"Buddha Before Buddhism": Considering Gil Fronsdal's Title and Translation 

I want you to make a video Buddha's Five Dreams

My pleasure as always, xiao mao! 🙏😊

Yes, that makes sense to me, though it's probably impossible to know for sure!

Indeed so, Steve.

You're very welcome, Mende!

😄 Yes! It is also discussed in the early texts, I did a video on that awhile back: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZTqibLMY1LM.html

Yes, we will find in both the Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachings that any form of clinging is detrimental to progress. It refers back to the ultimate nature that’s always present and should not be seen as something to be ‘achieved’ or produced. Hence the notion of non-duality. I find it incredibly interesting that these very early teachings also seems to emphasize the view of ultimate nature beyond the duality of practice and path. It is as if the Buddha wanted to first lay the foundation of the correct view (beyond all lesser views) before embarking on the enormous project of pointing out all the different (84000?) ways we can reach the goal of non-duality and liberation. In Dzogchen (maha ati) and Chagchen (mahamudra) the practitioner is also firstly introduced to the ‘correct view’, called the ground, and after that is given the instructions how to achieve a stable realization of that ‘view’, which then is called the ‘fruition’. In these traditions a qualified master is transmitting a (temporary) insight into the true nature by means of something called ‘pointing out instruction’ (ngo-trö in Tibetan) where the student temporarily experience the true nature, beyond all (lesser) views. It goes without saying that not all students are sufficiently ready or prepared for such a revolutionary experience and that’s why these traditions have an initial stage of practice called ngön-dro before the pointing out instruction can take place. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I can understand, something similar is being practiced by zen practitioners as well.

Yes they are very neat!

Yes, I'm not sure how much scholarship there is around that influence. It would have been somewhat later than the early material I discuss. The Questions of King Milinda might be seen in such a light, but exactly how that text was influenced by Hellenism is tough to say.

@@DougsDharma I see, yes, thanks for entertaining the idea. There's also an intriguing apparent overlap with Odysseus finding himself caught between the extremes of the 'monsters' Scylla and Charybdis - which he overcomes by wisely/skilfully choosing the middle way between them and taking refuge within the limbs of a fig tree. I find the reliance on the written texts handed down to us when attempting to 'decipher' the true Buddhism very frustrating. I suppose it demonstrates the reason why an oral tradition was preferred quite well! 😅

Erime: What you point to is quite apparent also within the ways Buddhist art developed a few centuries after the paranirvana of the Buddha. It is widely accepted by many scholars of Asian art that there was indeed a very significant Hellenistic influence during and after the era of Alexander the great’s conquests. It is pretty clear that ‘information’ flowed back and forth between South Asia and the European continent. One particular interesting question arise; were the Greeks influenced by the teachings of the Buddha as well? On a side note I may also point out that Buddhist traditional art show signs of having been influenced by other [non-buddhist] cultures, such as, the Persian and the Arabic cultures throughout the subsequent centuries that followed, as well. So, to me it seems fair to say that a significant amount of influence and information flowed back and forth between quite distinctly different cultures in the older days too.

@@freetibet1000 There is a reference in one of the Suttas (sorry that my memory is no more specific) to possibly Heraclitus whose thought on change seems very Buddhist. 'One can never step twice into the same river'' and even Taoist ''In change, things come to rest''. But even Heraclitus stops shy of making the leap to Anatta! Of course, so little of Heraclitus has survived, that there is no way to really know how far he took it!

Hi Smitty! Yes the Chapter of the Eights is wonderful. As to the abhidhamma, it's still in the works, but won't be coming soon. I have a lot of research yet to do, and my books on the abhidhamma are still off being cleaned! 🙏

Thanks Bob. I think there is room to call things "errors" in translations, that said it's often a grey area, and every translation will have its small mistakes here and there.

I have listened to all of Gil's podcast talks. He sometimes talks about possible alternative translations of certain words and how they alter the texts somewhat. He doesn't say that his translations are necessarily correct, he just points out possible subtle differences in meaning. It highlights his academic background (PhD in Buddhist studies)

Yes, compassion is most important.

🙏😊

Yes, best not to get lost in them.

My background is academic and philosophical. It isn’t for everyone! 🙏😊

Oh, this would be amazing - Tamil Buddhism is a fascinating topic that is seldom discussed. In fact, i dont think any western youtube channel has looked at it

@@Nyingmaba the most crucial part of Tamil Buddhism is the epic Manimekhalai Thuravu (the Renunciation of the nun Manimekhalai) by Seethalai Sattanar 2nd century ad and the grammar treatise Viracoliyam by Buddhamitra 11th century ad

A lot of tibetologists quite disagree with and even disrespect the book. Novel approaches in it for sure, such as the linguistic analysis Beckwith engages in, but i dont know if the book is well regarded by people trying to get at the history of early Buddhism But I’d love to hear further discussion of it!

I don't know much about the book but it has not gotten a positive response from the experts I've seen.

I don't know him.

Well sure, I rely on linguistics scholars for evidence like this. Generally speaking there is an understanding of how languages develop and therefore which forms are likely to be archaic. (Also, we have evidence of the early language from the forms in Vedic Sanskrit for example). But all of this is circumstantial and tentative to an extent.

Sure, why not?

Ditch labels!

Life is suffering was not said by Buddha. Doug has made a video about this subject. Buddha taught the end of suffering, the cause of suffering (clinging) and the path to the end of suffering.

Yes, well I'd suggest try it out and see what you think. You may not end suffering but nevertheless find that suffering is diminished.

Certainly some scholars take a similar kind of view. FWIW I wrote a paper awhile back for the Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies where I discussed some of this general topic.

I'm not aware of the Buddha discussing five dreams in the early suttas. Where is this found?

@@DougsDharma ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JLV591J1xNo.html

@@DougsDharma In the Tripitaka recorded his dream: The Five Great Subin Before Enlightenment is a big dream It's a big dream, which means 5 Dreams (Panchamaha Subin) of the Bodhisattva before he got it attained enlightenment as an Arahant, fully enlightened (The commentator stated that He slept on the night before his enlightenment, the 14th waxing moon of the 6th month, but the teacher Some say that there is also the 13th day of the new moon) as stated in the Anguttara Nikaya scriptures. Panjakanibat Phra Suttantapitaka means Bhikkhus, five great things appeared to the Tathagata. Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet Why are there five Bodhisattvas? This mainland is a big bed. The Himawan Mountain is in the left hand. Drop into the ocean on the eastern side His right hand dropped into the ocean on the western side. Both feet dropped into the ocean on the west side. This is the first great subin. appearing to the Tathagata, the Arhat, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva one more thing The grass rose from the Nabhi of the Tathagata Arhat. Righteousness before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva Holding the sky, standing, this is the second great subin, manifested to the Tathagata, the Arhat. enlightenment Before enlightenment, not yet enlightenment is still a Bodhisattva one more thing A group of white worms with black heads climbed from the feet of enlightenment before enlightenment not yet enlightened also a Bodhisattva Stay covered throughout the suburbs This is the third great subin. Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is one more thing Four birds of different colors flew from four directions. fell at the feet of the Tathagata, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva and then turned all white. This is the fourth great subin, manifested to the Tathagata, fully enlightened and fully enlightened. before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva one more thing Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva Walking back and forth on the big Kuta Mountain (but) not contaminated This is the fifth great subin which appeared to the Tathagata. arahant enlightenment before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is look at the monks Article on this mainland is the big bed of Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is in the Himawan Mountain in a furry. His left hand dropped into the ocean. On the eastern side, right hand lowered into the ocean on the western side, both feet lowered into the ocean on the west side This is the first great subin it appears. to show that The Tathagata, the Arahant, fully enlightened, attained enlightenment. that there is no other virtue The verse that Ya Kha rose from the Nabhi of the Tathagata, the Tathagata, fully enlightened and fully enlightened. before enlightenment not yet enlightened is still a Bodhisattva take note of the sky This is the second Great Subin, appearing to show that The Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened The Noble Eightfold Path and well announced as well as gods and humans The worm that had a white head and a black head climbed from the feet of the Tathagata. Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, still a monk Bodhisattva is Covered throughout the suburbs This is the third great subin. appeared to show that A layman, clad in white robes in large numbers, reached the Tathagata as refuge. throughout life The four birds of different colors flew from four directions and landed at their feet. of the Tathagata, Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened is a Bodhisattva and then turned all white. This is a supersubin Verse 4 appears to be a vision to know that These four castes are kings, brahmins, phaets, sudras. ordained in the Dharma and Discipline announced by the Tathagata it made me realize the liberation excellent Verses that the Tathagata is fully enlightened and fully enlightened before enlightenment, not yet Enlightenment is still a Bodhisattva. Walking back and forth on the big mountain ditch (but) no contaminate this ditch It is the fifth great subin, appearing to show that The Tathagata has (rich) robes, alms, senasanas and cultivators. Pharmacist and not obsessed not obsessed There is a normal penalty have the wisdom to strip themselves out for consumption Monks, these five great subins appeared to the Tathagata. Arahant, fully enlightened before enlightenment not yet enlightened, yet The Bodhisattva is Source: Tripitaka, Dharma edition #Dr. Panchak. 22/196

@@DougsDharma Excuse me. I'm Thai. I'm not good at English, I translated from Google.

@@DougsDharma ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k9ZzqK5skss.html This sutra is good.

Yes, probably part had to do with the audience he was talking to.

I did an earlier video on Weingast's book: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-S2XkWDFWbvk.html . That said, I would not want to compare Frosdal's translation to Weingast's in that sense. Fronsdal's is an actual translation, but it has some weaknesses.

Apologies, that was an oversight. I’m sure I mispronounce all sorts of things in fact. It’s no lack of respect, for the record I respect Gil’s dharma teachings a great deal, I’ve enjoyed many of them, and use and recommend his Dhammapada translation all the time.

That was before he became an ascetic. (We also hear he had a wife and children before he left them for a life of wandering.)

@@be1tube I suppose it fits into the myth more than the man that his compassion was unconditional that he could leave such a certain secure life of luxury to find out the meaning of death and suffering. What's deeply ironic and somewhat funny is that even when he knew the reason for people's suffering these reasons led right back around to the place he left.