I feel like ive watched enough Maru games to know that Maru normally tries to keep his drop forces alive and brings them back to flank if the enemy zerg all-ins
It wasnt really that bad of a performance though. He had enough to constantly do damage to SoO with hit and runs and drops but when the whole army just came up against him he didnt have the right tools for it.
It seemed as though ByuN allowed SoO to gain the high ground through improper positioning of tanks and the rest of the terran army. Maybe a widow mine or two would've helped out?...but what do I know, I'm no pro SC2 player :p
Keep in mind byun was essentially all in with a 2 base economy at 8 minutes, against 1/2 Zerg upgrades with just 1/0 infantry upgrades. That being said, byun did randomly stim his army, not use it, and then not heal it before the final fight which was a blunder.
You got the analysis wrong on the third game. soO had +2 armor and twice an army size against a +1/+1 terran. It was clear he had a strong advantage and could take down ByuN easily.
the upgrades yes, but supply was close, because roach ravager is cheap and doesn't scale, if u have a max out army vs max out ravager, u are in a huge advantage. same with eco, if zerg and Terran are in the same number of bases, Terran is wining. if byun had upgrades or bunkers to defend and if he holded, he would be very much ahead.
That map design is stupid. You can't let anyone's army take that high ground between your 2nd and 3rd base if you wanna survive that counterattack, but if you try to defend your 3rd base, you have to put your tanks around your 3rd base and then never stand a chance to hold that intersection. Byun had to give up his last running base that time when soo pushed back but if he had done so, all those successful multi-pronged attacks then would have been nothing but jokes.
Though byun was nearly winning the fight until he didn’t see the single bile that killed most of his marauders and left him with 0 dps. Feels like byun didn’t quite realize how all in soO was at that point and wasn’t prepared for the kill move, especially with his tank position heavily shifted towards defending his 3rd. Also, mining his own ramp open made that final roach concave so much better, seems like an awful idea and not worth the slightly faster reinforcements if you’re also not going to siege the high ground more directly. I’m honestly guessing that he’s not used to having a hole right there and so he positioned his army not really taking that into account.
@@emctwoo u r right. Byun should have realized soo gona all in as long as he got soo’s 3rd. He didn’t even siege up his new-build tank while that tank engaging the battle as you can see. Byun might not consider he gona lose that fight (since soo’s army just max out ravagers) or he did but had not enough apm to do so. Soo’s econ was destroyed but byun might also be sapped by his earlier multi-pronged attacks. This game is not friendly to old players, especially those terrans who rely on micros that much.
In that last game, soO had +2 armor vs +1 attack on the infantry. On top of that, his final army was almost all ravagers, which are not armored and Byun overmade maraduers. If he had more marines instead of maraduers, he would have taken that engagement easily.
You're absolutely right; Byun trying some fancy builds, atypical unit comps, timing attacks, but it all failed; he saw the most success with multi-prong harassment with a marine-tank push, which is about as Terran as it gets, but the fanciness just didn't carry him.
114 supply bio tank beats 144 supply roach ravager. Ravagers are very squishy so once the roaches die zerg loses. Terran just mispositioned and tanks were too exposed. Byun on paper wins the fight but allowed too good of a concave defending the exposed tanks. Even then without the roach reinforcements byun still wins the fight. So I do think it was pretty close
@@asdfasdf-mn8iu You want to prevent the bunker from finishing, then making the spine to defend. 3 racks proxy can be defended if the Zerg response correctly.
@@tigera6 Lately i haven't seen any zerg defend it by drone pulling, especially not if T has 2 marines out already. Usually they just mine normally and then do an attack with a lot of lings, a spine, queens and kill the repairing SCVs. And soo didn't kill the SCVs, which is why the bunkers never fell. Otherwise the upper bunker would've gone down and that's half the DPS gone.
This last fight was described as close but ended up so one-sided because one important detail was neglected: Terran Army was over stimed. Byun had stimed his whole army one round just 10 seconds before the final fight started. SOO definitely caught this info at 15:28 and went for it firmly at once.
Agree. I also think that the new unsieged tank could be sieged inside the second base behind a line of depots, but im just platinum so what do i now...
Ghosts are slept on as a Gimmick opening. Terran doesn't have a lot of Gimmick openings like this, but cloak, snipe, a decent HP pool and synergy with other bio staples like heckbats and MMM makes this really solid in my opinion. I really think ghosts may need to be reclassified as light in a coming rework because once people really figure out how to abuse snipe VS overseers and high value targets in the early game is going to make pushing as a zerg rough, provided you don't bite it early to ling/roach flood. So many high-value early game zerg units rely on high HP pools like Queen and Ravager rely on having limited HP in exchage for powerful spells, and being able to just say "nope" to most of 150/0/2 or 100/100/3 is crazy strong for 150/125 and hard not to trade up with at a pro level.
Ghosts being light would only make a difference vs banelings (and colossi, but i'm pretty sure that interaction doesn't matter all too much usually). So i'm not sure if that would be enough.
@@legionofpie I mean, the problem i see there is that ghosts don't pose problems as units if they're caught - they're rarely too tanky vs baneling packs or while being attacked. They mostly pose problems because they counter any zerg unit and usually stand behind bio, so they very rarely ever are attacked. Right now, if a bunch of banes reach ghosts, they usually die anyway, it's rare that they survive bc they can tank banes pretty solidly. And making them light wouldn't change much about that, neither would -5 or 10 hp. That's why i think they need a different rework.
Feels like the first game could have gone terran's way if they leaned more into the ghosts with medivac support and marines for soaking at the front. Those early snipes were sick and could have made more momentum but the mechtransition took too long.
@@andrewferguson6901 the problem is he spend the gas he would normally use to build the medivacs on the ghosts. the build might be optimized somehow, but more than 1 or 2 ghosts and you cant build medivacs.
@@lewiswood1693 it's tight, for sure. I think starport before armory is the way to go though. Armory isn't good for hellions unless you already have healing on the field
@15:17 Commentator: This looks like it's going to be an insurmountable lead for Bynn right now! Stats: SoO: 194/200 supply, Byunn 163/181 Commentator: SoO is now on his Last Legs, going for one Big Counter Attack Stats: SoO 198 supply/ Byunn 162 and few tanks/mines. Commentator: SoO is going to have to pull a miracle, he has supply lead and making it work "For Now". Dick Riding Badly, give credit where is due, and No, it wasn't "So Close" with 50 Supply advantage
I actually disagree; they’re just doing their jobs as commentators. I remember Day9 explained this in one of his old videos, but commentators obviously know what’s going to happen. They spectate this game for a living, how could they not? But it’s their job to make it engaging for the common viewer. “Yeah he’s up 50 supply he’s going to win.” Vs. “SoO’s bringing it back he’s going to win!
@@Qwerky396 Your statement makes No Sense. The Commentator did not "obviously know what's going to happen." They were WRONG. Their job is not to lie! There was no Insurmountable lead, nor was he on his back legs with a timed counter. You are full of Sh*t! PS: I typically back Terrain players, and ByanN is a great player I respect. But Facts are Facts
A thing to keep in mind is - roach ravager is extremely supply inefficient composition. A player maxed out on roach ravager has an army size of about 150 supply of any other unit composition in the game. EDIT : I would far more important than the supply lead, were the upgrades
Been playing ghost, hellion/hellbat, mine, tank versus Z and P for years. Since the end of Hots I think. EU Dia, 150 apm, so im not great, but the comp is working wonders. It gets very strong in the late game, but somewhat hard to pull of at the start, you don't have many units. Scout well. Dropping with ghost hellion is great too, sniping queens, EMPing probes, but micro and multitasking must be on point.
Byun's infantry actually ate multiple biles in that last fight. Had he microed it better it's very likely he would of won but he seemed determined to eat every bile that fight.
what does the magic circle at the center of the map do? at 7:57? Is it just a movement speed increase or does it actually help the builders build/unit prod?
Always kills me when I see it in these pro matches. Eight damaged hellions, literally sitting next to an oversaturated mineral line with an extra 6 SCVs doing nothing to bolster the econ... doesn't pull them for the five seconds it would take for them to repair the hellions thus letting them tank an extra two or three hits each at a loss of maybe 100 minerals.
@@montypython5521 not true though? Healing on medivacs is important for keeping the army healthy between fights. Similarly, Shield Batteries and Transfuse are also used a lot defensively/offensively. I imagine Byun just had a brain fart moment.
The upgrades killed him in that last game. +1 attack vs +1/+2 roach ravager won’t cut it. And going into +1 armor after instead of just +2 attack also didn’t make sense imo. Roaches and ravagers hit hard and slow.
SoO's miracle: He's playing Zerg and had a lot more units. He could basically have just A-Moved and won. Even if he threw his units away, he could've just rebuilt his army twice as fast because Zerg and won anyway. No miracle needed.
I think that ghost play could've worked. It just needed to be a constant push. Otherwise what's happens (and what did happen) is that Zerg can gain map control since you lose marine/medivac drops
Byun probably would have done better to only go for the ghost hellion push after he had 2 ghosts, so he could actually have sustained the push versus soo before soo had enough spare queens to just absorb all the ghost snipes. But this was clearly a very unrefined and untested build, not exactly MMM, so mistakes are expected.
Game 3 15:15 by killing the fourth base and a ton of drones ByuN forced the zerg to go for one last push while he was not ready for defense. The dilemma is real.
Honestly Artosis and Tasteless are some of the best, but I'm not sure what they were smoking that last game. They were riding byun so hard only for him to get stomped. Granted he was doing a lot of great harassments, but Soo was winning every major engagement. Soo was maxed with a 35 army supply lead and Tasteless was talking about him being on his "last legs". Then Soo was easily winning the last fight, and Tasteless once again talks about him needing a miracle. Byun was clearly on his last legs, pulls the desperation scvs, is clearly dead and down 50 supply, and tasteless continues "Byuns army is so powerful, though Soo is making it work for now. oh its so close!" and Artosis agrees "it's actually so close here, just a couple roaches and ravagers left over" when in actuality the game was clearly over, Byun being more than 60 supply down and the screen covered in zerg. The bias was so cringe, its like they were commentating a different game.
i believe if Byun followed up the ghost with a couple of banshees and was able to harass the mineral line whilst ghost hellion are at the front door would play out a lot better. I dont think the ghost rush was inherently bad but the follow up was really lacking anything, especially as So0 countered very quickly.
I think this build has a lot of potential. I think if he morphed hellions into hellbats sooner with ghosts, it works. P.S. This build has Florencio written all over it lol
He probably shouldn't have gone so hard on Hellion production and used the saved minerals for at least one Starport for Medivac production. By the end of the push, he had a huge number of Hellions leftover that ended up being kind of useless afterwards which goes to show how this is still in an experimental stage tactic. I do believe that it was really close to working but the unit ratios were off (needs fewer Hellions to quickly go into Medivacs to then create a pseudo-bio comp that can be healed and lifted).
I thought the same thing... Hellbats would have given him the game in the early minutes against only queens and zerglings, but instead, he had to run...
TY made a ghost rush before he went to he went to his mandatory 2yrs ago and succeeded. I think the major difference was that he straight up went for more ghosts than it is with hellions. Byun should in fact not have went for that many hellions early on as it did not allow him to build more ghosts early on. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-REQEL4l3Atw.html
It takes a lot of time/resources to tech switch like that. The swarm hosts all came after he dedicated to battlemech so he had neither the time nor the resources to switch. He would have to build starports, reactors, and the banshees which are very expensive and slow to build
@@shapowlow You can definitely get an upper hand against Zerg but they have a strong defenders advantage. If you don't cripple their economy over and over and over and over you will lose. Killing one base isnt gg like other matchups. You have to kill it 3-4 times for it to really matter. It's just the way the game is designed.
@@blizzfreak245 if you have an upper hand against Z, then capitalize on it. If you can't and they're still on equal footing with you, then you dont have the upper hand. This is a common mistake with the players: they expect too much reward for doing something then complain if they end up with less. Sure I'll give my insights on this. Wall of texts incoming: Killing a hatchery is obviously not an immediate gg for Z, that would outright make Z a trash race because Hatchery is so easy to snipe. So my advice is to not play against Z like you play against P and T because, Z is not P and T. Based on your comment, it seems you think killing a hatchery puts the Zerg on the backfoot big time and you can just sit back, do nothing, maybe few trades here and there and expect them to lose with a one big push. You're wrong there, a hatchery can be rebuilt as soon as you destroy it. Killing whole bunch of drones AND THEN trading will put Z on its backfoot. Why? Because drones and units share the same larva. So creating 16 drones means 16 less roaches, which is significant. Killing 16 drones and letting Z rebuild its larva count is useless. It's like killing a bunch of marines and letting T remax without capitalizing on it. That's exactly what happened in this game: ByuN failed to capitalize on his early build because he cant. He trades, kills some drones but soo defended enough to replenish his drones. Is it because Z is OP? No. It's because the build is bad against soo. All ByuN can do is to keep soo's roach count in check but cant do anything to the economy behind it. Likewise, he also can't capitalize on drone kills because he had to pull back before killing any units. It's unfair how people dismiss the skills of the top Z players by saying things like this. Try playing Z for a change and see how it feels like to defend and decide when to create defensive units vs replenish and expanding your economy while spreading creep. You guys make it sound like it's easy, kind of a good sign that you guys dont play much and only base your judgment on tourney vids.
transitioning from ghosts to mobile mech was the biggest reason that build lost. get blueflame hellbats and medivac. Don't lose your ghosts. snipe the roaches/ravagers and win. Transition to mech ruined that ghost opener. I was still genuinely excited to see it though that's awesome.
My question from the first game is why didn’t Byun build Banshees, nothing Soo has can touch them and it would force action on soo or allow himself to be withered down from above.
I don't understand the anti healing/repair of the pros, like why not spend some energy on a mule if u cant afford to pull 1 scv to repair those red helion. Maybe I'm a noob so that's my thought but I think if those helion were healthy they could have changed the fight.
i theorycrafted this a while back and everyone shut me down. cool seeing it in action! also wanna see raven/mass reaper and see if that works. byun tried banshee/mass reaper a while back and almost won, raven seems better (creep removal, anti armor missile has double effect on reaper 2x pistols, worker harrass potential, with similar resource investment required as banshee)
yeah it's a really cool and unique style. Ghosts are actually very good early on against zerg, they just have few problems hard to notice instantly (cost a lot, energy does not recharge fast enough at pro level, they slow down your tech tree, you need to micro at low level, must be babysitted to not get surrounded by lings ...)
It’s terrible. Even if you do damage it does horribly because you invested into a small number of ghosts + the tech to get into them. In small armies ghosts are terrible
why didn't he produce 1-2 Banshees after the Ghosts? The Roaches would've been useless. And Swarmhosts are only G2G iirc?! So these would've been useless too.
Man, I thought about this, helions + ghosts are just so perfect on paper Vs Zerg. I'm so happy to see it in pro play finally. Some time ago we have seen queen drops. Only thing I still want to see is proxy spire. Since proxy dark shrine became so rare, I have been hoping to see overlord spread creep in furthest corner of the map so spire can be built there for a crazy muta switch.
Byun is a fucking scripter. In a game against dark his ghosts PERFECTLY split in a perfect circle around the neural ghost before he used emp, that would require over 4k+ APM, when you could just shoot the neuraled ghost. I've lost all respect for byun when I sae that and no one is talking about it
I think byun Lost the First game after the ghost part, i think this ghosts early counters those mass Queens really hard, i Just think he should have gone for either madvacs and bio, or, he should have scouted that the zerg was going for swarm hosts and transitioned to some Air tô hard counter ALL zerg units
Zerg is way too power on LoTv expansion. I remember playing Terran up to the original or HoTs and it was more bearable. Once the swarm get into large numbers, it’s so a gg.
