@@LeoMario-m4n Child is way too expensive to churn more than a few times if you're looking to advance the game... Nevinyrral's Disk and Soul of New Phyrexia, with either Mycosynth Lattice or Smokestack in play, however....
Boardwipes are fine, but they are only better if they are asymmetrical IMO. I'd rather run more spot removal that can hit multiple permanents vs potentially setting myself back
Agreed. This is the difference between a frustrating reset that prolongs the game vs something that actually pushes forward to a conclusion. I'd rather have just my side get wiped and having an opponent win than having us aimlessly durdle off the top of our decks because some dunce boardwiped us all without any plan to close out the game.
If you are not building the board in expectation of a board wipe, sure. if you are dropping all your hand on a board that you cannot break through and will need to wipe later? Yeah it’s gonna be tough. However that’s when player skill and game state knowledge comes into play. Knowing when to commit to the board vs commit to a wipe used to be a crucial component to playing the game.
@@ryanbolson23Exactly. Ideally, you wipe when you're hurt the least, or as close to it as possible. But any wipe that keeps.you in the game and gives you a chance to come back is a smart move.
Spot removal being a lot of times instant speed can also be an answer to Teferi's protection while boardwipes can't because they're usually sorcery speed.
EDH deckbuilding is accidentally going to inspire a new destruction effect based on ignoring phasing and it will inevitably come out when the phyrexians return from being phased. the first spell will be called time break or something like that.
With more and more commanders nowadays being kill on sight that snowball out of control I have been leaning more towards board wipes. There’s three opponents and a swords won’t deal with them all.
@@MacwyleeYeah I used to run like 2 counter spells, but then everyone started going board wipe heavy (another reason I think casual players are more competitive than they can ever admit) and now I run like 10 just to ensure I have one for any wipes.
I usually run 2-3 boardwipes and 6-8 instant speed single target removal spells, and then depending on what the decks theme is there might be more removal For example in my green and white human tribal deck im running humans that can get rid of enchantments/artifacts and i dont count them as removal spells And regarding counterspells, im running atleast 3 and atmost 6 if any
Personally I only run 1-2 board wipes per deck and I aim for them to be asymmetrical if possible and/or thematic with the deck. Maybe it would be better to run more or not for the reasons presented, but I don't want to play the games with constant board wipes every turn. Games got to end.
I think running a lot of board wipes is poor form in casual commander. Not because I think they’re too powerful, but because running a ton of wipes indicates to me a desire to win that I keep bring told isn’t the point of commander.
I think the problem comes in when we have such a huge plethora of wrath effects that people always tend to default to the “best” one without considering that there may be a board wipe that actually serves your game plan. Sure Farewell gets rid of everything but find me a white coded deck that actually benefits from mass exile. In my Wick the Whorled mind deck my wrath effects are designed around the game plan so when I do hit everyone’s board clean I can then rush for a win instead of a big reset.
This right here. I do my best to only run wipes that still leave me in the best position. Blasphemous Act with Jared Carthalion as the Monarch makes for a board with the one true Voltron standing. Necromantic Selection with Shirei returns a lot of your board back. There won't always be one perfect choice but there are ways to make them work asymmetrically, even when they aren't
Cut, copy, paste. Stop repeating the over exaggerations of the internet. Ward isn't that bad. If only cards from the last 4 years existed, not the last 30, it still wouldn't be a problem. $10 says Flying messes your games up more than Ward.
In addition to any strategical argument, let's not forget, a game with more than 2 board whipe resolving is so boring! 1-2 seems like the sweet spot for me a normal game, and it's looks like that's about the number of board whipe happening when everyone plays 1-2 in their deck.
Honestly, unless your meta has combos i would never run a swords or summilar card any more. Single target removal has to be either reuseable (blink, reanimate, some sort of triggered or activated ability) or have a verry broad target range (generous gift) to be worth a deckslot. Besides that i feel boardwipes are still underplayed by most so unless you "combo" with them board protection spells are less useful than you'd think (teferi is an exception since it does way more than that)
Funny that you bring this to the table. 2 days ago I was playing my Athreos, Shroud-Veiled deck and I run a lot of removal. Something like 8 boardwipes and 16 spot removals. And on the first game, I casted 4 boardwipes. In 2 of them, players were able to avoide the wipe. In the first one, one player had a indestructible effect for his creatures and the other 2 players had a white Flare and Eerie Interlude. In the second one, one player used Tefferi's P, one had Boromir at the table and the other one used Heroic Intervention. I feel like we've been getting too many tools to avoid wipes and more and more anwser or loose creatures. This is getting kind of out of hand and (consequently) making Green, Black and White even more and more dominant
My Oloro deck has like 20 wipes, including attacker specific wipes (I like those to help discourage being attacked) Board wipes ARE the spot removal in that deck. I once removed a lone burnished hart with a damnation. That's $60 (at the time) to eliminate a $0.60 non-threat. Sometimes it's about sending a message. And even still theres a few pieces of spot removal.
No, this is a bad time. Can you imagination 4 players with decks filled with board wipes???? I want to play multiple games, not one 10 hour game. On top of that the point of the game is to throw a wrenche into your "enemies" plans and not just nuke the board. How many times have we wipe the tabe to have one person go off the next 2 turns to another board wipe. Where after the dust has settled their is one guy who isn't recovering fast enough but also has a board wipe?!?! Now I see why Pokémon is so popular.
While I see your point and can agree to some extent that these cards make board wipes worse, I don't think it's that significant. First of all, even if an opponent casts a teferi's pro, you still likely have two opponents that are affected by the wipe. That is still a very high rate play, especially since you're likely behind on board when you decide to deploy the board wipe. Secondly, the thing about spot removal. If you cast a spot removal spell and your opponent casts a teferi's pro, you both wasted a card (although of different quality), and your other two opponents essentially gained free advantage. The board wipe would leave one opponent ahead or on par, while the others are set back. You should not be set back too much unless you play the wipe when you're ahead (don't). If the argument is that the ubiquity of these effects is the problem, such as if all of your opponents are likely to have one in hand at all times, I don't think we're there or will ever be there. Interesting topic you brought up here though! Keep up the good work.
Interesting contrast with this week's EDHRec podcast, where they mention (not for the first time) starting to run more board wipes in response to powerful commanders with high ward costs, since they make spot removal feel very bad. Taken together it sounds like the game is going to an interesting kind of parity between spot removal, mass removal, "spot protection," and mass protection!
It's so weird right now. Cards are getting more and more powerful, demanding more spot removal. Then came 'Ward' as a new form of protection, creating a bigger demand for board wipes. And now we have a re-introduction and demands for cards protecting your entire board against board wipes like phasing, blinking and mass indestructible effects, rendering both forms of removal useless at times. I wonder where this leads to. Maybe in future sets we get removal cards that say: "Permanents lose Ward or hexproof until end of turn, destroy target permanent" or something like that. Either way, I have mixed feelings about this. I want to remain within a certain budget for commander decks, yet I want to be able to compete with lvl 6/ 8 (-ish) decks as well, but I don't want to buy all the powerful cards those decks are playing. So in order to be able to compete, as you explained in this video, I have to play quite a lot of removal to keep those decks in check and this leads to among other things, A); Longer games, B); Tougher and harder decisions concerning threat assessments and C); A lot of staple removal cards that keep re-appearing in my decks because those simply are the best options within my budgetary constraints. IOW; less diverse decklists. But now that there is so much more Ward and other forms of protection going on, removal sometimes isn't even an option anymore so at times these removal cards feel like a waste of space. So it becomes harder and harder to build strong decks that can hang with the top 7, stay within budget and still have a diverse decklist. And I hate to keep swapping fun, playable cards for some generic removal card that is not fun to play with and also not fun to play against. So yeah, maybe I should let go of my budget or maybe I should get used to the idea that my decks can't be around lvl 7 if I want variety in my cards and still keep the budget.
I try to run multi-permanent spot removal to have versatile options (e.g. in my mono red artifact recursion deck I run Liquimetal Torque with Shenanigans), and try to run a couple of one-sided sweepers. They cost a bit more, but if im gonna hit mass removal, I want it to work for me. Hitting all permanents just feels like too much of a 'panic button' to make a game fun. So, things like Spectral Deluge in mono blue are my kinda jam.
Ward can be interacted with (although it’s annoying and difficult at times). It’s not hexproof or shroud which straight up says “no”. Ex: Imagine if Voja, Jaws of the Conclave had Hexproof or Shroud instead of ward 3. Would be much worse. Ward is definitely annoying and really just punishes the player who chooses to interact with it, but at least you can interact with it.
Here's another persepctive on why Boardwipes have gotten a bit worse: Because Farewell is SO good. When there is a Farewell player nobody is going to overextend anymore, because Farewell is so strong.
This is why I'm such a fan of cards like Unexplained Absence or Druid of Purification or even Guff Rewrites History. It's often a 3-for-1 which is really nice in commander, but it's not a full board wipe.
Honestly recently i've been working on finding unique removal options in a friend's old collection. Much how this channel covers a lot of old cards that don't see much play. Anything that can dodge indestructable or hexproof is proving to be worthwhile.
I find with so many new commanders and cards basically making a board state for free (esper urza, Sauron, free spells), spending a whole turn to wipe the board isn’t worth the opportunity cost of racing. They will rebuild faster than you will 90% of the time these days.
I swear every time someone in my playgroup plays a boardwipe, it results in somebody besides them winning. These spells are best when asymmetrical, if it doesn't contribute to you winning it's just adding time to the game
I don't know if I'd call this a changed situation: the "I protect all my stuff" cards aren't exactly new. Cheeky responses to board wipes have been a thing as long as I've been playing Commander. It's always been something that I've had to play around or risk king making the player who has an answer. The solution I've come to is to be okay with paying a little (sometimes a lot) more mana for some of your boardwipes, & try to tend towards wipes that are more or less 1 sided. One of your opponents might have an answer, but at least if you get to keep most of your stuff they can't immediately end you on the backswing. It also helps to keep the game moving towards a conclusion whereas regular wipes tend more to stall the game out a little.
Most threats nowadays get so much value either on etb or cast and stick around longer due to built in ward, single target removal overall isn’t cutting it. One-sided wipes are about the only thing i play aside from the versatile removal spells like Beast within that just ideally deal with whatever nonsense is out there that day.
This is why exile and forced sacrifice are better (and often higher-costed) than general destruction - they're harder to protect against outside of blue. Baiting out the big protection spells is part of playing Magic - just like baiting out countermagic.
Two reasons you could say board wipes are better now is because you can play the protection cards thereby upping the card advantage even more. They also get around Ward, Hexproof, and Shroud which are on what feels like half of all creatures. Hyperbole.
They are needed and there are answers. If you get board wiped constantly run more cancels, blinks, phasing it has answers to it like all cards. Most board wipes are expensive CMC as well. I don't see it as unfun if my deck is slower and I don't have 1000 1 mana dorks. I see it as one of the core ways to get me back in the game. That being said board wiping for no reason is unfun. I do it with a win strategy in mind. Non cedh players can drop crazy things quick still and spot removal is no where near effective in a game with more than 2 people.
Ehhh I recommend reading Kristen Gregory's article on card kingdom about edh players needing to run more sweepers. With how much ward there is in the game now, not to mention single target protection pieces, sweepers have just gained a lot of value
I disagree for one reason - the proliferation of Ward is making spot removal harder to use, whereas boardwipes are just as effective (and Ward may make players run less protection).
kinda want a house table rule, no board wiping unless you can actually win the game, have a win con already. so many games just get reset. was playing 1 game until 4am because we made the mistake of playing a 5 player game
Our recent game went two hours longer than normal because we had 5. The fifth was a former member of our play group who was back in town though. There were at least 5 board wipes.
As new to this game I'm getting more of everything in my deck. What is the best strategy? In regards should I get a creature and try to do my thing or wait till the other player builds their thing and uses a spot removed or board wipe. Great video like all ways.
I agree boardwipes are getting worse but for a totally different reason. Boardwipes aren’t going to be good unless you can recover. If the green player can draw a ton of cards and ramp to recover quickly, you might be facing huge threats across the table with a totally empty board.
Unfortunately, in lower power games board wipes tend to make the game much longer if no one responds with some protection... I still run 3 i most decks, but I am more hesitant to cast them, and I lean more and more to those that do not hit me (as hard).
Your thesis is a bit inaccurate. It should be "targeted removal has improved," not this title. I also disagree that every set prints a "Teferi's protection" level card in every set.
Board wipes are still good especially with the insane amount of creatures that have ward stapled on. One sided board wipes have always been great. The problem is when everyone runs more board wipes...we get more board wipes played lol. 1-2 board wipes a game is expected and perfectly fine, but when that number goes to 3 or 4+ a game it can get real obnoxious especially when people play them past turn 10
I agree. I was noticing that myself. I'm starting to wonder if theft is best as most HIFI decks (Hi Intensity Hi effIciency) need their commander to function.
It's kind of the same idea with counterspells. Obviously the person winning is going to counter a board wipe if they have a big board. That swords to plowshare might as well pull that trigger and then you're clear to do so afterwards.
With how fast pace the format has become board wiping isn't a big deal. No longer is a rift devastating since i have ways to rebuild in a turn. It's not like how it was back in 2014 which honestly was the sweet era when the game was much more slow pace due to the cards that you often wanted to play in commander being those junk rares and mythics that no one would play in standard. You know, cards like enter the infinite, super expensive but when you cast them it shook the boardstate. Nowadays with all these cards made specifically for commander you no longer look for those omniscience and stuff when you can play something that is much cheaper and does the same thing or similar thing
I like what I have going on in my SUVs with Gold Rims deck. (Shorikai's Unmanned Vehicles with Gold Sleeves) Since I don't run a single creature, I can play every boardwipe! I'm very vulnerable to my opponents' artifact wipes tho
In my opinion its kinda good thing. Boardwipes in my opinion are already too strong. They are too cheap and too strong. Especially that we have ones like Farewell or Cyclonic Rift that basically resets the game. And everyone can agree that it isnt fun getting hit by one of these. I don't think that boardwipes should be "get out of jail free" card. However, at the same time I also think that protection effects are way too strong. Like, f.e Heroic Intervention for 2 mana is insanely strong and flexible spell. I think there should be more targeted or group protection spells (like your creatures/artifacts gain indestructibility/hexproof etc.) instead of that.
I actually think boardwipes are better than they’ve ever been. With the constantly creeping power level of cards and, commanders especially, board states get out of control faster than ever. Targeted removal often won’t address all of the problems on the table. However, both targeted removal and boardwipes are both necessary. That hasn’t changed-you want to run a combination of both, as always. And sure there are more and more protection spells, but mostly in white, which is fine. White needs unique strengths.
Lmao you can have your removal. Ill just load with protection. Way more advantage to building my board and protecting my stuff instead of wasteing a removal spell that helps my opponents more than me..
I really miss the appearance of Demo (not sure if that is how you spell his name)....this video format, without seeing him talking, feels very unpersonal and detached, it's almost like getting feedback from chatgpt.....I don't know what made him edit all his videos to remove himself from everything, but I do hope that he can come back sometime....really love the content anyway :)
I mean, commander, like all games, can be emotional. Vengence and impartiality are distractions. Sometimes you gotta step on someone's toes and sometimes you gotta let things go. I've seen and played many a game where two blusterous threats traded removal and targetted each other. Meanwhile a combo player was more or less passing each turn until he assembled his combo and auto won.
Behoren ward, it was more spot renovatie, though since ward I have been adding more board wipes. Actually some players in my pod are asking me to help, since im the "play removal" player 😅
Board Wipes are important, but the moment the third board wipe hits the board I'm already done with the game. If there is enough reason to actively run and/or play more than 2 board wipes, either you're in a tribal pod like Elves and Humans and should have let the game end OR there's Token maker on the board that isn't a creature.
Idk if I look at cards like Teferi’s protection as card advantage. I agree that a board wipe is card advantage, but mitigating or negating one isn’t. Like if I counterspell a Blue Sun’s Zenith I still count that as me and that opponent having net lost one card each.
@@irisnegroso would you say it’s card advantage every time an opponent paths someone else’s creature? It’s not an unreasonable take, but I don’t typically hear people evaluate it this way.
@@DanielEvanClarke That's the common evaluation of spot removal on multiplayer, but card advantage is not the only metric for winning the game, if you need to path a creature to not lose, you do it, unless somebody else can deal with the problem for you, in that case you hold your path for later.
I used aether spouts to put 5/7 slivers on top of dude's deck and he didn't have any draw or shuffles and those 5 extra turns I got out of that was enough to turn the game around
Yeah I donno about this philosophy. I’m not saying it’s wrong just not my style. Boardwipes is threat assessment on easy mode and usually makes the games much slower and go way longer than it needs to. Legit only boardwipes I run these days are cyc rift and toxic deluge (I know lots of people hate on cyc rift but fr, grow up, sorry not sorry)
I scoop after the 3rd board wipe every time. I came to play magic not durdle around staring at an empty table. Pack more spot removal. I will concede that WOTC needs to print EDH Specific spot removal. 2 for 1 should be the standard in EDH, not 1 for 1.
If you built a good deck, you shouldn't need any boardwipes. Boardwipes just reset the game. Why not just win or lose and play again? Were not cEDH over here. Boardwipes are for cringers
I'm not sure if the phase out effects make boardwipes worse. There have always been plenty of counterspells, now instead of getting your wipe countered and having no effect, it'll hit at least some of your opponents. There's a possibility that you as the person who cast the wipe might not catch so much heat that you become the arch enemy, because more than one player is ahead of the ones who got wiped. I don't think there are so many copies of that effect, or even that many decks that need to have a lot of copies of that effect that all of your opponents will have one in hand at the same time. Playing 1 or 2 phase out effects is not going to give anyone a good probability of drawing one every game unless they mulligan for it, and in the case of playing 2 gives a probability of next to zero for drawing both in the same game. Your argument for spot removal vs boardwipes works if your opponents have one Teferi's Pro, but not for decks that would be running enough phase out effects to actually make your boardwipes consistently worse. I have one deck where I run a lot of phase out board protection and I will tell you that I would absolutely use it on one creature, because I actually need that effect for my game plan. In that deck I'm not just running 1 Teferi's Pro, I'm running enough to have either a phase out effect or counterspell in my hand every turn after my board is typically set up. I pay for some cheap creatures and then take a lot of game actions to scale them as the game goes on. At that point I'm not trying to beat my opponents on the axis of card advantage, I'm trying to beat them on the axis of time investment and paying less mana to get more. Then, because my creatures are the card draw engines, they will make sure I don't fall behind so much on the axis of card advantage that my opponent can easily beat me. I think that would be common in decks that would be running a lot of redundant phase out effects, and probably one of the reasons they need to run them.
Persinally the only decks i see that have a sort of protection regulary are blink decks with mass blink effects, even then they often "waste" it for value
In my opinion, I do not see boardwipes as a problem when you benefit from it and end the game. Like, Artifact boardwipes + Ygra for example..... Or Zurgo Khan version + Obliterate.
Here's another persepctive on why Boardwipes have gotten a bit worse: Because Farewell is SO good. When there is a Farewell player nobody is going to overextend anymore, because Farewell is so strong.
I have 8 decks, and I probably have the same amount of board wipes and spot removal as I have decks across all of them. However, I don't play removal because I'm usually a combo or aggro deck. The strategy is to follow your rule 1 of not being a target or aggro faster than or be able to survive a board wipe. All that being said, Demo is right. Keep playing that removal so I don't have to.
Generic board wipes are less effective such as the classic Wrath of God for the reasons given in the video. There are however far more one-sided board wipes though where even if a player casts Teferi’s protection, the other two players are still devastated while your own board state remains largely unaffected. The only downside is when it’s the archenemy that evades the board wipe and destroying the other two players may be detrimental.
