The mission of punishment by reducing the German population as much as possible. Churchill admitted that openly. Cant see much difference between this and the Nazi mission to kill as many jews as possible. Definite subjugation or ethnic/ moral clearances justifie any actions in total war too?
@billotto602. Many years later when a statue was raised for HARRIIS. The only official who went to unveil it was T5HE QUEEN MOTHER .not a member of the government was present.
Churchill was an incredible leader, but........his attitude towards Bomber Command the moment the war was over beggars belief. I've had the privilege of spending hundreds of hours investigating an ex 3 Group Bomber Command airfield. I have recovered many artifacts, and they are a tangible representation of more than 55,500 young men lost on operations from this Command during the war. I have the utmost respect for those young men, many of whom have no known grave.
Speer noted that "in the western theatres of war ten thousand anti-aircraft guns were pointed toward the sky…the anti-aircraft force tied down hundreds of thousands of young soldiers" (381-2).
Consider if you will, that many of those Anti-Aircraft guns were the dreaded 88 mm flak gun which could also serve as an Anti-Tank gun. How much harder would it have been for the Western Allies and the Russians to advance towards and into Germany if those flak guns had been available for use as Anti-Tank guns? The casualty figures amongst tank crews, tank mounted infantry and fighter-bomber aircraft would have been far higher. Mark from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
Speer also stated that losing the submarine factories by RAF Bombing (Earth Quake Bomb) was a strategic blow - losing the Battle for the Atlantic. The BBC drama does not mention this fact.
@@capcompass9298 The Shootist. With John Wayne, James Stewart, Lauren Bacall, Richard Boone, a young Ron Howard and others. I also like that film a lot. Would like to watch it again.
The way Harris was treated and all those brave men in Bomber Command was vile. May they rest in peace and i for one give thanks for what they did to save us all from a greater evil. Winston Churchill was a great British Prime Minister, but his politics over this was not his "Finest Hour".
@@wor53lg50He was born in Britain. His mother was British, born in Tanganika, his father British, born in Kenya. Doubtful you even know who your parents were.
You can't compromise when the lives of your own country are at stake because of a madman intent on taking over Europe in whatever way he could. Namby pampy methods of today like smack the naughty boy on the hand don't work. It only gives rights to ricidivism. And that's what happens today. Back in the real world of back then, in WW2, all Harris wanted to do was nip it in the bud, and "get the bloody war over and done with without losing too many lives"! Like he said when asked by the reverend, about the horror, he said it was horrible. His methods unfortunately, would not work today due to the snowflakes in the top brass more worried about diplomacy in favour of the enemy, than getting rid of a tyrant. Had Bomber Harris been given the support when he needed it, the war might have been over sooner. History told us that.
@@buddah_stickIn Goebells own words 'We are at war, and we want total war!' Don't forget the Nazi's murdered about 10 million people: Jews, Homosexuals, Anti-War protestors, religious people of various faiths, the mentally ill, insane, deformed, coloured, in fact anyone they decreed to be unworthy of living because the were not Aryan enough. Any who ancestry had Jews in it had to have as a maximum of 1/8th - 12.5% Jewish ancestry to stand a chance of surviving; that figure by the way meant that if your great grandmother was Jewish you were in with a chance of being murdered, great great grandmother being Jewish but not practising you stood a chance. They were evil beyond measure. Hitler and the Nazi's decided that if the German people were declared to be unfit of the evil philosophy, then they must die and Germany destroyed. They did a pretty good job of visiting their version of Wagner's 'Gotterdamerung' on Germany.
@@buddah_stick I think you are saying in 1942 best learn German and collaborate in the Holocaust. I disagree. Having almost lost our army in 1940, most of our artillery, tanks etc it was the only way to pursue the war in Europe.
Hilter, Musso, and Churchill held a highly secret meeting in the Dolomites during the Phoney War. There was a pond nearby and Hitler suggested 'whoever catches the single carp in the pond would be deemed the winner of the war so it need not be fought'. Adolf unloaded his Lugar into the pond, but deflection saved the fish. "Musso," Hitler said, "you are a gutte svimmer, jump in and catch it". Half an hour later, Musso emerged fishless and freezing. All this time, Winnie sat sipping his tea. He finished, put down his cup, took up his tea spoon and began emptying the pond. "Vat are you doink?" yelled Hilter. Winnie continued draining the pond, replied, "Mit is going to take us long time mbut we are going to win this war!"
Superb film. I learned more about Harris' contributions from watching this than anything else I've ever watched or read about WW2. I'd heard of Harris, of course, but really knew nothing, no clue as to where he fit in the scheme of things overall. I'm totally unfamiliar with actor John Thaw but I found him instantly credible as the C-in-C of RAF Bomber Command. I was glued from start to finish. Yes, it's possible the film gets into discussions or scenes involving the "ethics" of war a little too deeply. I'm not sure this would've occurred in an era that was far less weak-kneed & over-sensitive to such concerns, as the military of the western nations & their squeamish populations are today. One can see the clear-sighted brilliance & logic of Harris' all-out air strategy against German cities, especially Berlin. Politics inevitably sidetracked his efforts, along with many other interfering factors. This film reminded me of a stage play, though, of course, a stage play couldn't utilize film-clips; today, however, such inclusions would be no problem, I imagine. Anyway, this was excellent & Thaw was superb as Harris. I now want to learn so much more about the man, both pre & postwar!
There's a YT historian who goes by the handle "Lord HardThrasher" who did an excellent series on the WW2 bombing campaign. He especially details the failures of the first half of the war.
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our Country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out." William Tecumseh Sherman
I was born in August 1953...not quite the 'anniversary of the bomb', (or bombs) of Hiroshima (& Nagasaki) ...but perhaps close enough to sadly commemorate the events _and_ _continue_ to hope that no further weapons such as they, will ever be employed again, on our world, or, indeed, any other, especially where any form of sentient life (at least) exists. With respect and thanks to those involved in making this film, to the now deceased actors within it, to Lady & 'Bomber' Harris...and R.I.P. to the lost souls of the services throughout the war(s) and likewise, to the civilians, who suffered injuries, and / or lost their lives to the senseless, yet necessary actions of war brought about through the actions of the evil which (some) men do. ... R.I.P. John Thaw & Robert Hardy, (et al).
Producers, author, actors, circumstances, philosophies, ethics and strategies both well-reasoned and merely political are explored, bared to naked truth and pounded into the viewer...no rose-colored glasses graced our screens with this film. Thank you for sharing this film with us. Am still reeling from the unvarnished disregard by the power-mad maniacal goons who start wars. Putin, among others, would know.😢
A very sad and thought provoking film. Imagine if Hitler had had such airpower at his disposal in 1940, he would have no doubt used it and Britain would have been defeated.
Saw it in 89. have it on DVD that the BBC released. Good programme and he did what he had to do with the resources and technology of that time. Have 2 signed prints of Lancasters with his signatures, proud to have them. Shame the BBC did not also release or repeat another drama in the same 'series' of dramas, one on Donald Campbell - Across The Lake.
Just had a shock like a slap in the face & a bucket of cold water on the head. They transitioned from a living room, listening to a radio news report to a newsreel showing planes in formation followed by aerial combat & a shot from a gunner's perspective, all while playing "Chattanooga Choo-choo". Many eons ago, i took tap dancing lessons. Chattanooga Choo-choo was one of the songs we danced to in a recital, so lots of practice, it got well entrenched in my brain. Sadly, i only persued tap for another year, but over 55 years later, i can still remember some of it, especially the change ups. The shot with the gunner was timed well, the staccato rhythm teleported me back to class switching into a faster routine. The stunning contrast between a group of 10 years old girls having fun in a dance lesson & an indiscriminant group of people having hell & death rain down on them from above was a considerable shock to my system. As it's almost bed time, i.think i'll have a nice cup of tea while watching a light comedy & finish watching this tomorrow.
Whilst organising a holiday with a travel agent, she asked if I had ever been to Hamburg, No I said, but a great Uncle of mine used to go there often for work. Oh she replied, what was his job. Straight faced I replied, Bomb aimer.
I was travelling back to the UK from Austrian skiing trip on a coach in the 1980s... I overheard to two older gentlemen in the seats infront of me, as we traversed the ring road to the east of Munich, one said to the other, "Munich looks lovely doesn't it?" to which his friend replied, "well a lot better than it did from 23,000ft in 1944".
guygardiner. Correct. By that stage of the war it had become a legitimate strategic target. The assertion that it was a deliberate attack purely on civilians, was a downright lie. Yes, it was a bad raid - three seperate raids actually - but the death toll reached nothing like the wildly inflated figures first issued by German propaganda, and gleefully jumped on by the bleeding heart war crime proponents, desperate to promote an equivalence of the Allies with the Nazis. In an attempt to finally reach a conclusion as to the actual death toll from the raids, in 2004 an enquiry was set up by the Dresden Authorities, to study the matter. It reported it's findings in 2008, which were that the number of civilians killed was between 22,000 and 25,000. Still a high number, but aeons away from the 'up to 500,000' number touted in the past.
@@vincekerrigan8300Actually the accepted number prior to that / "touted in the past" was 35,000 to 50,000. Harris was also consistently clear about his aims in bombing Germany, including Dresden - to kill Germans and destroy their cities and morale. Nothing else. "The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive ... should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany ... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."
@robertstallard7836 It's Harris' best known quote - if you need a "reference" for it you need to do a lot more homework. As for it being "absolutely vital to winning the war" that was Harris' view even forty years later, but by the end of the war all other leaders, even Churchill who wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, had realised they'd been wrong and that far from "winning the war" and saving allied lives it had cost allied lives instead as money, production, effort and lives had been poured into Bomber Command at the expense of everyone else - not just Coastal Command who'd nearly lost the war at sea and in the Atlantic but the troops in North Africa, Asia and even in Europe. Even accepting Harris' unpleasant premise that one British soldier's life was worth more than hundreds of thousands of innocent German civilians' lives (I'm sure you can find the "reference" for that), his insistence that bombing them back to the stone age (to misuse a later expression) would shorten and win the war and so save allied lives simply hadn't worked and that was clear by 1946.
@robertstallard7836 It's not a question of "believe me" but of fact, and you're talking utter, absolute, unadulterated, uninformed cr@p. If ANYONE had a nuclear bomb early in the war and they'd used it, as the allies did later in the war, it would have been 100% legal under the L0AC in force at the time, as it was in 1945. There were NO international agreements or restrictions that covered it, as I've attempted to explain. That changed completely in 1949 with Geneva Convention 4 on the protection of civilians in time of war, proportionality, etc, so that now and since 1949 it's been a war crime. Every country in the world has signed up to GC4. No exceptions. None. NONE. That isn't "presentism" or "pearl clutching", that's simply how it is. As for "rockets and bombs falling everywhere", absolute rubbish. Germany didn't bomb any civilian targets in Britain or anywhere else until AFTER Britain had first bombed Monchengladbach on 11 May 1940, and Germany didn't launch V-2s until over four years later, in September 1944. Believe you? My dogs are better informed.
Britain and France had either been at war, or preparing for war with Germany for the first half of the century, the idea was also to impress on the German people: you can’t keep doing this.
The country was united then A coalition government Then voting was reintroduced And the country fell apart again Great mistake giving democracy to the people!
Pity that Churchill did not give Dowding any real praise. Dowding amongst most of the senior leaders early in the war was left out by Churchill from any meaningful praise or accolade and that was contemptible of Churchill.
I thought he also played Harris in the film Dam Busters. Basil Sydney played Harris in that film and passed away in 1968. They could be twins or brothers! Very close resemblance.
Difficult to watch a film with such poor video quality when other war films from the 40s and 50s have been restored and are available in excellent quality.
Bomber Command lost more crews on one op in 1943, to Nuremberg, than fighter commamd did in the whole of the Battle of Britain. But Winston Churchill decided they were unimportant.
from this distance in time, we all think the war ended in 1945, but there was fighting in Greece till 49' and in the Philippines the troops who had fought were still there and NOT being paid. they had a mutiny, back pay and travel home to both the US and the UK were the demands.
The state of war concerning Germany was offical finished by the western Allies as late as in 1951/2. Partisan fighting in the Ukraine and the Baltic against Sovjetunion lastet into the 1950ies, killing only in Lithuania more than 200.000 people out of a population of average 3 Million.
@@rudolfkraffzick642 Well, Ukraine's not done fighting for its freedom. And Taiwan is under some pressure from the PRC. It's anyone's guess when the next world war will pop off.
Not shown here is any of the academic work on the just war and its limits. There are many historic and modern examples of characters in the same situation: US General Grant, Oppenheimer, Trueman. They are not who initiated a policy of mass-murder, but the ones who stopped it.
@@MarkLawden Germany could of beaten any two of the Allies I suspect, it was only the channel that saved Britain, distance that saved Russia and in the case of the USA, both.....There, that wasn't bad considering I just made that up and it's nearly one in the morning! Lol
What a horrible thing to do to your own brothers, fellow Europeans/Caucasians. A completely unnecessary "war" over a border dispute in Poland (and the Soviets took the OTHER half of Poland two weeks later and nobody declared war on Stalin).
Interesting to see how the British people viewed their concept of morality in the Great War from that of WW2. The war’s meaning and brutality with the slaughter in the trenches was never in question. However, with the slaughterhouse of 1940s Germans seemed to be unacceptable. But now Britain has gone back to its old ways in accepting wars of genocide, starvation and civilian murder.
My mother was awarded mention in dispatches for her work in Bomber command. My father, who met my mum after the war was with the Dambuster squadron, 617, as bomb engineer. Worked with Barnes Wallis. Superb film, John Thaw was a great actor.
Whatever work she did, hopefully she got a '39-'45 star to go with the MiD as she was fully entitled to it. Edit: FWIW, Harris tried to get the Dambusters project binned!
@@fraseredk7433 a good start would be books on Lincolnshire & Yorkshire Airfields Patrick Otter wrote a good series. The Lincolnshire Aircraft Recovery Group at East Kirkby museum are also good
Tim webste…. We all owe these wonderful men who gave their all for us a great debt of gratitude. A breed of men the like of which will never be seen again.
@@fraseredk7433 ahh read most off new zealand men in airforce fighting japan were killed in accidents and not in action.'''- Have counted 3 O'Dwyer who were kiled in accidents in pacific war
My aunt's fiance was killed during training as bomber aircrew. Many more crews perished over Europe. Sacrificed on a huge scale to hit German war industry hard.
A Bomber Command clasp was finally struck in 2013. I received this on behalf of my father, who had completed a full tour. As a bomb aimer he flew missions to the Ruhr, Hamburg and Berlin - not Dresden, though he would have done so if ordered. He died in 1991, still hurt by the cowardice of those who had sent them out to do the job then backed off, denying responsibility. It takes little courage to ask young men to die an early death, even less to deny you did so.
No longer Great British it’s now an invaded country full of foreign scroungers arriving on mass who are bleeding the country dry and no one is doing anything about it..
So true. Unfortunately Churchill was a consummate politician, a lying caniving bastard at times, and got his just deserts in the General Election of 1945 but what he did to Bomber Harris was in my mind unforgivable, he ordered the RAF to burn Dresden and they did, then comes out and follows Eisenhower and Spaatz calling the raid "Terror bombing". Just a two faced arsehole. And Attlee was of the same ilk. It was on his watch that Harris didn't get the knighthood he so deserved not just for himself but those boys who flew the raids from May 1942 until the end of the war, those boys who came back, and the 55,573 boys who perished either on operations or training RIP to all of them. And it was Attlee's government who didn't strike a Bomber Command campaign medal. That ignominy wasn't rectified until 2013. It very ironic that I'm writing this two and a half hours after the latest General Election polling stations closed on 4 the July 2024. Another lot of useless politicians to be chucked out of office, unfortunately the ones who will gain office will be even worse for this country than the last lot. I grieve for the country I was born in70 years ago, just 9 years after the last world war, because it's disappearing down the toilet as we speak.
@@John-G The disgusting thing is everybody got religion AFTER they burned Dresden. Perhaps you should read what Harris actually said and gauge the weight of these words: "I ... assume that the view under consideration is something like this: no doubt in the past we were justified in attacking German cities. But to do so was always repugnant and now that the Germans are beaten anyway we can properly abstain from proceeding with these attacks. This is a doctrine to which I could never subscribe. Attacks on cities like any other act of war are intolerable unless they are strategically justified. But they are strategically justified in so far as they tend to shorten the war and preserve the lives of Allied soldiers. To my mind we have absolutely no right to give them up unless it is certain that they will not have this effect. I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier."
I detest the overuse of the word underrated on RU-vid.... but in this case, I completely agree. John Thaw was brilliant and should have had a much bigger career. But then perhaps he didn't want it?
I think it was because he was usually cast in very limited parts in the earlier part of his career. It wasn't until he changed the Inspector Morse into a voulnerable person as well as a determined police officer that people really got their eyes opened to his enormous potential. I saw a movie with him playing some gruff old geezer suddenly stuck with a war child from London, and the way he was full of apprehension and then slowly turned to loving the kid like his own, and that abundantly happy smile when the kid calls him daddy in the end was a true masterpiece of acting that really shone a light on his abilities. As for Howard's reply. Yes. Thaw should have had a much larger career. He was right up there with people like Alistair Simms and Edward Fox and Derek Jacobi etc.
Aaaaand here we go again. Every time some musician, or actor, or film, or song features on RU-vid, someone will claim he/she/it is underrated. Every time.
Definitely got a raw deal, left to twist in the wind for Dresden. Especially since he wasn't the sole planner or even the first to suggest it. Its just that the rest were better at covering their asses, using the media first.
@@dokskwyr4353 That's one of the very reasons why my opinion of the British government and it's leaders of that era is lower than what lies at the bottom of a septic tank and stinks far worse!
Many thanks for posting this excellent film. My father was a navigator in a Manchester that was shot down during the 1000 bomber raid over Cologne. The plane was hit by flak and eventually crashed on the return home in occupied Belgium. My father bailed out and was captured and a POW at Stalug Luft III at Sagon, occupied Poland, till near the end of the war when he and other POWs walked westwards for months in Winter 1945 to eventually be liberated by the British army. At last bomber command have received recognition for their bravery though too late for my father's passing.
yorkshiremen. Yes! I lived through the Blitz, the so-called 'Baby Blitz' (the whole family nearly copped it in that one), and then the V weapons. I have been involved in many spats in comment columns in recent times, because I get sick and tired of all these know alls, who weren't there so haven't the slightest experience of war , telling US what it was like, what we did or didn't do wrong, or what we should or shouldn't have done. Sheer ignorance.
Yes it is very easy to criticize as you and the Americans seem to enjoy wars. Your entire existence has been predicated upon wars. Medieval knights in Scotland, France and Norway. On to colonization in Africa and Asian. The dastardly opium wars with China. The fiasco in the Falklands. The lost generation of young men at Ypres, Somme and Gallipoli. Oh yes, let’s not forget the poets who wrote so grandly about all your dead soldiers. But you can’t stop as the fighting goes on in places the British have no right being or supporting. Yes, war needs to be criticized! Often and loudly.
@@james-pierre7634you sound like an expert. Were you there ? I suggest if you don’t like what our forefathers did you could emigrate and spread your bile elsewhere.
This movie was absolutely fantastic, the use of actual war and other footage is so much appreciated…. To those who criticize the actions today have no idea what any of the people who had been brilliant in their duties, hoo-rah to these brave brothers in arms !! I do hope that the small group of elites who are planning to make WW3 happen are able to understand the consequences of the technologies that have been created and the consequences they will face as we know that war is purely a evil action
@themenace4017...That small group of elites that you mentioned may full well understand the devastation that a WWIII will unleash upon the civilized world, but it won't matter to them. They think that they will be unaffected by any destruction and will not suffer any personal harm.
I am afraid the Elites planning WW3 are your own Gouvernement and their puppet Masters.... ITS all about Money, influence and ressources... Greetings from a German self thinker whose Grand Mother told hin how she Had Seen the firestorm of Dresden 80 km away, whose aunt survived this RAID at the Dresden Mainstation as a Refugees from Breslau, but loosing her only son of 3 Month of age in the Same night. War ist hell!
Wonderful. My Uncle was the rear gunner in Lanc NG308, 189 Sqn, shot down on the night of 7th March 1945. All the crew got out, one was shot later 'whilst trying to escape,'. My uncle was 22 when all that happened, he died in 1999.
My grandpa was an Army veteran and I could not get him to talk about his experiences. Whenever there was a war movie on the TV he looked very uncomfortable and left the room. I never fully understood how much he was suffering until I heard him having frequent nightmares and occasionally screaming during his sleep.
@@strikerorwell9232Frequently former service personnel will avoid talking about their War Service with their own families and yet they will open up to another service person who is much younger. I had this happen to me on a number of occasions when I used to install wardrobes and home offices in people's homes around Melbourne back in the 90s and early 2000s. When they found out that I had served in the Australian Army Reserve in Signals, they were happy to let slip some details of just what they had done during the war. I managed to meet a man and a woman, at different times, both Signallers from Z Force, the Australian Coast Watchers and Special Commandos and this was 50 plus years after the end of the War. The woman was a Sgt in Signals based here in Melbourne and handling the Top Secret radio traffic from the Coast Watchers and the Commando units operating in South East Asia. The man was a Signaller (at least a Sgt) in PNG behind Japanese lines deep in the jungle on the Bismarck Sea side of PNG, but situated near their two main bases to be able to intercept their radio traffic and then rebroadcast it in code back to Melbourne for decoding, and interpretation. I can't prove it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they must have transmitted to each other at some point during the war and I got to meet them separately 50 and 54 plus years after the war. Now for the extra spice, have a think about how many wardrobe companies that there were in Melbourne at that time and then multiply in the number of installers, yet somehow I have managed to get to know two people who served in Z Force? That's when things start to blow your mind. Mark from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺 Former Australian Army Reservist '88 to mid 90s 1:24:52
@@strikerorwell9232Makes me think of the quote all gave some and some gave all, I pray your grandfather and those other brave souls are at peace and rest 🙏🏻
@@jamesfoote8916 Yes. Those old timers were no more keen to go and die than anyone alive today and the youth of today would soon be whipped into shape. Aside from anything else, it's hard to go against the tide and easier, even if terrified, to do what you are ordered to do. You tend not to hear too much about the draft dodgers and criminal opportunists that were around at the time. Those stiff upper pilot lips were just as prone to breaking down in their off time as anyone would be today. Guy Gibson's girlfriend remembers him breaking down and sobbing at random moments.
Vincde Kerrigan. Appreciate your reply.thanks,I am 94 now good memory good health mustn’t grumble.almost at the end of the road.The world I grew up in no longer exists.I dread the thought of what awaits this country.
I feel the same way. I'm glad my dad isn't around to see what is happening. He passed in 2009, 88 years old. Evil keeps getting more subtle and devious. The stupidity! Never before have people been confused about gender. Thanks for posting.
len. Yes, near the end of the road now. In spite of all the so-called progress of the modern time, we had the best of it. When we were young we had a properly functioning country - not any more. We have been ruled by infantile, useless, authority - political pygmies - for decades now, who have brought this once great country to it's knees. I really can't believe the stupidity of society today.
the public want to enjoy all the benefits of freedom. But many want to criticize what it takes to be free. You don’t win over pure evil without pulling out all the stops. Everyone love sausage but know one wants to watch it be made.
I was there in 1979. I saw a letter to a pilot downed in 1939: “To my dear brother, I will never forget you. Your loving sister”. I had to hide my tears.
So many young pilots lost their lives defending Britain in those terrifying years,, courage and strength of heart, knowing it could be their last A written letter to love ones in case of a non return. We owe so much to these amazing souls, many suffered survival from their burning planes, plastic surgery was still not advanced as today.l leaving them with horrific scars for life. We must never forget what was. May it never happen again.
Professor Doctor Archie McIndoe did some amazing plastic surgery though and pioneered some amazing advances, God bless him. The Guinea Pig club is a great book on his wartime work.
I saw this drama when it was first shown on the BBC, but listening to Sir Arthur Harris's 1977 interview as I just have, he talked about working together with the army, especially in the lead up to D-Day, and with the navy in so far as fighting the U-boat was best done by destroying lots of them where they were being produced or in harbour (as they were easier to find there) and he said that Albert Speer agreed on the impact on U-boat production from heavy bombing. So I don't think that he would would have said that Bomber Command would win the war alone, but it was a way to take the war to the Germans before D-Day happened for certain.
An excellent production - it summed it up very well. It was disgrace that it took until 2012 for there to be a Bomber Command War Memorial and the lack of a Campaign Medal was an even worse disgrace. The MoD finally offered a clasp to attach to the Europe Campaign Medal - even worse than nothing at all. For all 56,000 of my Father's comrades in Bomber Command who died in combat - rest in peace, there are still many who remember your sacrifice and how it shortened the war by diverting so much resource away from the Third Reich's front line fighting capacity.
There was never a campaign medal for ANY pilots - 3,000 Battle of Britain pilots got a clasp to the '39-'45 medal like anyone else, and they didn't complain. The problem was that Harris wanted a "Bomber Command" clasp for ALL Bomber Command, not just aircrew, including ground crew who never left the ground or the UK and that was never going to be acceptable. It's like the RAF demanding Iraq and Afghanistan medals for RAF drone pilots who never left their office in the UK (as they have done). Totally unacceptable. Edit: and the saddest part of all was that it DIDN'T "shorten the war" - it very nearly lost it, as Harris was nearly responsible for losing the war in the Atlantic until he was over-ruled and ordered to support Coastal Command. That doesn't detract from the crews' bravery and sacrifice in any way, but sadly it was in vain and achieved very little in terms of winning the war when balanced against the cost.
@@John-G All the more reason for there to be a Fighter Command medal as well! The Russians gave the Arctic Convoy seamen a medal years before the MoD finally coughed up the Artic Star. Your argument about it being Harris' fault for over-demanding for ground crew is spurious. If they had wanted to give aircrew a medal they would have simply refused the ground crew receiving one. The fact is after all the sacrifice they just threw Bomber Command under a bus because of PR over Dresden which was done to appease Stalin.. Your comment about very nearly losing war is a delusional Anglo-Centric view. Much as I despise Stalin and Communism it was the sacrifice of the Russian people and the Eastern front that won the War in Europe. The Western Front speeded things up, but the defeat of Germany happened on the Eastern Front. Before D-Day the only useful purpose Western resources could used for was to disrupt the Reich from the air and push as much lend-lease kit and raw materials into Russia. Harris was delusional to think he could win the war through bombing alone; but the impact of draining men, equipment and production away from the Eastern Front was a more important factor. Thousands of men, guns, planes and diverted production drawn back to the Reich plus the logistical dislocation caused by infrastructure damage helped reduce the combat capability in the East. I used to think the strategic bomber force would have been better applied in direct assault on German Army units, but actual examples show this is false. Flattening Caen just made it more defensible just as flattening Stalingrad had made it more defensible. When the strategic bombers were launched on Operational Totalise they failed - Tiger tanks may have been knocked onto their sides with very lucky blasts, but they were quickly righted - you have only to read Hans von Luck's account to see how pointless the bomber force's use was because they just didn't have the accuracy. The Germans just picked themselves up and their 88s and tanks just blasted away at the advancing 11th Armoured Division. At least you acknowledge the crews' bravery and sacrifice and at the end of the day that is what medals are for, regardless of the pointlessness of the effort, are they not? My Dad was fortunate - he was Polish and was decorated with Poland's highest honour the Virtute Militari, the Cross of Valour four times and the Polish Air Force medal (the campaign equivalent), he also won the America Soldier's Medal when he flew with the US Ninth Air Force in 44 for rescuing fellow crew members from their crashed B-26 with his one unwounded arm. He even received three Campaign Medals from the L'Armee de l'Air Francaise for the period from late 1939 to mid--1940 when the Polish Air Force was part of the French Air Force. So I am staggered at how lacking in generosity for the bravery and sacrifice of RAF air crew that the MoD was. Other countries showed a better appreciation for their heroes.
@@kernowpolski It's difficult to know if you're uninformed, deliberately ignorant, delusional, or winding me up. ALL aircrew who flew over France, Germany or the Atlantic WERE issued either the Atlantic Star with either the Air Crew Europe Clasp or the France and Germany Clasp, or the Air Crew Europe Star with either the France and Germany Clasp or the Atlantic Clasp, or the France and Germany Star with the Atlantic Clasp. The 'Aircrew Europe Star' is the ONLY time any British campaign medal has EVER been issued only to a specific branch of a service. THE ONLY TIME. EVER. Aircrew were also eligible for the '39-'45 Star (with a clasp for 'Battle of Britain' and, considerably later, a clasp fo Bomber Command') and automatically also got the "War Medal'. This continual banging on by you and others that they "should have got a medal" as if they were left out of medals is absurd. All Bomber Command didn't get until much later was a clasp to the '39-'45 Star like that awarded to Battle of Britain crew. Nothing else. THEY GOT THEIR MEDALS, IN 1945, LIKE ANYONE ELSE. Of course my comment about nearly losing the War in the Atlantic is "Anglo-Centric"! How could it be otherwise when victories and surrenders weren't made at one time??? Of course "Harris was delusional to think he could win the war through bombing alone". but what's also delusional is thinking that the resources spent on Bomber Command wouldn't have been better spent elsewhere, in a balance not only within the RAF commands but across the services. While Bomber Command had an effect, the return simply didn't justify the massive effort put in. NO, medals are NOT to "acknowledge ... bravery and sacrifice ... regardless of the pointlessness of the effort", at least in the British military, and they never have been. That's what 'awards and decorations' to individuals, such as the KCBC, KCVS, MiD, MC, CGC, VC and DSO are for. Campaign medals are to recognise participation in a specific campaign, with a clasp if appropriate; Commemorative medals recognize service during specific events, such as a jubilee or coronation; and Service medals such as the LS and GC recognise particular service. The vast majority of medals have nothing to do with "acknowledging bravery and sacrifice" at all - if you don't understand that, which is about as basic as it gets, read the medal criteria published regularly by Gov UK and in the London Gazette which spell it out. That isn't my 'opinion', it's the simple fact of whatv they're for. Different countries simply award medals in different ways so quantity and quality have a radically different meaning, and the way some countries dish out medals is laughable to British military eyes as it simply cheapens the process and makes the medals meaningless. It's not about showing "a better appreciation for heroes", just doing things differently. Without wishing to down play your father's medals in any way, Poland awarded "Poland's highest honour the Virtute Militari, the Cross of Valour" 50,000 times in WW2, including four times to your father, while the VC was awarded 181 times.
Was in London for the 1970 anniversary of the Battle of Britain, Boy scouts ' international jamboree! Pilots of the Battle talked to us about it! Amazing, and disquietingly haunting!
Sadly a country in decline. Riddled and corrupted by woke ideology and indiscriminate immigration. The rot started with the disastrous policies of Tony Blair and New Labour.
@@davidb2206 Because we lack conviction in all we believe..... it has been been beaten out of our souls by successive Governments pandering to those whose only aim is to see Great Britain fall into chaos: To see us humiliated for simply being damn good at what we once did. What we did in a world in which many others did exactly the same.... Compete. (And yes.... I cannot wait for the red arrows of dissent from those accusing GB of colonialism and abuse of foreign nations: Well, let me remind those small minded people: All nations did exactly the same...and many left a far worse scar on those countries...... far worse than Britain. Those countries are now subject to civil unrest and corruption at the highest levels. They have progressed minutely since their independence; They have been used and abused by their own .....far worse than any colonial power ever did. It's your backyard: Clean it up.)
I was born 13 Feb 45, date of the Dresden raid, always aware that I was given life, as so many died. Around year 2000, I had the chance to see Dresden,as Captain of a private jet. Mostly rebuilt,but racks of stones and pieces all numbered, still awaiting reassembly. Went to a museum dedicated to that night,could hear people talking angrily in German sbout we British, kept my mouth tight closed. And Iremember as a kid playing in old bomb shelters,and being scared of gas masks. Still got my old ration book
Isn't it strange that those angry Germans don't take into account the fact that Germany bombed so many cities during the Blitzkrieg, thereby opening the door to the use of such tactics by the allied forces?
Same thing with America bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki...There are museums there as well, some Japanese are still not happy with the U.S. But damn it..Start a war, but don't cry when you get your ass handed to ya, and I was born in Japan in 53.
@@james-pierre7634 Suggest you look up the facts about Luftwaffe raids on the UK. Over 80,000 civilians were killed in them. By the way, the RAF didn't drop a single bomb on Germany to start with but dropped leaflets advising the German people to stop the war before they started paying the ultimate price. Germans would do well to remember that they and the Russians started WW2 when they invaded Poland. They also should remember that they allowed Hitler to take power, allowed the Nazis to take control and sat back while up to 10 million people were murdered in camps in their name - Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled folk, political opponents, scientists, artists, actors et al. And if you are French, you would do well to remember the ultimate sacrifice made by so many British, Commonwealth and American troops on behalf of your country. Comparing what actually happened in Dresden to a work of Science fiction is hardly appropriate.
John Thaw’s finest hour! Very moving. Robert Hardy played Winston Churchill four times! A relative of mine who I never knew was a rear gunner in an Avro Lancaster. He didn’t make it through 1942.
When I bought my house here in Tasmania, their was an old bloke who lived over the road who had been a tail gunner in a Lanc, he was very quiet and reserved.
my dad was front line through out the war from africa to Germany never saw home for years after Germany surrendered he was on stand by for Japan then the bomb was dropped and he was stood down, did the bomb save him and ultimatly gave me life big questions on the morals of war in my mind
Interesting story. My Grandad was in the RN , he was a mechanic on an aircraft carrier. He ended up in the Pacific near the end of the war, the two atom bombs got him back home and demobbed. I wouldn’t be here now if the Americans hadn’t used those bombs, as approx nine months after he came home, my dad was born. 👍🇬🇧
Look on the bright side: there'll always be cranks who are more than happy to bring up their own fetish at every available opportunity - relevant or not. Ever considered emigration?
One further thing: the on-screen announcement before the final credits (1:25:41) states that Harris was not made a peer. That's true, but not exhaustive. He refused a peerage in 1946, in protest at Bomber Command's crews not receiving a special, separate campaign decoration; but at Churchill's insistence was made baronet in 1953, which is just shy of the peerage, but apparently was the most he would accept.
Thanks, didn't know that. The treatment of Bomber Command by the British Government after WW2 was shameful. ANZAC Day tomorrow, down here in NZ . We will remember and pay respect to the many Kiwi's who served and gave their lives in Bomber Command during WW2.
His 'protest' and the enduring problem wasn't that he wanted "Bomber Command crews" to have their service recognised with a clasp, like the 3,000 pilots who had a 'Battle of Britain' clasp to the '39-'45 star, but that he wanted to include ground crew as well, even though they never left the ground or the UK. That was never going to be acceptable, nor has it been since. FWIW the RAF are pushing similarly for medals now for 'drone' pilots who sit in a nice air conditioned office in UK, "piloting" drones in Iraq or Afghanistan or over Syria and the Gulf, to get the same medal as troops on the ground. (and 'no', I 'm not joking 😮)
grateful for that information. I see some similarities to the unnecessary criticism the Israel Air force is experiencing despite the country being at risk. I often wonder if the West under our present leaders have to fight again if there is the will & capability ?
You make war as you can, not as you would. The bomber offensive was the only way the western Allies could carry the war to continental Germany until June 1944
Unfortunately, many people make that same first statement. In their eyes, they are waging a legal war therefore killing defenseless civilians is a necessary evil. To other eyes, it's murder. It carries on today in many forms. While men (and it is normally men) continue to wage war for power or money, so will the horrors it brings.
@@guygardiner1920 Evidence? What you're saying is that the "western allies" did nothing to "carry the war to continental Germany" from 1940 until June 1944 apart from bomb it, as if "continental Germany" was somehow unaffected by everything going on around it, and as if prioritising resources to Bomber Command at everyone else's expense somehow made no difference as long as we just "let them know" we hadn't forgotten about them. It's simply an absurd construct to make.
@@John-G It's absolutely correct on every level Or do you not understand that the allies wanted to end the war as quickly as they could? They knew what was going on in those camps too but were all but powerless to stop it. Did the German people do a single thing to stop it? ~Answer - NO, they did not. The only way to get at Germany was to strike at their homeland - where they thought they were invincible. To strike at their arms production, their maritime production and every other area of production they could access. To do that, only bombing them was effective. You seem not to like the truth, but there it is. By the way, have you bothered to examine the fact that, at the same time, Germany were launching V1s and V2s indiscriminately at the British mainland, killing thousands of civilians? My mother's family narrowly missed being wiped out when one landed at the end of their street with no warning. It killed every member of six families who were probably sitting eating lunch together.
I was great friends with John Nettleton in 1951-4 at school. We were 7 or 8 at the time. He often talked proudly of his father, John Nettleton who was awarded the Victoria Cross for a raid by Lancaster Bombers in 1942. He played Wing Commander Harry Weldon in this Film.
Forgive me, Henry, but your friend John Nettleton wasn't the same chap as the actor; John Nettleton VC would've been 11 or 12 when the actor of the same name was born (he was living in South Africa at the time as well which'd have made being the actor's Dad a bit tricky). Your friend John was born in February 1944. The announcement of his birth appeared in the press alongside the announcement of his father's death. John Nettleton VC was lost during a raid on Turin on 12/13 July 1943 (a year and a fortnight after he'd married your chum's mother). He was recorded as Missing, but by February 1944 it was clear that he had died, hence the tragic juxtaposition of the birth and death announcements. Your friend was, it goes without saying, absolutely right to be incredibly proud of the father he never met. To tidy things up, John Nettleton (the actor) did his 2 years' National Service in the RAF in the late 1940s, before going to RADA and entering the acting profession.
I met Bomber Harris at his Home by the Thames. What a Man. A Gentleman . We had quite a chat at the time. That was in the 1970s. Something i never forget.
Thank you for the insight! We rarely see the human side of people that bore such great responsibility, and dedication in a time of potential national defeat or future criticism for making victorious decisions during war. I still have a hard time understanding why the bombing of London (for months), Liverpool, and other English cities never enter into the discussion... is it that Hitler, given the resources, wouldn't have continued his assault on English cities? What about the English dead, injured, dislocated to the countryside, children psychologically scared for generations, etc.
I remember some of the brave men who were my teachers at high school in Bundaberg Queensland, and who served in bombers over Germany. Some lost their lives while returning over Denmark and are fondly remembered by the Danes.
“Come with me to Berlin, by night.” Really? The Americans weren’t capable of operating by night. No navigational equipment, no operational procedures, no experience, no nothing. To get the USAAF to operate in the dark of night would take more than a year and then only if they adopted RAF navigating equipment, bomb sights (forget about the Norden; it was no better than the RAF’s bomb sight and it wouldn’t work at night anyway), navigators and bomb aimers. Not to mention that with the paltry bomb load a B-17 could carry, you’d have to switch them over to Lancasters first. Not an option.
The wartime footage shows JO-P preparing to take off for the Dresden raid. My good friend flew that raid and was in the rear turret of JO-X 463 RAAF “Press on Regardless”.
I was in hospital recently, and the chap in the bed next to me was LOLUIS P WOODRIDGE DFC, a rear gunner in WWII, He had written a very interesting book DAY SQUIRE NIGHT FLIER He talked a lot but not about his DFC and war career but disgusted at how after the war he joined FIFE POLICE and had a big problem with his and their religion denying him promotion, I spoke to him everyday and had the same anti police diatribe, I told him to forget FIFE POLICE and be proud of his DFC and WWII experience
He was acting on the best information on what Britain could do to put the most pressure on Hitler's war effort was to target the houses of German workers in night raids. They were quite prepared to kill or injure those who did not get to shelters but they did not expect that would be enough to collapse war production. They calculated that they could make a significant percentage of German workers homeless with would reduce their productivity and morale and put a major strain on government resources to take care of them.
A real leader that had the British people, soldiers foremost in his goals. Tens of thousands were saved both in Britain and all of Europe. Thank God for these leaders. A Veteran.
Coastal Command had a very different view of how many lives he saved - or, in their view, cost, as do many who could have done with RAF support in North Africa and across Asia.
Think how forward thinking it would have been for British leaders to not enter the war on the continent. Germany dominates Europe today anyway. Maybe GB could have held on to more of its empire.
Thanks Will, for the service that you and your fellows gave to save Great Britain from the tyranny of the Third Reich. Born just after the WWII, I owe my very existance to you. As tyranny rises again We, The People will once again strike back to defeat those that seek to destroy us. Good, strong, honorable Leaders in the Human race are extremely rare.
@@thomaswayneward "Germany dominates Europe today anyway" That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen written in a RU-vid comment and that says quite a bit, I really don't think you get how the Germany of the 30's and 40's would be dominating Europe as compared to the way today's Germany is doing it. Even claiming that they "dominate" Europe in this day and age is a pretty far stretch in the first place. I can't believe that anyone would believe that if Der Fuhrer was allowed to have Europe that things the past 80+ years would have been just peachy for England, Stalin thought that same exact thing, "Oh whatever, just let the little crackpot have what we don't really want anyway, just smile and wave and he'll go away", look how that worked out for him. And here's a newsflash for you, there's a whole new modern day Fuhrer that's on the march in Europe right now, maybe get with the times and quit worrying about the last one that got barbecued in a parking lot in Berlin 79 years ago and start concentrating on the one that's doing the same thing in the here and now, because just like the last Fuhrer none of them are ever happy with what they already have, if they're not taking what belongs to others they're just not happy, it's in their nature.
Speaking German and most likely not have all the garbage we have now. Germans are responsible for everything we have now. We stole all their technology. I am not stating I agree with anything Hitler did with the Jews. But even today Germans are the smartest most efficient culture.
My mother, babe in arms, in South London, turned a corner and found her house gone. She had to live with relatives and they weren't very welcoming. She didn't see her husband for three years. Try and get inside the head of that young woman. See if you have any sympathy for Germany.
It was the UK and France that declared war for the sake of Poland, that heartland of the British Empire. Two weeks later they saw the USSR invade and played dumb.
My Grandfather was General Eisenhower's transportation officer during WWII. I loved hearing his stories. That drove me to learn as much as I could about the so called war to end all wars.
@@chuckgilbert2035 Sorry, I wasn't trying to be one-up, but if you re-read your original comment I think it'd be fair to say that it sounds very much as if you're referring to WW2 as "the war to end all wars", not WW1.
@@MrDonJBerg My Grandfather was badly burn by mustard gas in WWI. They did not take many pictures with him in them. BTW the General had him check out the M1 before it was issued. The third one in production was presented to him with serial # 3 on it.
Excellent discussion. Is there a moral way to do the immoral ? My father was bomb aimer in an RCAF Halifax. He didn't talk much about it. Brave to face death, and brave to continue with life after.
