Low skilled people continue to whine about this not being realistic, tactically relevant, or being a "circus trick." What they're really doing is attempting to conceal their lack of skill. Rather than blame a lack of fundamental skill for a poor result, it's easier to blame the evaluation for their poor showing. A drill like this is similar to taking a physical fitness test. It's a simple assessment of current capability. Pull ups, push ups, 2-3 mile run, etc. are also not tactical but testing on them periodically indicates fitness. Strong, fit people have no problem performing well on a PT test. Skilled pistol shooters have no problem performing well on El Presidente. Fat, weak people decry PT tests for the same reason poor pistol shooters decry El Presidente.
If you can run a good El Prez, you can do a lot of other things pretty easily. It's a great training tool. The super tactical crowd doesn't like this stuff but to heck with them. I don't see them going into bars and shooting the place up for "real world" tactical experience. And tell me you wouldn't want Vogel on your team if the chips were down!
Sometimes just having fun is ok. But I'll disagree with those people who say this isn't relevant. The time constraint adds pressure. People fall apart when pressure is added. In my defensive pistol classes, we work on each of these techniques individually. Having a drill like the el pres which works movement, draw, multiple targets, and reloads is highly relevant. Did I mention it's fun?
Holy crap.... All the people on here saying "This is so un-realistic" .... It's obvious that this is a drill to demonstrate proficiency, and this is clearly in a setting for learning proficiency (possibly in a competition setting because he talks about shooting in IDPA) Give it a break, try and learn something, or go clear your house again or something
All of these lame comments from people that are too lazy to train. I promise you this... People that run these drills, or practice some sort of useful gun handling skills, would make you look like a toddler in a "real life" gun fight. You'll wish you had been outdoors training, instead of eating Cheetos, and talking crap on the Internet. These drills aren't meant to be reenactments of real life scenarios, but THEY DO teach you things like, drawing your gun smoothly, quick target acquisition, shooting on the move, multiple bad guys, getting fast shots ON TARGET. You know... How to handle your gun. You people think just because you own a nice pistol, and watch a lot of gun videos, that you can handle yourself when the time comes. Uhh. It doesn't work like that. I train 3-4 days a week, and I still know that there are bad guys that still could be better, and faster than me. Most of you people buy a new gun, and are lucky to put one box of ammo through it. That ain't gonna cut it... Stop lying to yourself. And DEFINITELY stop trying to fool other people, that know better(like me). It would take most of you at least 3 seconds to draw from concealment, and get one shot off(and you'll probably miss anyway). A trained shooter could empty a whole magazine in you, center mass, before you could even clumsily dig your gun out of the holster. lol Good luck. I'd rather have this guy on my side than the guy that goes around showing off his 1911, because a .45 puts a big hole in ya, pal. But, that 1911 guy has only put two mags of ammo thru it, standing it one spot, slow firing at the bullseye. It's kinda like a 12 year old going to school bragging about having a fast car. It's a waste, because he doesn't even know how to drive it. LOL. Even if you shoot a box of ammo a year, you're STILL not a threat to anyone that knows how to handle themselves. 95% of the men that carry guns, couldn't shoot their way out of a church, if everybody else had their heads down praying. LOL
“Competition shooting is not the same as a real gun fight!!” Okay, sure...but a gunfight is always competition shooting. Y’all need to stop crying about practicalities and remember it’s just a drill to hone fundamental skills. It’s not like anyone is saying this is the only thing you’re ever supposed to do at the range.
LMFAO at all this fudds on the comment section commenting on a literal world champion shooter and SWAT team operator with their proper "real world tactics" based on "experience".. :D
This is so unrealistic. The cardboard targets aren’t shooting back. Training MUST be realistic! Only train with live rounds coming your way. This way you’ll be ready.
You start with hand in chest position or head position alnost surrender then take the shots its supposed to give the attacker the illusion you are done
No it's not. El presidente is a training exercise, the chest/head position is there to pick a uniform starting position, so we can measure performance by timing the exercise (otherwise some people would cheat by already placing hand on pistol or even aiming before beginning the exercise)
Pretty sure the El Prez was developed during the time where some law enforcement and guards were still carrying six shooters. But like TC said above, it combines a whole host of movement like reloading and target acquisition as well as being on the move (the spin) into one exercise. Dynamic training helps with real life combat - if and when it happens.
El Presidente was designed by Jeff Cooper for the personal security detail of a Central American nation. He wrote it at the end of his contract down there at the request of the Presidente's CoS who wanted the guard force to have one drill that they could work to keep their skills sharp. Cooper protested, saying that there are too many handgun skills that need maintenance to keep shooters proficient. The CoS insisted, so, Cooper wrote the El Presidente which is designed to be shot either from a duty rig or from concealment with a fully loaded weapon (1911), at 10 meters, on 3 targets one meter apart, 6 rounds-IPSC reload-6 rounds, all A-zone in under 10 seconds. Bear in mind this was a LONG time ago, many modern shooters have pushed that original standard down to sub 7 seconds and added other constraints and restraints. The 10 second all A-zone was what Cooper considered mastery and as he was a huge proponent of the 1911 tended to favor that weapon when envisioning this drill.
I'm sure that Vogel is kicking himself right now, after reading your brilliant comment. He's only one of the top shooters IN THE WORLD. lol But, YOU obviously know better than he does... GREAT comment, pal. People like you blow my mind................
@@jamiesloan5902 I just came from watching an Eric Grauffel video, world's best shooter, where his comment section was filled with people telling him he's "doing it wrong", and giving HIM tips 😂😆😂😆😂
@@paddypibblet846 right. All these tactical timmies and fudds that shoot 1,000 rounds per year don’t seem to understand that the difference between Bob, Eric, JJ, etc. and them is so incredibly large.
+chad haire Its intended for firearm handling evaluation. Few shooting drills are really real life oriented save for shoot houses, precision rifle shooting (with communication and response restraints) and some vehicle shooting. "Real life" would be force on force.
+Dave Smith You are correct--which why this is bullshit. And there are many better ways to do firearm handling evaluation. Firing at targets in back of you before you ID there is a threat or who they are, as they are doing here, is a good way to end up in state prison.
+chad haire I think you misunderstand me. It evaluates firearm handling, as in marksmanship, reloading, etc. Shoot/no shoot would fall under a different type of drill which would not be good for evaluation since the point of those drills is to respond to the situation (inherently implying that the situations will not be the same) and thus a poor yardstick to measure one's fundamental gun-handling ability over others. The El Pres and it's variants offer nothing more than what it was intended for.
+Dave Smith How you train is carried over to how you shoot. That is why we no longer allowed staff to pick up brass as they shoot during qualification. It caused officers to actually pick up their brass in real gunfights, and get killed. That is why the El Pre is bad bad bad.And pointless. There are better ways to evaluate the skills you mention.
+chad haire Evaluation is evaluation, simulation is simulation. Two totally different but symbiotic factors. You are training as you fight here, for firearm manipulation, just not tactics. To put it in perspective, should we never do "up drills" or marksmanship from various positions? We likely will never be standing in a single location and shooting a target there, but we do it because it trains the muscle memory in our arms for a single but very critical skill of getting a shot on the target before they can get one on us. That skill has no dynamic involvement of the legs, which certainly are necessary for combat, yet we do up drills and marksmanship because generally, most people are capable to running to cover easily, but manipulating a weapon is far more unnatural and so we channel our training to improving a single skill. Look at sports. Do they spend all or a majority of their training playing games for training? Quite the contrast, the biggest factor of their training is physical fitness which only trains them on one aspect of the sport at a time such as running, pushups, or short repetitions (such as serving or reaction to serves in tennis). They then bring all the individual skills they practiced by sparring or playing a match, but they do not only play matches.
You can be good on the range in competition and very fast. I was making a statement on honeing stills for the real world incidents. When you work 20 years in Law Enforcement 10 of those in a SWAT unit and involved in 3 shootings over 20 years then we can talk.
This is why no one takes ass clowns like you seriously other than impressionable kids who play call of duty. The cats out of the bag already in regards to all this "super secret ninja shooting skills 4 da steet" bullshit that LEO and military guys like to spout. As a Marine and competitive shooter, I can confidently say all of the world's best shooters are in competition shooting sports. The government doesn't care if you live or die, they spend no real effort trying to train you into a good shooter. They just need cannon fodder to pull a trigger against it's enemies. You can circle jerk yourself all you want as a "bad ass" hero and drink yourself to sleep watching Cop movies after beating your wife, no one thinks your profession is noble anymore since the modern day police are glorified castle guards who do anything but uphold the constitution.
Pls guys, don´t train to draw out of movement, reload, shoot fast and accurate shots on multiple targets! Maybe we get in a gunfight one day, and i don´t want to loose to a tactard. :D
Put on a coat,blade the targets towards you,mix friend and foe targets,face away from the targets,when you hear the targets turn,turn draw from under the coat,identify the foe targets,engage and fire.then I will be impressed.
It's a shooting drill. You do understand that a shooting drill isn't supposed to be an assessment of things like tactics, right? It's to establish a baseline to see your outright raw performance of putting rounds accurately on a target.
Yeah, he's a cop that placed 2nd in the World Shoot last year and regularly uses a almost completely stock Glock to beat the crap out of professional competition shooters using $5K plus race guns in major championships. You probably know way more about shooting than he does. www.winmss.com/stats/match/f77be9bd73cf4c15898bea4f7ecb34b8/002/overall
Robbie Daugherty well your half right he shoots production class meaning he competes against other almost stock guns also notice his mag pouches are behind hip bone which Is required in production. open class is where the race guns live
Austin Metts Wrong. Vogel has been shooting a G24 in Limited division for years. He placed second in the world shoot using a G35 in Standard division, which is the IPSC division that's most comparable to USPSA Limited division. I also shoot limited and I run a highly customized STI Edge, which is a race gun by any standard. It doesn't have a compensator or a red-dot sight like the open guns, but it's still a highly-tuned race gun. That said, I watched Bob Vogel place second in OPEN division at the pro-am several years ago. He used the same Glock 24 with iron sights to beat guys that WERE using full on race guns with compensators and red dot sights - something that is unheard of in our sport. Bob does shoot a G34 in production from time to time, but his main focus has been on Limited division for the last several years. He keeps his mag pouches behind his hip bone for both Limited and Production because it's easier than switching back and forth. Also, there's no production or open "class." In IPSC/USPSA guns are separated into divisions. Shooters are separated into classes, D, C, B, A, Master, and Grandmaster.
Do all that with a out of the box stock weapon. I am not knocking anyone's choice of handgun and race guns have their place I like them. But I spent my career being proficient with whatever weapon my employer placed in my hand.
Tim Dixon Mr. Vogel was, in fact, using a pretty stock weapon. A stock Glock 34. The only modification was the sights on his pistol...and he carries an identical pistol on duty as a law enforcement officer. Mr. Vogel worked full time as a police officer for a number of years.
TC InVA That ain't no race gun!!! But you can bet it also has an IDPA legal trigger. Stock Glock triggers leave a lot to be desired. And legal but tuned ammo. Bob is a pro and has learned over the years how to tune his equipment, as any other shooter might but few do. On the other side, so many think it's the equipment and that you can buy fast times. You can't.
