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Here’s an idea, why don’t you take the Noctua’s AAS desk fan from this video and combine it with some of the past fans that won first place or just blew your mind with how well they preformed and see what kind of new numbers you get with cooling and air flow. Maybe even combine it with the Cheater? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-SIcjrMmXlCc.html
I wonder if the noise normalized level in the Radiator config would have been different on the Cheater. IE if the radiator effected the tested noise level & if an adjustment in the RPM would have brought them together again while giving different results. Since the radiator would effect the noise output of the system with the resistance it provides.
Great idea do a test to see if it's actually the fan or the "accessories" that make the changes. Use the stock a12 and stock t30 with the exhaust and intake parts from the cheater. We will find out how necessary the accessories are vs the fan design!
I see a lot of people are still wondering what's happening with the Acceleron fan. Glad to say it's still going! It's just taking a long time. Those that are still waiting, thank you for your patience. Also, thank you again James for reaching out to me. Hope you all have a wonderful day c:
Do let us all know what happens when you are able to release the information when it's all said and done, or better yet, send him a few fans to test, or perhaps, as I heard it's a computer manufacturer, maybe a whole system, like as a promotional piece, or a thank you or something, along with lots of information for him to do a video with
I want to see the stock fan installed inside the cheater barrel. Because at this point you're comparing a very non optimised fan in a flow controlled channel vs an optimised fan with no intake or exhaust aerodynamics. The question now is what's the optimum intake and exhaust design for the stock fan.
What I really want to see is, the cheater's intake+exhaust with the blades of the next best one, to see if the cheater is good by design or by bruteforcing it.
I would love to see what happens if you just add the velocity stacks to a stock A12x25 and Phantex Fan. Would it improve the performance of a standard unmodified fan?
This was my question too, especially with the front part and the back part separately and together. Is it the shroud at the front concentrating suction? Is it the static fins at the back turning the rotational of the swirling wind from the fans back into straight rearward energy?
Yeah, that's what I was more interested in as well. How well does that fan - as itself - do when sandwiched in between the input and output stages? This just showed how the motors compare...
yes, it would because it smooths out the flow going into the fan. and im guessing the flow straightener makes the air leave the radiator sooner too, instead of twisting around and stagnating behind it.
EDIT: AreaDenial below is right. Sleepily Fatfingering a calculator is a fail. It's a good idea, but the gauge is wrong. The markings are equally spaced. The volume of the spool increases by pi*r^2, not just r. (e.g. A circle with r=1 has an area of 9.8ish. A circle with r=2 has an area of 19.7ish. r=3 has an area of 29.6ish. this isn't equal, linear growth)
@@WAF74 Your math is wrong, it proves the opposite of your point. The area of a circle with r=1 is 9.8, r=2 is 39.5, r=3 is 88.8. Your math showed linear growth instead of exponential growth. EDIT: Additionally, if you look closely at the markings, they aren't equally spaced. The distance between the two outer markings is slightly smaller than the distance between the two inner markings. This would be much more apparent if the spool was wound closer to the center of the circle.
The shape of the fan blades are more or less efficient at specific rpm. Look at ship/boat propellers; they have the pitch fixed to be most efficient at specific revs. Thanks for a great series, I really enjoy watching.
They won't work: the stack and duct require air flow. The stock blades generate static pressure more than it does air flow. If anything, the performance might drop.
The lower effiency for the cheater is likely due to having less static pressure compared to the stock fan. The blades have large gaps, which at the lower speed and with a restriction, allow some air to bounce back and become turbulent around the fan disk. That's why the large 120 volt fans for servers or industrial cooking equipment always run at full speed; they are designed to move the air quickly and overcome the pressure with volume.
Nope. It's the inlet vanes, they are at a fixed angle. They are more or less the reason for the higher efficiency but even more only at a specific airspeed. Since the resulting airspeed is different every test the effectiveness changes. It has to do with attack angle. That's why vanes in turbines are adjustable
I like the inclusion of graphs to show your data, it makes it much easier to visualize and compare at a glance. One recommendation if you continue to use them is to group the bars next to each other by category rather than by fan. E.g. NN unobstructed cheater goes next to NN unobstructed stock. This improves comparison ability between the two data points especially when the values are so close together as in the example I gave above.
This is what a community is all about...not interested in monetary gains but the advancement of the group...thanks to you and all your time and hard work and to Nestos...
In a pinch, the newer versions of Fusion 360 have a decent STL converter. It'll often import the wrong size (no size reference value in STL format), so you'll have to adjust that. But it's passable, you'd have to do some mesh cleanup. I've used it a lot when needing to edit a Thingiverse file. I'd recommend importing a known size model (or quickly sketch one .. e.g. sketch the hub to the appropriate size) as well, so you can resize according to that reference and fit.
Just had a thought - Do more fins allow for increased static pressure? Maybe that's why the Cheater had a lower flow with an obstruction?? idk Also, do you think it would be worth checking out the current draw to see how electrically efficient the fans are? Keep up the good work :) Thank you for your time.
Probably yes and tge lower the rpm the bigger the difference (with higher rpm a blade is covering a bigger area in a shorter amount of time). But also the angle of the blades matters. Would be really interesting to see the difference of a standard fan with and without the duct and exhaust.
MAN, WHAT HAVE I MISSED!?!? I feel like I've only missed a couple episodes and now you have what looks to me like a full-on testing rig for fans on the bench that's so cool.
i love this show, as it combines PC Hardware with 3d Printing over and over... i am working on some interesting 3d prints, too.. like an armor for mainboards, ATX I/O Hoods, Fan Shrouds and Air Tunnels and my highest piece of art will be a mostly printed modcase for custom watercooled PC Components. Even more interesting Projetct here 4 your Channel could be: finding a DIY formula for a Watercooling liquid, that allows to watch the movement (like Mayhems aurora or Primochill Vue) but without clogging!!
Hey @Major! I am just starting on 3D printing and i was asking myself if you could include the printer you used to make the fans? I ordered a FLSUN super racer because of your reviews, still i would like to know what you print with which printer (since you collected quite a few over the years :D). Thanks for your positive attitude and entertaining fun videos!
I would love to see you do the same test on the "best" fan you have had on fan showdown. it was the slug mk2 if i am not wrong? thats a fan i would love to print out and use on my computer.
The answer to the results is the different airspeed at the inlet. The vanes in the inlet change the angle of attack for the fan blades relative to the incoming air. Since they are static the effectiveness changes with different airspeed. And the airspeed is affected by the pressure the fan has to overcome.
If you wanna geek out to the Max you could make a fan curve for each. You’ll see why the one fan has different low noise performance. When you drop the speed so much you have the head fan law to contend with ( heat decreases by the square of speed). So dropping speed so much really eats into the restricted cfm.
For the noise-normalized results, static pressure is lost in the cheater due to the long exhaust section. If the cheater fan was right up against the radiator, (remove the exhaust section but leave the intake section), it would likely score better.
In principle, airflow is proportional to rotational speed and static pressure is proportional to the square of the rotational speed. For example, doubling the rotational speed will double the airflow and quadruple the static pressure.
Hey Major, I have a fun Idea, As most cases are simple boxes nowdays and we know their performance, How about a case build out of shrouds? As a case usually has 4 extra fans, you can enhance the shourds also with 4 extras.
fans that builds static pressure will preform better having a velocity stack and fins to help remove the turbulence will also make a huge difference if you look at how underground mines ventilate they use the same concept
The distance of the blades to the surface of the radiator makes it lose a lot of static pressure at low rpm unless everything was perfectly sealed up. At high rpm this becomes less of an issue due to the much higher pressure build up between the blades and the radiator surface.
I KNEW the post with the fan blades missing was intentional and not some kind of self-destructive fan design. Second note, I think next fan showdown should be low profile 140mm fans, since Noctua isnt giving that space any love right now.
Very simple, tighter (both between blades and frame clearance) gives better pressure while broader blades give better airflow. The slightly higher result at max can be explained by the speculation that probably stock blades got little air starved while the massive propeller was able to push more air at lower rpm. If you measure how many amps the fan draws in both cases I'm pretty sure the cheater is using considerably more power when obstructed than the stock blades. For a radiator build I think the stock blades are a total win. Also if you try to have some sorta cheap fan do some pulling from the other side it'll help the stock blades reach full potential at high rpm as well.
@Major Hardware, I believe you are missing a portion of the picture. What would the stock Typhoon do within the "cheater barrel". That is a variable you haven't accounted. I appreciate the level of effort to get one stock fan to support additional fan designs but it still leave the question to what benefit is added by having the velocity stack and exhaust backing. Otherwise these are different tests and cannot be compared properly. If you look at the comments you'll see everyone comment to this effect.
I'd be curious to see the performance difference of the fan printed in Colorfabs lightweight PLA. You have to change your flow to 50-53% and the filament expands while printing, it basically foams up before it cools. I use it to 3d printing airplanes and they're usually 50-60% lighter than regular PLA. There's a company called Eclipson that designs airplanes to be printed with this material and they have a solid set of printer settings on their website.
You can definitely see the dropoff coming at noise normalized. The smaller blades plus lower speed really show it's weak points once the speed falls off. Still cool to see this done!
it's the gap between the blades that hurt it with the static pressure test with the radiator. if it was set up with say 7 or 8 blades, there's less gap for back feed, and it would have much higher static pressure.
I think there's back pressure from the fan and at lower RPM it builds up in the exhaust. If I'm right you can resolve it by placing the radiator between the exhaust and the fan.
Check out the Arctic P14 it seems to be leaning on the design of noctua and nidec fan, it's a budget fan that is supposedly outperforming some of the noctua fans
It probably has to do with the blade clearance. The smaller the blade clearance, the less air escapes from the sides, rather than going through the radiator. This is why window fans are more efficient with the side curtains extended.
I would love to see the next fan designes printed with a sla printer. That should give the blades a much smoother look and maybe a little bit better performance. And on top of that u could print in clear/silk resin and make some really cool rgb fan designes. Love your show.
Cool 😊 Maybe you should have run the cheater at the same RPM as the NN T30 for the radiator test as the more RPM then the more air being moved. Just a thought 👍
Just a suggestion: You could probably use a Mass Airflow Sensor from a car to measure airflow pretty accurately. I'm not sure how it'd need to be wired but you're clever and I'm sure you could figure it out!
I would love to see the cheaters shrouds on the a12x25 and on the p30. I wonder how much benefit is to shrouding and how much is the blades. I know with turbochargers that having an inlet horn/shroud will push the surge line left, meaning that inlet flow is much more efficient. I wonder if the effect scales down to pc fans
I remember there was a second place fan that actually could fit into that fan casing that performed almost just as well as that huge monstrosity.. that one would be the one to go for.
I'd guess the difference in the last test might have something to do with the higher number of blades and how they cut the air into smaller channels with the radiator. Might be completely wrong of course
Haver you ever tried printing your fans with the non planar Slic3r (git repo:Zip-o-mat/Slic3r)? Teaching Tech made a video about this ("Achieve true 3D printing with non planar slicing"). It is a slicing techniqe that doesn't print each layer on a constant z height, it rather variates the height in order to achieve rounder curves. It could improve the stability and vibrating behavior of the fan. And even if it doesn't make the difference: I would be interested in a comparison similar to the one with smoothed ABS, as it is a helpful 3D-printing technique, which not everyone is aware of.
T30 Fan better on radiator (NN) : When pressure becomes more important, maybe having more blade area with more shallow angle is key? The T30 looks like it covers 80-85% of the area and the cheater is around 65-70%?
there's probably more performance to be had in the cheater from blade profile, leading edge, trailing edge, surface roughness/smoothness which the stocker already had done
Somehow I missed when you started using this new testing method... BUT, You ask why the factory vs cheater blades didn't loose as much flow restricted, it's because different fan blade designs work differently for pushing through an obstruction, there are even different designs for pushing vs pulling (for automotive cooling, there are fans meant to be mounted in front of the radiator with "pusher" blades vs the normal "puller" mounted behind the radiator). Now the thing is that different restriction will change the fan noise also, you can even end up in a harmonic where the fan will cavitate and speed up and slow down under what is apparently a static, steady load on it. Because of that, you should "noise normalize," which I'm guessing is setting an rpm where both fans have the same dB output, under the specific conditions that you're testing- if you're testing in free air then noise normalize for that, if you're testing in that tunnel then noise normalize for the fan in the tunnel, and with a restriction then noise normalize for the restricted condition. You should find that what is normalized will change under each. This might seem to be making this more difficult but really it isn't, just choose a dB level for the test and regulate the power input till you reach that dB. The RPM is an interesting fact but really shouldn't matter WRT to determining which is more efficient at a specific noise level.
I bet there is high pressure formed in the exhaust, being backed up by the radiator on the cheater when it's noise normalized. If you put the radiator before the exhaust it could perform better.
I think the stock fan does better with the radiator and the noise/rpm limit because it has more blades and less space between them, allowing it to maintain more static pressure. The cheater’s lower rpm limit (due to noise constraints) and more space between blades allows the fan to back flow and “leak” more against the pressure of the radiator. But, idk…
i suspect that the reason for the flip flopping of CFM with the radiator on has to do with the T30 fan being designed for quiet use on a radiator or a heat sink. whereas the cheater is designed to push as much air as possible. pushing all that air the way that it does causes the air to move faster and choppier when it's being passed through a radiator or a heat sink. so when you begin to noise normalize with the radiator, you have to slow it down below its regular CFM performance in order to get the same NOISE performance. just my guess though.
I wanna see what fan provides the best flow through a radiator. Maybe 2 different fin densities? Max and then obviously noise normalized. I think many of use have an AIO or custom loop that we would be really interested in that. (I know I am). I use pwm p12's on my radiators because I've found (though no in depth testing) that they provide good cooling while being virtually silent.
I would say weigh the fan blades on the 3D printed and the stock. Then run both side by side non stop to see which would last longer. Not sure if the weight on the 3D printed blades are more, but if they do weigh more, how will that affect reliability.
Ok hear me out. Fan motors are rated to deliver a certain amount of torque. If you make the blades of a fan heavier, they have more mass and can propel more air. More mass means more force with each swing. So if a fan motor is able to spin the blades at at least 1200 RPM, how heavy can you make the blades and do they effect cooling/airflow?
What would happen if you shortened or lengthened that square piece??? Could it be distance between cheater and the radiator causing test differences???
It is necessary to make a fan that will work safely in an acetone vapor environment. Explosion-proof (non-sparking) and corrosion resistant glue and plastic.
