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Break Points - Balancing the Math with the User Experience - Extra Credits 

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Why does a small, incremental increase in a stat sometimes feel like an overpowered boost? How can we use break points to improve the player's experience?
Guest art by Allison Utterback! / ingrid_archer (No, not THAT Allison, but a very awesome Allison nonethless.)
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Комментарии : 768   
@extrahistory
@extrahistory 6 лет назад
Sometimes you've got perfectly calculated systems running in your game, but actually playing the game feels... off. Let's learn how to design purposeful break points, and avoid unintentional loopholes!
@marcooosbibendorsht1334
@marcooosbibendorsht1334 6 лет назад
Ayy
@spessspess4616
@spessspess4616 6 лет назад
lmao
@tudeslildude
@tudeslildude 6 лет назад
Shouldn't all those equations being made to run your game under the hood, be made WITH user experience in mind? I think if your adding a layer of systems/stats to your game, or expanding an existing one, it should be done so for the sake of the user experience. What other reason would there even be to add depth if not to improve user experience?
@RobinSmuda
@RobinSmuda 6 лет назад
You could have brought up Earthbound (Mother 2) and the way it automatically fights enemies so low you will (most likely) one shot and then gives you minimal exp and rewards.
@callowguru2611
@callowguru2611 6 лет назад
Extra Credits Earthbound had an exp to level up curve that I'm sure seemed really janky on paper but was amazing in actual execution.
@michaelolson7626
@michaelolson7626 6 лет назад
"They're not necessarily bugs, they might even be legitimate game features." A story as old as time itself.
@warriorfire8103
@warriorfire8103 6 лет назад
Testing yourself against a skyrim giant "weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"
@ZombieBarioth
@ZombieBarioth 6 лет назад
Yep, I too like it when broken mechanics and system limitations are touted as "difficulty".:P
@PikaLink91
@PikaLink91 6 лет назад
And then a picture of a fucking spider....except that spiders aren't bugs, so that was just a dick move...
@yonatanbeer3475
@yonatanbeer3475 4 года назад
@@PikaLink91 spiders are bugs, they're just not insects.
@SadoMessiahLP
@SadoMessiahLP 4 года назад
@@yonatanbeer3475 No, spiders are arachnids....
@nathandestler1309
@nathandestler1309 6 лет назад
A lot of this comes from doing the *wrong* math. The most obvious example comes from calculating damage per second, rather than time to kill. You actually see this a lot on things that reduce incoming damage. Let's say you have a skill that has 10 ranks, and each rank reduces the damage you take by 1 each time you get hit. There's a general intuition that, since each rank decreases damage by the same amount, each rank must be equally good. Now, imagine that enemies hit for 10 damage. If you have 100 hp, the 1st rank you take in this skill increases the number of hits it takes to kill you from 10 to 12. Fair enough. The 9th rank you take increases the number of hits from 50 to 100. The 10th rank increases the number from 100 to infinity/undefined (you're invulnerable). The damage you take is decreasing linearly, but doing the math that actually matters, we can see that the time to kill is increasing at a staggering rate. There's an obvious breakpoint at rank 10, but we can find that, and the other unintended trends, if we do the right math.
@mikked01
@mikked01 6 лет назад
I like how Earthbound handled break points; when you were significantly stronger than the monsters, they A) ran away from you on the world map, rather than towards you and B) if you did engage them you either got a guaranteed "green," engagement OR instantly killed them without transferring to the battle screen at all.
@ariwl1
@ariwl1 6 лет назад
Still one of my favorite JRPG mechanics.
@Nixitur
@Nixitur 6 лет назад
I'm pretty sure the running away from you has nothing to do with power, but with whether you've defeated the boss of that area. The latter is pretty cool, though, and very simple math, too, I think. I believe that happens when the game calculates that you would just win without getting harmed if you simply mashed attack. Of course, that only really works in a few games.
@_SMAAAASH_
@_SMAAAASH_ 6 лет назад
Nixitur It was both power lvl and/or defeating the boss that decided whether enemies ran from you. The system for instant wins was a little more complicated then an autofight sim, but functioned basically like that.
@Nintendotron64
@Nintendotron64 6 лет назад
Nixitur It's both. Enemies will run away after you kill the boss to make it easier to escape the dungeon. In the overworld, it's dependent on level. It makes a lot of sense mechanically, and just plain feels good to see yourself so strong that enemies literally flee in terror.
@KhalilSiddeeq
@KhalilSiddeeq 6 лет назад
Persona 5 actually does that too. Think they were inspired by Earthbound?
@rosalindchapman9035
@rosalindchapman9035 6 лет назад
Skyrim is so awful for this. No damage is randomized so most damage upgrades are useless against most foes while some are substantial (3 hits to 2 hits, 2 hits to 1 hit). Also the armour system is garbage with each point being more valuable than the last because its flat %, and then everyone caps it out eventually so it stops mattering at all by mid game and everything is harmless until you fight monsters who can hurt you despite only doing 20% damage or whatever it is. One thing that helps a ton with breakpoints is small randomization consider a game where you always do the same damage, when fighting a 10 hp foe, the only numbers that matter are 1, 2, 4, 5 and 10. But if attacks do X plus or minus 1 damage than the numbers that matter are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11. Another way to prevent breakpoints is with easier methods of doing a lesser result. XCOM uses this to great effect as a weapon upgrade of 4 damage to 6 damage might not change the number of shots to kill an 8 hp creature, but the 6 damage shot will leave it in range to be killed by a frag grenade (3 damage) that is a guaranteed hit. Xcom also uses +/- 1 damage and crits to eliminate breakpoints.
@theDevintage
@theDevintage 6 лет назад
To be honest, I have the opposite take on this. Skyrim uses leveled enemies, which means that they're getting stronger as you do too (just slightly slower). This makes it feel like you're not improving at all. I agree that they should use your example of randomisation, but I think that they should tone down on the leveled enemies to have improvement that matters.
@rosalindchapman9035
@rosalindchapman9035 6 лет назад
Definitely, (I highly suggest mods that remove the level scaling and add damage randomization btw). My main problem with skyrim progression is it basically doesn't exist until you reach a drastic point that completely trivializes everything. Also because the damage increasing perks are so substantial, as you level up you actually get a shrinking toolest to deal with encounters. At level 1, archery, all types of magic, one handed and two handed weapons are all viable paths. At higher levels your chosen skills have kept pace but everything else is now entirely useless. This is a worse problem in fallout 4 imo, which has really substantial damage scaling by perks on guns and actively punishes you for wanting a variety of weapons for a variety of situations.
@theDevintage
@theDevintage 6 лет назад
I couldn't agree more. When I tried getting every skill to 100 (and I did, but I regret it), it was quite difficult leveling combat skills I didn't start with. Right now I'm trying a playthrough with such mods, definitely an improvement, albeit a lot more challenging.
@Sophistry0001
@Sophistry0001 6 лет назад
Skyrim also has a problem with how enemies scale up, at least with destruction magic, you become impotent in the late game. Enemies scale up farther than your spells do once you hit that damage cap. If that was intentional to force you into using other tricks like alteration or illusion then maybe it gets a pass, but it doesn't feel intentional.
@insaincaldo
@insaincaldo 6 лет назад
You can screw yourself over in Skyrim though if you do something funny with your build and hit a scaling level. And equipment can make a difference, though if you are just an amazing smith and enchanter, you can pretty much make equipment to play as any build and just change on the fly, thus still breaking everything. it is however also possible to go too fare into randomised damage. Xcom is great, but does anyone play with damage roulette?
@timothymclean
@timothymclean 6 лет назад
This Allison Utterback is a Hot Fuzz fan? I can't tell.
@theoshodi
@theoshodi 6 лет назад
cornetto for everybody!
@01ZombieMoses10
@01ZombieMoses10 6 лет назад
Wot's wrong Danny? Never taken a shortcut before?
@pwilla
@pwilla 6 лет назад
Who ISN'T a Hot Fuzz fan?
@Elesario
@Elesario 6 лет назад
Plus Hot Fuzz references Break Point.
@Ghiaman1334
@Ghiaman1334 6 лет назад
Jason Hardman Ah! That's the elusive missing link making the whole thing Hot Fuzz motif seem a little jarring to me. I get it now. Thanks!
@Lugmillord
@Lugmillord 6 лет назад
Games: Where 10% of health are 50% of health.
@t3hmaniac
@t3hmaniac 6 лет назад
Or to put it another way: The only hit point that matters is the last one.
@dddmemaybe
@dddmemaybe 6 лет назад
"ABC Barbarian has a quadratically increased defense the lower hp he has?" No more linear warriors, quadratic wizards. Quadratics for everyone!
@Lugmillord
@Lugmillord 6 лет назад
When I look at the Flowey fight in Undertale, it feals like the defense increases exponentially. You lose half of the bar after like two hits but can take over9000 until you die.
@insaincaldo
@insaincaldo 6 лет назад
Magic pixl, not that your set survivability has much to do with the video topic.
@themustachioedfish5988
@themustachioedfish5988 6 лет назад
Actually yeah I think that was the case. Also you can only die to Photoshop Flowey's attacks, not the souls if memory serves.
@ThePortableTornado
@ThePortableTornado 6 лет назад
It took me an embarrassing amount of time to realize that half of the images in here were Point Break references...
@KubkaKawyprzyGrze
@KubkaKawyprzyGrze 6 лет назад
I didn't see Point Break so thx for telling me :D
@CBoy92
@CBoy92 6 лет назад
Either Point Break references OR Hot Fuzz references WHICH itself referenced Point Break. One deep rabbit hole man...
@dbrokensoul
@dbrokensoul 6 лет назад
No! Why would I fired my gun in the air and yelled "ahhh"?
@el-zee9088
@el-zee9088 6 лет назад
Gandhi in civ1, when your break point is so epic that it makes Gandhi goes into a nuclear frenzy
@talongreenlee7704
@talongreenlee7704 4 года назад
El- Zee that’s more of an integer limit overflow bug than a break point
@PedroCosta-po5nu
@PedroCosta-po5nu 4 года назад
N.U.K.E.= Nuclear. Uranium. in Kansas. Energy.
@AegixDrakan
@AegixDrakan 6 лет назад
So many hot fuzz references, oh my god. XD And that "feels" face at the end was just perfect. ...Anyway, I get the feeling that Warframe takes Break Points and runs the whole thing into the endzone. I'm like "Man, this weapon sucks, I'm barely killing enemies with it" and then tweaking a few Mods on it makes it suddenly one-shot just about everything. I'm at the point in the game now where I need to actively look for break points because the game is now suddenly REALLY freakin' challenging and if I'm not trying to break the game, I'm not winning anymore. XD
@mhospada
@mhospada 6 лет назад
Aegix Drakan just came down to say exactly this. For gamers who love the game of searching through systems for the next game breaking combo, warframe is where it’s at. Really it’s their entire gameplay loop imo.... and it’s a lot of fun to finally find that crucial keystone piece and have a challenge that’s been grinding you down just evaporate under the weight of some new stat combo.
@JM-nothing-more
@JM-nothing-more 6 лет назад
this is true until you realize that there's like 3 useable endgame builds for guns and all you need to do is figure out which one fits on your current gun based on it's base stats, then forma-grind the thing until you can fit them on there
@AnemoneMeer
@AnemoneMeer 6 лет назад
That's only true for some weapons and concepts. Outside of the usual crit/status calculations, there's also armor stripper builds, H-cal ranks, and weapon specific weapon alterations. For example, most weapons cannot reliably sustain a Heavy Caliber of 8 or more, while the Lenz can support it at 10 and the Soma cannot run it at all. Likewise, Rakta Cernos cannot use fire rate mods, while Dread and Lenz absolutely need them. Penta cannot use multishot mods, while the Tonkor loves multishot. The Stug cannot use punchthrough. So on and so forth. Yes, there are initial baselines to how you optimize your damage, but many weapons require you tailor the baselines to the specific weapon.
@AegixDrakan
@AegixDrakan 6 лет назад
+AnemoneMeer So Dread needs Fire Rate, noted. I'm levelling that thing as soon as my Crit Soma is mastered.
@AnemoneMeer
@AnemoneMeer 6 лет назад
Most bows use fire rate, due to the fact they have painfully slow inherent firing speeds due to charge time, and inherent punchthrough from projectile mechanics. The Cernos line is the exception, with a baseline 0.25s charge time, attempting to stack firing rate just makes it difficult to acquire ideal firing lines/heads without wasting time at full charge.
@KaiserAfini
@KaiserAfini 6 лет назад
Yep, I get a 1% extra damage passive in many games due to equipment, skills, whatever. I never feel a difference and even forget they exist. So I dread skill trees or equipment that have tons of those small buffs, because I know it will take so much time until it becomes relevant, basically at endgame or post game.
@LORDOFDORKNESS42
@LORDOFDORKNESS42 6 лет назад
I'd be really curious to hear from a dev on that type of game what they were thinking, actually. Sure, my fire-ball is now 5% stronger, and has plus 1% in radius. Whoop. The excitement is CLEARLY off the charts, right? Heck, you want the near same system be as near exciting as plausible? Have a 25% and 5% increase for five points. Bam, done, the player actually feels the difference.
@KaiserAfini
@KaiserAfini 6 лет назад
Mattias Svensson Some of them think that its exciting for the player to minmax and theorycraft a lot to get a small or, at most, medium edge. Never a large bonus, that would break the flow they want to force upon you. In the end, its a type of mechanical railroading, they don't want to take options away, but they don't want you to use them , because they want to force you towards the "only right way to play". Like how DS3 very strongly discourages mage and hybrid builds because melee "is the only right way to play".
@edwardnigma9756
@edwardnigma9756 6 лет назад
If given the choice I will definately take the option that changes how I play my character or the character interacts with the world over the incremental increase in whatever. I honestly don't understand the point of them in games aside from some sort of sense of obligation on the part of developers to make the player falsely get excited because the words "level up" have appeared on screen.
@KaiserAfini
@KaiserAfini 6 лет назад
Edward Nigma Yep, I prefer how Nioh does it, skills cost a different number of points. You get melee ones which can be spent on the tree of any weapon, mostly in active skills. You can then customize which ones go to what command to make your own playstyle, while some skills are always available. And sometimes you get consumables that give extra points as a reward for a particularly difficult mission, which is pretty awesome. Ninja and onmyo skills give you consumables that recharge at a checkpoint. But you have loadout points for each one and many skills have 3 tiers, higher tiers costing less points to equip. So when you unlock a tier 3 Lightning Shot, for example, you can get two more to have a total of 6 shots or use tiers 2&3 to keep the same number and free up some points for something else. This system is really easy to code and can be huge for build variety.
@KoloXD
@KoloXD 6 лет назад
This is why i kinda dislike Path of Exile. The only exciting stuff are the major skills, the rest is just fodder along the way.
@akirabaes4644
@akirabaes4644 6 лет назад
Break points should be graphed out too. Functions like div, floor can be very useful for that.
@lars0me
@lars0me 6 лет назад
Examples like toe one in the video definitely, but it isn't always that simple. Say you make an RPG with powerful monsters that attack you when you get in range. So you map a break point where you become fast enough to kite certain monsters to infinity. Fair enough. What you didn't expect is that just getting the monsters into certain terrains can be worth most of your health. You can't graph break points you don't know are possible. And writing functions for every single possibility for say a card game can be more effort than you can spare.
@tomfillot5453
@tomfillot5453 6 лет назад
In StarCraft 2, we have that sort of things. They called critical upgrades, and on of the things that you learn to keep track of to compose your strategy. For example, a zergling with +1 armor takes 3 hits to kill by a zealot, instead of just 2. Given the attack speed of the zealot, this thing completely changes the dynamic of this match-up, and protoss learn not to go out if the opponent has +1 armor. The +1 armor also allows zergling to resist a baneling hit with just one hitpoint left, a huuuge change in the dynamic of the match-up. So to complete your thing, in RTS, those breaking points can be (and often are) thought intentionnaly, both by players and designers, to mark turning points in a game, and also defining game stages. It encourages progression I think, since to counter a critical upgrade, you also need to tech up, which in StarCraft means building advanced building, which produce more high-tier units. It's a nice progression incentive.
@davidh6961
@davidh6961 6 лет назад
One time I was playing StarCraft 1 (badly) and I sent a fleet of carriers against a terrain fleet. I had the the invincibility cheat on, but it still took a VERY long time to win because the enemy's battlecurisers had maxed out armor. The carrier drones have a lot of hits per second, but low damage, so a small damage reduction had a huge impact. Now whenever I think of linear damage reduction, I think of those battlecruisers.
@ElBobDestroyer
@ElBobDestroyer 6 лет назад
Totally wanted to say that, props for saying it first! Also break point occurs not only with upgrades but with unit numbers to (4 stalkers to one shot workers) and in some engagement it's win or lose the game if you did or didn't estimate the ennemy force well enough (on the same level of micro).
@adnanilyas6368
@adnanilyas6368 6 лет назад
This is actually a pretty significant problem in Breath of the Wild. The way the armor boosts and weapon durability increases work, the way that a late-game Link fights can afford to be way less skillful than in the early game.
@checkyoursixgaming
@checkyoursixgaming 6 лет назад
I personally prefer games that actually make me feel powerful once I've put in the time and effort. I don't mind late game challenges being introduced, but making me feel weaker late game is worse than making me feel more powerful. A perfect example is the original Everquest. Start any character/class combo. Level 1, you can rush out and kill anything with some work you run across in the starting zone. Of which you are fighting bats, rabbits, snakes, and little kobolds. Then over time you reach max level, go to the highest level zone in the game, and see that it is populated by the same exact looking bats, rabbits, snakes, and kobolds. The difference is there is literally no way you can solo anything in that zone anymore. Infact, you probably couldn't solo anything past level 6 anymore either, but now you need a huge party of people with the best min/max setup to take out the level 60 common bat monster that at level 1 you could beat with a few pokes of a rusty dagger. That is a much worse feeling as a player. Many game have done those horrible masochistic like progression systems and those are just truly abhorrent game design.
@adnanilyas6368
@adnanilyas6368 6 лет назад
T Blank Yeah, that’s also a problem. And that’s something BOTW actually does really well because of how it allows you to piecemeal gain power as a reward for completing tasks (weapon drops from difficult enemies, gear from shrines and side quests, armor boosts from collecting things, etc.) But, in the end, the game leaves you extremely powerful and basically invulnerable to even difficult monsters. It’s one thing to feel powerful. But you can feel powerful and understand that there are perils involved. BOTW does that very well by giving you the challenge straight up and then allowing you to grow and meet it. But there’s still a late-game problem with this design. That said, I don’t really think it’s fair to call it a major criticism because it only hits after you’ve put in maybe 30 or 40 hours into an incredible game.
@sarowie
@sarowie 6 лет назад
Is that due to break points or due to simple progression? Yes, breath of the wild has a negative difficulty curve - no dispute there. But that boils down to giving the player steadly acces to stronger tools, the player having more experience and the enemies only slightly increasing in difficulty. Yes, a end game Link against an end game enemie is stronger (numerically) then a starting link against a starting Monster - but the change is gradual. Every heart helps - and yes the first extra hearth is more important then the last two. But there is no distinct break point. The master sword is a big boost - but that is intentional and is typically used as an axt and rock smasher as other weapons are numerically stronger and more reliable.
@thekiss2083
@thekiss2083 6 лет назад
Adnan Ilyas Agreed. I find the early game much more rewarding and exciting than mid-to-late. Especially when it's so easy to sell gems and stuff to buy good armor and get Link out of his early-game vulnerability
@wanderingrandomer
@wanderingrandomer 6 лет назад
I agree. It does take some of the edge off when you're eventually hunting Lynels for sport! But I feel it's also rewarding considering I was terrified to even engage them for the first 50 hours or so.
@TheJadedMieu
@TheJadedMieu 6 лет назад
When I used to play Payday 2 (before the weapon overhaul) I remember most of the talk about weapon strategy was about hitting damage breakpoints. When choosing a gun and modding it to be optimal, you had to try to hit certain damage values that would let you, say, 1-headshot a normal SWAT or 2-bodyshot an armored cop. Any damage over each breakpoint wasn't important, so you could swap out some damage mods for other stats once you got to that point. I remember there was also this bit about "fake 40" where you needed to hit 40 damage for a breakpoint, but the game displayed 40 when it meant 39.95 or something (which wasn't enough). That was a weird bit of math that made the game a little more difficult to figure out. Also accuracy in that game was on some weird logarithmic scale where 18 was perfect accuracy and every 2 points was way better than the previous 2 points. Payday math was weird.
@zemas1712
@zemas1712 6 лет назад
I am so glad this came out right now... I'm currently working on a combat system for my role playing guild in wow and have spent the past 2 days trying to balance out how a bunch of different classes can do about the same amount of damage with different abilities. It's been a lot of work so far but i think it's time i put the excel ark aside and actually put this thing to the test if i can just convince my guild master to approve the system.
@Gilbot9000
@Gilbot9000 6 лет назад
WHERE ARE YOUR PRECIOUS SPREADSHEETS NOW, EMMONS!?
@Kreiser_VII
@Kreiser_VII 6 лет назад
I don't know you, but that beginning statement is the first time I've heard someone take that stance. As far as I have seen, every player is excited and happy that they can one shoot every enemy, in Dark Souls for example, when I can one shoot everything in the Undead Burg for the first time it feels like I've progressed, all the time spent there that felt like just traversing the land was actually my character improving, and that's rewarding, it makes me feel I'm moving forward
@wanderingrandomer
@wanderingrandomer 6 лет назад
Hmm, this might explain why I find Pokemon games to always suddenly get a lot easier at around level 25-30.
@spellbladeoff-hand7662
@spellbladeoff-hand7662 6 лет назад
Personally I think Pokemon has a MASSIVE issue with Breakpoints. The hardest part of most Pokemon games is the beginning upto the second/third gym, but by then you've got access to mons (Most of which are at least second stage whilst the game's trainers still mostly use first stage Pokemon) and moves of most types, with said moves with enough power to OHKO anything they hit super effectively, meaning much of the Pokemon games is simply matching the mon you're facing to a move of a super effective type and watching their health bar plummet in one hit,
@badassoverlordzetta
@badassoverlordzetta 6 лет назад
The thing that actually destroys pokemon is the fact that exp share is considered a standard feature that causes the player to naturally level up faster than the wild pokemon and trainers in the respective areas. That, and the fact that exp from fights doesn't decay or rise depending on the level gap between you and your opponent make for an rpg experience that is very fun if you're looking for something simple, but grossly unrewarding as a single player experience if you're looking for an engaging challenge. This is to say nothing about pvp which is one of the most splendidly complex games ever constructed, but the base games are very far from their JRPG roots.
@wanderingrandomer
@wanderingrandomer 6 лет назад
I always turn exp. share off as soon as I get it. It is bizarre that it's activated by default when it completely breaks the pacing of the game that Game Freak worked hard to build. It is useful for if I need to grind quickly (I hate grinding so the extra exp is welcome) I gotta say, I love Pokemon's pvp metagame, I think it's incredibly fun, but the in-game always suffers from pacing issues for me.
@5oundOfVictory
@5oundOfVictory 6 лет назад
I just don't understand why the exp share now goes to all of your pokemon, instead of it being a held item that only gives the pokemon that holds it exp. That was a good system, as you could now use a wild pokemon you got, as they'r generally very weak compared to the trainers in the area, making it difficult to train them in a reasonable amount of time.
@ethan24343
@ethan24343 6 лет назад
For a big example of this look at the balancing in Smash games where even making a move do not even 1 more damage even like 0.1 more damage makes an insane difference hence why teir lists are made, the character that has more very slight unbalance adds up and sometimes the Smash developers overlook certain minor exploits of the system that create things such as wave dashing, ledge canceling attacks, melee Fox and Falcos' amazing reflector or "shine", ladder combos for a large variety of characters some being much easier than others, rage making certain attacks way to rewarding on hit due to how much difference the addition knock back makes and also making some weak and or fast moves kill way sooner than even the development team expected, also look at how much stale moves can effect a match in Smash as a series to prevent spam...but then there's unintentional infinite combos, chai grabbing to death and "wobbling" with Ice Climbers in Brawl and Melee respectively....the difference of super armor vs heavy armor vs neither and much more is what makes certain match ups *very* different and for the most part very dynamic actually...
@adultsuede4384
@adultsuede4384 6 лет назад
I think dark souls was one of the first games that made me really think about particular break points, and is a good example of them done right. By the time you have leveled up and learned an area well enough to traverse it quickly and kill all the Dudes, you have ascended the rewards in that area usually. It was one of the first games where I got actually thinking about how many hits an enemy takes to kill.
@PoorMuttski
@PoorMuttski 6 лет назад
mixing and matching weapons with armor with character skills is why I still play Borderlands 2. that game seems to avoid the break point issue by dramatically ramping up difficulty in each new area, and shuttling the player along by limiting how many side quests are available. which is great! creating this sick melee build Zero is so great because that build is dependent on the quality of shield and the power of the other weapons. the game constantly getting harder means you are constantly hunting for new gear, which means constantly tinkering with your character. which means i am constantly coming back to that game
@Freekymoho
@Freekymoho 6 лет назад
Another great example of this from the game Duelyst is that there is little difference between a minion with 1 health and a minion with 2 health, but *all* the difference in the world between 2 and 3 health. This is because duelyst heroes all start with a base 2 attack (like a permanent 2 power weapon to compare with hearthstone). 3 health is the breakpoint where a general cannot remove a minion instantly any more.
@henjwer97
@henjwer97 6 лет назад
0/10 not enough Point Break jokes
@timeagenty4560
@timeagenty4560 6 лет назад
I've got to say, That music track you put at the end of this episode led me on to play one of the best games I've ever played.
@DavidBeaumont
@DavidBeaumont 6 лет назад
Love the "Hot Fuzz" reference(s) :)
@J58LRJ
@J58LRJ 6 лет назад
When does 1 + 1 =/= 2? In a field of characteristic 2
@travisbewley7084
@travisbewley7084 6 лет назад
I love it in D&D where that static upgrade of stats means a bizzare progression. Like think about Base Attack Bonus for worriors. You start with +1, at level 2 you have a +2 and at lvl 3 you have a +3. That means at lvl 2 you base attack becomes 100% better but leveling up to level 3 it has only grown by 50%. The same issues happens in D&D with HP. Getting to level 2 and suddenly you are about twice as compatent as you used to be.
@nicolaspersonnic5440
@nicolaspersonnic5440 6 лет назад
In Biology, technically 1+1=3 !
@guaymaster
@guaymaster 6 лет назад
Sometimes 1 = 2 Or 1 = 4
@wu1ming9shi
@wu1ming9shi 6 лет назад
In Chemistry or physics it can often be 11.
@atalantab8764
@atalantab8764 6 лет назад
No, nowhere in nature does 1 + 1 = 3. you get 1+1 + food +energy + water + time = 3
@PotatoSmasher420
@PotatoSmasher420 6 лет назад
Also in maths you get 1+2+3+4+..... = -1/12 NOW Thats a break point
@GeneralLuigiTBC
@GeneralLuigiTBC 6 лет назад
That one took me a moment. My mind is way too innocent...
@azertyQ
@azertyQ 6 лет назад
test early test often (it's cheaper that way in the long run)
@Gemoron
@Gemoron 6 лет назад
This episode could have been shown with the old Zerg versus Protoss matchup in starcraft 1. an unupgraded Protoss Zealot takes 3 hits to kill a Zergling. with one attack upgrade it becomes 2 Hits. A defense upgrade of the Zerg turns it back to 3 Hits. This is not just a balance point between 2 units, but the breakpoint of the whole matchup. It isn't just a breakpoint between 2 units, but the whole matchup hinges on these units. On the other hand it creates a strong theme of a race of upgrades or going to new kinds of units which makes these breakpoints obsolete.
@iklone
@iklone 6 лет назад
The art in this one is a return to form. I'd forgotten that your videos used to be full of constant funny little jokes. Please reincorporate them back into your main artists' work
@moute_3
@moute_3 6 лет назад
One thing you can do to soften up break points is to add some randomness to your game like crits and damage spread, so that (in the example the video gave) you can't one shot a mob at level one, you can with a crit at level two, you can with a high damage non-crit at level three and then you always one shot at four.
@isillor529
@isillor529 6 лет назад
That's a big decision that leads to a completely different game. Its not a solution, it just means break points are less important to your game if youre already doing that anyways. And with an rng system, break points are harder to control, not easier. If there's even a 1% chance that you 1 hit kill the first boss, thousands of players are going to have a bad experience. If your formula is broken "lets just randomize that" is almost never the right answer.
@LimeyLassen
@LimeyLassen 6 лет назад
I was going to say the same thing, there's a reason D&D has dice.
@LOZFFVII
@LOZFFVII 6 лет назад
I love you guys for throwing in a reference to Disgaea in there.
@Andrewspieces
@Andrewspieces 6 лет назад
Thanks Extra Credits. I've seen you mention 'break points' in other videos, so it's great to see a video specifically about that. It's very interesting to learn about 'game feel'. It's something I'm aiming to focus on in the game I'm working towards making... but I'm only at the 'block breaker' module of my game course at the moment, haha. Oh well. All big things have small beginnings. Thanks for all your videos. Looking forward to your future content. Peace
@TheRayny
@TheRayny 6 лет назад
There is this tabletop rpg in Italy called The Last Torch that works a lot on breakpoints, given obviously that tabletop rpgs have much different feel from videogame rpgs. And it does it in a good way, in my opinion. Basically it's a fantasy roleplay game where the character can't level up, can gain few additional abilities that can allow them to do more stuff or empower them but overall they don't increase stats, health or such by playing normally. As such, the monsters have almost always the same health pool given how much they have to be strong. To give a comparison, an elven sorcerer has 6 hit points and a dagger deals 1d6 damage, and those health points do not change. This means a lot while deciding how and with what attack. For example, a wolf has 5 hit point and with a sword you deal 1d8 damage ( you roll an 8-sided dice to determine damage). There are few modifiers there, from -1 to +2 and the possibility to roll two dices to keep the highest depending on class, and that means that while wielding a sword you can oneshot wolves, even thought that is not certain. And unless the foe you are fighting is not a common wolf ( wolf chiefs exist that have 8 hp) the damage you deal has a lot of chance to kill it. Same applies to other weapons, from bows to daggers, that deal less damage but can still kill them on hit. Then there are two handed weapons which deal 1d10 damage, but occupy two hands and don't let you equip a shield. A shield is important in this game since it allows you to evade ranged attacks, so damage wise is not that good to deal few points of damage more only to be much more vulnerable. But having a 2-handed weapon dealing more damage allows you to kill immediately stronger enemies that otherwise would be much harder to kill, or impossible to do so. While facing trolls that have 20 hp you can defeat one in one turn if you manage to hit with two well-placed attacks together with your allies. The game has very quick combats with low health pools ( the strongest enemy in the game has 50 health points, which are MASSIVE compared to other foes but is not quite so intimidating), and since that applies to the player too it feels like always living on the edge and makes every fight not a trivial challenge.
@mickodooku6058
@mickodooku6058 6 лет назад
I think that the damage example can be fixed by having multiple enemies with different amounts of health. For example: In the binding of Isaac, a +0.5 to damage doesn't change the amount of tears it takes to kill most enemies. However, you can now kill the dips (tiny poops) in one shot. It is also more useful against bosses where you can stack this bonus. This allows constant break points for a powerful experience.
@koloblicin9721
@koloblicin9721 6 лет назад
I'd love to see an episode on this sort of effect in the Borderlands games. Specifically in borderlands 2 with the Bee shield and the raid bosses forcing a total rework of future DLC.
@elHandsomeDan
@elHandsomeDan 6 лет назад
All the Hot Fuzz references were terrific!
@christiantodor9128
@christiantodor9128 6 лет назад
You know, a perfect example of when this goes right is the Paper Mario games. If you get to a high enough level, smaller enemies won't give out star points.
@sanfransiscon
@sanfransiscon 6 лет назад
Making common rewards in low-risk areas be almost negligible sounds like a good solution for RPGs. You could make EXP go down significantly if the encounter is much lower level than the player, or give equipment specific upgrade materials that means you'll need to go on to more difficult areas to find what you need to keep upgrading. You could also tie permanent character upgrades to story progress, like expanding Zelda's heart container system into different stats that you put limited progress and exploration based points into, balanced in a way that someone investing heavily into one thing feels very powerful in that way, but not so much that someone skipping all optional content would have no reasonable chance against the next area.
@JellicleCat09
@JellicleCat09 6 лет назад
Well now I need to watch Point Break again. THANKS A LOT. No, really. I love Point Break. Thanks for getting me to watch it again.
@Next0gen0
@Next0gen0 6 лет назад
Monster Hunter feels like the perfect action series that manages to avoid breakpoint's by doing simple measures. First, making sure most unimportant stats are hidden (such as enemy health bars) to ensure your not actually noticing when your effectively killing something. You have to get a feel and understanding when you are. Second, when you feel like your getting the hang of thing's, it ramps up the difficulty with High Rank, which alter's your play style drastically.
@PoochyEXE
@PoochyEXE 6 лет назад
There's a neat example of designing around this in Splatoon. Everyone has 100.0 max HP, which means weapons would have damage breakpoints at 100.0, 50.0, 33.4, 25.0, 20.0, and so on. But there's a hidden mechanic where Damage Up gear can never cause a weapon's base damage to cross a breakpoint. For example, a weapon with 24 base damage per hit with +10% worth of Damage Up gear actually only does 24.9 damage. Even if you stack +30% worth, it still does 24.9 damage. Now, this doesn't actually make Damage Up useless -- for example, a charger that does 100.0 base damage with +25% Damage Up can 1HKO with an 80% charge instead of needing a full charge. But it does prevent Damage Up from breaking the meta.
@researchinbreeder
@researchinbreeder 6 лет назад
As someone who frequently plays Pokemon Nuzlockes, I tend to rely on the break points found in most early-game areas to speed up grinding. For instance, Viridian Forest is a pretty good grinding spot up through level 10, and even a bit higher if you get a lot of Metapod encounters. Since those Metapods become exponentially longer fights the weaker your pokemon are, it's much faster if your initial hit takes out a fair swath of health. The break point is when the first hit deals 60% of its HP. At that point, Harden no longer prevents the second hit from KO'ing, since it will only reduce that second hit to 40%. Since Metapods tend to give about ten times their level in EXP, they are actually just as efficient as most of the trainers between Pewter City and Mt. Moon, with much less danger of losing a Pokemon to a lucky crit (RIP Leonardo, best Wortortle). Then again, abnegation is one of the core appeals for me, so maybe its just me.
@Triforce_of_Doom
@Triforce_of_Doom 6 лет назад
As someone who hopes to mainly do RPGs, this video was very handy.
@oj59
@oj59 5 лет назад
In certain games, after a breakpoint, the loot you get from easy enemies becomes trivial, and the XP also trivial
@davidm5674
@davidm5674 3 года назад
5:30 I actually believe in a different method. Say for each slime you killed, you get one piece of gear, levels 1-4. When the breakpoint occurs, instead of leaving them dissatisfied by only giving them level 1-2 gear so they cant improve, I would give them level 4 gear all the time. The is a great way to make your player feel awesome as well as know exactly what power level they are at. And of course, now that they have all the super rare stuff and can't get anything better, they still move on. Except now you know how powerful they are so you can design future levels accordingly, and they also feel great.
@pcachu
@pcachu 6 лет назад
Looks like someone forgot to give Allison the memo: Hecks should always cause Sneks.
@ocadioan
@ocadioan 6 лет назад
Skyrim's break point: getting lvl 100 enchanting. After that, nothing else matters anymore.
@isillor529
@isillor529 6 лет назад
Skyrims break point: getting a bow.
@griffincrouch2226
@griffincrouch2226 6 лет назад
References in this are amazing
@BroudbrunMusicMerge
@BroudbrunMusicMerge 6 лет назад
Just a note: Including visuals that don't directly act as a visual aid can distract from the message of the video itself, even if ( _especially if_ ) it's replaced with a reference that's loosely related to one of the words/phrases said in that segment, rather than the concept of the segment as a whole.
@fucknuggectmegee5579
@fucknuggectmegee5579 6 лет назад
I also just love how he's leaning on the podium
@vincentmillette7584
@vincentmillette7584 6 лет назад
I wonder what wins the award for subtlest break point. My nominee is Rainbow Six Siege, where the big differences between the operators (playable characters) are SUPPOSED to be their special gadget, like thermite wall-breaching explosives, EMP grenades, bear traps, and various methods of seeing your opponents through walls - not weapon stats. Ash has always been one of the most popular operators, especially by the world's top players, largely because of her weapon stats. Ubisoft's latest attempt to make her a more average operator is to reduce one of her rifle's base damage from 41 to 39 (in a game where all players start each round with 100 health). This means that her 860rpm fully-automatic rifle sometimes needs an extra bullet to knock down her opponent (depending on various factors such as the target's armour rating), which takes 0.07 seconds to fire.
@NimhLabs
@NimhLabs 6 лет назад
So... "Break Points" is the proper name for how nearly every CAPCOM game ends up being broken as fuck in various ways? I say "nearly every" so that people don't start listing CAPCOM games where they think something is not completely broken--but I actually mean "every CAPCOM game" This is part of the charm for playing them. I wish we were back in the days when we had three different Mega Man games coming out every year.
@cameronbrennan4109
@cameronbrennan4109 6 лет назад
You guys are great! Keep up the good work!
@TheDSasterX
@TheDSasterX 6 лет назад
Just a small correction* In League of Legends your ultimate ranks every 5 levels up (at 6,11,16)
@Seegtease
@Seegtease 6 лет назад
Breakpoints are a huge part of raiding in Pokemon GO. When fast attacks deal 3-4 damage, getting your attack high enough to raise them by one point is a 25-33% increase in damage. That's a pretty solid example from a simple game.
@chinesemaoist5530
@chinesemaoist5530 6 лет назад
I am someone who enjoys being over powered in videogames. One of the first things I do is look for console commands to unlock all my skills. I don't like missing things and needing like 10 playthroughs to see all the options the game offers.
@ciaranfahy7179
@ciaranfahy7179 5 лет назад
One method that can be good in stat based games is to add a small (+-5-20%) vairence in the amount of damage that an attack would do.
@CarsSimplified
@CarsSimplified 6 лет назад
I know I have encountered this in many games, but I can't recall which ones. I just know I felt an overwhelming "Oh yeah, THAT!" while watching.
@GregTom2
@GregTom2 6 лет назад
A couple of days ago, I clicked on extra credits season 1 episode 1. I guess I'm all caught up.
@Humbird00
@Humbird00 6 лет назад
There's another design hazard to watch out for that you didn't mention at all. It's partially related to this. Very early in a game, every single stat point tends to matter immensely and tends to have immediately noticeable consequences. But a short while later in the game, individual points will only occasionally make a noticeable difference. And in late game, they can be almost meaningless. Buffing the player based on percentage theoretically mitigates this to ensure that break points will still occur. But you'll still need to pay attention to when they happen and design around them.
@calc8017
@calc8017 6 лет назад
The hot fuzz references are gold
@MungkaeX
@MungkaeX 6 лет назад
You're right Extra Credits, I do want to go replay Cave Story.
@Zorgdub
@Zorgdub 6 лет назад
That wasn't about breakpoints, that was about bad choice of diagnostic parameter. For example "damage per attack" means very little in a vaccuum, damage per second is more relevant, and in the end it's about Hits (or Time) to Kill. Breakpoints are what you should worry about **after** you've found the right parameters to observe.
@lukeiannello6190
@lukeiannello6190 6 лет назад
Call of Duty games do this a bit. Some guns deal 34 damage up close and 33 damage at a distance. Why? Because 34 damage on a 100 health player is a 3-shot kill up close, but 33 damage on a 100 health player is a 4-shot kill at a distance. Decreasing the damage by 1 makes the gun take 33% longer to get a kill.
@SoujiMonaru
@SoujiMonaru 6 лет назад
Persona 3 is a good one for this. In Tartarus you fight enemies that appear as crawling black blobs on the tower floors. At levels lower than them, they aggressively lunge and chase after you. When you are higher than them, they run away. They added purple ones that ran after you all the time as they were always higher than you at that particular time, and yellow ones that were rare ones that always tried to escape you. This made the exploration of the tower that much more thrilling. Shame Persona 4 dropped this mechanic and only had the enemies always chase you....though they did add the Reaper that was extremely hard to kill!
@jeffreymedvick6541
@jeffreymedvick6541 6 лет назад
Oh hey, Cave Story remix for the ending. ... But isn't everything in Cave Story all power spikes, not break points? When your guns become better, they do so in mechanical ways from mechanical means. Like, the bubble gun gets better because you can charge and store your next shot, not because it automatically kills enemies in fewer shots. And nothing's really automatic, you have to dodge in order to maintain your power, and you get more powerful by pushing for EXP instead of playing safe. It seems more like carefully designed power spikes rather than carefully designed breakpoints, even when the upgrades are mathematical.
@MrSporitus
@MrSporitus 6 лет назад
Entire metagames in ccg’s can be defined by breakpoints.
@thaipankatima658
@thaipankatima658 6 лет назад
Kingdom Come Deliverance has a break point. It used to take me 10-15 minutes just to kill a bandit but when i got a spike in strength and equipment, all those raiders and Cuman soldiers become one hit kills. Heck, even Runt, the mid-boss barely got a hit on me and he fell in just two strikes.
@R3DT1D3
@R3DT1D3 6 лет назад
Shooters, especially co-op ones, run into this all the time. For example Payday 2 weapons are gauged almost entirely off the breakpoints in damage for certain difficulties. If a gun can't easily reach a certain breakpoint, it's deemed worthless or a joke weapon.
@feathero3
@feathero3 6 лет назад
Loved the Hot Fuzz references! Great lesson too. 🐱
@stuffystuffclub
@stuffystuffclub 6 лет назад
Of course, where at all possible, make your maths describe the payer experience. In your admittedly simplistic example, you should not have looked at the linear progression of damage, but rather the jerky and unbalanced regression of hits-to-kill, which you can formulate as enemy health divided by player damage, rounded up. If possible, maths is better than testing. I’m not saying testing isn't always important, but if you can’t find the reason why your system doesn’t play well, any fix you make will be of the sticky plaster variety, rather than a true repair of the underlying problem.
@isillor529
@isillor529 6 лет назад
Damage formulas are never just enemies health - my damage stat. Player lvl, attack stat, weapon stat, weapon type, elemental dmg, equipment bonus, enemy type, enemy trait, player trait, any triangle system, weapon affinity, lvl of weapon, player stance, special resistances, environmental modification. Enemies defense rank, enemies armor value, ALL active buffs and debuffs for ALL OF THESE THINGS independently... Calculators only work if you can input the exact values for everything in every encounter in every area. Games are too dynamic for math to efficiently replace testing. And if there's any rng forget about it completely.
@rmsgrey
@rmsgrey 6 лет назад
+Paige Wilson While there are rich combat systems, generally player damage is fairly predictable. Blind calculation generally won't help, but intelligent calculation can replace a lot of hours of testing different combinations and seeing similar results. The question to ask is not "Does every combination produce a sensible result?" (though if it's at all feasible to do so, that should be addressed in testing at some point) but rather "What needs to happen for a crazy result to come out?" If you're looking for jumps in time to kill, then you can work out the threshold damage values for those jumps, and work backwards through your damage equation, looking at best-case and worst-case values for the various terms, to arrive at ranges for the underlying player stats where jumps could happen. Approaching things from a theoretical perspective rather than an experimental one should always be faster for identifying instances of a known and understood problem - the playtester's job is to find the unknown problems, and the places where what happens in practice isn't what you predicted in theory. If your damage formula can produce unforeseeable outcomes, then you're going to have a hell of a time both in design and in testing; if its effects are constrained, then you can do a mathematical analysis to calculate possible outcomes, plausible outcomes, the underlying distribution of outcomes, the probability of a level X character managing to one-hit-kill any given monster, etc. If it's practical for playtesters to test every possible combination, then it's practical for an automated tester to do so in less time.
@isillor529
@isillor529 6 лет назад
The difference is that play testers aren't testing every possible combination, they're testing the experience, and what players encounter during the typical experience. Humans can't plug in x to find y as fast as computers can and computers can never transcend the math to analyze and test the more fundamentals experience they formulate. so it's not a matter of which is more efficient at the same task, but that neither can be neglected. And specifically im saying that no formula will ever be able to simulate the real values a player will be encountering in a dynamic game world to a degree that player testing isn't a necessity. Not even if you decide on an acceptable kill time and work the numbers until your probability of encountering a faster time are minimized. His approach of a simple formula, and your approach of a complex one are both insufficient methods of reliably smoothing the player experience itself, in other words. It shouldn't be used as a justification for underutilize the solutions presented in the video. That's not something that can be overturned simply by making the formula more predictable using probability, but at this point we already agree anyways.
@rmsgrey
@rmsgrey 6 лет назад
Yeah, I think the point we're converging on is that playtesting is crucial for picking up problems - blind spots in your mathematical analysis because you didn't think to ask the right question - but once you are aware of a potential problem, you can (and probably should) update your theoretical analysis to make sure you know all the circumstances where it could happen, rather than relying on playtesters to discover them all.
@BlackINKim
@BlackINKim 6 лет назад
Reminds me of the old Loch n' Load in TF2 Back in the days, it did +25% more damage than the regular Grenade Launcher, at the cost of having a way smaller radius blast and smaller clip size. But the thing was that in most situation, it might've as well did +200% damage, because that damage increase make it so that it did around 130 damage, in a game where half the classes only have 125 HP, so you used to one-shot most of the ennemies as opposed to the grenade launcher, who needed two.
@rcookie5128
@rcookie5128 6 лет назад
Nice topic once again! And awesome cave story end music! :)
@pieterfaes6263
@pieterfaes6263 6 лет назад
I wanted to give an extra like for those Hot Fuzz-references. Nice job!
@Aethorian112
@Aethorian112 6 лет назад
I feel like Dark Souls avoids this trap well, you can grind all you like, but by the time you can start one-shotting, you're so overleveled to the point of all soul drops being borderline meaningless (Also shoutout to that Cave Story music at the end!)
@Aethorian112
@Aethorian112 6 лет назад
That is true, though I do think it's countered by the fact that you have limited spell uses, attunement slots, and in the case of Dark Souls III, Mana points so that you can't use it 100% of the time, and then by the time you can, you're probably way overleveled, or a glass cannon.
@grodon909
@grodon909 6 лет назад
Sort of. If you're fighting trash mobs throughout the level, you want to make sure you're being efficient, so you usually want to have just enough damage to do so efficiently, so the rest can be spent on other things, like defense. For example, in DS3, I needed to farm a ton of Blue Ears off some knights, using a pyro character. Assuming you use spell "X", you can boost your power by like 50%, but you only need a 30% power boost for X to 1 shot. So you grab just enough to hit that 30%, then you put everything else into other useful things, like defense, SP, increased item drop rate, increased soul gain, or, most importantly, improved fashion. It's a very classical breakpoint, and you can make similar examples with other situations (e.g. how much +atk stuff do I need to 1 or 2 shot some annoying mob, instead of 3 or 4 shotting it).
@dancorps1388
@dancorps1388 6 лет назад
I think Darksouls have tons of breakpoints, but non of them matter long term. Getting a new weapon can help you drastically. the homing soul mass and soul spear spells are more damage then your old spells at the same speed of the fast but weak one. non of these matter though. If you cant dodge an incoming attack, it doesn't matter you have a +15 great axe. The spells are pointless if you cant get to a safe spot and cast them. The game have breakpoints, but it player skill that matter in the end.
@FellshardYT
@FellshardYT 6 лет назад
"Joke's on you; I'm designing a new Math Blaster game!"
@Stiv64_
@Stiv64_ 6 лет назад
4:18 please consider the difference between a bug and a glitch: The player CAN NOT take advantage of bugs. These are errors that freeze the game, cause dead ends in the sequence of events or anything simliar that PROHIBITS the player from doing something.
@mushroomdude123
@mushroomdude123 6 лет назад
I feel like Pokemon could learn a thing or two from this. I’ve recently got into Nuzlockes and there, you mainly end up using 1 or 2 Pokes the whole way through. It/They become overleveled SO FAST, that the only challenge is staying alive until the end of the game. On the other end, I feel like some Pokemon don’t learn moves early enough (or at all through level up). In Platinum, I’m using a Tangrowth, and it only learns one good Grass move and that’s Power Whip...at level 57...And you’re stuck with Mega Drain until then.
@carlose4314
@carlose4314 6 лет назад
"2+2=5 It has always been equal to 5. Big Brother is watching." -1984
@batjoker500
@batjoker500 6 лет назад
Who else loved that feels face on dan at the end
@jumanjicostco3248
@jumanjicostco3248 6 лет назад
When you hit 6th level as a bard and realize you have access to all class spells. POWEEEEEEEERRRRRR
@SchiferlED
@SchiferlED 6 лет назад
This is why I can play Path of Exile for over 3000 hours and still be interested to make a new build every 3 months.
@PVS3
@PVS3 6 лет назад
This video would benefit greatly with real examples, especially of BAD break points that escaped testing or surprised the dev team. Great topic, nonetheless!
@WilliamImmendorf
@WilliamImmendorf 6 лет назад
I appreciate all the Hot Fuzz references here. ^^ Great vid.
@lukearchbell1885
@lukearchbell1885 6 лет назад
As a kid I reached a break point in The Simpsons: Road Rage (The Crazy Taxi knock-off). I had learned an optimal route through one of the levels, and after a few weeks of playing everyday, I managed to gain enough technical skill to always barely beat the clock on every part of it. My high score, which had been increasing by a couple hundred points every day, jumped from around 25,000 (The highest named score tier) to over 100,000 in a single play session. Perhaps a different kind of break point, as the system broke under the weight of a determined 12 year old as opposed to the introduction of new stats or mechanics, but certainly one that drastically changed the play experience for me. Which was a shame, because until I broke that skill barrier, the game was a perfectly tuned arcade experience.
@DunantheDefender
@DunantheDefender 6 лет назад
Loved the Hot Fuzz references.
@jonasn5
@jonasn5 6 лет назад
As an engineer I gotta say - the example of linear progression there is because its not balanced even mathmatically. You're increasing input linearly below a saturation limit so the increase has 0 value until a new saturation point is obtained. This is a case of bad understanding of math in systems.
@Panikdemet
@Panikdemet 6 лет назад
There is visual feedback though. The player knows they are getting slightly stronger, even if it's only until level 4 (in the example shown in the video) that it actually makes a difference. I think being able to see the increase in your damage serves two purposes: A) It teaches you that you are getting stronger (yes, the first time playing an RPG you don't know that leveling up = you get stronger). B) It sets a goal for you and motivates you to push for that goal.
@timeforsuchaword
@timeforsuchaword 6 лет назад
yomojoflo Only if the game tells the player all the numbers and how they are used.
@brandonmartin-moore5302
@brandonmartin-moore5302 6 лет назад
I agree
@archmagusofevil
@archmagusofevil 6 лет назад
jonasn5 Thank you! I'm a mathematician, and I cringed everytime he said the math is not enough. It's not that the math isn't enough, it's that you aren't looking at the proper math!
@Me2893me
@Me2893me 6 лет назад
You just re-explained his point to him. The point is that it isn't mathematically balanced and it is easy to see the "saturation" points in his example which is what he wants. The point is in a real situation these imbalances are usually much harder to see. In addition, changing a number to fix one instance frequently imbalances another instance. RTS, RPG, MOBA, and TCG games all have a very hard time with this. Edit: in theory the math alone is enough to balance a game but this is similar to telling a programmer that in theory a version of a program can be made that is without bugs. In theory it is possible, in reality the problem is so vast and complex that rarely can every issue be fixed and not spawn a new one unless the problem is of trivial difficulty in the first place such as his example.
@trevorpatten7688
@trevorpatten7688 6 лет назад
mmm that Cave Story at the end
@christianboi7690
@christianboi7690 6 лет назад
4:34 Disgaea! I was just playing that.
@Ignawesome
@Ignawesome 6 лет назад
Excellent episode as always, and great Hot Fuzz references
@JAM_564
@JAM_564 6 лет назад
Might artillery in Civ 5 be a break point? Until you unlock it, your city-destroying units have to be in range of the city to deal damage. Artillery doesn't. It makes taking enemy cities a cakewalk as long as you position your units correctly.
@mihnea5111
@mihnea5111 6 лет назад
Or, for example an enemy has 3 hp (low numbers for simplicity), at the first level you deal 1 dmg, level 2 - 2 dmg, level 3 - 3dmg, so every level is worth it.
@kempo_95
@kempo_95 6 лет назад
Green Magic Production This works because you are using small numbers, after lvl 3 you are at a break point.
@LaceNWhisky
@LaceNWhisky 6 лет назад
I love the Hot Fuzz reference.
@lizzyb.8009
@lizzyb.8009 6 лет назад
maybe it's just the example you used, but i actually appreciate break points (i actually parsed "break" as in "take a break" when i read the title of this video). i use them as a sort of guidepost for when it's a good time to move on to a different questing area, or as a way to end that "just one more turn/battle/etc" loop when i need to turn off for the night. in numbers-heavy RPGs and the like, it actually frustrates me when there isn't a clear break point of this sort, or if the one that exists is so far off that i'd have to be certifiably insane to grind my way to it. sure, you definitely want to be *aware* of what and where all these things are, but i didn't quite like the "these are bad things you should avoid having" tone. again, maybe it's just where my mind went after the example you used at the beginning, but still...
@lizzyb.8009
@lizzyb.8009 6 лет назад
oh. i paused the video to write this comment literally seconds before you got to this point in the video. ^^; oops. still, i don't know that it's something that a player should necessarily have to build for, specifically (though, of course, very much depending on the type of game you're making). i'm working on a game (RPG Maker, but hey it's a start) with a sort of open world setup and making use of the turn-based system to require thoughtful and strategic use of abilities in order to survive at-level encounters. so the player will have to cross through the same areas a fair bit, even with a fast travel system, and battles will take time and effort, but i don't want them to become a slog when the player is just trying to get somewhere. my general rule of thumb is going to be "challenging the first time, easy on return trips". i want to avoid things like what i experience in most Pokemon games, which is that i'll only go through a given tunnel or cave once until i've beaten the Elite Four, and even after that it'll generally only be exactly as far in as i need to catch all the Pokemon, or a run to get items (while using a guide). i never just explore them because it's so tedious, and even if your Pokemon are all level 100, you can only explore so much before they run out of PP. unless you just Run from everything the whole time, but that's tedious in its own right.
@KaliTakumi
@KaliTakumi 6 лет назад
>Summon Stitch >Spam magnet and thunder >Profit
@romantistcaveman
@romantistcaveman 5 лет назад
This is all over the place in RTSes, especially games like AoE and StarCraft where damage and health values per unit are relatively small. Certain upgrades will be a top priority in certain matchups, as +1 armor allows Unit A to survive three hits from Unit B instead of only two. I gotta wonder: exactly how much of these "classic" break points are due to the fact that most player characters and enemies still do the same damage when they're only at 1 HP vs. 100 HP? Granted, if the enemy is being one-shot it doesn't really matter, but I feel like because the difference between 1 HP and 0 HP is so suddenly drastic (the classic "critical existence failure"), it's probably emphasizing math that wouldn't normally be emphasized.
@Nathansabino555
@Nathansabino555 6 лет назад
The cavestory theme remixed caught me off guard
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