It's not a huge update it's minor. DJI caught Bosch completely pants down. They thought they had the best motor and would just iterate it but DJI came out with something many steps better. Sound, weight neither is a real difference. New sensors who cares the old one already had a great pedaling feel.
Battery upgrade is a good plus. Bosch systems are quite good but battery were really heavy (and $$$) for the capacity. I guess the $$$ part won't improve.
Nice updates, but it looks more like a “facelift” rather than a new gen. A new gen should also introduce a standard mounting interface for all ebikes, and they’re so close to a solution with their two bolts interface
The term 'facelift' normally refers to products that have undergone cosmetic changes. This motor has been completely redesigned both aesthetically and mechanically so I thinks fair to label is anew generation of the motor 👍
People like loud hubs and hate loud motors, both are the loudest while descending. But one is good for showing off so it's fine and the other doesn't give you any bragg-bonus so it's not wanted. I ride alone and I don't like both.
My Gen 4 certainly doesn't sound like that rattle i don't have any noise that way just the nice low motor whine when going but its near new 25mile on the 2024 Cube stereo action team that would worry me if i started to hear a rattle like that on my gen 4
It's just a matter of time I'm afraid. I have a 2023 Cube with the Gen 4 motor and 1400 miles on it. It will start to rattle, particularly on washboard like terrain when you're riding over tractor tracks. I'm interested to see if it will be any better after I get it service.
If Bosch did a backwards compatible upgrade motor, no bike manufacturer would spec them in the future… that’s capitalism baby! I’ve put 1300+miles in under a year in uk weather and my gen4 has been stellar. No regrets-or desire to buy new…yet😅
I would have been happy if they moved to a new gen battery like LiFePo4, which is a bit bulkier, but less weight and longer life, also safer to store and transport.
Why miss a market so big for people that already have the Gen 4, if you would make it fit with the Gen 4 mount you would have so many people that are willing to upgrade the motor just for the rattle...
I love the technology upgrades, and I have a bike with the Gen 4 CX. But it doesn’t address the issue of the derailer and the maintenance needs that go along with it. The derailer needs to be eliminated for low/no maintenance gear boxes. Until then, I’m not upgrading. Waiting for the Pinion or competitors to bring the cost down.
So many questions.. 1. Is the engine waterproof now? Not submersible, but can it at least withstand being rinsed with water? 2. Spare parts? Can I get hold of the simplest spare parts such as bearings, gears, axles etc. or does the whole motor still have to be replaced for simpler faults? It is madness from a sustainability perspective that you have to discard a broken engine with simpler faults! 3. Can it share power information with ANT or BT? It's crazy that I have to buy a power meter for a bike that has it in the motor because Bosch refuses to share the information with the above protocols. 4. Can GEN5, like Shimano, be connected to external units, e.g. Garmin to share information? 5. Can devices such as Varia connect to the GEN5 system so I don't have to have an extra bike computer to get the information from the radar? I hope it has improved in at least ONE area..
I just build a 1128Wh battery with 56x 21700 samsung 50g cells (14s4p) and a jk bms in a custom 3d printed enclosure for around 220 euro. Real power 1000Wh because of lower charging/discharge 4.15/3v (optimized for reliability) and energy loss from higher discharge current. I'm sure bosch would charge an arm and lag for that.
Why would you use the 50G cells as opposed to the 50E cells. The 50E cells connected group to group will easily let you push 40a thru them no sweat, why use the higher discharge cells?
The 50E cells are rated for 500 cycles (capacity loss etc.) the 50GB cells for 1000 cycles at 4.15/3 volt. The 50G cells (also 1000 cycles) but with 4.2/2.5v. So my thinking was using the 50G cells with 4.15/3v they become more reliable than the GB at the same voltage usage. The 50E also become very hot, so I don't think they can handle large current enough. The 50G handle 10A continuous and 15A piek, 4parallel means 40A and 60A. At 58V is 2300Watts continuous and 3480W piek. That's more than enough for my usage. (other brands like Molicel where to expensive)
@@StarsAtNight1 Now I see your using the 2300w motor, I’m guessing the Bafang ultra so absolutely you need a higher discharge cell to not stress them out. Built a 52v 34.5ahr battery for a buddy a few years ago but I used some18650 cells, Sanyo I think but can’t remember the specific one. I’m sure they were 15-20 a discharge rated and with that many groupings (10x14) it was easy to have enough jumpers between groups to safely carry the load. Funny I’m just getting ready to ride with him this morning and he doesn’t even use the higher wattage levels on his bike. 99% of the time he rides in the lower power levels.
@@MGSDiego It will be my first e-bike build journey! I waiting for the Tongsheng TSDZ8 motor to arrive, that has a peak at 1300W (though I'm not planning to push it to the max). Each battery cell will see around 6 Amps peak. Ideally, Tongsheng would offer lower wattage firmware, which I'd gladly install for a gentler approach. Initially considering the TSDZ2B, its internal components seemed less robust (smaller gears worried me), so hoping the TSDZ8 is more reliable. For the battery a 13S5P configuration would have be better, but it needing 9 extra cells compared to a 14S4P setup. Plus the spare cells to remove outliers for cell matching. That was out of my budget. So I ending up with a 17Ah (on paper a 20Ah) battery, I'm hoping for a 75km range with moderate assistance. Fingers crossed!
It's amazing ,,,, well not , how many commenters here and elsewhere rave about the DJI as if they actually own the bike and have been riding it for a few years . those susceptible to written and video hype need to be reminded of the extreme distinction between information and direct experience . The dji has not been long term real world tested so no matter how good the specs look we must wait to see what pans out . Bosch has already proven itself in the reliability department .
Just riding the bike down the hill alone with the derailleur making noise the shocks making their noise the brakes making their noise and now you're complaining about a gear clinking noise in the transmission
@@Barkything and I'm saying they're not quiet from the brakes squealing to the tire chatter shocks making noise they're not quiet even eliminating the noise from the gearbox
@@devinpena10 brake noises or tire chatter cannot be compared to rattling parts on your bike. I eliminate all cables rattling, my shock and fork do not make sounds, I ride a silence rear hub. I only hear ride sounds which is not noise.
The new CX is overall better than DJI, keep in mind the DJI starts at 7000€ and has zero Dealers/longevity data. People love complaining, Bosch managed to improve an already pretty good motor and making it even better and enjoyable. Also 85nm is more than enough for 99% of people. Also you can get Bosch cx at 3000€ vs DJI starting 7000€
Exactly, I was thinking whoa whoa, did you just rush the bit where you said one of the reasons for the noise reduction was the adoption of plastic gear wheels?
Funny to hear him talk about "the perfect balance" of attributes for the rider experience, but didn't do anything about motor whine. Still too loud. Dji is crushing everyone and you can only rest on your laurals for so long. Innovate or die. I don't care which.
You can believe all you want they act like they are upgrading batteries and making them better every couple weeks. It’s just not true just because they put a whole new cover around. It doesn’t mean it’s any better put that thing on a machine to prove its performance.
It's an absolute shame that they didn't use these 21700 cells already years ago. BUT did you see the price for the new battery? Ha ha ha.. 1259 euros on one german shop (elektrofahrrad24), what the hell? And 949 for the 600wh battery..?! Hopefully it's a typo
People love complaining, Bosch managed to improve an already pretty good motor and making it even better and enjoyable. Also 85nm is more than enough for 99% of people. Also you can get Bosch cx at 3000€ vs DJI starting 7000€
So, upgrades are:- fixing arrangements - unnecessary. Noise - unnecessary (plus swapping metal for plastic on a drive train is hardly a step forward). ABS - totally unnecessary to 99.9% of riders. The one thing Bosch should have concentrated on - bearings and sealing, they chose to ignore. Now that’s moving forward!
Think I’m echoing what we all want - we want actually waterproof motors and ones that have all common parts readily available so can be repaired / refurbished cheaply. Literally no one is doing that from what I can tell and the aftermarket is having to try and retrofit these motors.
There are third party service agents who will (for a orice) upgrade the waterproofing of current Bosch motors with better gaskets, seals and bearings. Seen it done on EMBN, so no need to wait for Bosch to sort it out!
I think you underestimate how much work is involved in designing a new engine. It is completely new and has many improvements to details. But of course, it's more of an evolution than a revolution. I'll make any bet that it has been tested for quite a long time and is once again very reliable. That is also a quality in itself.
But the form factor of the new motor is also different, so it probably wouldn't be a good fit anyway. And of course Bosch is also thinking about the manufacturers who want to sell new bikes. One hand washes the other, as we say here.
I think the Bosch guy needs to requalify his #’s on the battery’s he is describing. Older 18650 cell battery rated at 750w equals (6) groups rated at 3.45ah actually for a total rating of 21ahr only gives you 745w, stay with me here. “New” 21700 cell battery rated at 800w is actually (4) groups rated at 5ah for a total rating of 20ahr and only gives you 720w. Newer battery is indeed lighter by 85gr so that is true, but it will produce lees power overall. What a lot of companies are doing is refining the motor software to be more efficient thus using less wattage and assist and allowing riders to get more range and tricking you to seem like a larger capacity battery. Again just my opinion.
Bosch design is the most highly rated systems for reliability and safety. If you want to talk specs only then they won't win but specs are not everything as discussed here. From the owner of ebike motor repair centre his choice of motors is Bosch.
Changing bolt pattern. Bike industry is going down the drain. Imagine how many frames need updates now. (thinking norco new range of hp e bikes). Companies are going to have to quickly dump all current stock and redesign. More runout bikes hitting the market where retailers will make little to no profit. On another note. I would think you would need to triangulate the motor fixings points. 🤷♂️
So they added a bunch of new sensors... I take it that the improved walk assist and hill climb assist (which I didn't see mentioned in the video but I may have missed it) won't be a simple firmware upgrade on Gen4, since it requires the new accel/gyro sensors? And about the battery, they could have made it backwards compatible like could have integrated their app with other devices like Garmins... but they don't want to. Bosch is the Apple of eBikes and they want us to spend as much as possible on *their* products... (disclaimer: I own a Gen4 Mondraker and love it)
He makes a good point about power consistency. The DJI may be able to put out 800/1000 watts but it is still limited by the laws in that it needs to have an average power output of 250 watts so if it is cranking out 800 watts often then at some point it will have to drop down to like 100 watts to even it out. I wonder how that feels in practice. I like my Bosch Gen 4 and I have never wished it had more power. Usually I use Tour+ and sometimes I even de-tune it so it gives me even less assistance. This makes me work harder so I get a better workout but while still going a lot faster than a regular bike.
Gen 4 was powerful enough but just remember the Gen 4 started with 75nm and that was increased to 85nm shortly after. Nothing to say this isn’t the same and could see an increase with an update in the near future. Still top 3 systems you can buy.
Does it use a hall-effect harmonic speed sensor to measure wheel speed or is it still using that old-school single magnet so it can only measure full rotations of the wheel instead of precise movement of the wheel?
i think they made a mistake on the power. buyer sees 600w here and 1000w dji, they are gonna have a tough time justifying the 600w one. gonna lose a lot sales going this route
No backwards compatibility, piss poor, may well have upgraded if i had an issue with gen 4. But dji is light years ahead. Be good if someone did a mount for dji to Bosch gen 4 ???
If it cant be de-restricted without voiding warranty, then I'm not interested. We need more frame manufacturers adopting platforms like Polini and Bafang in the market.
seems to be these motor companies want to keep their new motor mounting systems different then the older ones so you cannot upgrade the old motor with the new, more proprietary garbage fleecing buyers out of thousands again
youtubers "SILENT !!!" actual person who was testing it last week "makes slightly less noise" to be faire gen4 isn't loud I found it's nothing like older gens which screamed "I'm eleeeccctrrriiiiccc"
the adaptative walk assist speed is great because I found it was too much when I tried to ride up 50% my ground reading skills failed chose the wrong way had to push up a nasty climb it assist was going too fast for me, the "hill hold" of bosch walk assist is incredibly useful it can be used to lift the wheel up and wheelie-roll narrow ruts on the rear wheel alone
@@DoubbleDdragon Have you ridden either of them? Based on specs online the DJI crushes the ZF. Add to that the reviews across the internet and I doubt anyone agrees that ZF is even competitive with the DJI?? ZF makes great (expensive) gearboxes and diffs, but they don’t have DJI experience with electric motors, software interfaces for power and battery management. Do you base your judgement on the status of BMW performance? Thats a stretch…
Would be really cool if Bosch would offer it as a drop-in upgrade to any bike with a Perf. Line CX motor in it. Same with the battery, I dont want to buy an entierly new bike just to upgrade the motor of it.
it's meant to be an actual display without being too large for people who do enduro or dh and until now only had leds around switches as info, it's not meant to replace a bigger screen like the Kiox but the no-screen situation many bikes had
Funny enough, my replacement bosch motor in my 2021 cube which I got in 2023 doesn't rattle & it's very quiet & also my 2023 Canyon CF8 doesn't rattle, well not that I notice 🤷🏾♂️
Sounds like they are trying to solve a problem with the Gen4 which should have been engineered out of the Gen4 before it hit the market. Bosch were obviously aware of the rattle in the Gen4 from day 1. Now I wonder - if they have added some more plastic cogs - whether the Gen5 is quieter when new but will the rattle return after a few months of use? Time will tell.
Getting out of mountain biking totally. Cost of bikes is getting too high and e bikes lose so much value after 1 year. I have an Orbea Rise 2 years old and worth less than half it's original price. I can't afford to keep that up. The technology may be getting 'better', but at cost to riders.
The prices crash when new generations are introduced. You can buy many ebikes new for 50% off right now, so either buy the new gen as soon as they come out or buy the previous gen and save money.
I'm looking at the depreciation as a plus. The 24 Jam2 is now under £3k for the 6.7 and now I know there's no massive advantage on the new motor I think I'm going to get one. I don't change bike every 2 years though, this would be to replace my 6 year old Haibike. If I found the prices were getting too expensive I'd just keep whatever bike I had forever rather than give it up.
Boss: we need urgently to make a new hub motor to rival our competitors, but more cheaper and with more profit. Ingeneer:well we can make it cheaper by using more plastics in it but there are reliability issues and others restrictions.. Boss: don't bother, just make it sound quieter and do some weight reduction on it and marketing team will do the rest. Ingeneer: facepalm
I’m pretty happy with the motor that came with my 2022 Trek Rail. It already runs pretty silent (thanks to my pro bike mechanic) and it’s mega reliable and trail proven. All I can see is the punter being asked to shell out even more money for questionable increase in overall performance. The worse thing is the issue of backward compatibility. Bosch already made it impossible for owners of non smart bikes to upgrade either the motor or battery to the new smart system. With the introduction of this “new” 2025 motor and battery, it’s another rinse and repeat and it just sucks! Hopefully new third party players will come on the scene to help us legacy owners keep our bikes up to date, especially with the coming of lighter higher desnsity battery cells. I simply cannot afford to play the “catch up” game with Bosch or anybody else for that matter but if I were in the market for a new bike, I’d be either looking at the new offering from DJI or wait for the upcoming and wider industry adoption of integrated motor gearbox unit coupled together with a carbon belt drive. That’s the real future or e-mtbs.
I’m sorry but the Bosch gen 4 had zero motor rattle and noise I’m not sure why this is a big deal in the video when this is not a big deal at all Bosch gen 4 are amazing
Seems like a well done version of the last generation of e-bike motors. Now let’s get zf and Bosch to ditch the handlebar screens. Makes all e-bikes look cheap and thrown together…..
The problem with the motor noise isn't that rattle but the whine of the actual motor itself. EV's have this issue too and you can't eliminate it apparently, just shift the frequencies down which Bosch did from Gen 2 to Gen 3. But it's annoying still.
how come every new generation motor of most motor brands not only never get to a standard in motor and battery mounts but worse, create new mounts making all previous bike frames not upgradable? I really don't like when brands limit consumer choices and push for more bike buys. It's not realistic to continue to push for selling new full ebike builds!!!!
No news on improved reliability, none of the improvements are as important to me as reliability. I only got just over 1000miles on my first Gen 4 motor and my bike is in again with speed sensor error codes. I ride in all conditions all year round (various uk). Good that they’re making improvements though
EMBN just put their video out no change in the system just design of motor smaller and slightly quieter and the Purion 400 is a must for all gen 4s when that comes out
Natural is a codeword for slow power delivery. The gen4 instant power was perfect. That is what you need if you want to ride techy terrain or fast through pedal rock gardens. So Bosch has had the winning formula for the last 3 years and now they are making it worse... If the gen5 indeed is just slower to deliver power, "natural", then the gen4 motor is better... You can control the bike with brakes. But you can't do anything about slow power delivery.
