REGISTER TODAY FOR OUR NEW SYMBOLIC WORLD COURSE WITH JOHN VERVAEKE: The Cognitive Science of Ritual. Live classes start on October 7th, 2024, 2-4 pm EST on the Symbolic World Circle community. This is a 6-week, 12-hour online course. All lesson recordings will be made available afterward and all materials will be provided. The final lesson will be co-hosted by Jonathan Pageau in a Q&A format. All patrons at the Involved tier or higher get a 10% discount; see your unique code at the top of the course page and apply at checkout: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-cognitive-science-of-ritual Join Jonathan Pageau, Jordan Hall, John Heers, and others in Florida for an exclusive, intimate weekend filled with leisure and hospitality. This November event is a fundraiser for First Things Foundation. Learn more: first-things.org/aot
Sir, could you review the WLC V HIJAB DEBATE ON THE TRINITY ON CAPTURING CHRISTIANITY? This is serious for all who uphold the Nicene Creed MONOGENE statement. FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: "To undo the creed is to undo the Church. The integrity of the rule of faith is more essential to the cohesion of a religious society than the strict practice of its moral precepts." All of you are defending a heresy to defeat a heresy. Craig himself states he opposed the "eternal generation" in the Nicene Creed. Cameron applauds and brings on three Zionists, two of which are schismatics and one of which doesn't seem to know what he believes. This is not a victory for the Trinity IF that Trinitarian model denies that Christ is the BIBLICAL JOHN 3:16 MONOGENE μονογενῆ Everyone that agrees Craig won is at least a material heretic while Craig is a formal heretic. INCLUDING CAMERON.
Jonathan was cracking me up in this one. All he needed was a bag of chips. This was great as well as funny. John says he doesn't love his child because his child loves him. That's exactly the point, the Father loves you regardless of whether or not you love him. Your child on the other hand loves you because you love them and show them that love and attention. That is our relationship with our Father, that of children. We love Him because he loved us unconditionally first.
I want to preface this comment with the fact that I love Vervaeke. I relate to him and his hesitance with accepting Christianity. We share a lot, from bad experiences with church and opinions on it. Hell, I've even met the man. This is all to say, John's not ready. I cannot say all this philosophical talk is helpful or detrimental to his salvation, but I believe it will all be to His glory in the end. Who knows, maybe this conversation will leave seeds that lead to John one day falling to his knees and proclaiming that, "The infinite does love me." Be patient with him guys. He is sharpening our swords for us, a most fitting helper. Pray for him.
A blacksmith who works, and maybe the fire speaks through him, sometimes. Maybe, one day, the blacksmith takes the fire, in him. I don't know, but I it reminds me of pentacost.
@musiclover44551 since you’re a music lover I’d like to wager a musical metaphor to share my POV about your POV such that you may see John’s POV from a different angle… Imagine infinity as the conductor of a multiversal symphony at the end of time, enticing those of us playing in an eternal playground of this one Universe, or “one verse/song” playing on repeat while infinite musical multi-versity awaits on the other side of this life if lived in accord with the conductors infinite vision as it aligns with those that see reality as requiring a conductor. Now contrast that with what I’d wager John’s POV experiences the same musical metaphor as being without a conductor standing at the center orchestrating each note in some central entity but rather, distributing that essence of a conductor out into the orchestra of self transcending virtuosos who play as if they are the conductor and the performer of a given instrument (like the body of a professor Vervake who academically structures the same experience albeit without the necessity of a conductor at the center of it all as it would be for theists.) John is a non-theist. Not an atheist. Which affords him far more grace with his approach to the question and mystery of God or Aseity/self existence. Rather than conclude one way or the other, Vervake judiciously and agnostically tip toes through the sacred spaces where fools and fanatics are quick to proclaim the existence or non existence of a deep and abiding enigma that can not be concluded one way or the other… yet! One day, after many conversations like this podcast, perhaps. But it’s still a work in progress and not a settled matter in any epistemic sense. So what I hear from people that misunderstand that the ultimate truth of Gods existence is likely to be a surprise to all but those of non-theistic sentiments such as I just described is: twofold in both directions, a “bless their heart” mentality from theists to atheists as if one day they’ll wise up. And from atheists to theists a type of intellectual superiority of one day theists will educate themselves out of their beliefs like some atheists have done. Neither side can see the necessity of both sides as interlocutors. Dualistically dancing in an eternal mystery not designed to be concluded in competition or comparison but rather in the joy of the dance and play of it all before we leave the playground to enter what is on the other side of infinity behind this suspicious conductor character we’ve imagined into existence. I believe both theists and atheists or believers and non believers are in for an eschatological surprise if any certainty or confidence in their position was ill begotten. I hope my message finds you well and not as an attack or rebuke of anything you hold dear. I just thought it may be helpful to share what I see with someone that says “pray for him/her” about anything as if you already know what the real truth actually is. It reads as disingenuous at face value and I feel you don’t mean to expose this side of yourself but as it turns out; words are confessions in expression of our true form. And much like if you had a piece of since in your teeth while making a profound point in a passionate speech, I’d care about you enough to say bruh you got a lil something in your teeth there rather than ignore it and let you notice it when you get home and wonder why no one told you…
If I don't get at least 6 hours of Paul dissecting this, WITH MANY FREQUENT INTERRUPTIONS! ^^... I may or may not riot. Probably won't. But no promises! ❤
Yes! The grouping I’ve been waiting for! The 3 of your have played a role in my profound reversion to Catholicism over the last 4 years. I can’t think you enough for inspiring and articulating the faith I’d allowed to go dormant. So many opening to the power of ritual, symbolism and ancient wisdom - and the reason found there in. These are amazing times. Truth, Beauty, and Goodness prevail. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Have been in deep grief. Can attest to the love of God in that space. Jonathan’s elaboration of the retention of the personal in relationship with Christ is so vital.
I just had to say that John is always a class act to really come at this stuff and try and break it down, only to end up strengthening it. He always tries to be respectful especially to the possibility of finding higher truths in dialogue with people. I love his intellectual honesty and rigour it’s truly admirable.
This seems like the conversation that Jonathan and John have been creating the groundwork for over all these years. It is also the conversation I have been having internally over all these years. I have found myself moving slowly from John’s position closer to Jonathan’s. Thank you, I found this extremely beneficial.
The image of myself when listening to these conversations is being on an inner tube connected to a boat. And these guys are just enjoying themselves on that boat. Meanwhile, I’m barely holding on😂 It’s always so exciting to listen, learn, and engage…I’ll admit I’m a bit guilty of only watching the YT videos and need to get out in the community a bit more. That being said, I’m tremendously grateful for these conversations. They’ve brought me back to Christ and have modeled a way of dialogue that we no longer see today. Thank you all 🙏
I don't think you can reason your way to Christ by the brute force of your intellect, for that is an act of pride. The door is opened through an act of humility.
Relevant advice for me, I think. I've been coming to that realization on my own, but what's still stopping me is the fear of putting my life in God's hands. It seems like part of the "deal" is accepting the possibility of ANYTHING, including infinite suffering, and the only reassurance is that whatever happens, it is part of God's plan. I've been at the door, so to speak, of surrendering, but that fear grips me and I can't beat it.
@@Squashmalio Its the middle ground that is the most dangerous. The only God that you should recognize is the one that acts not out of pointless cruelty but of mercy even when suffering is permitted or dispensed. Even in the face of suffering that's to whom your prayer should be aimed at. If you don't accept that, you only have the suffering.
Interesting comment from someone using the Yin Yang symbol as their profile although the symbolic meaning of the former is a perfect symbol I love my fellow brothers
@@Squashmalio “Then the disciple Jesus loved said to Peter, “It’s the Lord!” When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his tunic (for he had stripped for work), jumped into the water, and headed to shore. The others stayed with the boat and pulled the loaded net to the shore, for they were only about a hundred yards from shore.” John 21:7-8 NLT Earlier his gospel, he tried to walk on water as Jesus did. he try did it in his own strength and started sinking. In this moment, after Jesus Resurrection, he sees Jesus while he’s naked, which is a reference to Genesis and puts on his clothes. The next thing he does, he dives into the water, to meet Jesus. Sometimes we just have to dive in the water is frightening and terrifying but it is the thing that renews us. I can tell you is a terrifying thing to do, but it is simultaneously the most meaningful thing you can ever do. At the end you’re gonna end up dead anyways so might as well live the most exciting life you can and if you do that well you get to live that exciting life forever and ever. All you need to do is dive in.
As someone who is trying to engage in Christianity (and the World) in the most optimal way, this conversation was gold. 'What is the Grounding of your Christian Faith?' 'Suffering is Intrinsic AND Meaningful' 'Grief that is DEEPER than your Faith.' The relationship with Christ as reciprocal opening. When you're in Communion, when you engage with the Eschaton, YOU're not in Regular Time. Something John said: 'I may be Asking for something that I can't ultimately get.' This is the sticking point isn't it. This is what matters to me. Because with Christ, I no longer 'ASK' in the same way. Thank you thank you thank you for this. I hope to see this trinity of persons again. God bless
Jordan's question: "Does it care about you?" is right on the money and summarizes this whole discussion. John is caught up in philosophizing about the One, the Many, relationality and all of these ideas, but the Christian God actually IS personal. Jesus Christ is a person. That's the entire point. And being in an actual relationship with this personal God is what affords us to become deified and live eternally, as persons and that's entirely different from just engaging with an abstract impersonal "ultimate reality" as John calls it. And the essence of the difference is love. That's why John got defensive when asked if "the infinite" loves him, personally. His answer was "why do you care?". Well, there you have the difference. If you're indifferent towards the love of "the infinite", then you're not really in a personal relationship of love with it, it's an abstraction for you.
John himself has grown through a personal relationship with God, he knows this from within. This is something he has learned to utterly reject. That's why he is defensive on this.
John's argument reminds me sort of a watchmaker Deism; agentic beings acting in a clockwork universe. I myself am lost at the conceptualization of a "personal" relationship with Jesus/God. I've heard various explanations but none were very satisfactory.
@@joe42m13 in my opinion, the only satisfactory explanation to "having a personal relationship with a God" is found in the Indo-European ancestor cult and hearth worship, heathenry, "paganism" of sorts. It seems more plausible that you could have a kind of noetic loving "personal" relationship with an ancestor that you could trace back and have a more concrete "tangible" connection.
“For years in my studies I was satisfied with being ‘above all traditions’ but somehow faithful to them... When I visited an Orthodox church, it was only in order to view another ‘tradition.’ However, when I entered an Orthodox church for the first time (a Russian church in San Francisco) something happened to me that I had not experienced in any Buddhist or other Eastern temple; something in my heart said that this was ‘home,’ that all my search was over. I didn’t really know what this meant, because the service was quite strange to me, and in a foreign language. I began to attend Orthodox services more frequently, gradually learning its language and customs…. With my exposure to Orthodoxy and to Orthodox people, a new idea began to enter my awareness: that Truth was not just an abstract idea, sought and known by the mind, but was something personal - even a Person - sought and loved by the heart. And that is how I met Christ.” Fr Seraphim Rose
I love John Vervaeke. He teaches us all to think and converse. The philosophical Silk Road project sounds like a beautiful gift to Christians who are willing to participate in good faith
John, I formerly inhabited what I believe to be approximate to your worldview. I came from a Protestant background. I am now an Eastern Orthodox Christian. Jonathan had a profound influence in this process. I was formerly into Neo Advaita Vedanta, but studied Zen and Watts and Krishnamurti, did psychedelics etc. I love you very much and am going to do the dubious act of putting a poem in the comments section of a RU-vid video. I think you should read, “His Life is Mine” by St. Sophrony of Essex. The key unmentioned aspects-repentance, the Saints and the Church-the body of Christ. Here goes: DIE BEFORE YOU DIE The things that you have are not yours To have, at least, not in any permanent Sense. Have you forgotten? You were brought into being by Word and Breath. Who brought you, brings you here to read this? You lay claim, you have been given The ability to do so. To whom do you Relinquish? To whom do you give thanks For the mere fact-being. A part of you doesn’t want anyone for this. This part pulls down, rends asunder. The whole of you yearns for Him, His Perfectly unified diversity-love-the end All things that begin begin for. A part of you doesn’t want a face To face. This parts wants nothingness- Loneliness without host-that invisible Throne in an empty room. The whole of you is already hidden In Him. You must put to death the part of you That refuses to be found.
I loved Jordan Hall's episode, but I think Vervaeke's addition was so needed! It's beautiful to see the increased precision of argument happening in real time. Thank you!
Also, the quality of genuine friendship among you makes for better questions that allow for challenge without the perception of threat. John would never ask "why does it matter to you?" without deep respect and relationship with Jordan.
This was something I noticed too. John is rarely ever confrontative like that with anyone. But the friendship turned the phrase from something hostile towards something explorative.
So much affection for the 3 of you and the beautiful way it all rounded out at the end. The point that Jonathan and Jordan were making kept bringing me to tears. To know I am loved by God ; it just totally flaws me. The way that love rushes into the hidden parts , the shame filled parts of myself ..it’s so personal and lights me up. Thank you all so much ! Blessings.
What a fabulous discussion. I had to keep pausing to look up words 😊 but I must have crossed myself so many times during the conversation as things came to light from Jordan and Jonathan. Thanks very much.
Heavenly Father continue to protect me and my sons. As a single mother things are hard on me. Both of my sons are special needs. I’m overwhelmed because I’m struggling to provide the necessities for them. Give me strength as I struggle to pay my bills each month because I’m tired. Lord get me through this in JESUS NAME! ❤️ ❤️
How is it us fathers can help such a mother ? Lord rain down your blessings upon your daughter and her children that there is not a big enough store house to hold the blessings and strength Amen .
Christianity is unique in that it is not purely monoadic (islam, platonism, Buddhism) nor is it pluralistic (paganism, Hinduism, new age). It is trinitarian. And only in this framework can you have the idea of a person. One who is both distinct from all others but can also love others. We are not the same person (as opposed to monasic thought) but we are also not fundementally divided from others (pluralistic). This is unique among Christianity in the entire world.
I’m so excited for this discussion. Grew up very Christian, got into meditation in my 40s and started seeing the value of eastern traditions and studying them more. I believe they also are great pointers and at the core say the same things as Judeo Christian traditions. I don’t see any of the religions though as being the ultimate pure truth, mostly just pointers back to God or source or whatever. But I do still have a hard time with how many of the people who teach from the eastern perspective act like this life and all thoughts are just nonsense and don’t matter at all… they act like life is an accident that never should’ve happened.
Some of them act that way. Some of them act as if mortality is a “trap” fueled by “rebirth”. Which it’s possible that could be the case. Jesus and Socrates also both spoke of rebirth. Are you familiar with the Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant?
Lol that eyebrow raise by Pageau in the intro when Vervaeke responds "why does that matter to you?" Such a telling response. Just beautiful. Looking forward to watching the whole thing.
@@l.sophia2803 I have metaphorically been to the top of Mt Kailash, literally been to Eiheji monastery, and made pilgrimage to Patmos and Delphi Been there, done that. I encourage all true seekers, regardless of what deity manifests to you.
Wow! I think I understand about 30% of the conversation but I still loved it. Gonna have this one on repeat because there were just so many golden nuggets dropped from everyone. Thanks for this talk.
I laughed and cried and wondered and gave thanks the whole way. And - - "we can't be meta." Thank you gentlemen: the Holy Spirit was here with us today!
"May the Lamb receive the reward of His suffering. (starting with me)". The joy set before Him on the cross was the reward of His re-unification of the Bride and the Bridegroom. Joyful Connection + Holy Communion = Divine Union (at one ment with God). Good talk :-)
When Jordan said the ultimate reality must also include the completeness of loving you back, I thought to myself, but if it's the ultimate completeness, then it must also include incompleteness by definition, if not then we fell into the problem of duality (complete vs incomplete) again. Then Jonathan just dropped the biggest nugget that completely healed the divide between Jordan & John: "The ultimate reality loves you back through the chain of love, that is everything around you" 🤯 that's it! The completeness that includes the incomplete!
Oneness is itself an Escape. Meaninglessness is itself an Escape, so whether it is the meaninglessness of the Zen riddle, or absurdist western philosophy, or individualism, or the ontological insufficiency of a mathematical explanation, the system itself kills in proportion to consistency with it. Trinitarian thinking by contrast brings life with consistency and meaning, best described as fruit
Agreement is the participation trophy. If you’re not wrestling with these issues at depth, and instead are simply looking for affirmation of the superiority of your beliefs you’ve totally missed it. This is especially true if you’re a Christian.
If Christianity still had the Messianic Feast, the answer to "Why Christianity?" could come down to Earth in a hurry: Because we eat bread and drink wine and listen deeply to one another, face to face, every week.
This comment is partly for John. I think what also speaks to me about Christianity is the utter beauty/sublime/terrible aspect of what came up at around 58:00 when Jordan is talking about parental agape and god's agape for creation and his suffering for the suffering of creation. The magnitude of it is awe-ful. And it has an undeniable beauty that speaks a kind of truth to me. It reminds me of when (and pardon me if I don't get this exactly right) in the past you've said you'd rather cease to exist after you die, because of not wanting to face all the past suffering that you may have caused. Imagine what it would be like for god. There is an incredible price of self sacrifice for existence.
the question would be for John V: does Christ fulfill the ideals of Buddhism? Does Christ fulfill the definition of "logos made flesh" as you would understand such phrase? If so, then I think there is agreement. Point #2: the thing about Christianity missing in John V's system is WORSHIP. John V's system is an amazing exploration of the paths towards enlightenment. I might be missing something but I wonder what he would think about the concept of worship. In my opinion Christianity places a greater emphasis on worship than other traditions and this has the effect of bringing a community together towards a common ultimate goal, which is important.
My concern about such discussions is that they're too esoteric. You shouldn't need a degree in philosophy, theology, or cognitive science and an IQ above 120 to be able to engage meaningfully in the topic of religion. Buddha and Jesus didn't speak in the language of modern science and metaphysics, and they didn't need to. Yet, their teachings remain just as relevant today. A complete religious system (the "primordial map" that Jordan referred to) must be accessible and intelligible enough that even a child could understand it. It seems to me that conversations like these tend to get lost in the weeds, where we're likely to encounter snakes that tempt us into thinking we're cleverer than we really are.
If Jay could keep it truly civil I think it would be an amazing conversation. If vervaeke could get his head around things, I can imagine it would make it easier for it to reach into his heart.
As great as Jay Dyer is at explaining the ins and outs of the Orthodox faith he really does seem a bit hard headed when it comes to pedagogical conversation. He's too prone to debate as a zero sum game which is a shame because he really is an incredibly mature man and could be a great figure when it comes to teaching the faith to the most rebellious of unbelievers.
Faith for a Christian is obedience to that which they trust, whether by direct experience or trusting others who had, in the end trust requires reason of reality from experiences.
KENOSIS of CHRIST is the setting aside the power and Glory of the Divine Logos so that Christ's experience and triumph is Fully Human. To correct the Fall of Adam (Man) could only happen by a Man but there is none worthy so God necessitated His Incarnation as the Second Adam.
There’s a sense that if the mysteries of God were fully revealed, they would be intellectually compelling and immediately convincing. Yet, there’s also a sense that such a revelation would be overwhelming and unbearable, especially for those less acquainted with grief. The question then becomes: If you could you live up to it, would you even want to? Would you be truly happy living that law? God invites you to experience the ultimate joy and happiness that He knows, but it is not hedonic pleasure or pursuit of limitless power that attracted Lucifer. Ultimate joy includes sacrifice, service, and suffering-because love cannot exist without them.
I only just found out Jordan Hall became Christian, so this was right on time. Can't help but feel vindicated in my own journey when one of the biggest complex systems eggheads arrived at the same kinds of conclusions!
I have learn the lot from John Vervaeke over the years and his insights are quite powerful... His questions are always deep and probing and provocative bringing out the best in Jonathan and in this case Jordan as well... Having said all that there's still remains what appears to be a deep deep wound at the heart of Vervaeke from his negative experiences with Christianity as a child and an almost desperate quality in many of his arguments. Jonathan does not proselytize and neither does Jordan from what I can tell... I get the impression that John is fighting demons he doesn't even know he has... Perhaps it's the source of his entire project. Regardless, I'm grateful for these conversations
As a long long time follower and fan of John's work, I definitely feel like he is somehow stuck. stuck in some kind of mode of understanding which is impairing his ability to understand. It certainly feels more debate than rich dialogos. To quote john- "Sometimes prior expertise in one area can interfere with your ability to perform in another area."
I’ve thought similar things to Jordan’s thoughts on parenting. A good parent can’t make the world completely safe for a child, or the child is stunted and sheltered. In the same way, the possibility of suffering/evil in the world and striving and ultimately individuality and character, allows us free will and to come back to God as our Father
Still, that all could have been avoided had the serpent never been created or allowed into the Garden. Under current US law, If a parent foresees a child walking into mortal danger and fails to act, it’s called neglect.
1:28:53 Wonderful discussion! But it seems to me that once again Christian Universalism has been misunderstood and therefore misinterpreted. And to say that DB Hart is syncretistic is (I believe) to misrepresent and summarily dismiss him. Furthermore to say that Christianity doesn’t believe in a time when ALL will become Christian (implying there will not be universal agreement that Jesus is Lord in the eschaton) is just not accurate either. I love and appreciate each person on this panel- I’ve learned so much from each one in their own way. But as SO many of the early Fathers attest to- the day WILL come when “every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus IS Lord, to the glory of God the Father” ❤️
I'd love to hear John dialogue with the philosopher Esther Lightcap Meek on this subject. Her book Loving To Know, while focused on epistemology, has a lot to say that is pertinent to this conversation.
@@leondbleondbChristians who engage in his project have already lost the plot. You don't see true, rigorous, non-ecumenical Orthodox Christians engaging with him. People like Jay Dyer ain't having any of it, and rightfully so. The Christians who engage are either soft or spooks, or both.
Everything broke down into nonsense when Vervaeke decided to say that God can’t be a person. There is no bridging the gap for Vervaeke as long as he has these solid stone walls against basic Christian doctrine.
It should be stated that the eschatological vision of Nondualism (Advaita Vedanta) being referenced here - 48:50 is not the all encompassing vision found in dharmic religion and should not be used over and over again as a refutation of it. Being and communion within god while retaining identity is found within mainstream and orthodox? Vishishtadvaita schools. While I agree with Jonathan in many aspects here let's get past these memes of dharmic religion is reduced to "drop in the ocean of Brahman" language.
"when you have an experience of profound grief, utterly shattering, well beyond maps, deeper than your faith, and you notice that there's something there, that you're not alone in that grief." This was my experience. Very hard to communicate, well said.
I really do believe that the work of A.H Almaas approaches a resolution to a lot of the dilemmas that people face in these kinds of discussions. The secular meditators don’t quite grok Christ and the Christian’s think that emptiness implies nihilism.
Christianity guides one to bear life's burdens while immersing deeply in the world, all the while remaining aligned with God's will, cultivating a personal 'I-Thou' relationship with the divine. In contrast, Buddhism reveals our true nature as divine by transcending the illusion of duality. When these perspectives are combined, one can fully embrace the profound depth of existence, along with the boundless joy & play of life. This fusion allows a person to accept both their finite human limitations and their infinite cosmic identity, participating in the beauty and tragedy of life they wear both a tear and a smile.
@Jonathan Pageau @John Vervaeke Someone may have already suggested this, but David Bentley Hart's essay "Waking the Gods" from his book You Are Gods would have been helpful in this conversation. I'd love for John Vervaeke and DBH to have a conversation....
John V. and Jonathan have each posted so much content it's hard to be certain, but I don't recall DBH coming up in a substantive way in their online conversations. Have either of them ever seriously discussed his work?
@@christopherroberts7472 Both have mentioned appreciating Bentley Hart’s work, but have never discussed it substantially. However DBH HATES Jordan Peterson and is therefore unlikely to collaborate with Peterson’s collaborators. A shame.
