to focus more on healing to keep health pools going up, effectively increasing healer difficulty in a good way.
Equinox tho to be fair is one of the best brew. I wouldn't expect the same experience on average from BREW. Not at all. Even on live right now he can do a +16 like it's nothing. yet most people factually have not been able to get past 10 as brew.
When you have a team to play with, this change may even be less worse, but when you need to play in the pug lines, it will be horrible. healers are already bad assets and it took too long for one to appear. imagine now
No matter what side of the argument you fall on, I think everyone can unanimously agree that if people can bring 1 Tank and 4 DPS into a very high level m+ dungeon, then there is an issue with role balance. Something needed to be done and I’m glad blizzard is experimenting now rather than halfway into a season.
You are 100 percent right, I hate having to DPS as healer, and as for tanks demanding that they not be affected by the skillset of others in the group its insane, its an MMO if they want to feel like a god, and play an RPG, BG3 has a story mode difficulty that they can use.
If you pug a lot you’d know that dealing with potentially 4 other bad players sucks. Now being reliant on them for your survival isn’t a good change imo, tanks have enough to deal with, but because healers complain that tanks don’t need them now we get nerfed. Can’t wait for them to revert these changes in season 2 as they have the last few expac releases.
@@nofoxgiven6561 Where is the problem that the tank should depend on other 4 players? Aren't the other 4 players dependent on the tank? this is an mmo, play solo game if you want to play alone
Glad to hear someone not dooming about the tank changes. They seemed sensible to me, though I agree they will need to adjust the dungeons to compensate--but so many people are pretending that the tank nerf post didn't explicitly say they would be doing that.
The problem i have with this new philosophy is that it seems like espicially with bdk that it spits into the face of what the class is at its core. If they actually achieve their goal then we are just going to be playing a bunch of warriors and brew tanks no matter what spec you are playing. You also touched upon a bit of the pressure on tanks and i do apreciate that. Just a side note its kinda hard to take you seriously about tanks being fine when your playing with one of the best tanks i the world. Just flat out these changes are going to make pugging lower keys an absolute slog.
What was wrong with how bdk functioned prior to Legion? They did more healing the more damage they took too, but they were not at all self sufficient in current content. You can have a happy medium.
@@karlzone2 didnt play that expansion so i dont have an opinion on it. What indo know is that blood dk as a class design is designed to be self sufficient. They are incredibly hard to heal due to how they have horrible mitigation. If you take away their self healing what are you left with? They honestly just feel horrible now. I also dont want the game to end up with all of us playing, dead warrior, furry warrior, zen warrior, and demon warrior. The tanks are unique and fun to play because of their identity and this new plan feels like they are just trying to homoginize the tanks because they suck at balancing the game.
I still think they should've done all of this during DF season 4. All of the experimentation and questionable decisions would be ok now. Still, it will ruin season 1 of TWW for the new and returning players if Blizzard is rushing everything on beta.
testing it during season 4 makes no sense if hero talents and the massive health pools arent in the game, the season will be fine and ppl will complain as always
@@Jisei13 season 1 is horrible in most of expansions. Because blizzard rushes beta. Its not only that people complain. Its because if fact, blizzard is failing when launches the first content of each expansion. And this time will be no exception. Just see how myth + is working right now in Beta. Its a complete mess.
Casual player here. Im a bit confused in general by this step. Afak blizz said that healer are topping the group too fast (especially in raids). Now with the tank nerfs they buffed healers probably to have an impact on the tanks health pool. Doesnt this lead to even faster topping of the group in general? Isn't that contradictory or am I missing something?
For the majority of the player base I feel like this will make Tanking & healing less popular and make it even more harder for the casual player base since most the time they don't press their defensively at optimal times I would almost say for certain many average or even a little above the average tanking level in the game tend to press their defensives after the damage is going out and at level for healers don't realize when a tank need help in its gaps. And because of that it'll make it even hard for the 10 million dps to find or wait for the 12 tanks and 6 healers that are sane enough to play them already.
I’m really hoping that m+ with the new +12 changes make it so that keys aren’t as rough for beginners since they can just make 12s and up the “sweat zone”
@@AutomaticJak yeah I definitely hope it is something like that but if blizzard doesn’t cut back on the dungeons mechanics and tuning of them I honestly see this as just a HUGE L cause no right person will wanna be a tank or healer if just being a dps is overall easier and less stressful and return making them even more of a endanger role, I definitely could be wrong I like to consider myself in the middle of not too casual or the highest of keys for m+ but that’s just a problem I see with this
All i want from Blizz is for disc to do more damage than holy and for disc to be good enough in the public's eye that i can be invited to groups playing my favorite spec
The real reason why healers will soon need to take better care of tanks is another: tanks will go from being as rare as tigers to being as rare as pandas. When you find one, and finally fill the group you have been forming for twice as long as before..., you had better take a picture. And some reproductive material, while you're at it. Check that your Netflix, and Amazon, and Disney+ memberships and such are running, you'll be streaming a ton of movies this season.
Grim Batol being available on expansion release and dungeons being hard has a 100% correlation rate. Clearly nothing to do with class balance :) Ill keep a healthily suspicion on all things balance related until the 2nd or 3rd m+ week.
3:33 watching those health bars dip and rise and then slightly dip a little further than your mouse goes over it and it goes up even further is peak healer gameplay
Really appreciate your perspective as usual Jak, although you being able to already add perspective from testing absolutely lends it significant credibility. It will be interesting to see how it works for the average player though compared to yourself and the great players you have the opportunity to group routinely. I am hopeful the average person will find similar results when playing. You really bring up a some truly solid points concerning the various player roles in this discussion that benefit any player that might watch your content, I always love those insights. The discussion about dungeon related tuning that Blizzard continues to struggle at addressing in the time they should is going to be critical to keep this change from hurting TWW launch. I absolutely share in your disappointment in Blizzards decision to not prune, nerf or other wise address the gluttony of defensives across many but not quite every DPS spec goin into TWW. Now the dungeons are designed with them in mind and without a significant overhaul I suspect we are likely stuck with that failure for another expansion.
I like that they make changes to balance the game but I am really worried when they start making these kind of high impact changes only weeks before launch. Balancing the huge amount of specs is almost impossible and they really didn’t make it any easier on themselves by adding hero talents. I feel like season 1 if tww will be rough…
Yes! Bcuz currently we need to spot heal the tank with 5 spells if theyre in critical danger, now we will need way more healing sources for tanks. And spot healing got barely some ratio buffs
Unless they added the stamina weeks ago, I didn't see any 60% buff they were talking about in the tank notes. Both my lvl 70 and 80 tanks on beta stayed the same health this week (aside from minor talent changes). What i have noticed also though, is lvl 70 toons that are copied over to beta, have like 10% more stam and secondary stats on the Gear, as well as a bunch more armor. I found that weird and never talked about. For example, my 508 ilvl Prot Warrior on live has 62% armor DR , and on beta has 82%.
As a tank main, I disagree with taking away our agency. I'm concerned this will promote a kiting meta and make us too reliant on the healer for staying alive and less about our own skill. It's extremely satisfying to come out of a large pull safely because you cycled cooldowns correctly and played your class well. I'm a tank, I want to mitigate damage and have control over if I die or not. Rn 99% of the time you die as a tank is because you did something wrong. Pushing that more onto the healer who already has to do all the mechanics and heal the dps is not a good direction imo. I don't think every tank should be able to self sustain 100% and not need a single heal but in my experience doing 13s/14s in M+ the balance between needing to coordinate with my healer and being self-sufficient feels great. I'm also concerned this might make the tanks feel more or less the same. I think it's cool that DH and DK have a lot of self-sustain and that's how they tank where as Brew has stagger and shields, warrior needs to use ignore pain, etc. To me, the issue in DF hasn't been that tanks are too strong (outside of vengence ofc) it's that dps defensives are way too good and take away agency from the healer. The fact that Blizz aren't addressing that and are nerfing tanks seems very last minute and out of touch. I do agree w/some others that you basing some of your argument on this by playing w/Equinox and Dorkii is kind of sus xD Great vid though, I always enjoy hearing your thoughts from a healers perspective!
I share some of the tanks' concerns, especially on the kiting meta, but your post also indicates exactly what is wrong. First of all: "make us too reliant on the healer for staying alive". Does it? Because the content shows intermittent healing to the tank while you triage the other teammates. And shouldn't you BE reliant on the healer to keep you HEALED ?! Isn't that's the healer's role? Tanks have been playing this game for the last expansion where they weren't realiant on ANYONE to do anything to succeed. Maybe it's time tanks arent all powerful gods that can do everything and you actually play as a teammember instead of this single player game. You still need skill to come out of things alive, that hasn't changed. It says it right there in the blue post that tanks are still required to time their cooldowns well. Second: "Pushing that more onto the healer who already has to do all the mechanics" you think healers want to do all the mechanics ?! This is grandeur delussion that DPS and Tanks have arrogantly been pushing towards healers. The reason we DO the jobs is because we're NOT BUSY HEALING, we're only doing our role 50% of the time in a dungeon and the other half we 're doing mechanics or dpsing! How would you find dungeons where 50% of the mobs can't be aggroed and just do their thing? Wouldn't you feel useless if you can't even tank half the dungeon ? I'm not saying that blizzard hit the mark right on this change. I very much doubt it, but the thought behind it is what healers have been asking for for the last few YEARS. And suddenly all the ego tanks start shouting about how they can't solo a full mythic plus anymore. Well you shouldn't.
@nyth5167 Yeah its wild that "i dont like being reliant on the healer to stay alive" has become so normalized. Imagine dps players saying "i dont like being reliant on the tank tanking the bosses" or healers saying "i dont like being reliant on the dps doing damage".
infinite scaling content issue, Tanks and Healers lose the ability to start outscaling the content unless you keep yourself on a lower less rewarding difficulty. Losing the class fantasy of becoming a juggernaught, or the healer being able to keep people up through more risky double/triple pulls. I wish they would re evaluate that portion of letting rpg characters feel like they are really strong
I rly like way more a steady dmg and tanks not be able to solo everything, and healers do a proper healing job, instead of one shot hits and heal to full in few seconds before next one shots. Heal tank and dps when mistakes being done.
I honestly don't have much faith in their ability to balance for this. Look at their stated goals for affixes in mythic plus. That lasted for 2 whole weeks before they started adding affixes back in that cause nameplate clutter and terrible overlaps on a regular basis, and it got progressively worse with each new one they added.
Been running lightweaver and divine word since the rework in keys upwards of +28s. my go-to fave playstyle more around mastery. Realllly looking forward to it being even better next xpac. I personally enjoy healing tanks and adds to the "skill expression" to healing besides using CD's during boss windows etc.
It's why I always enjoyed healing 10 mans more actually. Tank healing was an active part of the decision making there, whereas in higher group counts they'd have a million hots on them.
20:13 they even said in the blue post that this is the first step to making changes to dps players later on. “” Making tank survival a more involving element of group gameplay could give us some freedom to ease up on the threat to other group members. “”
The top players who ran a few runs without a healer, because _they need no margin of error,_ therefore, mathematically, they benefit from a 4th dps more than from a healer, now had better start working on ways to run M+ without a tank. They'll need to popularize that skill now: the _tank-free_ run! We want to see the 2-dps-1-aug-evoker-2-healers setup.
Idk i just dont trust then to tune properly. Bigger healthpools mean nothing if youre still getting spiked for 70/80/90% of your HP and theyve done a really good job proving that they dont move fast enough on that kind of tuning required in keys if they even do it at all, there are still things in S4 that are completely out of whack with where they should be and these are dungeons that are getting their second rotation, its really just unacceptable if we're being honest
Glad all the uproar around healing in DF is getting addressed. I was worried tanks were going to somehow avoid an adjustment along with every other spec (healers and dps) in the game. I want players to have some outplay/agency on surviving but not at the cost of a core role from the group. TWW is just looking better and better. Can't wait to get in and play through all the changes myself.
This is sad, since a lot of players at DD dont use saves and etc, so i would say thay if you dont have a group than it will be problematic for your to push keys
I’m already annoyed by all the tanks crying they are not invincible anymore … it’s called mitigation to make it easier for your heal to heal you not Invicibility button …
Thanks for the video. I agree 100% that M+ is still way too elitist and should be a lot more open to casual players. I spent the whole DF expansion not daring to queue for M+, not caring to ba rejected or having to struggle with the group to overcome the dungeon. And I consider myself not a bad player since I tank the world bosses pretty easily.
Great take Jak, especially at the ”is this a mistake?” part. You did an excellent job of summarizing how I have felt as a healer not just in dragon flight but for a very long time, but especially in dragon flight. It’s so frustrating trying to convince people that a healer not wanting to DPS and wanting to heal is a very reasonable take on the game . And while I know that there is a lot of healers who enjoy mixing healing and DPS, there’s a lot of us who just want to heal and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. We also want to feel relevant in our roles and feel that we are contributing to the team equally.
While I do agree something needs to change and that these wild swings in tuning may be the solution. Getting out of your comfort zone is the only way to really see change. All of that being said this is going to make or break the returning player surge. Jack, dratnos, Max, etc all play with players who have made a career or people who can maintain a social life in this game. These changes affect them in a positive but maybe uncomfortable way. For growth though you will have to hook the new/returning crowd and this type of change might hinder. I’ve been taking a break since April. Enjoying other games, dealing with their problems and solutions instead of enjoying a game that I’ve played since 2004. I run with a variety of people who struggle tanking 8s as the meta tanks and then complain when they see me solo a boss from 60% because I can’t trust them to do mechanics. And then we have a small push group that goes for 15-20s this season. It’s night and day. There are three guilds I help on the lower end because they can’t and they are going to dissolve if these changes are not managed correctly. The high end groups will be fine.
I’m not a doomer. But It’s a week before prepatch and I still haven’t bought the expansion yet. I’ll play prepatch and decide then. I play melee>tank>heals>ranged in that order just to keep my experience out in the open. Always push to 2.5k-3k io usually do half of mythic raid. Never had CE. Closest I got was 2nd to last boss in bfa. I’m no expert by any stretch.
TLDR: THE TANK KITING META IS BACK, BABY! ... sucks to be a guardian druid, a caster dps, SUPER sucks to be an evoker. meta healer will be resto druid.
Thank you for being the voice of reason here. This is a healthy change for the majority of the game ASSUMING that they balance content around this change properly.
The issue is we know blizzard likely won’t have things tuned well. The only upside is that these days we don’t wait months for them to release a handful of changes.
@@nofoxgiven6561 If we're operating on the basic assumption that they're going to fail, then no changes they make are ever good. Literally. Ever. Nothing is a good change if you fail at it. I would much prefer Blizzard make changes with a theoretically good direction. I would much prefer they be moving in the right direction even if getting it perfect is going to be very difficult. And I sincerely think this is a correct direction for them to be moving in, even if the end goal is difficult to reach. But forgive me here for asking a blunt question, but if you don't trust the team making the game to do anything right at all.... why do you still play the game?
@@seluhir8820 haven’t played retail since the third week of season 4. And you can have passion for something while disagreeing with changes and direction taken. Just cause I’m not sucking blizzard off with “oh any change is a good change!” No that’s stupid, you can look at changes and say that’s bad. I can’t wait to see healers complain about people being health sponges now with the stam increase and defensive decrease. I hope they prove me wrong and have things tuned well by the time the first season starts but historically every expac where they across the board nerfed tanks for season 1, they undid that by/in the second season. You’d think that lesson would be learnt but no. I think what they really should do is cut everyone’s defensives except tanks, tune damage across the board so party takes steady damage for healers to heal. And tune mob abilities and damage so the meta isn’t bring the max amount of stops and kicks you can in a 5 man, look at the last roster for mdi where all teams are running the exact same comp. We will have to see what the end result of these changes are, and with several weeks until release they can quite possibly see the backlash and revert some of the changes.
So basically, no Aug, no tank. Got it. Also, people complaining about "healers not having anything to do" are probably doing very low keys where you basically face roll through dung, or very high end players. at level where most players plays at, healers are working overtime most of the time, their only respite was that tank could take care of themself, and they only had to worry about DPS and themself, now even that is gone. This will most likely lead to reduction of healers and tanks in M+.
This is kind of weird to be honest. Lowering the defensive capability of everyone isn't going to make damage less bursty. It's going to make it MORE bursty. That's just how it works. If you take a million damage, and can prevent 50%, then suddenly only 20% due to a nerf you are taking more damage and bigger bursts of damage. If you don't lower incoming damage drastically none of this is going to make a lick of difference. Just from watching your video too people are still exploding. The stuff Blizzard is doing here isn't going to accomplish their goals from a purely math perspective if they don't adjust both sides of the equation.
This going to sound kinda bad. But I feel like your opinion is kind of irrelevent due to being such a high player. You have the luxury of being a high lvl healer with a high lvl tank with high lvl dps. Others dont have that.
They’re just nerfing tanks so much so that shaman tank will be overpowered when they introduce it in 11.1, just like guardian in 10.1 and vengeance in 10.2
Really? Seems like the constant crying from healer mains is what's causing all these issues in the first place. God forbid you press a damage button and aren't healing 100% of the time and stand afk when no group damage is happening.
These changes are a huge L as a pug player. I’m done tank maining, you don’t know the horrors of relying on random healers. I swear half the time people don’t even have keybinds. It’s just not fun to have the agency of your own survivability as the ‘tank’ take away from you. Meanwhile DPS are over there with pretty much the same amount of defensives and can self heal themselves when they have a bonehead for a healer. I’m just gonna go play ret pally and continue to not have to rely on a pug to keep me alive.
So my 2 main worrys about all of this is i main mw and thy just kill LC for tanks the build vefor this and i feel like thy killd part of the core of Blood DK with the Death Strike nerf
I understand the point of view, but in my opinion the approach is wrong. Blizz should've create constant damage encounters for healers specially in adds instead of nerfing tanks. From my PUG experience the queues waiting for tank and heal are around 1-2hs and most of the time finding one of them have no idea what a dungeon does creates an extremly toxic environment (Yazma is an example of a hellish wrong made boss), with these changes the amount of healer mains in the guilds I currently am most decide to wait for Season 2 and a few tanks literally decide not to sub, and I'm talking about mid-core guilds (M raiding for gear and focusing in M+)
Ya know, I have been so sick and tired of running after out of control, egomaniac tanks that are invincible and have no idea on how to keep aggro on groups, that casters don't just follow after the tank after they run ghrew groups and end up killing the healer and dps that can't keep up due to healer aggro and dps getting aggro for actually hitting a trailing mob, that I have stopped running time walking and mythics unless I am tanking.
It's sad how zero effort tanks have become. It's really lured in some ego maniacs who think they're paying the hardest role in the game when currently they're even easier than dps.
This isnt a tank issue, letting the tank gather and get aggro has been a thing since the game came out and it says a lot about who really has the ego when youre not willing to wait 3 seconds for the tank to plant their feet to start healing or dpsing
You probably run low keys cuz i haven't noticed a single aggro problem in high keys. Also most of the aggro problems occur where you shouldn't heal or dps. I saw many instances where tank say "just run" and bunch of lowbies start dotting or hotting targets.
@@grenadanotthecountry hit the nail on the head. thes players cant calm their tits for a couple seconds... its annoying. im gonna put myself into bad situations and risks to safe those knuckleheads. its not the tanks fault. grouping properly and then cleanly controlling the mobs in a pull is so much easier when you let the tank cook (most of the times)
