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Buggy Wheel Repairs & Setting Buggy Tires | Engels Coach Shop 

EngelsCoachShop
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The task of a wheelwright is not only to build new wheels, but to also salvage and repair old, used wheels. Not everyones budget allows for new wheels so the challenge is to bring the old wheels to a point where they are safe to use, while also making known to the owners that they may have limitations. As the adage goes, it is often easier to build new than to repair the old, but while taking in to account the age of old wood, some wheels can be used a while longer.
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Many of you are interested in the tire bolts and rivets I use in my videos. Since I use a large number of these, I do keep them in stock. An email to dave@engelscoachshop.com will get you a list of available sizes and pricing.
In response to a number of requests for the tools and supplies I use here in the shop, I have compiled a list as an Amazon Associate.
I have used Makita tools for almost 40 years, but am not sponsored by, nor endorsed by Makita. Perhaps this list will be of service to you as viewers, as well as provide a means to help support this channel.
Carriage Terminology, a great reference book on the carriage trade history amzn.to/3btATiT
An Interesting account of an early English, Wheelwright Shop amzn.to/39sAICR

The Wheelwright Shop, in Kindle form amzn.to/3bxYOhd
My metal marking pencil amzn.to/2Hu75oB
Metal marking pencil refills amzn.to/3744EDP
The silk scarf I wear amzn.to/2wGqKQf
These are not cheap, home improvement tools. I use tools hard so I use high quality tools. These prove to be less expensive in the long run.
My Milwaukee Cutoff saw amzn.to/2UzoFzx
I use Makita Cutoff blades amzn.to/39gln8f
I have several 4½” Makita angle grinders amzn.to/377snTp
I have several 7” Makita grinders amzn.to/3biF0hP
4½” Flap wheels amzn.to/386TyPy
My Makita cordless drill amzn.to/2OxQZ1e
My Milwaukee ½” cordless drill amzn.to/31BopBB
My Makita 3¼” Electric plane amzn.to/2OBkVcV
My Makita Leaf Blower, revolutionized my shop cleaning amzn.to/2Uywh5d
My Makita ½” drill, very powerful amzn.to/377uEhp
My Bosch Router amzn.to/2OGgWfj
My Baileigh Cyclone dust collector amzn.to/2H3rzEv
The Canon video camera I use amzn.to/2uhj3PH
TWP Wood Preservative, 1 gallon, cedar tone, natural amzn.to/2Sc7Vwv
TWP Wood Preservative, 5 gallon, cedar tone, natural amzn.to/2OFHCge
My favorite work shirts amzn.to/2UFN5ai

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6 фев 2020

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Комментарии : 170   
@rkarins3825
@rkarins3825 4 года назад
Disliked? The only thing in this video is a man with incredible talents plying his skills in a job that he loves - what is to dislike? Only a scrooge with uncontrollable self-loathing would find something to complain about in this clip.
@RobertFay
@RobertFay 4 года назад
Well said, then thank you for that.
@nosadonions3231
@nosadonions3231 4 года назад
Petty people are jealous of others whom have spent there life honing their skills.
@VinylToVideo
@VinylToVideo 4 года назад
"Green New Deal" pushers afraid of horse farts!
@FuquarProductions
@FuquarProductions 4 года назад
@@VinylToVideo Way underrated comment.
@gregorycross612
@gregorycross612 4 года назад
Not long ago I read a comment from one of your viewers that pretty much said, "....hit the thumbs up before watching, ...it's going to be good!" I could not agree more! I found your channel a couple days ago while sitting at home while West Texas was covered in snow and ice. Excellent content and very enjoyable. I have watched most of the Borax wagon videos and will be watching other play lists as well. Great alternative to television! Thank you for taking the time to share your skills with us! 🤠👍
@evanpenny348
@evanpenny348 4 года назад
Thumbs down? Probably just didn't want to see these sort of vid again. Myself I just can't get enough Dave. Thanks, thumbs up, and respect from nearly non covid NZ.
@tayyabsafdar7069
@tayyabsafdar7069 6 месяцев назад
"I think I used long enough rivit" Sir if you use long rivits and then cut them a quarter inch ten times to bring them to size, it is alright for me because I think you are the best one who knows what is best. May God give you good health 🙏 and you continue teaching others with less knowledge of this beautiful art. God bless you 🙏. An apprentice from a far off land.
@tiredowalkin
@tiredowalkin 4 года назад
The old wagons from my grandmother's side of the family are out in the barn, maybe they will be restored someday. There is a box bed, that has a rotted wheel fellow, and somebody had place sickle mower sections in between the fellows as shims to tighten up the wheels. A buggy is in parts and we have seven wheels for it. A spring wagon that is pretty good too. A bastard cousin let them sit in the weather because he was in control and jealous, so they are not beautiful. A primitive sleigh that we put a coat of clear lacquer over the red and green original paint sits in the parlor of our home. We don't have horses to pull this fleet, but just want to preserve the heritage in the family. I love this channel and this shop, would like to visit someday just to get a feel of the magic, but Indiana is a long way from Montana. Thank you so very much for keeping the good ole days alive!
@tiredowalkin
@tiredowalkin 4 года назад
@@EngelsCoachShop ,Thank You and Best Regards!!
@harveypost7799
@harveypost7799 4 года назад
Like watching Thomas Johnson antiques ..watching a man knows what he is doing no BS straight up a master of his craft .mr.johnson said..I actually welcome this morning to get to work see an inlay he did masterfully... Bondo for cars y they call it a car.
@wileycoyotesr8623
@wileycoyotesr8623 4 года назад
Once again, thanks for letting us watch your work. Never have I thought about fast-forwarding one of your video's. I could miss something of interest.
@dannyburriss383
@dannyburriss383 4 года назад
I love watching you work. It’s nice to see old school work that seems to have disappeared
@CharlieEcco
@CharlieEcco 4 года назад
Watching him work has brought tears to my eyes a few times. The dedication of this art stirs emotions im still not sure why exist. I guess it help me understand human evolution somehow.
@kenkarnes9982
@kenkarnes9982 4 года назад
Would love to visit the shop and see Dave work.
@P61guy61
@P61guy61 4 года назад
Two thumbs up. Thank you for posting
@joeromanak8797
@joeromanak8797 4 года назад
Once again, thanks for showing how it’s done. You make it look so easy but we know it takes a bunch of years of experience. Another good job! 😎🦆👏
@jakepogg2733
@jakepogg2733 4 года назад
Most sincere thanks for making these videos,and of course for keeping this incredible old trade alive,and helping keep all these old conveyances on the road! I rarely id ever watch videos,but this was incredibly good,and now re-reading "the Wheelright Shop" will be even more enjoyable. Your great competence speaks for itself,and i particularly admire the fairly humble set of tools that you get by on(and so many look shop-built or at least modified.That takes a Lot of work and care).Love your old LG(can't see if it's a 25 or a 50,those are lovely old hammers).But again,the best part is your cal competence and at So many different phases of that complex trade...Respect,and Thank you.
@PRNadh
@PRNadh 4 года назад
Excellent work 👌
@ao2528
@ao2528 4 года назад
Appreciate your hard work, enjoying every second of it, you have perfect solutions for any type of situation for rejuvenation or restoration, you are more than a master.
@paulstanding7267
@paulstanding7267 4 года назад
Nice repair of the original wheels will last for a few more years thank you for sharing with us all 😀👍
@sdwputnam
@sdwputnam 4 года назад
You sure seem to have so much patience when your working. Never have heard one peep of a cuss word. Good work.
@JasperJanssen
@JasperJanssen 4 года назад
That’s the magic of editing ;)
@hermankrijnen6409
@hermankrijnen6409 4 года назад
Thank you for another video full of enjoyable technical details. I enjoy every video, just to see that craftsmanship still does exist. Keep it up!
@barrysimmons4724
@barrysimmons4724 4 года назад
Good ole Tite Bond to the rescue again... Great job Dave, and once again nice camera treatment as well. Thanks for sharing.
@user-xi3rv3ol6k
@user-xi3rv3ol6k 4 года назад
Замечательная работа!
@merlincovlin4377
@merlincovlin4377 4 года назад
Hardly a repair...! That was real satisfying watching such ambition to go through all the work to do it right!!! Thx fer filmn' it all!!
@johnwaby4321
@johnwaby4321 4 года назад
Great repair 👍👍
@CharlieEcco
@CharlieEcco 4 года назад
You are probably one of few that know the trade, if not the only one. I was wondering how lucrative is your trade.
@stephenrice4554
@stephenrice4554 2 года назад
Those rivets looked maybe a tad long , you could have had a cunning plan for all I knew 🤔 Great video 👍🇬🇧
@clayz1
@clayz1 4 года назад
The company I work at does repair work on industrial machinery. It is knowledge and art form at the same time. I tip my hat to your knowledge and skill which is fine indeed.
@davidweston6653
@davidweston6653 4 года назад
What a privilege to watch this man. A living treasure
@tedsproat6854
@tedsproat6854 4 года назад
Wonderful workmanship as usual. You can always make a long rivet short but you can`t make a short rivet long!
@gregorycross612
@gregorycross612 4 года назад
....cut it off twice and it is still to short! 🤔
@davidchoatesr1976
@davidchoatesr1976 3 года назад
there isn't anything better than watching a master craftsman working
@scottrhoades9056
@scottrhoades9056 4 года назад
Been waiting all week for this!
@davidharris6581
@davidharris6581 4 года назад
Funny you mention that. When I woke up this morning first thing I thought of was I would have one of Dave's videos waiting on me when I got home this evening.
@johnsnoek9112
@johnsnoek9112 4 года назад
Every nut lined up, in line every time, attention to detail ! Lovely.
@unclebuzz6913
@unclebuzz6913 4 года назад
YOU SEEM TO BE IN YOUR ELEMENT.LIKE A DUCK IN WATER ,YOU ARE AT EASE . .I SEE ,YOU ARE "ONE WITH THE WHEEL",OR WHAT EVER YOU ARE DOING .THAT'S THE PICTURE OF A TRUE CRAFTSMAN .I SEE IT LESS IN TODAY'S WORK ETHIC ,THEN WHEN I WAS GROWING UP. IT'S JUST NICE TO SEE YOU AT YOUR WORK. WHEN IT BECOMES JUST A JOB, THEN IT'S TIME TO DO SOMETHING ELSE . IF YOU WERE A "TRAIN WRECK" AS OTHERS ARE,WE WOULD STILL WATCH .BUT THE COMMENTS WOULD NOT BE AS KIND.. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS NOW TO VIDEO #2
@robertinscoe2379
@robertinscoe2379 4 года назад
Thanks for sharing. Don't know why but watching your videos has a relaxing feel to them.
@user-zx5hz9px8x
@user-zx5hz9px8x 4 года назад
تمت استعادت الدولاب او الويل بفضل جهود الراءعه شكرا لك
@williamjacobs236
@williamjacobs236 4 года назад
Another great video .
@fordfan3179
@fordfan3179 4 года назад
Looks great.
@VinylToVideo
@VinylToVideo 4 года назад
I find your videos fascinating. I've subscribed!
@KPearce57
@KPearce57 4 года назад
You could upload every day I'll watch them all.
@bigthumperfoot
@bigthumperfoot 4 года назад
A skilled tradesman at work for sure.
@hafizahmohdrawi5057
@hafizahmohdrawi5057 3 года назад
MacamX yg uncle Dave ini buat... Mahir sungguh dalam membuat.. baiki buggy yang di hantar padaNYA... Mantap lah BOSS KU uncle DAVE daripada MONTANA USA....
@olddawgdreaming5715
@olddawgdreaming5715 4 года назад
Thanks for the explanation, I didn’t think 💭. I will go back and see what I missed. I enjoy your videos.
@frankgaletzka8477
@frankgaletzka8477 4 года назад
Hello Sir I like to thank you for sharing your work with us Your skills are beautifull and it remains me to my grandfather as i say . Thank you very much Good bless you Yours Frank
@duanelundgren7985
@duanelundgren7985 4 года назад
Real Life in the shop!! Thanks, Mr. Dave!
@bigfred1696
@bigfred1696 4 года назад
I really enjoy watching ...your camera work is awesome. Thanks so much for showing us about this trade...Truly amazing....Thanks again
@glencrandall7051
@glencrandall7051 4 года назад
Very nice repair. I thought you would have to replace that split fellow but you showed the way to repair it. Thank you for sharing.
@scruffy6151
@scruffy6151 4 года назад
Well done on the repairing of the wheel's. I learn something again.
@nathanokun8801
@nathanokun8801 4 года назад
You could rivet armor plates in a pre-WWII tank together with rivets that long (and they did).
@fricknjeep
@fricknjeep 4 года назад
hi there real nice thank you john
@dottiehildebrand3123
@dottiehildebrand3123 4 года назад
Love watching your channel. I love to learn your information. Amazing be to watch
@BillB23
@BillB23 4 года назад
I see you're sneaking up on 100k subs. Who'd a thunk it? Your quality of both content and production is consistent. Nice work, Dave.
@telephonevip3610
@telephonevip3610 4 года назад
Great respect from Russia.
@tomtruesdale6901
@tomtruesdale6901 4 года назад
Another outstanding video, Thank you for taking the time to show and explain what you do to create and repair wheels.
@ron827
@ron827 4 года назад
Repair is one thing but repairing someone else's repair is another.
@StanislavG.
@StanislavG. 4 года назад
As one weird canadian uncle would say (and i'm paraphrasing here) - The longer the rivet, the better the job :))
@peterseely9311
@peterseely9311 4 года назад
With those extra rivets, a static balance would be in order, I'm laughing. Imagine a buggy wheel out of balance, eliminate the whopitywhop factor...🤣😅😎...good job Dave, as usual...btw, I grew up Southern Baptist and never once imagined applying scripture to your craft!
@stun9771
@stun9771 4 года назад
Great to see the restoration work...👍🏻
@raincoast9010
@raincoast9010 4 года назад
I said "What, no glue?" and out comes the glue! ha ha Interesting repair, i "wood" have thought it was too brittle to clamp without steaming the fellow first.
@rickbrandt9559
@rickbrandt9559 4 года назад
Trusty Speedy hammer sets rivets!!
@63256325N
@63256325N 4 года назад
Nicely done. Thanks for the video.
@jaswats9645
@jaswats9645 4 года назад
Excellent, satisfying repair work!
@bulwinkle
@bulwinkle 4 года назад
I wonder if we are watching the last of the skilled craftsmen and when you and your like are gone there will be none left to maintain our history.
@rodneywroten2994
@rodneywroten2994 4 года назад
Great repair Mr. Engels
@peternicholsonu6090
@peternicholsonu6090 4 года назад
Noticed you let old rivets fall to the floor. Recent video you used a stick with magnet on the end to retrieve the metal debri when done. Am guessing metal shavings also would fall to the floor. In the past I would say “well they can’t fall any further” and not worry about them till a job was done. Then I got to use a shot blasting machine to scour the surface off concrete floors prior to resurfacing. Inevitably 1mm steel shot balls would escape the vacuum return into the machine and scatter about hither and thither. I used a metal tray with a push handle hip height and with a wheel each end (bit like old push mowers) allowing the tray to be pushed about 3-4mm above the floor. Inside the tray was a long magnet connected to a release lever on the handle. I would push this all over the floor and thereby pick up all steel shot plus swarf if near a lathe then push onto a piece of cardboard. Pull the release handle and thereby deposit them dust free steel onto the cardboard for retrieval. Worked a treat.
@JeanClaudeDepoil
@JeanClaudeDepoil 4 года назад
C'est toujours un bonheur de vous regarder travailler
@arnhemseptember2009
@arnhemseptember2009 4 года назад
Nice to have an easy job once in a while...
@ccswede
@ccswede 4 года назад
I noticed you reused the metal part of the wheel and after resizing and installing you had to drill holes for the rivets. What happens to the old holes? It seems like they would allow water and junk to reach the fellows. Does it matter? Having driven wagons 2 and 4 in hand all this really fascinates me. The wheels for my wagons were made in Montana but I don’t know where. The man that made the wagons is gone. Thanks for your work and explanation of the details.
@markwatson9816
@markwatson9816 4 года назад
6:08 - Probably one of the few owners of a ball peen hammer actually preening a rivet with it. At least nowadays;-)>
@dirk4926
@dirk4926 4 года назад
I always enjoy your videos
@gordbaker896
@gordbaker896 4 года назад
Nice one. You likely know that some 12 point sockets will fit those square nuts and save you some time by using the 1/4 impact driver.
@lwilton
@lwilton 4 года назад
You can also get 4 point sockets. I don't know though that I'd personally be inclined to use an impact driver. Not that many threads to spin on or off, and I'd personally prefer to be able to feel the tension on the wrench.
@gordbaker896
@gordbaker896 4 года назад
@@lwilton The thought was mainly for disassembly.
@gordbaker896
@gordbaker896 4 года назад
@@lwilton The thought was mainly for disassembly.
@alfonsoangel9763
@alfonsoangel9763 4 года назад
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND INFORMATION .. LIKE I SAY WE ARE A DYING NOW HOW....
@richardmattingly7000
@richardmattingly7000 4 года назад
Repairing a split/joint in old wood is more about getting it clean more than anything else so glue can have a surface to bond too and having the patience to let it set often up to 24 hrs for maximum strength. Paint as well as other debris or damage is like trying to weld heavily rusted metal together because it acts like a barrier/containment and it will often fail if stressed. One of the biggest challenges in repairing wood is if it's lost to must moisture because it was in an extremely dry environment and most kiln or air dried lumber still has around 8% moisture content when used. Indeed wood can change seasonally and most musicians will tell you the instruments made with it can sound different which is why they'll carry it instead letting it travel in a shipping container with other luggage. Kudos on taking the time to repair the split instead of just filling/sanding it flat that would of been the first impulse of a novice, do you recommend waterproof or just standard wood glue for a wheel repair and have your tried any Polyurethane Glue/Epoxy instead? 🛠
@rlewis1946
@rlewis1946 4 года назад
Richard Mattingly As my Father would, as in many things, preparation is 90% of the job. R
@singleshot2218
@singleshot2218 4 года назад
Very interesting!
@SingleStacked
@SingleStacked 4 года назад
Hate to see the beautiful wood painted black. Great job, as usual.
@stephenbrown571
@stephenbrown571 4 года назад
Just got notice for video number 2. Barley half way through the first one. LOL 😂
@pierrefouchard6593
@pierrefouchard6593 4 года назад
quelle dextérité...merci
@KG-yn9qi
@KG-yn9qi 4 года назад
Nice work
@tubehound8
@tubehound8 4 года назад
Thank you
@jimharris4013
@jimharris4013 4 года назад
Excellent
@jeffledlow1955
@jeffledlow1955 4 года назад
I have been subscribed now for quite a while and truly love watching what you are doing. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to list some of the tools that you use. I have just one question that I am simply dying to know the answer too. HOW MANY CLAMPS DO YOU HAVE AND WHERE ON EARTH DID YOU FIND THEM ALL? LOL!
@crazymfndude6564
@crazymfndude6564 4 года назад
Inquiry for the knowledge of it but why not use the original tire on the repaired wheel? As always great video sir! I tip my hat.
@Pushyhog
@Pushyhog 4 года назад
that was a great one.
@nigelheffernan3857
@nigelheffernan3857 4 года назад
Hi Dave hope you enjoyed the video I sent to you from Ireland just a quick question about the repair would wooden dowels not have done on the fellow repair as they would expand and contract with the wheel ?
@aubreyaub
@aubreyaub 4 года назад
Funny how the penny drops sometimes. You shrink the undersize steel rim on. Then with all the road work, ie, hammering, planishing, the steel would be stretched, veeery slowly. Just never "thunked" about it before.
@grumpybastard5744
@grumpybastard5744 4 года назад
In this case it looks to me that the wheels have not done much work since they were last re-tyred and it is the wood that has shrunk. What happens with a wheel that has seen a lot of use is that it gets thinner and starts to stretch which makes the rest of the wheel loose. On a big wagon, you know the wheels are getting loose because you can hear them creaking. Once that happens, you need new tyres. Over here in South Australia we were not a quick to mechanise as in the USA and I have noticed that a lot of old wagons have thin tyres. I surmise the owners, especially the farmers kept on with their horse drawn wagons until faced with the expense of re-tyring. Only then did they get a truck.
@MrKotBonifacy
@MrKotBonifacy 4 года назад
@ 4:41 - well, I'd rather use some epoxy-based adhesive than a regular PVA glue. You see, PVA wood glue is a water-based emulsion, which means it sorta binds up at the first layer of "resistance" - as soon as it encounters any water-hungry substance (like dry semi-rotten wood, dirt or dust) the water gets sucked up, the emulsion coagulates, and penetration stops. Epoxy resins are much better at penetrating porous substances and binding dirt or dust - they might be quite viscous, but the have very low surface tension, just like a regular car engine oil.
@davidharris6581
@davidharris6581 4 года назад
Did I see a hammer wedge come out of that fello with the bondo? Seems kind of picky but I wonder if those soft rivets could be blackened with some burnt oil and heat? I know it is probably just easier to paint them to keep them from rusting.
@rogerjohnson6218
@rogerjohnson6218 4 года назад
sweet....looks like the wheels have bing siting.. for some time i see...?
@brw3079
@brw3079 4 года назад
Does anyone else want to blow on the screen when the chips accumulate? LOL
@bulwinkle
@bulwinkle 4 года назад
All of the time.
@suwitomuchtar8862
@suwitomuchtar8862 4 года назад
Im follow with you sir
@TomLeg
@TomLeg 4 года назад
Did you fill in the original bolt holes in the steel wheel?
@davidharris6581
@davidharris6581 4 года назад
I think it was a new tire.
@TomLeg
@TomLeg 4 года назад
I noticed that ... Unfortunately, I posted after viewing the first one
@prdoohan
@prdoohan 4 года назад
I came here to ask the same. I figure dirt and water impacted in the old holes would be counterproductive. Now to watch it actually being done in the next video :)
@nosadonions3231
@nosadonions3231 4 года назад
When you resizes the metal rim to fit the aged wood do you have to take into consideration of the wheel on the other side of the wagon/buggy? Does it cause the vehicle to pull to the smaller/larger side?
@dwighthebert4052
@dwighthebert4052 4 года назад
Do you try to line up the bolt holes in the rim with the original bolt holes in the fellows?
@dmithsmith5880
@dmithsmith5880 4 года назад
You forgot to put the air in it 🤣
@jillatherton4660
@jillatherton4660 Год назад
👍
@larrykeenan598
@larrykeenan598 4 года назад
If you have old Makita batteries laying around check out (www.bluffvalleybattery.com) They can rebuild you batteries at a considerable saving over buying new ones. I use 18 volt DeWalt tools and I can actually rebuild my own batteries with kits that they sell.
@Inimbrium
@Inimbrium 4 года назад
Trying to work out if the country & western music playing in the background is playing in the shop or added in post. :) Also wondering what happens to the old bolt holes in the tyres. Presumably they no longer line up. Do you weld them closed?
@thisnicklldo
@thisnicklldo 4 года назад
Nice repair, always teaching us something. Are the opening and closing shots near Joliet? That looks like a scene out of a Hollywood western, open land as far as the eye can see. Is it open range? Private or public owned? Never been to Montana and unfortunately never likely to, so I'm not familiar with how it looks in the different seasons. It's breathtaking though - whatever must the first settlers have thought when they saw it?
@Mishn0
@Mishn0 4 года назад
Did you weld up the old holes for the bolts that held the tire to the rim? I was looking for the spots but I'm not sure I was seeing them. Also, last week when I saw the second video I assumed it was a re-upload of the first video. I'm glad I checked and was pleased to see that it was a different video. And another bonus this week!
@Rickimusic
@Rickimusic 4 года назад
Yes, I have it figured out now. Weld the old holes, set the smaller tire as normal, then chase through the wood into the tire with the drill bit. Counter sink the exposed holes and bolt her back up.
@dannypgrizzle
@dannypgrizzle 4 года назад
Are you brazing up the old holes in steel tires?
@donniebrown2896
@donniebrown2896 4 года назад
Who else hates Bloomberg ads
@genegoodman5233
@genegoodman5233 4 года назад
Answer, No and thank you Mr Dave
@robertgross6740
@robertgross6740 4 года назад
Do you ever use steam to soften the aged hard wood?
@mergrew0110
@mergrew0110 4 года назад
How much +/- can you tolerate in diameter between a pair of wheels (i.e. Pair of fronts or backs) and still have a matching pair? Some of those buggies must be like my 200 year broom, it's had 50 new heads and 20 new handles and is still going strong!
@mergrew0110
@mergrew0110 4 года назад
EngelsCoachShop. Thanks for that, I must have been unclear with my question, I meant, side to side. I understand that making them from new you will be fairly close, but when refurbishing, you may find there to be a variation. In the examples you showed the diameters changed by a very small amount, but in a more extreme case, how much would be acceptable? I would expect that there is a fairly large, acceptable difference, more so than a motor driven vehicle.
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