Can Dragon Princes Redeem Themselves? 

Legend if the army has no wizard: “You’ll lose points for this” Legend if the army has a wizard “I won’t use it because it has to win without the wizard’s help”

This personally looks more like a disaster battle. Those chevrons are- wanting.

Fire wizard is a part of this doomstack I'd say since all the dragon princes are highly fire resistant.

I get the feeling that Legend is going to be terrifyingly effective with Slaanesh armies but also hate every second of using them.

The introduction was so long and already mentioned so many lacks Dragon Princes have - that I almost believed he will end it with like "...so actually fuck it, there is no sense to test this army at all".

Tier 3 for Knights of Caledor with their special building I think.

I think the fire wizard is meant to be used due to the fire resistance that dragon princes have. So technically speaking, spells like the burning head or even firestorm and piercing bolt can be thrown without dealing friendly fire.

Woah, he actually used them! I was expecting he'd do like with the blood knights xD

Having ran a Dragon Prince stack with Imrik, and used it to wipe out Hag Graef, Clan Eshin, and The Last Defenders, (confederated Imrik as Eataine), I'll state the following: A life wizard using Shield of Thorns really helps them out, especially with all the techs and skill boosts to them. That 7+ experience tier is vital. Fire wizard doing Flaming Sword of Rhuin is also very important, because of Ashen Fields and Kindleflame. Also, Imrik can get Dragon Prince to 90% effective fire resistance, so using firestorm and burning head while they are engaged with an enemy really complements the stack overall. Two wizards, two nobles is pretty much the best way to run the stack, all on horses. On Mortal Empires, you can get this stack much earlier than a star dragon stack, because Imrik gets the building at tier 3 in his home province, which makes it super viable. Overall, I'd rate it 7/10. It does very well, and once you have the full experience and tech, as well as skill boosts, it does very well overall. It's not good for sieges, true, but that's not necessarily as bad as it seems in the late game. Some enemies you get out in the east have lots of armies, and being able to crush them on the field is quite important.

This is another example of why I never understood very hard battle difficulty in this game. I play Leg campaign and normal/hard battle depending on the faction I’m playing. I just don’t see why people buy a game to basically never touch 50% of a factions roster and then basically forces you to play the same way with almost every faction. Range/Monster/Hero spam. So boring and just plain not fun. This is just me though. I now have 100’s of dollars and thousands of hours in this game. I wanna play with all the units. :)

Imagine being tier 5 unit and loosing in melee to clanrats

I agree with what you said. What I noticed over the last 100(?) videos is that you generally rated stuff (not only doomstacks) very high. If everything is between 8 and 10 its hard to differentiate. Besides that I really hope high tier cavalry will be stronger in WH3. They are a lot of fun to play IMO because they need the micro. It makes it a bit more challenging. But if my tier 5 unit looses vs a tier 3 unit which isnt even a counter for them its just a joke.

I think your new catch phrase is “But legend….” in the high pitched voice. Makes me laugh every time

There was +5% speed after drummers too in tech tree. Feels a bit wanting, not having those chevrons and tech.

Says that 10/10 doomstack needs to be idiot proof, proceeds to micro manage like a Legend.

Cavalry in general, even in Warhammer 3 won't be capable of being a doomstack, you have to constantly circle around melee troops picking off artillery, archers, and their ranged units before the melee infantry. With the amount of micromanagement needed to do this, its totally NOT idiot-proof, there are LOTS of situations it will get absolutely shredded. 5/10

21:55 remember the medieval 2 days when Legend LOVED horses?

This doomstack isn't as good as it could. If you get them to rank 7 and use the diamond guardian phoenix you can get those bad bois to 70% physical resistance with additional 10% ward save from the tech. 80% damage reduction on shock cavalary makes them cycle charging really effective.

Dragon princes are recruited at tier 3 in imrik's starting province

If this is the last doomstack video then he should do a tier list of the doomstacks for each faction.

Here is the "IDIOTPROOF" Dragon Prince Doomstack: 1 Imrik - 1 Fire Wizard - 1 Life Wizard - 1 Beast Wizard - 3 Dragons 12 Dragon Princes - 1 Sisters of Avelorn How To Use: " 1. Make IMrik and 3 Dragons a 4 Man team for sieges and Lord- Hero snipe. 4 is ideal you dont need more. 2. Put Dragon Princes in front Charge into enemy from front- No Micro needed, buff with life and beast wizard when engagement starts, they will have %90 physical resistance. Cast fire spells on enemy infantry that are engaged in melee. 3. Have Sisters of Avelorn Pick up berries, tend to the wounded, cheerlead from behind :) . Why sisters? To get a good score ofc :)

Very few things are a 10/10 doomstack, and cavalry will never be a 10/10

It's not a proper dragon princes doomstack. They aren't even in the half of its potential. You can buff them so much(85 phys res, 90+ magic res, 100+ speed, 60 MA/MD, 87 WS(57ap) and 120 charge bonus) so they will become almost unkillable and delete units in 1 charge. I have save file somewhere with Imrik campaign. He had this army with 7 DP, Imrik's special dragons and 2 mages(fire and life). They kill whole Chaos invasion(~20 armies) in 1 turn, fighting 4 armies each battle. I did once battle against skaven settlement where 1dp kills 2062 units and delivered 133k damage and took only 2 casualties.(I'd post link to proof but youtube will delete my comment). Imrik faction buffs are OP, broke and fun.

Imrik's Dragonhorn makes a big difference for these guys. +24 Melee Attack and Cause Fear map wide makes those charges do way more damage and break stuff easier. If you've got Imrik and the Mage on Dragons for Terror you can really pull mass routs even on Very Hard. It's still not *amazing*, but I've done it and it's certainly functional as something to do.

20:03 That is a perfect way to descirbe the Dragon princes + Most of the crap units in the game too.

While i dont think this is a doomstack, you missed a few points. Imrik can recruit them already at tier 3 from his start position which makes them wholly more viable as an army. Also not using the fire mage seems weird, since the dragon princes have resistance to fire. But i would have been a lot smarter to also give the fire mage flaming sword of rhuin. Could end up helping with damage, and also decreasing leadership from burn. Futhermore i think imrik should have been on a dragon so he could do tactical terror routs.

Cavalry just can't be 10/10 at all. Do what u want, cheese as u can - but cavalry just cannot be idiot-proof 10/10 doomstack just for their mechanics. But! A few good cavalry (including those dragon femboys) is really helpful for most of the armies. If u play well they can do devastating job, be a counterplay for lots of important enemies and deal 10-40k damage in a battle, killing hundreds of enemies - and killing them well. Sweet cavalry - the weapon that u should learn to use, the weapon of real total war players))

This one feels too micro intensive to call a doomstack, but could be effective if you like this sort of thing. Still feels like high elves have better options by the time they can recruit dragon princes.

This army would eat Long Beards alive. 1 more injustice to Dragon Prince Cav is having Fire wizard and not using them. This cav has essentially 90% fire resistance, so using wizards with dragons, treemen etc. and not using with them is just biased.

I feel like it would be better if we added like 5 nobles with charge buff. Imagine those devastating frontal charges.

totally off topic, but that swinging on the bell the rats doing in the beginning looks fun

Im so proud of legend. He's come a long way from just using the wizard and hiding the units until the enemy army is dead to properly testing them. I would honestly rate this like 5 out of 10. Imrik is really the only one to get full use out of this and with that limitation it kinda makes them even worse.

I bet the player uses this army by charging cavalry forward into the enemy and using fire wizard to win the battle. Dragon princes hold the enemy still while burning head and firestorms do damage

i understand not using spells, but why not use the heros as meleefighters without abusing anything?

If it has cav it isnt idiot proof Source: am idiot.

Yeah, I agreed with Legend, here. 5 or 6/10. Honestly, they need some serious buffs. Hell, a significant buff would be being able to recruit them at Tier 4. At least there, they perform a bit more on-par. Plus, give them more buffs. Say you have Vaul's Anvil on Ulthaun, because we all know there are... What, 3 or 4 Vaul's Anvils? But yeah, say you have Ulthuan's Vaul's Anvil. Give the DPs 10% more Armor Piercing. You have Tor Yvresse? Give them Anti-Infantry or Anti-Large from a special building... Right now, they just don't have enough puff for their stuff.

So frustrating to see someone send this as a Ready doomstack. Such sloppy and lazy work, theres a lot of things that couldve been done better, like the experience. Surprised legend made a video of this shit.

This is definitely not optimized, even setting aside the lack of chevrons. This should have 4 or 5 "crushing" Nobles at a bare minimum, and probably more like 8. There's diminishing returns on "Crushing" compared to just having more units that benefit from Crushing (especially if you have other sources of weapon strength bonuses), but it's not until you have a lot of them. And even then you're probably about as well off with white lion chariots or something rather than Dragon Princes, honestly, although it's close. Given that it's Imrik, you can probably argue the best configuration is something like Imrik, Fire Wizard, 7 Nobles, 11 Dragon Princes. FWIW I think it's totally fair to bring in the Fire Wizard and drop some spells on the infantry blob at the end. You're taking advantage of the fire immunities. Sure, you don't want to solo the army with the Fire Wizard, but use it to clean up the infantry at the end. 6/10 is a decent rating here, maybe on the low side, but certainly in the right range. However I demand you retcon the Surtha Ek chariot stack to 6/10 as well, since it's basically the same army and you gave it a 4/10 ;)

Ah, I remember still the horse sandwich catchphrase when I first watch legend in West Rome attila.

Made the mistake of turning on the subtitles. Legend Turtleball! 😄

I knew it was going to be a 6/10 when the video started, simply because Legend explained all this already a hundred times, and I'm not even a regular viewer or a veteran of the channel. I just do like Samwell Tarly: listen to the professional and follow instructions.

Have you tried 20 necromancer doomstack? Zombies deal almost no damage. But being able to summon 240 stacks of them every fight is enough to drain even the beefiest armies. Imagine how many winds of death you can cast with all that winds pool as well. With heimrich khemler, your armies drain health when in combat, necromancers cost 30 gold maintenance each. With Helman Ghorst, the Lord is a mortis engine.

Cavalry Doomstack proved how good it was at Agincourt versus archers 0/10.

The problem i see with non monster cavalry in the series is that they lack mass. The charge bonus is great ... but it only afects the front row of a unit. That is why the initial impact is great and then they suck . Give cavalry more mass so they can go through half a unit ... and monsters can go 75% , and then the game would be more balanced.

Just to clarify, all cavalry is anti-infantry by default. The explanation of the anti-infantry tag includes "superior speed and/or mass," which all cavalry have, which gives them the edge against infantry. In fact, I am fairly sure not a single cavalry unit in this game has an actual anti-infantry bonus lol. Not sure why Dragon princes don´t have that tag, it´s pretty arbitrary, but TL;DR: they are anti-infantry. Then there´s even superior cavalry units like Grail knights or Blood knights that have an anti-large bonus, which means they are very effective against both infantry AND cavalry (and potentially some other large units, but imo they will usually perform best against other, non-AL cavalry).

HE Basic archers are great becase at the end of the battle you can kill them with magic to get the bloody trait and just recruit new ones for next turn.

I would just add that there are like 17% resistance that the guy missed. This stack needs a guardian phoenix and you should get heart of the flame. Idk if they fixed the MerxytheMad cheese, but thats also really helpful for them.

try to make a top free stack list or a vid on some good armies that you can spam cuz they are basically free.

One thing to consider for ease of acquisition with Imirk. He should be able to recruit in one turn in his capitol if he kept the City of Brass landmark building. Do not think that makes them better than Sun/Moon/Star dragons but it was a good army for dealing with the vortex invasions.

Even though you didn't want to use the Lord and heroes in battle I feel like since you'd pretty much only want to build this doomstack with Imrik you could have used his MA buffing ability, but this does let us know close to what they'd be like with a different Lord

Dragon Princes are actuually Tier 3 for Imrik. If you rekruit from the landmark

This video made me miss my Attila campaigns.

Dragon Princes are actually tier 3 unit for Knights of Caledor so they are much more convenient to recruit than you think. Still, cavalry in general is quite bad in WH2 and I'm pretty sure this so called "doomstack" would have huge problems against tier 1 melee infantry spam armies (like dreadspears). I love cavalry and Dragon Princes can deal tons of damage when proper rear-charging but army full of shock cavalry without any other units is a really bad idea - personally I would give this "doomstack" rating like 4/10.

Legend is screwed no matter how he plays this. Don't use the nobles/wizards, and he gets: "But Legend... they're part of the doomstack to be used." Use them and he gets: "But Legend... you didn't really test the doomstack because you used the nobles."

I leave an idea here for doomstack, Army of cold ones with lances commanded by Rakarth he give them sneaky trait, buffed as much by tech tree and give them 1 or 2 Masters with X trait ( I forget name of this trait but it give them +5% weapon damage and + 3 attack) I play with a lot of mods so legend probably wont dowload all of them only for 1 video so i leave my idea here and good luck if somebody want to do this.

Did anyone actually have to watch this to know the answer to the question no one is really asking? Always good of Legend to hammer the point home though. If CA gave us the ability to dismount our mounted troops though, now that would make things interesting.

Yeaaaah finally, lets go dragon boiis

i love the idea of cavalry spam armies in my head, but in practice it's just so inefficient and micro-intensive ..i just dont have the patience. I tend to just build missile armies with strong wizards to do most of the heavy lifting.

having imrik and the mage on horses instead of dragons really just puts this stack at a disadvantage.

One of biggest advantage of single entity units compare to multi entity units is the fact that magic is far far weaker against them Even a single garbage spell like warp lightening can do tones of damage to units like cavalries Special racial abilities like warp bomb or dark conduit or black ark abilities also deals next to nothing against single entities and all in all in current shape and form without a true reform and rebalance single entities will keep ruling the warhammer total war series with no doubt unless CA make a very revolutionary action in game 3 give some special utilities or abilities to some units specially melee infantries and cavalries to make them viable for recruiting In current form there is no chance for these guys to be even near meta in warhammer series

BuT LeGeNd WhY cAn'T i SeNd CaV iNtO sToRmVeRmIn?! lol jk amazing use of the cavalry!! Felt like I was watching the rohirrim :)

I don't mind a couple of Dragon Princes in a regular army but 17 is too many. The point of a doomstack is to face off vs multiple strong opponents in a row and make it less of a grind. If you need to micro this much every bloody time, it defeats the purpose of making a doomstack in the first place. That's why doomstacks need to be easy to use.

Today I learned: Legend has a catchphrase

I think this stack could have potential with A a few extra heroes, get stronger buffs on fewer units, then you cosplay as skaven on the high elves and absolutely nuke the piss out of your own units with the fire mage/mages. Take advantage of their high resistence to clump enemies, it's basically q combination between skaven tactics and skele spam for the high elves who give 0 fucks about money.

In terms of sieges - there's no siege attacker in this army and not a single unit capable of using siege equipment. Would the game even allow this army to initiate a siege battle?

0:10 look at that rat ogre compenetrating the platform it's standing on like it's 1995 and we're playing Doom

There's one thing though. You said the wizard wouldn't be used, but you use life wizards with dragon doomstacks. Isn't that contradictory? If you use life wizards to heal dragons, you should use fire wizards to at least soften the melee infantry or buff the cavalry.

Think it's weird not counting the mage as part of the doomstack ( any doomstack). Perhaps the dragon princes run in like a wall of stupid and tank the units while you go ham with fire spell which don't hurt them at all. Because of all the anti magic/fire.

not even maxed out exp, dude was sure confident

he missed a lot of boosts that can be add on dragon prince, most importantly the dragon buff cheese that can grant them like 40% physical resistance and 40AP damage. Dragon prince need those things to be 10/10 doom stack, but they are still absolutely shit in siege battle.

I would give this one a 7/10. I agree to not using the wizard, due to how "balanced" magic is, but I would use the lord and the other hero. They can't wipe out half the enemy army, like the wizard can, but they can make a small difference to your cav with auras and stuff. Finally, there are probably means to buff the cav more, with additional heroes in the army.

Trying to make cavalry, chariots, monster infantry working for years - campaigns like this are painful 90% of time on legendary/very-hard. Played recently Markus Wulfhart campaign with Huntsmen and Helblasters - so much smoother experience and overall easier game. I hope battle difficulty system will not discourage people from using melee units in Warhammer 3.

Dragon Army, 9/10 fair enough, Dragon Prince army 6/10 very unfair but alright lets say fair enough. Where would it put the Sister of Avelorn spam, 4/10 then? I am not saying Sisters are bad, it is just this army is way more stronger than Sisters.

My micro isn't good enough to win the battle with such few casualties.

Hey Legend, I was curious if you might consider doing a "how to level" {hero/lord name here}. I just realized as I was playing a Thorek campaign how I have no idea what traits to take down the blue line to get Lightning Strike are. Not sure what the algorithms leaning towards these days as to video number or length ( nearly 400k in it's all probably gravy to you at this point ), but I wouldn't mind that kind of guide with a bit of queenslander accent thrown in.

Using Dragon Princes and then not using Fire magic is kind of a waste. They are immune to fire so blobbing up and hitting them with a Firestorm is part of the strategy with them. That being said Dragon Princes cant really doomstack well anyway but they can still work with Imrik atleast

So I know you already did the "Tierlist tierlist" video and you've done many of those videos already. Might be done with them. But... hear me out A "Rating your doomstack tierlist" video. Or, just a plain "Doomstack tierlist" video. You mention near the start of this one how you think this might be the last doomstack video you do for TW:WH2. If so, it would be awesome and very useful for all of us to get a direct and simplified overview of which ones are good and which ones are bad. Now, there are 117 of these videos... so i get if maybe you don't want to do them all. Maybe just some of the highlights then? Otherwise the thing is that, without any spoilers in the title, we would have to boot up each video and just skip to the end to get the rating. Which of course this is just me being lazy and needy but I thought I'd put the idea out there

It's tier fkn' 5 cav, they should be monsters on battlefield

Well I appreciate your attempt at this, but cavalry just sucks. (unless your bretonia) I don't know why you waste your time on crap. I'd give this a 3/10. Your the high elves why waste your time on crap armies. That army isn't worth it's upkeep imo, which is rough to say with the high elves who can print money.

This is a misuse of this "doomstack"... The idea here is to just charge the dragon princes straight into the enemy with imrik and the wizard right behind them casting a burning head right through the line. The dragon princes are 90% resistant to fire magic (70% base + 35% from imrik +15% magic from imrik) and armored which means they take virtually zero damage from burning head. The wizard and imrik also have synergy within this army, Imrik provides a map wide 20% weakness to fire to the enemy, not a reduce resistance but an actual increase damage taken, the wizard also applies a map wide fire weakness every time it casts a spell. Imrik also applies a fire weakness on all enemies he hits. To make this army even better have two banners of eternal flame one on imrik and one on the noble to spread the 8% weapon strength and fire damage (30% increased damage due to map wide weakness) to all the dragon princes. The wizard can also cast the flaming sword of ruin for extra damage and imbue fire, also is a spell and triggers fire weakness. The primary purpose of the dragon princes is to have a fire-resistant army hold the line while the enemy chaff is burned alive, then their secondary purpose is to take down the small entity count enemies that the fire magic is bad against. Also, when you use this army in a siege you switch imrik to his dragon for siege attacker and pray it's not a one gate map. Also also, Imrik is your anti-single entity on his dragon I watched him 4 shot a hydra in about 10 sec. I would not rate this army a 10/10 but maybe an 8.5-9, again only for imrik though.

21:23 Three way horse sandwich.... Legend, this is as hilarious as the Vampire Pirate that you called "Smelly Cox" AHAHAHA

Hey, I have watched all of your doomstack video series. And I feel a bit lost. Could you please do one of the following things, that will help a lot. Make a playlist with a collection of all WH2 doomstack videos or make another video, in which you would rate all the doomstacks by place from 1 to 10 or by tier. Thank you in advance!

That was no doomstack lol. A doomstack should be able to fight the enemies head-on and utterly destroy them. For the High Elves that'd be Star Dragons and Arcane Phoenixes. Sisters of Avelorn also work to some extent but not nearly as good as the other two. On the other hand cavalry units like the Dragon Princes can just never be doomstacks due to how weak they are in this game. The only time it makes sense to recruit cavalry-only armies is when playing as Brettonia. And that's only because those are the only good units they have. But even Grail Knights aren't doomstack material because you'd need to micro them for an hour or two if you don't want them to die. If you charge in head-on, your units just melt away.

On hard and lower I bet this is pretty easy to use but, I’d never recruit them. Cavalry just suck in WH2, and Star dragons with Imrik make more sense for a doomstack playing on very hard battles.

No max chevrons, force march...A.This isn't a doomstack. B.This can never be a truly fair test. C.Still nice of you to give his army a try though.

I said 5/10 on the "is this easy to use" question early on. You're gettin soft old man. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! No, that's not a doom stack.

>dislike unit >intentionally gimp them usually I enjoy your vids but your bias is clearly showing in this one.

This is just not a doomstack. Conquered the map many times with High Elves and never recruited a single Dragon Prince unit.

2-3 "banner of the eternal flame" would also help to give a unit and any unit around them fire attacks and 8% base WD along with the map wide "ashen fields" 20% fire weakness

grail guardians with fay buffs are the best cav i think maybe the wild orcs cav with all the wurzagg buffs plus the psych buff from killing thorgrim can be also good

Not sure why you use a doomstack and then not use units in the army? I can understand not abusing the units like the wizard but just use it like it is intended and not use one person to run around dodging arrows and using magic to kill everything use the noble, wizard, and Imrik as support like they are intended because hiding units doesn’t test the “doomstack” it tests the dragon princes. You might as well disband the wizard and the noble and put more dragon princes in. Not sure about your logic other than trying to appease certain people by not using magic but the wizard is a part of the doomstack and so is the noble so use them lol.

I would rate this stack 5/10 or even lower to be honest just because it requires much more micro management efforts compared to other doomstacks to perform well. It's too "fragile" as you said compared to single entities stacks with healing (or compared to ranged doomstacks that shouldn't take much damage at all).

I dont like the Fool proof argument. I prefer an Army that can smash everything with good micro over a braindead army that wins most battles.

how tf does pirate faction have the sword of khaine XD very fair rating tho! I'd have gone for similar +-0.5!

Cavalry should be good against single entities that don't splash on large entities, for example lords. Since they can only kill one model at a time it's really inefficient use of their weapon strength.

Dragon princes have the same problem as Depth Guard, they are not bad units persay but they are in the wrong tier. if the Dragon princes had armour piercing and were tier 3 they would be fine.

Imrik: gives -20 fire resist to enemies on whole map Doomstack: no units have flaming attacks *insert y u do dis meme*

anyone knows why Legend stopped livestreaming? Is he tapping out until tww3?

those chevrons need to be higher up for the princes to get the rest of their stats, right?

Why is the cavalry so bad in this game? Cavalry charge in Rome I and Medieval II was such an epic thing.