This is my experience as well. The d/a conversion plays only a very small part in the ultimate sound. It is the analog output stage that makes the biggest difference and not much has changed over the years.
True. Good design comes first. Look at Audio Note UK. Their DAC’s and most of their products in their portfolio are long time running products. Maybe the longest in the industry. Their AD1865N based 2.1x signature DAC easily compete with the modern Dacs if your goal is musical satisfaction. This is not mentioned to start a debate about subjective or objective things about Audio Note , this DAC of DAC’s in general. Neither a promotion but more a supporting example to Mike’s point and statement that good design matters and goes a long way.
@@OCDHIFiGuy You mention Wadia. My friend who died left me his old Wadia dac. He got the dac used for $400. But I really enjoy listening to cds on my Philips cd recorder that makes cds have the warmth like records. I also like my old Nakamichi receiver with a Nelson Pass designed Statis circuit. All these damn dacs on the market is confusing audiophiles.
I bought into buying an Aune MagicDAC after 20 years, and when I saw a review of the different opamps it solidified my stance. People are paying $1000 for these high end DACS, that have a $2 OPAMP upgrade. Like you said Mikey, the parts used are key, and people are getting hosed. BTW, the DAC in my 25yr old Yamaha CD player is WAY better then the DAC in the Aune... because of circuit design. Case closed!
I love your videos Mike, and I agree with you on most things you have to say about audio and the industry. That being said, I own the PS Audio DSD DAC, and can tell you each free software update was not merely a different flavor, but a genuine overall improvement in the sound of the DAC. The biggest improvements were a lowering of the noise floor which allowed one to hear more subtle details and spaital cues that were previously obscured.
I thought quality dictated that when a product was released for sale that it's best design had been realized and that best design was made available to the purchaser the first time not several iterations later. I don't buy INCOMPLETE OR INFERIOR DESIGNS
It's great that they are still thinking of how to make their DAC better. Paul and Ted are always learning about Hi-Fi and therefore implementing that knowledge in a firmware or hardware module does speak mountains in that they were always thinking ahead without completely starting over with a new design.
@@davidcross890 I guess PS Audio could've come out with brand new models of dacs, as they refined their product, instead of offering free firmware updates.
Thanks for watching. The Perfect wave is a decent enough DAC. Good for $3500 which I think was the Underwood Wally street price. It's just my humble opinion that there's better out there and they have been learning how to make thier DAC better. So if you love it keep it. If it's not a money thing then it's not hard to beat that DAC. No Disrespect meant whatsoever.
You are the true voice of audio. Glad that you include used gear recommendations as well as, soon to come, different price points on new gear. It’s not necessarily if people have the means to spent whatever, sometimes people want great audio, and a Ferrari. Love your channel.
Older DACs have great analog sections. Why they sound great. As you said, now they market new tech or some chip that offers the lowest noise floor. You don’t need to go that low. And they have no one to design a great analog stage or power supply.
Well, there have been several upgrades for the Playback Designs 5 series throughout the years. Squirrel food from Playback down then?? I guess not everything is black or white in this world.
I don't recognize the 5 series as a viable option at all. It does not exist for me. Playback did not hit Gold until the Dream Series and Edelweiss series. The 6 makes the 5 Obsolete in my opinion. They are that different.
I’m still using a Benchmark DAC1 hdr in both my systems. I tried the Benchmark DAC3 but discovered I didn’t like it as much and realized that it was the preamp section of each which led to my preference.
@@connorduke4619 Hey Conner, are you being facetious? Don't tell Mikey we even discussed this. To answer your question: I don't know. I would have to pop the hood as Denafrips doesn't brag about it.
@@connorduke4619 you are actually totally correct. A FPGA does come before the R2R array in every circuit. Denafrips is an example of a "new guy on the block" from China. They copied OLD MSB/Rockna and if you simply bought an OLD MSB or Rockna Wavedream you'd have something more valuable...
Hi David, my point is to NOT think a certain architecture is better than another. It's simply not true. You should judge your favorite DAC on sound not architecture.
Heyy buddy I really really appreciate that because I am looking forward to doing this I recommend trying out the dcs DAC line up or the msb technologies the reference dac or the select dac
I Owned rockna signature and evaluated dcs Bartok and chord Dave at home. The most pleasure and long listening sessions I get from AD1865 with simple tube psu and tube output. Miles more musical and emotional than any of above. Especially for music recorded till 1990-2000
That's great. Hard part about tube output is getting a clean square wave on the output. Real life has quick transient response, but tubes do not. So a good SS DAC is my favorite, it's just very very few are on the "level" I like. But once you own a great SS DAC, you'll forget all about tubes. But yes, some tube output stages are very good, just not for me.
9 out of 10 times AKM implementation clearly sounds more organic, musical, and soulful to me than other delta sigma designs. That’s just my experience with the “chip”.
@@OCDHIFiGuy btw, you are providing a wonderful service and knowledge. you've managed to condense what I experienced/learned in this hobby over 15yrs in a few videos. Many thanks for creating your content. cheers from Mississauga, Ontario!
@@OCDHIFiGuy I do like that sweet cream in my coffee Hey I'm weak and l love it!! Good vid on the various kinds of Dac's out there I know Exogal took a different approach to Dac design
That was great. I’m a low fi guy with a node and was just going to get a better dac. I know exactly what your talking about feeding the squirrel! Halarious. Guys on the forums are obsessed with chips. Excellent video.
Absolutely agree, actually, the latest technology is not used in actual "high-end" DACs. The first step for god DAC is power supply. If DAC reacts on the power cord it is rubbish. If you look on MSB website their flagship model, shows photos of power supply sections. And you can see regular oversized PS with a standard bridge and a bunch of capacitors that cant provide more than 18 bits of Dynamic over the noise that they inject into the system. Does not matter that they have 32bit R2R section, it does not work and react on a power cord, so your buddy Jay needs to spend thousands of USD on the power cord. And new technology exists, but they making money on old ones.
I have APL DSD AR dac - awsome dac for not so crazy money , all PCM files plays in DSD. You dont talk about it at all. Some say it smashes all gears up to 10000 $.
@@OCDHIFiGuy You are the only one , that could compare them , but I doubt that you have an interest. I think Alex was the boss from Andreas at Sony. So the algorithm for converting to DSD must be the same. Alex and Andreas are the kings of this business , also the boss of Rockna and they are developing for many hi end companies.
Wadia 27ix. Simply a killer from 25 years ago. I'm sure it would stand up to the best today and wish I would never have gotten rid of it. Proves your point.
I presume all of the Playback Design products share the same design principles (which you’d slap me for suggesting) and the same sonic signature (which you would likely agree with). True?🧐
Best shortest direct cd player dac circuit ever made are in sony's last ever cheap D-JE 011 / D-JE021 personal cd Walkmans. The most analogue sounding cd player your ever going to hear. Plug them in to a top notch resolution amp/loudspeakers, and they will not be subjectively digraced on sound quality for the money grounds. As long as your preamp or active loudspeakers is at least 0.7 volts sensative, it was the best bang for the buck ever made for music enjoyment. Yes they are made of cheap plastic, but sound quality for the money when sony stopped making them at £25 UK pounds was a real bargain when plugged into a headphone amp system, or a full spectrum audio monitoring rig, with the Sony having a neutral full range sound. People may laugh, but for the money they could not be beaten. I still use them today, no need to analyse the music, just enjoy the music, and that is what it is about. No you don't have to spend a fortune to enjoy music or some musical quality. ( Just use a high quality AC to DC power supply, the ones with thicker cable, and rated at least for 5volts, and at least 2 amperes for the sony personal cd Walkman ).
My Marantz HD-DAC1 is the best DAc I’ve tried over the years. Not cause it’s mine. I really wanted to like something else but never happened. Tried a Denafrips Venus II and didn’t like it at all. Topping sucked ass the second best DAc I’ve heard was the benchmark DAC3.
25 yr old Aragon D2A2 R2R dac is a great sounding dac but literally chokes on any input above 16/44. Dedicated CD dac, need something else for streaming.
Thats cool ! I listened to the latest top of the line DCS Vivaldi stack yesterday and I would not use it even if it were for free.. Vinyl sounded better on the same system.
@@OCDHIFiGuy It usually does, the question is what DAC gives you the best sound in your system when you CHOOSE to play digital, and in my experience the dCS stack is one of the best around.
Hiya Mikey, firstly can I say your friggin awesome dude and the reviews and advice you give is priceless. Thank you. My question is I have the Pontus 2 dac and I love it. It's transformed my hifi and for 2k I can't fault it. They have just recently updated the firmware and I haven't noticed a difference. I know your opinion on chi fi and won't to know is your opinion still the same and have you listened to denafrips stuff. I'm not a rich guy but for 2k it suits me fine or could you recommend anything else for around this price range. Cheers Mikey, love as usual. Mark🙏
Thanks Mark, I appreciate the good words.. 👍 NewOnTech is a $2300 DAC from Denmark that will embarrass even the latest Terminator. Remember, ChiFi is not pioneered, it's reverse engineered copies for the most part. But they can't quite get it to the top level ever. There's a reason. People have been conditioned to think ChiFi is the place to go for Value.. it's simply not the truth any longer... ;-) all the best !
Everything in home audio is about refinement, take speakers, the moving coil driver is the same basic device that was invented in 1925. It has been improved over time, but it is the same thing. Tube amps, nothing new just refinement. Analog pre and power amps same as basic design as fifty years ago. Digital power amps and sources, streamers, is where the change has happened. DCA’s have improved over time, but some people want colored sound from their digital so all DAC’s are not built to be state of the art. They are built to sell.
Some DAC Manufacturers care about bringing the music. But most are made only to sell. Look inside a Jeff Rowland class A/B power amp and its NOTHING like 50 years ago. It does not even have a transformer inside.. it uses Ceramic PCB's ...lol... you need to look a little deeper, but MOST power amps are same old shit ... I pick the innovative advanced materials and design products ...
Analogue stage is the most important stage in the dac. I have an audio note dac. And I haven't found anything that matches it. I have had playback design mps5. Emmlabs dac2x. Bricasti and dcs. None of them came close.
@@johntverdik7700 I have the dac 4.1x signature and dac 5 special. But the new 4.1x balanced signature is freaking good. I've been a digital nerd for 20 years. And I still haven't found anything that has the same contrast and ease as the an dacs. Even the 3.1x balanced is a monster good dac.
John, be careful taking advice from threads. We spoke after you posted this and you can try as many DACs as you like from my inventory at no risk. We both know the same industry people so that ought to have given a little insight. ;-)
Hey Mikey, I’m going to be buying a used amp in the 4-6k range. Less than 8 years old. I’ve been down old amp road enough… my speakers are diy 4 way so a fairly good load. I was thinking Luxman m700u or Classe or Michi. Thoughts ?
My Recommendation is Jeff Rowland. It's my personal favorite for solid state amps. Classe was always decent gear just not sure how they are now a days. Luxman supposed to sound good, I'm more into American made HiFi though.
Well first off if youre in USA, holler atta brother for the sale and its best to call me and ill tell you the differences. After I find out more about you and your system and how you listen Ill make a solid recommendation for you... MPD-8 is last DAC territory, but I never over sell them into Rigs where it wont be showcased to its full potential..
hi Mikey - good video and perspective. No different than any other industry - some companies promote the latest and greatest fad to sell product and feed the consumer ego. What's your opinion of DCS DAC products, such as the LINA?
You are correct. I see DCS as aging on the vine a bit. I'm familiar with the Vivaldi 4 box setup and find it a little devoid of soul. Hyper detailed however. I don't like that they sell an outboard clock. To me thats a glaring upsell opportunity. For such an expensive DAC, a hotrod clock should be less than an inch from the converter. To put it outboard is a slap in the buyers face IMHO. It takes advantage of those that don't know any better. The fact that it improves the DAC says to me they purposely did not make the DAC to thier highest level and figured out how to stack another 25K or whatever on to the sale. So I don't really dig thier Design/Marketing style.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I don't disagree, but other higher end brands, also have external clocks. They are all looking to upsell! MSB Discrete DAC is another option for me. Given I have Rowland pre/amps with Magico A5s, I will give the MSB a listen. Maybe a better balance with these speakers and electronics. Many thanks for you video, response and valued input.
@@OCDHIFiGuy The Dave Chord is a wonderfull and extremly involving DAC. Denafrips is too transparent/analytical for my taste, DCS is boring as Hell but Rob Watts is a Madtermind you missing something
$24K is how much it is and that's for the people who buy in that zone. Clearly not for everyone. If you had listened, you would have heard me say I've got $15K, $10K, $7K, $4500 and $2K.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Where can I find the list of dacs you recommend at each of these price points? I am looking for my first dac, server, and streamer. At 72, I am getting too old to cart around over 4k LPs.
@@johntverdik7700 I completely understand. You're not alone. I've been converting lifelong vinyl lovers for years after figuring out how to make digital sound just as good. If you can be patient, the "Grand Opening" of my offering to the dedicated music listeners will be Jan 1 at 11stereo.com. if you'd like something before then, just call me at the number on the site and I'll get you squared away. Cheers !
Have you heard or listen to Border Patrol Dac? I bought it (love it) because it uses old tech in a unique way basically fits into what you are describing to a tee.
Hey Mikey ---- my fussy Chicago squirrels like acorns, walnuts, pecans and peanuts in their circuits. PlayBack Designs Dream Series talks about hardware upgrades due the fast paced developments of high resolution audio as they supply free software and hardware upgrades in their various products per their website. So, is PS Audio wrong in upgrading software to improve sound? PS Audio is more affordable for us audiophiles that don't have unlimited cash reserves, but still want a higher quality DAC. Have you made a direct comparison with the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC? Also, I think the choice one makes is based on synergy within your music system and the age of my audiophile ears which don't differentiate the nuances as one gets older in the twilight years.
Chicago squirrels like Italian Beef and deep dish. Lol. Playback does offer free software upgrades. And they've never had a single one in the 3 years I've been selling them. PS is a decent enough DAC and if it fulfills you then great !! You have spent much less than others. I have had 2 of thier top level DACs here and 4 of my lesser DACs beat them out and nothing has taken the Playback out yet. If something could, I'd buy it. Andreas Koch of Playback Designs invented not only Sample Rate Conversion, but SACD/DSD as well. So he's the guy I'll put my money on as being the strongest most prolific Digital Audio Designer in the world.
My birfday is comin up and for this year I wanna take the plunge into DSD. The level I dabble at isnt high nor is my budget. I found a Sony BDP x800 with SACD/DSD support, an HDMI to DoP converter, and SMSL Sanskrit DAC can be all gotten for around $300. Dont think that price can be beat for cost of entry to the DSD society : D
Don't waste your money. The format can't overcome a bunch of low quality components. A good $500 CD player will easily best it. If you can't do it right, why bother?
AT1272 is totally right Alboro. You are FAR better off buying a 30 year old WADIA that plays 16/44 PCM than some cheap ass gear with the "latest format". Bottom line is do whatever makes you happy. Though old expensive gear that's now devalued will sound way better than the new cheap "Hi rez" crap....
@@OCDHIFiGuy Fair nuff brotha, the input is much appreciated! I suppose for me its simply being able to play multiple formats as I come across stuff that interests me. Feel free to laugh, but the plan is to also aquire a decent LD player as well down the road.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I hope ur havn a great weekend bud! All the car audio shows are in your neck of the woods, thats where you should find some new recruits! Be cool to see your reaction doing demos at a show.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Thats one of the big competitions, and car show. Get a hold of Sundown Audio, they have their own show every year. Pretty much the leader in C.A. right now. Williston audio labs puts on an "old school" show thats cool. Theres a lot of vids of the different shows out there. 160db to the dome is a worthwhile experience! lol Lots of babes too!
@@mrgiggles7840 Denafrips is excluded for me based on political and Human Rights principles. It supports the Chinese, shit ass Govt. I draw the line at my beloved HiFi. I boycott ChiFi. Terminator is a copy of old MSB/Rockna. There is NO USA representation, none of them have Serial numbers, and the Chinese don't care if they eventually break. They made the sale. It took me importing them to come to this realization and Denafrips is the brand that made me BOYCOTT Chi Fi all together. That aside, it's not a bad sounding DAC. It's not great in my opinion but it's not crap.
