Another house rule I've seen is that the game doesn't end when time runs out, but you go into final death mode, where death is permanent and the Hunter's Dream can no longer be accessed for the remainder of the chapter. If every hunter dies, it's game over, but if just one is able to pull through and complete the last mission, then it's a win.
I like that as well! Ultimately there's several ways you can make the lose state more thematic and based on poor play and not poor tile placement :) I might actually try this once and see how I feel about that as well. That would caution against spam going to hunter's dream to upgrade a lot early game as it gets you to that end state faster!
So far I have only played chapter one of the long hunt and I beat the final scourge beast with no time left, and it felt heart wrenching and intense. At the end I was like that was close!!! However, had I been just one round off, and I would have lost while fighting the final fight , (would simulate my power going out while playing the videogame) I prolly would not have been motivated to reset the game board and try again. You are absolutely right in the fact that a timer in the game is arbitrary and non-thematic. And I really like this house rule.
@@thereal4579 I really like your analogy about the timer being the power going out and losing your save game, that is how the designers should have thought about this as well (and all future designers of dungeon crawl type board games).
I really like the miniatures so against my better judgment I searched and completed an all-in pledge aftermarket price. After a repeated playing for a good 30 hours, I can now safely say the randomness issue with the tile drawing and not enough rounds to win the game is largely the player's own fault. Each campaign mission only requires TWO insight mission to finish so players have to make a decision to follow up on the mission they uncover or give up on it. You just don't have enough time to complete everything in each play through. One thing is clear, if you're a completionist when playing a dungeon crawl, stay away from this game as you'll be hard pressed into giving up what you always do -- and that is explore every single tile, complete every mission, getting every treasure and rewards. Nope, not in Bloodborne, you ain't got the time to do everything.
Nice review, but the timer is not a random decision, its basically the blood moon ending. So as in the game you loose if morning comes. Nontheless its true that its not a mechanic present in the videogame.
I agree with the resetting campaigns on loss. But I houseruled it a bit differently; instead of resetting the entire campaign, I reset the chapter but don't reset the character decks. This seems thematic to me with the video game. You die but you will have all the new items you gathered on the way to help you out in your next run. Anyway, great review, as always!
oh yeah that's totally fine too! As I said there is absolutely not complete failure state in the video game IP, you can ALWAYS keep going so that entire idea of a hard fail is technically wrong here.
The hunt track is definitely the worse part of the game :( I don't think that tying it together with the hunters' deaths is good enough fix becasue then players can abuse it by killing the same monster on and on again until they upgrade the whole deck - they can just kill monsters and go to the dream for heals and upgrades :( There would have to be another limitation like how many upgrades you can get in a given game or how many times you can go to the dream. The hunt track lies at the core of this game's design and the game balance depends on it and that's its biggest downfall, it was a terrible idea :(
That house rules sounded intriguing until I read your comment. I wonder what The King of Average has to answer this. One may not like the hunt track but as you said it is too tied to the game design to make a game breaking house rule like this..
I say get a better gaming group :P Kidding of course, but it really depends on your group. My group has zero desire to grind or farm anything so this was never an issue. If your group would have issues wanting to do that then perhaps limit it to trips to the Hunters Dream instead of deaths (but make the count higher obviously)? To be honest though, while that sounds boring gameplay wise to me, it's 100% in line with the Bloodborne IP. I recall making "runs" to grind XP before a boss fight in the video game.
@@TheKingofAverage It's not a matter of a gaming group. If you introduce a house rule then make it logical and well-balanced otherwise you're introducing more holes rather than patching the goddamm thing :P With your house rule players would go to the dream to heal themselves, even unintentionally, breaking the whole balance of the game and making it super easy, because you can run away at any points to the dream and that's just a silly fix :) I can only hope fanbase on BGG will find a way to balance it out :) Sudden death mode seems more balanced but it still makes the game easier; when you finish the track you go at the beginning but now you can't visit the dream and the death is permament. Maybe a combination of the two: you can die X times. Where X is the number of players + sudden death.
@@GamingMansion I agree with the suggestion of adding voluntary trips to the HD to the hunt track, its not like you can become overly op from farming when you're limited to 12 cards and only get rewards from missions
Despite its flaws I enjoy the game. Many of downsides could be fixed with better quality reprint (which I doubt will be the case, but I digress) and edits to rulebook. I too, had to read the FAQ, and have mixed feelings about the rulebook. I thought, I have good grasp on rules after reading it, and then found from one of the yt gameplays, that I completely butchered the turns. The gameplay is still enjoyable. I love the deck building aspect, the fact I can make hard hitting dodger or unstoppable mosquito is superb. I don't mind the randomness, it actually allows for better replayability, with different enemies, with different dungeon setup. The enemy action deck is not really random, as you can keep track of what was there and figure out, the next attack most likely will be a basic one. The timetracker I’m torn on. It limits the time of sessions, forces focus and prevents players from just grinding their deck upgrades endlessly. I have yet to loose to it, I might house rule it though, 'cause there's no way my kids would like to start campaign afresh in the middle of it :) The storage on the bottom is great, the mini's storage is terrible and l'm honestly thinking of doing my own. It reminds me of a slightly better, but still annoying, retail storage I got in Bloodrage. In fact, this whole KS looks to me like we got retail quality game with some freebies, which suck to me, as I love better quality components and those are not found here. Those player boards, they could be doubleblayered to place the cards, the places for blood echoes, healt could also have been cout outs, ehh, so many chances to deluxify KS version. After I receive Zombicide 2nd edition (whenever that happens, cause Undead or Alive and make games not campaigns), I will not be receiving any CMON game. If I want retail quality, I will go retail, it will be cheaper too. Having said that, I look past through component and storage cons, because I love the strategic gameplay, and that's what matters. Good review btw. I really like the form, one needs to indeed know what the game is about before watching it, but it touched on many pros and cons. Keep it up. Now, I need to find a good orient-themed, deck builder, suggestions are welcomed ;)
Where you explore, how fast, the layout you create - these are all strategic decisions your making. In a 3/4 player game the whole map is usually explored by round 2/3. In 1/2 it’s usually before the first red marker (if needed). Random tiles, and blank tiles give this game an element of strategy in the discovery and exploration phase. Set layouts I feel are far less interesting - and I would be much less likely to replay them. I grant the game is easier or harder from tile draw. But it is always winnable. I’ve always felt the level of randomness in tile draw and enemies is a boon to replayability of the game. I’ve always felt it’s manageable because combat is close to being deterministic puzzle without it being 100%.
The timer is 100% required, it creates tension, it forces you to take risks, and play efficiently/strategically. This game is too hard out of the box for most people. I think thats the failing. They should have made a "tutorial mode" to get people hooked. Then give them the "normal mode". I recommend playing with "draw 4 cards" instead of "draw 3". Theres a lot less pressure. It's a lot more fun for people who don't like being pushed by the timer. Also - the first phase of the game is exploration - explore quicker.
Also maybe I'm misunderstanding the rules but grabbing the three tokens then going back once doesn't seem like much movement, especially with 2 players? I guess your whole point was that the randomness is painful, but the examples seemed like misplays caused the issues
Bloodborne is not a casual dungeon crawler, it's a strategic puzzler where every card, every turn counts. If you fail a chapter, use what you have learned about the quests to succeed next time. Do not attempt quests if they don't fit your tile layout. There is a lot to think about in this game, especially for mitigating luck, and if you plip plop you will fail :)
oh trust me we went optimal afterward and still failed. The great Bridge (the only one of the 3 to not send you on a chase to grab monsters/enemies was the second to last tile we found thanks to random luck. Chapter 2 requires you to do at least 2 of these fetch quests and as I showed, both tiles were at least 2 tiles away from what was needed. This meant that no matter what, we had a harder time doing these than if the first 3 tiles pulled were the quest ones needed and the next ones placed what we need right next to them. That sort of swingyness in difficulty has NOTHING to do with the cards I choose to play or actions I choose to do. One simply gives us les time to complete them no matter what I do.
@@TheKingofAverage Are you sure? Odeon Chapel have two different missions depending on what you did in chapter 1 (one is an easy fight and the other requires you to find consumables). Iosefka's Research is a monster lure mission and can be the hardest one to complete, and if you dont have a Hunter Mob or Huntsman Minion nearby it should be ignored. Otherwise Iosefkas's Research is pretty easy: Use card 18 to spawn Scourge Beast in Iosefka's Clinic (oh, and save your consumables from chapter 1 for this so you don't have to pick up any in chapter 2).
@@TheKingofAverage And I can understand how you feel and your reasoning. I failed hard first try (I blamed randomness and bad scaling, it felt unfair). But now I love it (including the timer).
I completely agree. This game is super fun and I love it. Great bang for the buck as well. The timer thing was for sure something I wasn't sold on so great for you house ruling it. Especially since the same mission made me upset too. Knocking it out of the park the whole match until I had to lure the monster across the map and ran out of time.
That was our first fail! We freaking beat the thing on the last round which felt AWESOME! Only to reveal we have to drag him across the map so we lost -_-
@@TheKingofAverage i have a question for you since im also a fan of the video game. Reset monsters after death and when traveling to the nightmare? Also how many lives would you reccomend for single player?
So what exactly is the houserule you are using? The time marker still moves up a space each turn and hunters dream visit but just loops to the beginning after the last reset? And the campaign can only end when there are more than 2 deads in a chapter?
Everything is the exact same but I loop the track and instead keep count of player deaths per chapter. It could be adjusted of course: no respawns after first timer loop, more or less deaths allowed, etc. It's important to keep the tracker going though as it controls the map reset and is tied to certain objectives. Tying to deaths means you only lose if you play poorly, usually by being too greedy in combat and overextending yourself...just like the video game :)
I have played the three chapters of the Long Hunt with 2 players. The timer didn't seem bad to us, but it is easy to lose track of when to advance. I think having a time limit is actually a good thing in this game (if it is properly balanced) because otherwise the optimal way of playing would be very slow, killing the same few enemies over and over in order to upgrade all your cards. Obviously the issue could be addressed in different ways. When we played, the number of rounds allowed for the game felt tight but ok. I figure with more players there would be more randomness due to the higher number of random tiles. Overall the handling of the time limit felt better to us than the automated version of Descent where the game becomes unplayable without warning and simply kills you with unfair events that deal an unreasonable amount of damage. I liked that the game doesn't overly penalize you for dying because this allows you to choose to die as an additional tactical option (the enemies don't get to act and you get a full restore and can teleport anywhere). I also didn't find resetting the decks at the end of the campaign too time consuming, I reordered the cards after every chapter and it never took more than a couple of minutes. Overall the teardown is massively shorter than Zombicide. I agree that some miniature sculpts are pretty bad (especially the Mergo's Attendants and Small Celestial Emissaries) but, as a painter, I love the variety (I really got tired painting hundreds of aliens with the same color scheme in Zombicide Invader!).
Properly balanced is the key word there. If each chapter had a set map that was balanced then I'd be much more okay with it. Sounds like you got a good tile layout so lucky you, I got an impossible one, unlucky me. I will say that dying as an advantage is again only board game related and doesn't match the IP it's based off of (in the video game it always resets whole map/health). I'm not against it though per-se as I'm alright with stuff added to an IP based game if it can be fun. Speed run Bloodborne wasn't fun for me :D Breaking down the reset to per chapter is nicer. That just leaves you with still arranging all of the cards you used that session, the store, map tiles and consumables + any new rewards you got. At the end you also have all of your insight mission cards to add to that list. It's nothing terrible (like JoA lol) but it's not as quick as many other games I play so feel it's worth noting :)
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Yeah, just like the video game. Map resetting still happens so often you still don't want to all the time. That being said, if this is issue it's easy to handle. One of the best solutions I've heard is use the end of the timer as a "sudden death" so once you get to the end of the track then you can't respawn so going to Hunter's Dream would still propel you to that faster. Or limit the amount of times you can visit. But from my play sessions we felt fine with it and didn't end up going back any more than normal.
I appreciate the level of honesty in not taking money from developers to give favorable reviews. I dont know if there are many other same size YT channels that receive a game prototype without also receiving a check. Cheers
I'm glad to hear it thank you for the feedback! It's certainly a harder road to travel, but far more rewarding to me personably as I love making videos for consumers, not companies. There are some around my size that do, but they tend to "play ball" more than I do and have a different level of critique. I always call it "softball criticism" and it's far less matter of fact :) Word choices matter and how you talk matter! My personal favorite example is whether you say gameplay is "light" or "weak" - often you can mean the same thing, but how that's internalized and how someone hearing it will interpret it is fairly different.
@@TheKingofAverage facts. Playing ball is probably worse imo. At least the dudes getting paid are up front about their review, but I do see why getting demos for views is worth it to play ball. And you are right about adjectives. If the play or mechanics are "weak" thats apples and oranges when you hear "light".
I swear I have heard "And this is not a negative... but...this game is mechanically light" 4 times in reviews this week [stuffs company check into the back pocket]
Thanks for the solid, detailed review and I hope it helps other people know what they're going to get into as well. I fully agree that a lot of the rulebook and some design decisions they made, the turn limit especially like you said, were 100% dumb as hell, but frankly I don't care because I aggressively house rule whenever I think I can make a game better. And ho boy, I'm probably going to re-edit my own entire rulebook for Bloodborne and also have a blast doing it because I think the game at its core and the actual gameplay loop are absolutely solid. Ultimately I think this is a very sweet game with a lot of potential, burdened by some crappy rulebooking by CMON, but absolutely salvageable like a boss battle that initially went wonky, but if you step back and recalibrate you'll bring that big baddie crashing down.
Do yourself a favour and throw the cardboard box for the minis out. Store all the cards/ tokens in the organiser, stack the hunt dashboard on top of that, tiles in the next layer (in 4 stacks of 5 tiles) and then stacks the minis and rulebook as the final layer. Stores vertically with no issue and you don't need to fight cardboard every game.
@@TheKingofAverage Yep, biggest issue is all the cards and stuff underneath moving about so it may take some experimenting to get it right but I swear by it. I have removed all the extra cardboard boxes and have not looked back
Hah! Yeah I suppose after a few more weeks of failed game nights I'd eventually get a lucky tile draw :D A patron of mine had to play it 5 times to finally get past that chapter - once I heard that I was like "nope!" :D
That was a poor part of the example for sure, but I couldn't remember who the first one was (Scourge Beast there is actually second) - if I recall correctly we could use either of the other two Minion or Mob, which were just as far away and don't move two :( Actually the fact t hat you have to do this twice sucked!
I had to cancel my pledge due to ridiculous shipping by CMON. An online seller in India was selling this for a reasonable price. I pre ordered the Core Box, Chalice Dungeon and Hunter's Dream expansion for the price of my EB pledge + shipping. I can probably get another expansion for the import duty/taxes I would've had to pay on the KS pledge 😂
I'll say that although the timer mechanism didn't come from the IP, I am wholeheartedly in support of board games based on IPs implementing good game mechanics rather than trying to stay "true" to the mechanics of the source material. Most games that try to replicate video game mechanics in a board game fall very flat. The best ones use the setting/environments/theme on great board game mechanics. The timer is debatable as a good game mechanic. Lots of other games use it (Gloomhaven, Pandemic, etc) to great effect, so it's definitely not always a terrible thing.
TBH I'd be MUCH more okay with it if each chapter had a specific tile layout/map that was balanced. That would have caused more dev time though so it doesn't surprise me that CMON opted to just make it random.
@@TheKingofAverage I think the objection to the wide range in difficulty caused by randomized tiles is a great criticism of the game - but like you said, the timer mechanic really wasn't the underlying issue... it just exposed the tile issue. I'm not sure if a pre-determined tile layout would be more fun or if it would lose some of the exploration hooks that result in exciting/surprise encounters. A big theme for me in Bloodborne (and other Souls games) was pressing forward into the unknown and dealing with whatever I encountered. I can definitely envision some fun community created pre-made maps (perhaps ones that don't even use the tiles?) and accompanying campaigns!
Did you not read the FAQ link? O.O it's quite long and has had to have Michael Shinall answer many of them personally since it's NOT in the rulebook. Opinions are one thing but for that point I'm literally just stating fact. It has a lengthy FAQ with answers needing to come from the designer himself since it's not in the rulebook.
@@TheKingofAverage I did read, and a lot of what's in the faq is answered in the rulebook, maybe not as well put as in the faq, but it's there. Anyway, indeed the timing of when stuff happens could be better well presented in the rules, so your citic is valid :)
One of the worst rulebooks I have ever seen. I love the game, but the rule book is shit. Soooooo many common situations you get into in the game are not explained in the rulebook, you have to go googling.
Why do reviewers take etherfields, tainted grail, and blood borne, and then make up rules to make them boring dungeon crawls because they don’t like resource management survival games?
In this particular case I think it was well explained - the resource in question (time) didn't fit the theme of the game (or the narrative either). Bloodborne was an action RPG, not a timed survival game. Tainted grail has an explicit reason for that time limit and was built around it. KoA made it sound tacked on here.
As long as they are happy with it !!! After all if we take the time to separate everything he said... forget the quality material and timer and this game is really awesome for him. So for the people who likr the timer aspect it will be a great addition !!! Receiving it tomorrow !
Ps IP game doesn't hae to replicate everyhing anyway. An awesome game go beyond a copy adaptation and adapt to their vision to make us feel a game parallel to the IP not identical 😅 They wanted to prevent grind, put emphasis on choice and enhance the importance of all the choice (but the tile randomness could be a break for me if it really make make impossible to conplete insignt mission due to this only)
For me the big point was to tie failure to a failure on my part and not bad luck with tile placement. With the timer if I lucked out with perfect tile placement I could play badly and still win. Alternatively if I have bad tile placement I can play as optimal as possible and still lose. They tied the failure state to something out of player control and it varies the difficulty radically. I've played that Chapter 2 enough to know it can be smooth sailing or impossible and that's just poor game design IMO so I have no qualms counting it as a con. Of course it's all just my personal take on things :)
@@zerohonour3940 sure, but if you're going to rip out the heart of the design without realizing how any of it works, you should skip it entirely if I'm being honest.
Hi, At first -as this is my first post on this channel- I'd like to thank you for all your effort and great reviews. I really got stuck here !(for quite a while actually) Now to the main topic. I'm gonna play Bloodborne soon. I've already rushed trough the rulebook and watched a playthrough and having similar concerns about some mechanics. To reset a whole campaign after losing a single chapter??? That sounds bummerish to me. I guess I'll try to record all my stats after each chapter for only reseting the last one if necessary. But the main problem is that I don't want to play Bloodborne " The Speedrun either". So I'd like to adopt your houserules right from the beginning. Only I'm wondering if I have to adjust the Hunter's Dream mechanic either. I mean being able to enter it on purpose as often as I want for a full recovery seems to be a bit to overwhelming to me without a timer. Did you houserule that too? Again thanks for everything!
Managing failure in a long-term campaign is a recurrent issue. Players with unhappy with this aspect in 7th Continent, same for Tainted Grail, now Bloodborne. What is wrong with designers that would apply the same method that makes everyone unhappy again and again?
I love everything about the game - aside from the timer. The timer really can completely ruin a session. But everything else - the deckbuilding gameplay, the branching missions, the minis (I feel like you just got a bad batch. Mine largely don't look as poor as some of yours did) is solid for me. So, here's my house rules - 1. When you fail, you don't reset the entire campaign, just that chapter, and you keep all your upgrades. This is thematic with the game. 2. The timer. I cut it in half, just to the second reset point. The timer ONLY moves either when someone dies, or you visit the Hunter's Dream. This still forces players to be a bit more cautious both in terms of combat and also when to visit the Dream. For me and my group, these two fixes were all we needed for n immensely enjoyable experience.
I like those! I've also enjoyed the game a ton with my houserule, but I have to review based on what they provide so that colors the review a bit :) For your #2, wouldn't that cause somewhat of an issue with map resets that help respawn perhaps needed enemies, get them off of you (or spawn them on you) and also reset the chests which is often good instead of bad to hit - do you find you have to purposefully go to the dream just to try and progress it or are you looping just the first half with more spaced out resets?
@@TheKingofAverage Oh, whoops. I did forget to mention that death and intentionally visiting the Hunter's Dream also causes the map to reset. Again, keeping thematic with the game. Didn't run into any issues with the needed respawning enemies, particularly ones that needed to be lured, as you so much disliked in this video ;) haha. But I get it, depending on the map tiles, it can be a doozy.
@@coffeyhouseproductions2293 Just to clarify, if the timer moves only when someone dies or visit the hunters dream, each timer move causes reset of the map? (so there will be much more resets overall) And have you played it as 4? without the house rule did you manage to finish scenarios/campaign?
@@aviranc your clarification is correct. It makes the game harder in some ways, but I'd rather lose to brutal combat than a silly timer mechanic that isn't thematic with the game. I did not play with 4, only two. I finished the first chapter without house rules. We house ruled the second and third chapters(after losing in the midst of the final boss fights simply because of the timer). I suppose you could alter it so that enemies only respawn if a player intentionally goes to the Hunter's Dream. I actually might try that variant next time we play. That's the beauty of house ruling.
So far I had a lot of fun with the game, yes there are issues and problems, but if you figure them out, then the game is 10/10. I know that we all would want a perfect game, thinked throught rules, the best quality components... but the amount of content that we got for 100$ (+shipping) is fantastic, so it is more like a balance of pros and cons / cost. In my personal opinion I had a good time playing the game, liked the randomnes which makes you addjust to how the tiles appear and which cards you have, sometimes it is frustrating, sometimes is easy, but you will not have two plays which will be the same. And the miniatures are great :D
I 100% agree on the component quality. The character sheets are flimsy trash, the map tiles are soft piles of rubbish and the inside boxes are just nonsense. Like seriously CMON?? How many games have you made with better quality than this? It genuinely makes me rethink my next CMON purchase because the quality of this game is subpar to say the least. The small and tarot sized cards are fine but the rest are bad. So many of components came dinged, dented and with frayed corners and after the amount of money they want for this game, I expect a lot better quality and for it to be packed well enough to survive shipping. I think I'm either playing the game incorrectly or I've been really lucky, because so far I've finished every mission well under time and it felt, almost too easy. I never died, I got beat up several times and quickly but it wasn't as punishing as the video game honestly. haha The slight control you have over tiles to mitigate awful placement, is you get to pick how the tile gets locked in. You don't get to pick the tile and the tile has to be connected by door ways to be adjacent but you can pick which doors line up at least.
so sad that CMON tiles quality has dropped so so much But they will UP their quality for Massive Darkness and others this will definitely determine if we still back CMON games
We tried to adjust Hunt track and I would conclude that it is an essential foundation of this game , eliminating or “fixing” it ruins experience . It make you feel on your toes every time, plan ahead and be focused . Indeed stupid , lazy decision in this game will lead to death, death will lead to losing a turn of track and that will be that turn you need to finish chapter. We lost once that way and it learned the lesson. Game indeed wants you to be better.
Oh man… this is giving me strong Rise of Moloch vibes with the rules. I loved the theme of that game and painstakingly got through the core box but the game was a huge point of frustration for my group because of the rules…
Another CMON game that is just about lots of plastic minis. The game and other components are an afterthought. People need to stop backing these games because other companies are starting to copy this model.
This has been sitting on my shelve. I've been pondering whether I should keep it or auction it. The gameplay still sounds like it could be my cup of tea. I think I'll give the core box a go and decide from there. Thanks for the review! I can see some house rules come into play from your feedback!
Thanks for a very detailed and captivating review. In my game group, we decided that when a hunter dies, the hunting tracker does not move, but the player skips 1 full round, recovering after death. Playing with 4 players, it turns out that someone is in a dream, and someone is on the field, and this does not create an advantage in strength against monsters, but the hunting tracker does not fly to the finish line with an arrow. In this case, we usually end the game at the last activation of the last round. And we don't always win. The movement of the game turns out to be not so fast, and allows you to start opening locations and quests, but also not so long that you could prepare for the final battle for a long time.
If my KS copy ever shows up, you can expect it to be going on eBay immediately as I’ve got way too many great games that have come in this year from KS. Just my opinion of course. #deathmaydie
@The King of Average - BUT the tiles are linen finished! THAT means that they are MORE DURABLE! F linen finish! They could have spent that money on better cardboard!!!
I really enjoyed this game but I agree with your negatives especially the stupid time track, I always hated being timed for anything. I think they only did that for the resets. It's funny hearing you gripe about the same stuff that I'm sure were all thinking lol good review man
Hah! Well yeah it's definitely good to have alignment :D Agreed it's still good to use it for resets and I still do that. I just simply loop it now is all and only lose if I play badly and die in combat. You know...just like the video game it's based on! :P
I have been playing the game for a while now and I generally agree with you in particular with regards to the failing condition of the game. It does feel utterly arbitrary. I think the reason is because it is laid bare in front of yourinstead of being hidden within the mechanics of the game. for example it could have been that overtime the odds would keep stacking against to the point where the game would be practically unbeatable if you didn't play well by the 15th round or so. Like in Pandemic for example. That game is on a clock and it feels perfectly fair. My house rule for blood-borne is basically sudden death after the last round. The Hunters can no longer go to the dream and if they die is game over.
I've heard the sudden death twice now and quite like that idea as well! It still makes the game feel a bit like a speed run since it's a race to the "end game" whereas I like slow careful planning like the video game it's based off of, but like the idea anyway - will need to try it sometime!
This review is SPOT ON! We played the first two chapters and I agree with everything you said. We were also SO lucky with the tile draw. Had we drawn different we would have lost. This bothered me the most. Glad I was able to try it and also glad I sold it. I am going to spend my time playing other games.
I am super bummed about the storage not being able to handle sleeved cards. I literally had this same issue with Tainted Grail this morning. I finally decided to sleeve everything and nothing fits in their inserts. I basically just had to throw them out and use rubberbands. I think your house rule seems like a good one. I'll probably go into it with the same one. Are you looping back to the beginning of the track or just not even using it?
Just looping back, the only thing that changes is the fail state from time to deaths. It's important to continue to reset the map via the track :) That way I fail because I played badly not because I drew random tiles badly :D
Thanks for the detailed review. I like the idea of your house rule, but it seems to me that without a timer, players would be going to the dream way too often.
You are very welcome of course! :D You can adjust of course, perhaps limit trips instead of deaths? Perhaps introduce a "sudden death" no respawn limit at the end of the timer, etc. Lots to play with I think :)
_Bloodborne_ would have benefited immensely from the action card programming in Gloomhaven with meatier tactical decisions, but obviously that requires a long balancing process. Every game design decision they made seemed based around a bunch of expansions, meaning more hunters and monsters. Which is to say, they went for the simplest system possible. I think I've moved past CMON's design philosophy, and am far more intrigued by the indie design space with gems like _Obsidia._
To edit your house rule it should be no respawns after death limit, not an auto lose. For example if two player and on player dies after death count is met, then it should be left to the final player alive to complete the mission. If the final player doesn't die and completes the mission then u both win.
I would also like to add that if u make it to the boss fight it shouldnt be game over, for the campaign. A boss fight should be a check point. However if u run out of respawns u no longer get to upgrade your deck
My memories rubbish, I'll forgot it if I don't do it right at the start. I remove it or dislike it later if I find a video really awful (very rare), I generally like to encourage people to make more content for stuff I'm interested in and remembering to smash that button is a part of that. I'm slowly getting in the habit of leaving comments even when I have nothing to say too!
Thanks for the review. I haven't played it yet, because three other games arrived just before it :) I will probably try the timer rule and your house rule and see what works for me. And thanks for adding the FAQ link.
Happy to share! If you find it doesn't work at lower/higher player counts feel free to make it a set amount of lives, but at 2 player (what I played after making the rule) I found it to be quite tense! We actually lost still once to a boss after suffering our third death so it's still hard but feels MUCH more like the actual IP.
The timer, as the game is currently designed is a necessity as it is far to easy without it. I am surprised you did not talk more about how integral it is to the game and how it changes this game from just a slow kill every mob traditional dungeon crawl to what it is. People complaining about the the timer is like people complaining a boss is "cheap" in a video game before learning the mechanics of the fight. It is a mechanic you have to plan for and play around. But by all means play the game how you want to but I think its a bit unfair to describe it as a negative of the game when its just not what you expected and that you had hoped it followed a more traditional dungeon crawl design. Besides the timer I think you nailed the other positives and negatives :)
I think he hates it more because there is no thematic link therefore nothing justifying this punishing ending associated with time limit + the tile randomness. I'M a bloodborne fan but I love that they turned it's focus. Why do you like this timer ?
The timer allows a certain amount of deaths (as it speeds up the timer) so really the punishment for death is the same, but in this way it's on us for now handling combat well enough, just like the video game. We still lost with this houserule so it certainly doesn't make things easy. Heck timer can be easier. If you got an optimal tile layout you could die several times and still "win" even though you're playing worse. By tying it directly to death count means if you don't play well then you lose and no convenient tile placement will save you. We actually lost with this houserule too so I feel it's pretty fair, and playing with no lives left is just as tense as being down to the wire with the timer. But of course this is all just my opinion :) I just want the difficulty to be tied to how good or bad I play, not how good or bad my tile placement was.
@@fredericcourcy1915 I would have Greatly preferred for balance sake and thematic tie in to the video game ,if the tile layout and maybe even items was planned but the chalice dungeon was random. Nothing then would have stopped me from randomizing the campaign layout on subsequent plays. That would then be like me adding the very popular randomizer mod to the video game. I could only imagine this wasn't done due to laziness\time constraints. Even with those changes I would want the timer to be there as it is what greatly determines the pace and drives many of the players decisions.
The shipping of the Bloodborne pledges has been the biggest shit show I have ever seen when it comes to fulfillment. Their updates says everyone has either received their game or tracking, though clearly a lot of people have not. In addition a lot of people who receive tracking have received tracking of other peoples pledges, me included.
Yeah it's pretty much 50/50 sadly, but as I say in the opening blurb, not all are equal. While yes tiles are hot garbage (especially for the need to shuffle!) it's better than great tiles and a sub par game. ...though I did have to house rule this one.
If I got this I would throw out the mini trays and cardboard box and just put the minis in a bin, that seems like it would be easier that that chaos. The whole point of having mini trays is to make it easier to get the minis to the table, this makes it look harder.
I'm a year late but we found that houseruling the timer so that it only moves when someone goes to the hunter's dream, by choice or by death. Ending the round does everything but move the timer. Definitely gives you more time to do more things but still keeps its challenging once the big boss comes out.
Did not back it, and think now if it was mistake, but was it? Dungeon Crawler I have enough, but this one seems to be different and the house rules I saw in the comments were easy. Great, what now? thx for the review
Great video King. So what do you think about the expansions so far? What will be your first one to try? Forsaken cainhurst ? Probably not byrgenwerth lol!
It's actually preety easy to bring a scourge beast to iosefkas clinik by discarding a consumable..... easiest part of the mission, and it actually helps you complete the main mission, so.... I feel that the game will be really stupid without the time pressure of the hunt track, but I do feel that having it automatically lose when you go past it is really severe. Someone here suggested that once the hunt track reaches the end of the line, you can no longer go to the dream and death is permanent, and if all hunters are dead the game is lost at this point. This is a good balance between a ticking clock and a non-terminal and enjoyable- result.
I had already done the consumable part, did that first, discarded right on top of the graveyard to try and be efficient. Sadly the Scourge Beats are the SECOND enemy you need to bring, before that we had to drag a minion or mob over. Ultimately house ruling can be tailored of course to personal preference. I found the death count to work fine for us and it gets real tense when you have non left :D You can wipe right at the beginning as well, really punishes bad play which I enjoy. We actually lost with my house rules to this guy thanks to a gamble that didn't pay off so I feel it's just as balanced from my experience, but now we fail because of us and not because of tile placement and it's more thematic :)
"CMoN just hates me." Quote of the video for me right there. I found this with A Song of Ice and Fire. However ASOIAF seems to be a great deal better all round
@@TheKingofAverage 100% agree on the original stuff. Later expansions like Baratheon Heroes boxed had some really poorly turned out minis. The red woman Melisandra had no face for the majority of the run.
@@TheKingofAverage Damn, I just backed the new Zombicide... I loved Black Plague/Green Horde and I liked Massive Darkness... has there stuff not been as good lately?
Hey KoA! I got my pledge essentially unnanounced (lucky my wife was home...) friday so I didnt have a chance to play yet. Although after unboxing here's what I think : -scale is too small 😢 I would have loved bigger scale, especially for the hunters. Although details came out nice. -tiles are so low quality for their intended purpose... I actually damaged one corner of the Coueryard Lamp (your favorite tile!) when I dropped it when punching it out... -the rulebook looked nice (although no index) but I understand how the lack of clarification from when the different attack effects can become a problem when they stack... -colors from the cards are nice for the theme. -dislike the mini's box (although the "Welcome home good hunter" is a nice touch) because I actually damaged a little my core box pulling it out... -overall my minis were correct. Didnt have the mosquito-people (like my daughter called them) cut in the middle. -I thought that although the timer was out of theme it was a nice way to control the duration of a game. However from your review I feel I will need to use your houserule because losing during a boss fight and having to reset the whole campaign only because you ran out of time because you were unlucky in how the tiles were randomly stacked is the kind of bullshit that makes me hate a game... -I got way too much stuff for this game... No regerts (mispell intented if you understand the reference). I'll try to get my first game this week if I can. Did you try the Chalice dungeons? Thanks again for your review. I would have been so disapppointed if I didnt known about your houserule before playing.
Yeah the houserule honestly saved the game for me! I hate losing at no fault of my own or a game where you can win while playing poorly. Other than that the worst is the tiles so since I "fixed' the main issue I've enjoyed it quite a bit :)
I agree that the Hunt Track ruins the game in my experience. I especially don't like that you feel punished for wanting to go and spend your "xp". I'm definitely looking to house rule too, although I almost NEVER do that.
Same here. This makes the third time I've ever done so with a game and the first that I've honestly kept playing long after doing so. Resetting the map/health makes sense and matches the game but losing the game because you wanted to spend your XP is just....odd to put into this IP based game to say the least.
CMON HQ, one employee is watching the different reviews for Bloodborne on internet. He finds KoA review and then. KoA : I think CMON juste hates me! Employee : Oh crap! He figured it out!
With your house rule you keep advancing the track every time a hunter enters hunter's dream? What do you do when you reach le last red circle in the track?
Another CMON game that requires a house rule to make it work (Massive Darkness comes to mind). If you need to house rule a game, then I am just paying for "assets" in my books. 100% agree with your POV.
Yep agreed it's not cool and is precisely why I refuse to review it based off a house rule. With the rule in place I actually very much like the game, but that's not what was delivered, what was delivered has a timer tied to random tile draws and failure state which is just plain dumb. I honestly suspect they opted for random draw, knowing it's impossible to balance simply to save dev time. You could make set maps and balance them per chapter, but that'd require more dev time to balance and design.
Thank you for an excellent review… Be really enjoying the gameplay, but all the criticisms you had were spot on. Paragraph I think I will start using your house rule as well. Cheers and thanks
The house rule I use is that defeating bosses or clearing the story or mission cards can turn back the Hunt Track time limit to it's last red space. It's made the scenarios really tense with players dashing to clear missions to keep the game alive, which has been very fun.
Thanks for the honest review! Looks like I don't need to check on this one. Random tile drawing, which is affecting your mission goal is just stupid. Also loosing on time here seems to be simply annoying. I don't like to house rule games to make them playable at all.
Same here! This is the first game I've truly kept playing after houseruling and the third time ever I've house ruled. It shouldn't be our job to try and balance the game.
I feel the timer is much more thematic compared to a death limit. In the video game you can die 10 times with no severe consequence but eventually you run out of time and have go to bed or make dinner.
I bought the KS set but haven’t opened anything yet, hoping to see some reviews. You’ve kind of worried me, but I do still want to paint the minis. Maybe it’ll at least make for some cool displays
With the house rule I've been enjoying this a lot! I can't review based off a house rule though so that colors the review a bit more than what my current experience is with it :) I say give it a shot!
Thank you again for the video and honest review. Seems like most of the issues are poor production. We can houserule undesirable game mechanics but can’t do much with poor qualities.
Yeah those are the two big ones: failure state tied to random tile draw and component quality. I fixed ones of them for myself and will just have to try my best to not make the crap cardboard too bad during play.
The best review of the game - and it's truly sad CMOD couldn't make it... Really not sure I want to play my copy as I have so many other good games :-/
Excellent review. For the most part, I'm really enjoying the game. The part that really bothers me about the timer is that any time I've tried picking up a consumable, I've lost the campaign. I probably deal with it's flaws more than some because the I really like the IP; probably my all-time favorite video game.
I really like the IP as well - absolutely loved the video game! I'd not have house ruled it to keep playing if I didn't as I normally hate house ruling (it shouldn't be my job to balance a game). To be able to loot more while still being in a timer you tend to have to spec into those draw cards so it's not taking up one of your limited actions. That's why Draw is so overpowered- it can turn one of your very limited turns into two, or even 3 turns worth of actions potentially.
Weird, I've had zero problems with the mini trays. For the base game tray which you make seem like the most difficult thing in the world to put back into the cardboard box, I just have my hand under the insert and slide it into the cardboard box. I've kept all the inserts and am storing everything but base game in vertical orientation to boot. I've also never pulled out the top tray first or on its own, I pull out the whole thing and slide back the full thing as one. 30:49, "It just isn't fair!" Well, life isn't fair :D . Resetting cards that are clearly numbered takes forever? How? From your description, came off as you having cards here, there and everywhere, that doesn't sound like the cards are at fault in that case. I've gotten screwed on tile draws, sucks, but I can live with it. There have been lucky swings the other way too. But I do agree on the randomness, there was a somewhat heated thread on BGG regarding randomness in BB vs Dark Souls Board Game. My take is that in DS, I can not only manipulate the AI better, but enemies being 100% knowledge on what they do (as are bosses after you see their AI deck and their order), positioning and movement play a huge role in avoiding taking damage, mitigate the dice, whereas in BB, I'm more likely to play guessing game in combat.
Well I can only review my experience with the game, not yours :P As for the tray, yeah I hate it. I still see no reason it cannot have a lid. TBH even if I hadn't spilled it twice I'd still post it as a negative because it's a needless risk that doesn't need to be present. Fairness: True, life isn't fair. I'd like my board games to be pretty close to fair though :) Resetting cards: I listed more than the numbered cards: there's everyone decks, the tiles, monsters, consumable, rewards and dream abilities to reset as well. It's not some quick thing, especially compared to other games. Agreed pretty much on randomness. I'm fine with stuff being random, but I want it somewhat in my control. To have something fully out of my control though and have it be a direct line to failure isn't cool though, so the random draw of cards I praise but the tile draw I don't :) Heck I'd be cool with the tile draw if objectives weren't affected by their layout. Sounds like I should probably avoid BGG though on this haha :D
@@TheKingofAverage I won't even try to make a case on the Chapter card errors, that's just CMON being lazy, especially with the delays during this project. Those should've been caught. However, regarding the lenghty FAQ thread, maybe it's my cynical, practical or whatever nature, but these days and for many years now, it's just been what I expect. Not saying I'm okay with it, but have been used to it for years. I rarely get into a game on release, so by the time I get my hands on it, BGG will have a plethora of threads in the Rules section of that game's forums which I will go through even before thinking of playing the game for the first time. While I did back BB, given how distributions went, got mine in early February, so by the time I was ready to play, I could do the normal rote of going through the Rules threads and learning the game properly. There are also a good deal of "useless" questions in that thread, just bloating it up, like "how I do I store the cards and tokens in the insert?" Seriously, it's not rocket science. Same for for basic question which can be answered with a direct rulebook quote. Not saying there aren't questions that the thread is invaluable for, just making the case that the size of the thread isn't a real indication of the number of issues. But like I said, sadly, I've come to expect this from every game, from every company.
Considering I really enjoy it with my house rule - yes. But I can't review based off of a house rule so the review represents what I think of it prior to that :) As I said the core of the experience is the card play and that's amazing. Fixing the fail state was very easy to house rule and with that out if the way the only main Issue is the component quality.
I already had this up for sales, and i did not unbox it like a month+ back, after i watch some reviews/gameplay. Similar opinion as you. It should have somehow given better card combos. Did not even bother getting most of the expansions as I already feel it was going to be quite repetitive. It could probably be better, if we using 2 hunters combo ( using hunter A and hunter D ) , there are some "bonus" that can be used once per scenario. Just need more more house rules. This were similar to Dark Souls board game...but Dark souls seems better mechanics.
@@TheKingofAverage I guess, everyone has their own term for "good" game. We could be saying it good, but we never get it played with our fellow BG groupies , and while some "mehhh" games gets played more often than not. I am more a painter than a gamer, but at times, the game just did not appeal me to even paint!. LOL. Anyway, I am hoping more house rules variant sets in BGG, just like Dark Souls, to allow more fun/streamlined gaming it. BB was a hit and miss for me. I was so hopefully it might do better than Dark Souls.....if CMON did not just made it so rigid, but allow more people to really test the mechanics more. Obviously, that is like opening either a can of worms or a whole new gaming opportunities.
I'm with you on thinking that it's a great game at its core that needs a few tweaks to make it really shine (ironically Dark Souls in the same genre was the same). We played with the timer and still had a blast albeit found the random tile draw much too consequential for success/failure and difficulty. The timer added an additional point of tension (in the same way that running out of cards in Gloomhaven does). However with this it would have been a much wiser design choice to have set map tiles mission designs - this would have added a tonne of time onto the design and playtesting though and I suspect it was more out of time/financials that they didn't do it this way.
Sadly I think you're right. I found thankfully that being down to your last life adds just as much tension for my group so have been enjoying it just as much if not more :D
One time I play a game that 3 of the side mission basically finished by themself because of a tile placement lol They need to at least limit the placement for some of the named tiles i.e. if you find A, link B two tile away with 2 random tiles in between.
LOL while never that lucky, I did have that happen once :D TBH I feel they did the random tile placement to save development time, ideally each chapter just had a setup. They are part way there with some of the setup cards they have (like with Chapter 2 of The Great Hunt for instance) but yeah ideally it was just planned out better.
Not sure if it's just me but I found being able to return to fight a boss with their health lowered or in second phase anti thematic too. What i would do was wrap it all up at the end of the chapter with the build and items i had and attempt to fight the boss all in one go. If i died i'd just try again
Ah that's an interesting take! I feel it does require a certain build though - If your build is quick damage for normal enemies but have nothing to prevent sustained damage then you can't beat these bosses, no way so it's a bit limiting there -> but I LOVE the idea of a boss gauntlet style game - I'll have to try that!
@@TheKingofAverage fair observation, at the very least bosses should go back to full health if you die to them, i think the one reborn was the only boss that took a handful of attempts to down solo
If i understand well. What you hate is the timer and map limitation associated with randomness and the link between. As for material low quality as I understand. Overall all the other design choice (campaign, hunter mechanic, monster mechanic, boss mechanic, deck building, reward/consumables, monster diversity and replayability factor) So if we focus on gameplay. I ll simply choose what I like between time management and death management 🤪 Thanks for the review and keep on your awesome work !!!!
Yes you got it! Sadly I cannot review a game based on my own personal house rule (just inform you of it) - if it was death count in the rulebook this review would have been a MUCH kinder review :)
One of the easiest house rules for the game that helps with multiple issues is simply to use one less of the random tiles instead of the recommended amount. Playing with 2 hunters? Add 3 random tiles instead of 4. I did that by mistake once and it made the game a bit more enjoyable without breaking it completely.
Can certainly help of course, but not perfect. In my example I actually revealed another random tile after that bad set (hoping for the Great Bridge) so if that one was omitted it'd not have helped that bad layout :(
@@TheKingofAverage You're not wrong. I had one map that was randomly laid out SO POORLY there was literally nothing we could do to win. We realized that about halfway through so getting through the rest of the game was depressing hah. The second time we tried that chapter it was almost too easy because of the map layout! Because of that, there is NO WAY we play by the rules and start a campaign over after failing a chapter. Just no way. I have been enjoying the game regardless, but I can definitely see why some people would be turned off completely.
They move at 2 different times. 1, if you start your movement in their space they will follow you 1 space away. Then at the end of your turn they would activate if they are on your tile or 1 tile a way they move one again and attack if in your space now. The scourge beast moves 2 but I simplified that a bit here to generalize it (before Scourgebeats you have to get a mob/minion there as well and they only move the 1.)
Thanks for the review, highly useful as not had chance to play myself yet but now I know to be prepared to houserule the time track. On time limits in games have you played something like sword and sorcery? What do you make of those time limits?
I actually love games that control time - usually through set amount of actions. For instance Bloodrage has the 3 acts and that's it. I'd actually be FAR more okay with the timer if each chapter had a preset map layout that was tested and balanced. But that would have required more dev time so instead we're left with the quick and dirty random draw.
How about when time runs out the players run out of unlimited continues instead of the game ending abruptly. So game ends once all players die after time limit or they succeed.
You are very welcome! Personally, with the house rule I really like the game a lot - but I can't review based on a house rule, I need to review what they provided so that colors the review quite a bit.
Agreed! Board gaming without an app anyway. This is a great example of how an app would have ruined the whole boardgame for me as there's no way to "do more turns" in an app that doesn't support my hous erule.
You seem to be right on the fence if this game is worth getting at retail( 150-170 retail in australia), from the video, the biggest issue would be the timer, which is easy fix with a house rule, can you play without the timer??
I use the track as it's important to reset the map through it, but the fail state I changed to a death count which has worked really well - we've still had a failure based on death count but now it's a failure because we got too confident in combat, just like the video game :) Sadly I cannot review a game based on house rules but instead on what's offered, but if it had the house rule I use as a rule in the rulebook this entire video would be a lot more positive. Hopefully that helps answer your question enough :) Still the issues with tile quality, etc. but there's a lot to love here as well!
@@TheKingofAverage thanks you for the reply, the lack of quality of components has never been a big deal for me, as i play games for enjoyment, but i take what you said on board
