The actress in the beginning is also the voice and model for Ellie in the games. So basically Ellie is giving birth to Ellie. Just like the second in command in episode 8 is the actual voice actor and model for Joe.
Beautiful reactions and discussions, as always! For what it's worth, I think Joel also lies to Ellie because 1) he's worried that if she knew the truth she'd eventually run away and try to find other doctors working on a cure, and sacrifice herself, and 2) even more importantly, he's worried that if she finds out what he did, Ellie will resent or even hate him for taking away her choice and her "purpose" in the world. Which would essentially be "losing" his new daughter in a different way. So there's also some self-interest in Joel's lie.
Another note is he can tell she’s clearly traumatized/exhibiting signs of depression (I think he shared his story of attempting to take his own life as a way to say “I’ve been there and it’ll be okay”). I also think that he’s afraid if he tells her he lied to her, knowing her survivor complex/guilt she feels, she may try to go off and hurt/harm herself in some way. He’s protecting her from herself as well.
I really appreciate your reaction to the decision to vivisect Ellie. I think some people take the message that the Fireflies are evil and Joel was right to kill them, and that is clearly not what the writers intended. This is classic trolley problem stuff but because we don't believe taking Ellie's brain will save the world, the message that Joel turns a dark path that seperates him from Ellie doesn't jive. From our pov, Joel just saved Ellie from crazy quack zealots. Which is going to really hurt the reception of season 2, just as it hurt the reception of the second game. Both really rely on the idea that Joel sacrificed the world for Ellie's sake, against her wishes.
Yeah, it's such a no-brainer that Joel does the right thing in preventing Ellie's murder. The Fireflies just come across as militant fanatics who have no humanity or ethics. But then I always felt that since I played the first game. Whatever Druckmann's intentions were in attempting to offer a balanced scenario, it never worked. It's not even a trolley problem. The only debatable issue is whether Joel should or shouldn't have lied to Ellie about it afterwards.
The critical thing is if Ellie agrees w/ the Fireflies. Imagine if she had said "no", and they just let her go. Then she goes on to get killed by either infected or raiders a while later. In this desperate world, even a small chance is more precious than an individual's life.
Some people focus too much on whether the firefly's plan would have worked. I think if it would have worked, and joel knows it would and it would save the entire world, he would still kill everyone in the hospital. He was not going to lose another daughter.
Yeah. I realize the dialogue does leave some ambiguity about whether the plan would work but I think we are meant to assume that it would have worked and that all the characters fully believed it would work.
Yeah, I do think within the world of the game we’re supposed to believe their plan would have worked. Otherwise it doesn’t leave Joel with a moral dilemma at the end. However, we’re always gonna get hung up on logic. It’s just the way our brains work! The good thing is that the show was well-written enough and well-acted enough that we could still feel the emotional impact. (Have definitely been brought out of a show or movie before when the logic is just too stupid)
I think it doesn't matter whether we're meant to think the cure would work or not. Their world is desperate enough that such a chance is more important to everyone, except Joel, than one person's life. What's critical is what Ellie wants. She was never given a choice by either Joel or Marlene, but it's clear that she was willing to go the latter's way in order to justify everything that happened surrounding her.
Yeah people always get so hung up on that when it’s irrelevant to everything, having the ‘the cure wouldn’t work’ debate always just leaves a lot of the first game and show and the moral dilemma pointless, I know that’s how people are but in fiction we need to look at it from that world, where it’s likely it would work and the characters think it will work and how to them it’s worth the chance, in real life we don’t have fungus zombies walking around so the logistics don’t really matter lol. Joel wouldn’t care either way if it would work or not, that’s not what he’s thinking about
I think deep down, Joel knows Marlene was right-had Ellie been given the choice, she would have chosen to sacrifice herself (she felt that being the cure was her purpose), but selfishly, Joel couldn’t bear to lose again. An interesting note too-Joel lost Sarah, but not due to an infected, she was shot by a member of the military, part of the government who thought they were doing what was for the greater good. Had Sarah died due to becoming an infected, Joel may have been more on board with/had hope for a cure. But we’ve known from the beginning that he has lost all faith in humanity. To him, Marlene and the Firefies represent the government who’s also doing this for the greater good, but the cost would be him losing another child, and he can’t do that again. I loved the full-circle moment of him holding Ellie the same way he held Sarah those 20 years before. The world took Sarah from him, so he took Ellie from the world. Joel was thinking of Bill’s letter (I used to hate the world and was happy when everyone died. But there was one person worth saving-so that’s what I did). And Ellie is thinking of what Maria told her (the only people who can betray us are the ones we trust). It’s heartbreaking that in order for Joel to heal, he has to hurt Ellie. 😢
Re: the King Solomon comparison and the "real" parent interceding to save the child at whatever cost, I read somewhere that they had asked some people who watched the series whether they thought that Joel did the right thing or not. People without children were split, whether he was selfish and doomed the world or if it was the right thing to do to save Ellie. Parents were pretty much unanimous that they would do anything and everything to save their child, if they were in Joel's shoes and they felt that he 100% did the right thing, something they would do.
It is of course possible, that killing Ellie was not their first option. Presumably the doctors have tried different solutions, perhaps even with other people who are immune. in fact, it is hinted at that they know this is their only shot and that there has been extensive research. Joel is not a scientists, and he doesn't care about whether it would have worked or not. There was no point in trying to explain the scientific process in great detail with him. I think it's easy for people to assume the Fireflies are rushing things and don't understand science because they don't want Ellie to die.
The great thing about Joel's decision is this: he DOES NOT CARE about the distribution or the efficacy of the vaccine. He doesn't care about the Fireflies' ethical principles or their goals or politics. He cares about... None of that. He cares about one thing and one thing only: the procedure would mean that Ellie would die. That's it. He doesn't care if the vaccine would work or it works and everything goes back to normal. He simply doesn't want her to die. All the ridiculous hypotheticals and rationalizations people delve into is just... Kinda pointless cuz none of that had any bearing in Joel's decision. He even tells Marlene to find someone else (to be the sacrificial lamb). He doesn't care about what the fireflies do so long as Ellie is safe. What Joel did is selfish, is fucked up. But it is wholly understandable and human. Joel even recognizes that Ellie would probably want to die for the cure. It is WHY he lies (could also be that he's trying to save her from the guilt). Too many people start rationalizing Joel's decision to try and posture him as the good guy and the Fireflies as Satan's minions lol. Joel himself would probably abhorr that. He's a simple man with no real delusions about who he is or what he's done. This is why he's one of my favorite characters of all time, and why, despite fully acknowledging both sides of the dilemma and the various morally gray (to say the least) decisions that were made (by both parties)... I end up siding with him. Though I truly feel for Ellie here. She's the true victim of this entire situation. It sucks.
I agree with most of your points, but it's not pointless to try and rationalize it and to be angry, that kind of IS the point. In the game, you have to kill all those people yourself, you have to shoot the doctor, and they want you angry enough to go along with it. Then you reflect on it afterwards and go "oh damn, what did you do Joel"
I agree with a lot of the things you said, except that Joel is selfish. It's not selfishness that drives him, it's the parental need to protect their child. It's natural, it's ingrained, and what the Fireflies had planned was just as fucked up. I liked reading that when the game came out they knew people would be split about the ending, they wanted people to be conflicted. But they also said that not a one parent they knew who had played the game sided with the fireflies. Not one.
The fireflies are a waste of space and irrelevant anyway. Just another version of fedra that needs to be eliminated. They pretty much got what they deserved.
@@Lannisenwell, love CAN be selfish. 100%. I said selfish cuz Joel doesn't want Ellie to die. That's what HE wants. It's not wjat Ellie wants. He knows damn well that Ellie would sacrifice herself for a chance at the cure/the cure (though I'm sure she'd love a chance to say goodbye). Joel knows this, it is kinda why he lies to Ellie. There is def an argument to be made that his decision was partly done so that Ellie actually has a chance to grow and live a semblance of a happy life, and I do kinda buy into that, too. Like I said, love can be selfish. And yeah, I've heard that story from the game's QA testing, too. I do think that it is important to remember: just because parents wanna make a decision for the benefit of their child... Doesn't mean that it is always morally correct. It is understandable, it is justified in their mind... But it doesn't inherently make it right. Often times it can go directly in the face of what their children want. This situation at the end was handled in a very messy way by flawed people. Marlene wanted one thing, Joel wanted the other thing. And no one bothered to ask Ellie. Of course, Joel didn't have a chance. But he gets a chance later on to consider what Ellie'd pick. And he does what he does lol
@@duckducklarry I had an interesting journey the first time I experienced the story. Within the cutscene where Marlene and Joel talk, I was struck by the dilemma. I kept weighing the options in my head. But when Joel and that soldier, Ethan, were alone and Joel just sits there... I made my decision in an instant. I want to save Ellie, fuck all this other crap. And sure enough, I was instantly aligned with Joel's goal. But what I felt wasn't anger. I don't think that's what Joel feels either (neither in the show or the game). I felt... Detachment... from what I was doing. I felt strangely empty and felt as if these guys were just obstacles. I have no quarrel with them, I have no ill will against them. I actually think what they're trying to do, as messy as it is, is noble. But unfortunately: they are in my way. So they will be dealt with, dispassionately. I shot the doctor once in the chest with my revolver, took Ellie, and bounced. I left those two nurses alone cuz they weren't threats. And sure enough, the game doesn't require you to kill em to progress. It is why I loved the hospital massacre scene in the show: it perfectly showed Joel's detachment.
Great reaction ladies! My personal theory about the show is the 6 year old that was euthanized in the first episode by Fedra was also probably immune. (Because how else would a kid that small would have survived that long after being bitten.)
In Marlene's head... She HAS fulfiled her friend's last wishes. She ensured Ellie's safety, she found someoen to look after her (FEDRA orphanage). Marlene was a military target, keeping the baby by her side would NOT be conducive to Ellie's safety lol. But she ensures that Ellie is safe. She also keeps tabs on her. That's all Anna asked of Marlene to begin with: to find someone who would care for Ellie. And she did, TWICE (FEDRA, then Joel lol) Marlene doesn't have that emotional connection with Ellie, tho. Because she never spent time with her, cuz she's too busy fighting for a bigger cause. Marlene's love is broader (utilitarian), whereas Joel's is narrower, and he just cares for the few folks he has. Everyone in the world makes grey decisions, ofc. Marlene has to make one, too. So she will. She will make that hard call. She will make the choice that might result in a cure for countless folks, at the expense of one person. It is not a decision she arrives at lightly. It's not a pretty decision, but I get it.
The whole "would you give your child up in order to save the world" appears in many other stories - it's sort of even at the center of Christianity if you excuse that that sacrifice isn't a real one since nothing is lost. I'm glad you didn't get too hung up on the practicality of it, because it's not the point of the story. Saving the child would be the emotional decision even if the person deciding were themselves a medical expert that could examine the data collected by the other scientists and verify it would definitely work and that it was the only way to do it. On the other hand, the reasonable (albeit utilitarian) decision is likely only possible for someone removed from the situation.
You know what, you’re right. I think we were thinking of it like twinkies or a McDonald’s hamburger somehow lasting for decades without any mold growing on them.
Also, are we to assume that the doctor who’s so eager to cut Ellie’s brain is a neurologist well versed in mycology? I guess they did have 20 years to study mushrooms but do they have actual mycologist on board on finding this cure? The mycologists experts in the earlier episodes killed that hope of cure or vaccine. There’s none. The female one suggested to bomb the city as a solution while the man in the talk show said that “we lose”. And we did have some technology and resources then coz the world hadn’t collapsed yet. I’m with Joel on this all the way. They would kill Ellie for nothing. And Ellie isn’t old enough to “make her own decision” on that matter. She’s guilt tripped into agreeing to die without even the assurance that it would make some good. It was a rushed and careless decision on fireflies’ end. They didn’t even give Joel and Ellie the curtesy of trying to convince them, they just went straight to drugging a child and cutting her brain. (I didn’t play the game btw. idk about other lores and is basing this comment on the series alone)
The science in this episode was weak. The immune system isn’t in your brain. You can find the end products in the blood. Joel was just a shitty liar. He went a little too fantastical. But you are right, he wanted to protector.
Ellie is 14, so she was born 6 years into the apocalypse. Marlene took care of her and watched over Ellie her entire life and did her best to keep her safe. That's why when Reielly asked her if Ellie could join the Fireflies too, Marlene said no, because she knows how dangerous it is to be one, and FEDRA was the safest place. I'm pretty sure they've been doing every type of test imaginable to find a cure for the past 20 years. Trying to recreation what happened to with Ellie is virtually impossible. They have no idea the amount of cordyceps entered her mother's body, how long it was in there before the cord was cut. If injection directly into the cord has the same effect. How many newborns do you think are available and how many of them do you want to experiment on? You don't think Marlene has thought this through and and is only going ahead with this after getting all the info she can and believes this is absolutely the the only way. As Joel said to Ellie around the sheep farming campfire when she asked if it would work, Marlene may be a lot of things, but she's no fool." Joel has been looking out for her and trying to protect her youth as much as he could, almost from the beginning. It's not new, it's just more overt now. And possibly even more selfish. But one of the main reasons he doesn't want her to have a gun, is because he doesn't want her to ever have to know what it's like to shoot someone. That's why he cries and says he sorry that she had to do that to save him back in KC.
The fireflies DID do tests. It is how they determined that the cause of Ellie's immunity is cuz of the mutated sample in her head. The idea is to remove that (which would kill her in the process), replicate the chemicals that the fungus produces and develop that into a vaccine that can be given to infected people (it prob wouldn't work on those who are already turned, esp. the more advanced stages). The fireflies haven't just been sitting around on their hands for the last 20yrs, I'm sure. They were def researching the infection and trying stuff out. Ellie was just the missing, miraculous piece of the puzzle that they needed. As far as fictional science goes, it's pretty solid. Also: in a brutal world like theirs, I'd rather they kill one person like Ellie for a cure instead of going after newborn babies to inject them with mushroom stuff lol I ultimately side with Joel at the end, by the way.
people always think the fireflies just jumped to taking her brain out they did tests lol. the show and game ended the same way a faithful adaptation except one section of fighting before they get to the hospital. players love this game because they are in the story as joel for a majority of the game.
In the game I was meh when it went down. But having my favorite underrated actress Merle Dandridge go out like that pissed me off 😢😂. I flipped sides. Smh. The show had me flipping sides. IYKYK. But **** still did too much. So boooo
I'm not sure if you're aware (or maybe you do and I simply misunderstood your comment), but Merle Dandridge played Marlene in the games, too! She's one of 4 actors who played the same role in both, the game and the show. Merle Dandridge as Marlene Laura Bailey as Female Nurse in Operating Room Phil Kovats as Male Clicker Misty Lee as Female Clicker
Everyone always debates about whether what Joel did was right or wrong from the standpoint of his beliefs vs the fireflies. I think the real issue here is that , in an episode that started with Ellie being traumatized by the events of the last episode, the episode ends with Joel taking away her bodily autonomy. He knows, that given the choice, she would sacrifice herself for the human race, because she is an idealistic child and even said so when they were looking over the city. It all has to be for something. She would choose to sacrifice herself to justify all the "wrong doings" she's convinced she did. Marlene even points out that Ellie would choose to save the world. That is the real reason he kills Marline. Not because Marline could come to steal Ellie away, but because Marline would give her the option and he knows what Ellie would choose. When he tells her what happened and essentially attempts to gaslight her into believing there's no way she could ever save the human race, she doesn't believe him. So, in the end, you can tell she knows that he made the choice for her, and she gives him one more chance to tell her the truth, and when he lies again, you can see the defeat in her eyes. Yes Joel killed the doctor, but that doesn't mean there aren't any other doctors in the country that could continue to try to find a cure. There could even be a doctor that could try other less-lethal ways of find a cure, but by lying, he's destroyed what Ellie chose as her own purpose.
But Marlene WOULDN'T give Ellie the option. And she DIDN'T. She had a chance to give Ellie that choice and she doesn't. That's literally what happens lol And Joel kills Marlene for one reason and one reason only: She'd come after Ellie. He says it to her before he shoots her. What reason would he have to lie to her at that point? Lol Yes, Ellie would DEF sacrifice herself for a cure if she had the chance. Marlene is right. But the Fireflies took that choice from her because they were afraid she would say no. There's no point in asking her anyway cuz they want to fulfil their goal for the benefit of mankind. So if they ask her and she says no... Now they gotta knowingly kill this kid who's gonna be VERY distressed. They had a chance to ask and they didn't. Joel never really had an option to let Ellie choose. He reacted to his situation. But! He IS confronted, point blank, with what Ellie would want. And he knows that Marlene is right. But then he resumes his spree and leaves. And then he lies to Ellie. Ellie's agency, and how she is denied it by all parties, IS a big part of both games.
