But Did It "Really" Happen? | Alex O'Connor 

Alex: but did it actually happen? Jordan: Yesn't

*THERE IS A HIERARCHY OF MEMES*

I live for the day when JP asks "what do you mean by "mean", EXACTLY?"

This kid must be certified brilliant. 25 years old and he's the first one to get JP to give an answer on this?? Crazy.

I'm amazed Peterson kept this and uploaded it onto this channel. Alex basically allowed him to hang himself in this conversation. "That's not my problem." Well, then you have no reason to get annoyed when your listeners are confused af when they hear you talk and consequently write you off as a wacko. Every good teacher knows, if you are interested in people receiving what you're trying to say to them, then you have to package it in a way that they are amenable to. The issue clearly is that Peterson simply doesn't think it matters to people, even though it does. And that doesn't even begin to touch on how, in many other conversations with far more suspicious characters, Peterson seems to nevertheless fit right in. Alex did an absolutely smashing job in this conversation.

Ok, as a former evangelical I’m floored by JP saying “well I don’t think it really matters to people”. Excuse me? It definitely mattered to me. I really believed that all of the clearly non-symbolic stuff actually happened. And those beliefs had a huge impact on my life because I took it seriously. I went into the ministry and later moved overseas to start a ministry because I believed the events in the Bible actually happened as described and it stoked my zeal to serve God. I sacrificed a lot, and I mean a lot, because I believed everything the Bible said actually happened. If I had believed that some of the most theologically pivotal events are symbolism, or archetypes, or what have you, I would have never ever done that. But that’s the point, I used to believe while salvation is a free gift, being a real disciple of Christ is meant to cost a lot. You are supposed to pick up your cross, die to yourself every day, crucify the flesh, and be a servant (slave) to Christ. You have to love Jesus so much that you are ready to die for him. Why would anyone do that if they didn’t believe the events in the Bible actually happened? THAT is why it matters if it actually happened. If you are just a Sunday Christian you have the luxury of this approach, but if you actually want to be the real deal and live like the early disciples, it demands everything of you. Again I speak from experience. People who've never been in the ministry just don't understand the load you carry. When I was losing my faith I looked into this symbolic approach and progressive Christianity but it just seemed like more make believe than fundamentalism. Either shit or get off the pot. So I got off the pot. I had too much respect for that way of thinking to dull it down just because I wanted to cling to something I could no longer believe in. Now I know that a lot of the church fathers interpreted lots of passages symbolically, but growing up as an evangelical it was drummed into me that unless it actually happened, it doesn’t really matter. Anyways, people can believe what and how they want, but I guess still in my mind “real” Christianity actually means believing that when it says something happened, you believe it actually did. That’s why I find JP's saying "I don't think it matters to people" so staggering. Yes it matters a whole hell of a lot of people.

Every time JP talks, it reminds me of when Pinocchio is cornered by Prince Charming and refuses to speak plainly 😂

Getting Jordy to actually answer a question is a sisyphean task. Props, Alex.

Alex is right. Dr.Peterson has a tendency to extrapolate to an extreme degree. When most people ask if he thinks something literally happened, they want to know if it really happened. If he doesn’t know, then just say I don’t know. Dr. Peterson is extrapolating to an extreme degree. It’s useful, and has opened me up religion long after I threw it out. Because he’s talking about it analogously and symbolically, it strikes a chord with me. But his intelligence is a barrier when being asked a simple question by simple people. He sort of answers, no one knows here, at least.

Me, the intellectual thinking for the first seconds of the video that they are discussing the culture of memes😅

Alex is the brightest person I’ve seen amongst all these communicators

“Christians have a metaphysics that’s not Christian.” You can’t end the clip there!!

Appreciate Alex asking him this.

Finally Alex is the only person who challenged Peterson's question where he says "What do you mean if it happened?". It's a straight forward question that implies whether what Bible claims historycally to happen actually happened!

1) I like Alex's super calm energy while maintaining his objective stance throughout the conversation. 2) I find that part laughable where Alex asked Dr. Peterson "But did it happen?" and he responded "Well what the hell does that mean?" as if he was trying to grasp the source of the intention of the one asking that question to see whether the question was meant to provoke him or if the questioner was genuinely curious about the certainty of the historical event. 3) How Alex was labelling Dr. Peterson's responses is the energy I need when I'm trying to be objective with my cognitive biases and blind spots haha

The phrase 'Did it really happen?' has a meaning that is immediately obvious to anyone who uses language as a means of communicating thoughts to others. This is what language is all about. And for this to work, people need to agree on how thoughts in your head correspond to language constructs. If you deliberately ignore this, as J. P. seems to do, confusion arises.

I think Alex was patient in trying to get Jordan to talk about historical plausibility behind the exodus, and I think Jordan needed to realize he was asking that, not asking about how exodus story survived and can be related today. I think alex was very patient to try to get Jordan to talk about the history specifically.

This has been my one hang up with Dr Peterson for years, and I mostly ignore it bc so much of what he says is brilliant. I have to think either he deliberately doesn’t give a straight answer to this because he doesn’t believe it actually happened and that would eliminate part of his religious audience, or he does believe it actually happened and that would eliminate a portion of his non-religious audience. He probably feels that giving a straight answer to these questions is a lose-lose either way and would distract from his core messages. My gut feeling is that he doesn’t believe most of the biblical accounts are historically accurate and I highly doubt he believes in the supernatural aspects such as resurrection and virgin birth. The Pangburn talks with Sam Harris were basically 9 hours of Sam trying to get Jordan to answer these questions directly and he wouldn’t do it. Honestly I don’t think it really matters what his private views are but it is a bit frustrating.

I'm more aware of the things he knows that I don't know than he is of the things that I know that he doesn't know.-JP

Like Norm Mcdonald said: "these stories may not be factual, but they are true"

Please do a part 2, if you think it'd be productive and useful! I'm 26, and I've been watching Alex O'Connor's content since I was 16 and still in high school. You two clearly have synergy and rapport, despite your differing beliefs on religion. I think it'd be a great service for those of us who, in the words of your latest book, "wrestle with God." I never would've considered Catholicism or religious apologetics had it not been for the content that you both produce. Thank you both very much.

Alex and Petersen go very well together, Alex pushes back with proper vigour and doesn't let him get away with little oversteps, (as we all do) But it's just really great lines of thought well executed

Alex is my favourite atheist. I dont agree with him but i appreciate his approach to having a calm reasoned conversation.

He actually gave a very clear answer it’s just he went into other things when finished. He fairly clearly said, “probably according to the historical evidence.”

I really like Alex and Jordan talking about interesting topics like this!

Alex is so cool calm and polite. So far all i see is jordans attempt to evade a straight answer using his usual tactic of trying to complicate the straightforward question.

Love that Jordan has found his favorite jacket for all of his religious chats. He's all in.

Sometimes it boggles my mind that people so intelligent and verbose can spend so much time talking in circles. I'm at minute 13 and they've just arrived at the conclusion that truth can mean different things. I don't understand why Jordan can't just respond to questions about truth in the Bible like your typical everyday citizen would. He obviously knows what is meant by the question, but it's like he tries to be purposely obtuse. Maybe he should just respond to these questions with a deep explanation, rather than going on a rant that confuses everyone. He's making a very important and subtle distinction and then acting like it's the most obvious thing in the world. Dude. People are not going to pick up on that. That's why you're here to teach them.

He won't answer the simple historical question because a man as smart as him has to say no, since it's not possible to make a historical case here, but he's also aware of his massive Christian following and doesn't want to lose them.

Great discussion! Appreciate the distinction between memes and archetypes. Finally articulated what felt like it was missing. Also, the truth vs survival!

@1:32 Peterson doesn't know wtf Alex said. LMAO

Wow Alex is brilliant

The Word became flesh, and dwelt amount us. We got our metaphysics figured out just fine. It’s both and… really not as complicated a you want it to be, but at the same time completely mysterious to us and beyond our comprehension… miraculous. The relationship between God and man bridges the gap between the physical and the spiritual. It also transcends time and space. They are both true, and happen in concert with one another. You can’t have one without the other. Past, present and future.

The thought process both of them are capable of, is amazing. I can see it in their eyes. They are way above my level.

Alex O'Connor is one smart man ! Also good to see Jordan not getting angry and projecting it that ive seen so many times .

Haven't seen much of his content but from this it would seem Alex is really well-spoken. He knows what to push and he knows how to listen.

Alex showed the patience of a saint. He couldn't ask Peterson anything without interruption after interruption.

There's an old saying: "He who wants to obscure the truth muddies the water."

Catholics present the material as actual FACT! You can not question it. That is the main problem I have with religion.

I love conversations like this. Very fun.

This is one of the most important questions to nail down with Dr. Peterson and Alex has done a fantastic job at it!

'Do you think it really happened?' Yes.

Sam Harris said something like this to JBP: "I've been debating this with you for years now, and I *still* don't know what you actually believe..." And JBP still dodged on what he actually believes. And I don't even mind that at all. Call it belief. *Don't* call it truth.

Cant wait 70 years from now when some person hears for the first time about Peterson and goes about looking into him and then is greeted by his suits. Love it!

I absolutely love that Dr. Peterson has chosen to "Wrestle with God". His study into the deep weeds of the text, has really helped me enjoy Christianity again. The world seems to be collapsing into dakness, and these types of talks, help me see that proverbial "Light at the end of the Tunnel"

Very interesting discussion .. thank you. However, respectfully, Dr Peterson should really make an effort to come down to our level, the rank and file and communicate (give and receive understsnding) at that level. Sometimes, simple questions require simple answers (no matter how complicated the subject may be) .. however onerous they may seem to them being asked to give a response.

Such an enjoyable watch. Thank you!

The argument that say Dawkins isn't qualified to talk about religion because he hasn't studied x, ignores the fact that 99.9% of believers haven't either and the vast majority do have a simplistic level of belief.

I'm glad someone is finally pushing him on this. Yes, the archetypes matter. Yes, it applies to this day. Yes, to say whether or not something happened does have nuances. But the promise of Jesus's message is that it is for everyone. Not just the intellectual elites. Not just those who can parse out all of the different themes and nuances while applying them both to the story of the past and the story of the present. It is for even the simplest of simpletons. And to dismiss their question as irrelevant is to miss, in many ways, the very heart of what Jesus has offered

“Why do you think it matters to people”??? 🤦🏼‍♂️ Something either “actually happened in history” or it didn’t actually happen. There’s no middle ground. I’ve always been a fan of your work in Psychology, but this is just embarrassing for you JP. This is the type of postmodernists gibberish you so often rail against. I thought your conversation will Dillahunty made you look silly (God is real because some guy quit smoking) but this exchange in particular has really upped the ante. There’s no historical evidence outside of the Bible (which is the CLAIM) for the Jewish exodus. Props to Alex for trying to drag him back to clarity.

Yes it did really happen. -Paul

Im sure JP had a blast talking to Alex. Hopefully the first of many talks 🙂

Alex's ability to calmly and reasonably debate people is a real breath of fresh air nowadays, compared to the ideologues of the modern day who interrupt and miscontrue what the other person says

There is not a better passage than Romans 1:20-22 to describe this conversation and JP in general. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his visible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

I so badly want J Peterson to listen to R.C. Sproul's "The Consequences of Ideas." Not for discussion, not for content but just for his own personal enjoyment. I really found Sproul's treatment of philosophy helpful for my own understanding of reality.

My favorite part is when a man who can't even publicly state "I believe that Jesus is God" or "I believe in God" generally, then tells me as a Christian what is wrong with me asking a very straightforward question. If every single human conversation went as Jordan thinks it should in his mind, we'd all be standing there with our brains whirling like dial up modems trying to find the best way to ask if we're hungry or not until we all starve to death. It doesn't NEED to be this complicated. Did the Jews historically leave Egypt? Yes. Did the bush Moses heard God's voice through actually appear on fire? Yes. How do I know? The Bible tells me this happened and I have no reason to believe that: 1. it's not historically possible (because it hasn't been proven to be impossible, at the least) and 2. it's not metaphysically possible, because if I believe that God came into the world as a man through a virgin birth, performed miracles, suffered, died, went to Hell, came back, and rose to Heaven, I sure as hell can accept a burning bush. Like come on, man.

To Alex’s point, you have a guy like L.A. Marzulli (known as one of the Godfathers of his niche with ancient biblical history) who actually goes to ancient historical sites and/or megaliths where he SEEMS to collect actual evidence of some of these biblical stories being true/historical. For example, he personally owns multiple elongated human skulls that have been professionally analyzed. It lines up with the giants in the biblical stories. Then he also visits the people groups and learns about the ancient histories around ancient architecture that would SEEM to be far more advanced than an ancient civilization with almost no technology would put that much effort into building/ is even possible for them to do so. Some people groups, like the Aztecs, admit that they didn’t build a number of ancient structures, but they just came across them and chose to inhabit them. Now whereas this doesn’t automatically prove everything, the correlations are ASTONISHING! (In my opinion). So to back Alex’s point here, if Jordan Peterson looked more into this kind of evidence that Marzulli presents in his channel and conferences in particular (which are both here on RU-vid), he might be able to make up his mind on this question for once! Whatever his decision was at that point is his alone to make, but he would be making a much more informed decision on the topic

The layers and depth of assumed meaning that allows us to flow effortlessly through our daily lives is astounding. Which is why we need deep thinkers like Dr. Peterson and Mr. O’Connor to hit pause on assumptions and dive down to first principles. Would be too inefficient and exhausting to do all the time but worth examining still.

Alex is dangerously Brilliant, i'm glad my generation has a mind like his.

The reason this question matters for Christians is because Christians feel concern for the salvation of big celebrities. That’s “point blank” why the question matters to them. And it’s not a bad desire, since it’s born out of desiring goodwill for the celebrity, but often I wish Christians could simply appreciate Jordan for this new branch of psychological theology that he has blessed us with. Peterson has single-handedly expanded our understanding of the Bible from angles we hadn’t noticed before. As a Christian myself, Peterson’s work causes me to praise God even more; to me, it’s a visible synchronicity of God working across time, sort of like leaving His fingerprint on the Bible. And for non-believers it causes them to become very intrigued with the Bible. And Peterson understands that he functions best when he stays in that lane, unpacking the psychological significance. Whether Peterson will ever “believe”, Peterson has made it very clear that it is none of our business, because it detracts from what he’s meaning to tell us. Any orderly Christian should respect him by no longer annoying him with that question and simply pray for him privately. Peterson is already aware of all the reasons to believe; he’s even surrounded by believers within his own immediate family. So, now just simply pray for him, Christians. If Christians want the historical veracity of the Bible to be widely known, there are already many great Christian apologists and also Bible archaeologists. You can make them famous by watching and commenting on their content, and then the RU-vid algorithm will push their content more. But Peterson won’t be that person for you, at least that’s what it looks like to me.

'I'm more aware of the things that he knows that I don't know than he is of the things that I know that he doesn't know. Right?'

It's always suprising how much disagreement simply stems from a difference in defining words. I would argue close to the majority of disagreements overall have to do simply with differing definitions of words.

This makes sense now. People might think he’s still avoiding the question, but he’s not. You can see it when he talks about the word “real” and is very careful to choose the right words. And he talks about truth and articulation being moral imperatives, which to him is a kind of worship. To him, all words should carry the weight of their complete thought. I think what he means is something like this: he does not like to define God in terms that apply to the physical world. When someone asks him that, he’s assuming THEY mean it like that. To him, God is not “real” in the same way a table or a chair is. To say God is would be speaking untruth, the opposite of what a Christian should do. God is not flesh, not bound by spacetime and he’s the source of thought and language, so such words don’t explain him accurately. To Peterson those that try to aren’t truly living up to those moral imperatives and thus he would conclude that he’s more christian than they are. But in times past, in this interview and others, if you ask him the right questions, with a clear respect to his emphasis on language and truth, he will answer in a way that I think answers people’s questions. One person asked him would there be a God if humans didn’t exist. Good question. He responded with he’s not sure how to answer that. Then he’s expressed emotional reactions towards what he deems to be “miracles” such as when he and his family recovered from illness. He knows they are real (truthfully occurring) in a way but doesn’t know how to answer why or how they happen. Then in this interview he expressed that the events of the Bible, as mythical as they seem, are plausible (and in the case of Jesus’ resurrection “likely”) to have a basis in being historic events that actually occurred and are the source of what the myths are predicated on. As a student of Jung and Campbell however, the lessons these stories teach carries more value then whether or not the events occurred historically just as they are written and so his certainty doesn’t go much beyond that and he’s candid that he’s not at the point where he can explain what those things mean, how they happen, and why they happen. If you were determined to categorize him and put him in a box, he could be considered more Christian than a lot of folks that go to church today. I myself have heard churchgoers themselves say the Bible is more metaphor than even Peterson claims here. And these people along with their social circles are confident enough to call themselves Christian. However, if you took the Bible at face value, and looked at how IT defines a Christian. Not just someone who has respect and tries to follow Jesus example’ as best they can but who also expresses faith and confidence that there is a God being who is the origin of humanity and acted through a real Son, then you would consider Peterson something of an agnostic. A hybrid term might also be more fitting. A Christianized-agnostic. One thing seems certain. He isn’t an atheist. This interview will hopefully be a step in the right direction of people knowing the right line of questioning when dealing with this topic with Jordan. Questions like “is God just a product of human thought and innovation or are humans the product of God’s thought and innovation?” “If I time travelled back to the time of Moses when he was a shepherd would I see a burning bush along side him and hear a voice coming from it?” “Do you think Jesus thought it’s enough to believe in his words on conduct, but only believe his miracles as being “plausible”? Awesome interview. Jordan was more clear this time. Hopefully people are able to understand his views better now.

The reason a lot of Christians ask this question is because what they are trying to ask is, _"Is the Bible a verbatim account of past events?"_ Now, you might ask "Verbatim from whom?" You might say "verbatim from those who lived the events." You might say "verbatim from those to whom the events were recent history." But the "yes"es and "no"s to those questions are not what Christians are interested in. They want to know _"Is it a verbatim account from God?"_ Is it "God's Word"? This is also why people ask _"Do you believe in God?"_ or _"Does God exist?"_ Because it's a prerequisite assumption to the above questions. Now, you also might ask what people mean by "believe" or "exist." And what they are asking is "Do you believe that God is a person with whom you will be able to speak face to face some day, just as you and I are doing now?" Is He someone from whom there can be a verbatim account of His words? Because these are key tenets of Christian theology. They want to know how closely you relate to them. Mostly because they love and admire you, and want for you to go to heaven. But also because they think these beliefs will enrich you in this life.

This made me an Alex O’Connor fan

At 11:50 Peterson essentially affirms that he is a mystic (subjectivist) rather than an objectivist. The thing keeping Peterson totally safe from his critics is that he hasn't stabilized the mystical experience. From the point of view of "no self" and a "non-local awareness," he would not find himself as readily in these debates. Sam Harris has pointed both Peterson and O'Connor in that direction. It seems these convos between O'Connor, Jordan and Harris can go on forever, at this rate. What I would be interested in, is 'what happens when Peterson commits himself fully to understanding what Ken Wilber is saying and has said about him. I mean there could be a great opportunity for integration and helping others as well.

Pretty simple stuff, as your faith in Jesus strengthens, it becomes more difficult to deny that Exodus happened. But Dr. Peterson answers this perfectly. From a logical perspective, he mentioned that some parts are verifiable and others, not as much. But what most people tend to do is lean more on one side and completely disregard the other side. But he's clearly paying full attention to both sides, taking the texts for what it is and not forcing his beliefs on the texts. Definitely watching the full episode.

It can be hard to grasp why Jordan doesn't like questions like that, but I think he's right the way he responds.

Trying to get a straight answer from him is like trying to “grab” water with one hand.

I honestly knew this was Jordan’s position months ago, but he articulated it better than I could. I appreciate his honesty and humility to say he doesn’t know but also challenge believers. I hope he finds a more conclusive someday soon.

Alex: but did it really happen? JP: what do u mean by really? what do u mean by happen?

The ultimate crossover episode of the self-help and philosophy RU-vid multiverse.

The answer is no. Jordan does not believe the literal claims to the supernatural of the Bible. He only believes in their psychological significance, their usefulness to society and MAYBE he believes in God, but certainly not in the claim that Yahweh is literally that God and Jesus is literally his incarnation.

Loved this....a good bridge between a skeptic and Dr Peterson's thinking and manner of speaking

JP is a smart guy. Smart enough to not believe in Christianity, and smart enough to know it’ll hurt his $ if he tells his audience he doesn’t believe.

Jordan isnt being elusive he just has a clarity and precision most people cant grasp, so when people ask him a 'simple' question he looks at it from every possible angle and lens. Which is a credit to him and a burden, as it can be alienating and frustrating. So people should keep both sides of this in mind before dismissing him.

"was JFK the president?" JP: "he still is"

Sometimes knowledge isn’t power

Nice jacket, Sir!

I do like listening to both of these guys, but I have a big issue with how intellectually convoluted the discussion is. It is very straightforward to accept that there is a spiritual realm that we can’t “see” or feel, which is where God exists. Beings within the spiritual realm can act and reveal themselves in our so-called “material” realm because their realm includes ours but is so much more. This and the account of the Bible books is the best and most reasonable explanation of our existence and our being. If one wants to say that events in Genesis, Exodus etc did not actually happen then you have to be prepared to believe that Moses, David, all the prophets, Jesus and all the apostles were either deceived or deliberately lying. God is God and He is able to do what He will, where and when He will. I was, I am and I will be …

''Christians that have a metaphysics that's not Christian''. Beautifully said, it is the symbolic and non-literal dimension that Christianity provides that is so interesting and enriching.

For we walk by Faith and not by sight

Defining truth is important

Hi Jordan

3:54 One of the greatest Dr. Petersonisms of all time.

Uh! I've been waiting for this match-up ever since I saw Alex' "Deconstructing Dr.Jordan Peterson" video, which I found interesting, but also kind of "strawmanny". I felt Alex did not fully represent Petersen's ideas, and position, genuinely, and I always wanted Petersen to be able to respond to Alex. So this should be good! I respect both of these fine gentlemen, and look forward to seeing this! Hopefully the full conversation will come out at some point soon.

Alex is going to make one great Christian apologist one day.

The question is not mere curiosity about what Peterson believes. It is a method of determining "are you one of us or one of them?"

"They existed as a Pattern." 💯

JP: i'm more aware of the things he knows that i don't know than he is of the things i know that he doesn't know.

Great stuff!!

All the events of Exodus actually happened

Alex: but do you believe it REALLY happened? Jordan: I DON’T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS! -Jordan Petersonology 101.

This has nothing to do with current video. Your truth, your honesty, has caused me to love you. It's undeniable. Thank you for guiding me through so much. I love you as a comrad, as a father, and as a friend. Thank you for everything.

3:54 This is why I listen to JBP

How much of history can we truly know if it happened or not? We are told that it happened. We are shown literature that says it has happened. In some cases we have pictures that show that it has happened. In some cases we have video that says that it has happened. In some cases we have audio recordings saying that it has happened. But how do we really know that it has happened?

I don't understand the issue with having multiple levels of depth of understanding within the same story. Exodus happened. Literally. AND its also very psychologically descriptive of the human experience. BOTH are true

Yes it really happened. It's just that there's more to it than most people realize

Fantastic subject matter with two masters at debating topics that really matter. I love Jordan Peterson, but when he is discussing theological topics it is difficult for his counterpart to complete points as JP jumps in with his comment/reaction way too quickly. Alex is much more cool headed and genuinely looking for answers, or at least a well balanced debate. Great job though and very challenging.

Alex's constructive analysis is amazing, I would love to have had such clarity of thought in philosophical and theological terms at his age. Jordan, I love to listen to you on many subjects, you have opened up so many areas of human behaviour for me. However, your highly intellectual take on the spiritual involvement of God within man's history and future, seems very, 'sitting on the fenceish'; if you will excuse that expression. Because saying, 'maybe' these phenomena happened, or these are just metaphores to a deeper truth; are dogging the real questions of Faith. Which are the most important steps God requires of anyone in history including now, to take. Did Jesus die and become alive again, and was he resurrected to be with God, and did the Holy Spirit come down to us, as God within us from the moment of repentance and acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ? If you have taken this road over and above your obvious intellectual acknowledgement of them, then your lectures on the Bible would carry far more weight and I believe persuade many to look to Jesus with their hearts. God bless you both on your journey towards the Truth