Can Lithium be cheap AND good? (Powerwin 200Ah)

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Today we look into an inexpensive basic battery How does this one stack up?
IN THIS VIDEO (coming soon)
[00:00] Intro
[00:23] The PowerWin 200ah
[01:30] Specifications
[03:34] Disassembly
[10:24] Cell Balance
[22:27] High-Current Test
[26:40] Discharge Findings
[27:56] Leader Board
BACKGROUND:
I've developed a device that helps you add LiFePO4 batteries to your power system.
(www.emilyandclarksadventure.c...) Since I started selling them, I can't count how many people have asked me my opinion on what would be a good battery to buy. This series is my mission to find you the best, cheapest LiFePO4 battery out there right now.
THE BATTERY LEADERBOARD: Take a look at this link. It leads to a table of all the batteries we have reviewed, looking for that diamond in the rough. it also contains links to the very best price for each video, including hundreds of dollars off this one.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Or directly on Amazon
amzn.to/43gb01s
Or you can get a $15 discount using the code "Clark" by goint directly to the PowerWin website
powerwinpower.com/products/po...
There are links on the leader board for this battery. It can be found in our Amazon store below or you can go directly to Redodo with this link shrsl.com/461bg use the code:EmilyAndClark to get a discount and let them know you found them through our channel.
Have questions or comments? Leave them below! We do our best to read and answer all comments on our channel.
-----------
LINKS TO PRODUCTS WE LOVE (Affiliate links to things we actually own, use, and recommend. We are almost never paid by companies to endorse products. If we are, we will tell you in the video): www.amazon.com/shop/emilyclar...
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE and click the BELL to see new videos every week, and more content like this.
CONNECT & SUPPORT OUR CHANNEL
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Опубликовано:

23 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 71

@BigDreamsBoating 4 месяца назад

I’m enjoying this content and find it very helpful. One thing I don’t like about Amazon is buying stuff I’ve never seen in real life. All the videos you guys do like this truly are a huge help Thanks

@mememe5231 4 месяца назад

Great video! Thank you for all your efforts!

@skipbaker529 4 месяца назад

Alway a pleasure to watch your experiments and evacuation. Great information! Cheers!

@marklapierre5629 4 месяца назад

That looks like a pretty basic 100 Amp battery. It's sad that the manufacturer's description is lacking. I downloaded your spreadsheet and applied my own values to the sort order which not surprisingly yielded a different sort order. Thanks for the excellent work.

@vonfleming2178 4 месяца назад

I would watch a 2 hour video of yall's if I thought I can learn something. Thanks for all yall do!

@mark7362 Месяц назад

Just saw it for $400 on Amazon, that's a deal! And I like the location of the terminals to be able to bookend it to a battery bank.

@thechiefsway2618 4 месяца назад

I did several videos on balancing a battery and battery Bank. I did basically exactly what Clark said. Discovered what the battery voltage was at when the BMS cutoff. I then set my charge controller to charge just below that value for a week. Then increased the voltage by .1 till reaching 14.5ish. The last video was when I was recording a 16Vdc spike when the bank was nearly full. Discovered two batteries was out of balance.

@jonathanwetherell3609 4 месяца назад

Snap! I'm installing a Victron inverter at the moment. I decided to go all Victron, I know I could have got cheaper but I'm mechanical and I wanted the tech back up. A basic house bank system for a small boat.

@aledwilliams 4 месяца назад

All this battery know-how and info is amazing, and a huge help. is there any merit in adding a column for notes/limitations e.g. when a 200Ah battery is restricted by a 100Ah bms? Thank you for your hard work and skill...

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

I just added that to the notes on the leader board. I had thought that they were going to update the ad after I notified them Tuesday. They said they would but I see the Amazon ad still says 200a so yes they get a note. Thanks

@lenwhatever4187 4 месяца назад

Re: battery box size. I agree smaller is better (and cheaper to make). A battery that fits really loose in a pre-made battery carrier that is designed for certain group size, could be considered "dangerous". Or perhaps group sized plastic cases are just cheaper than designing you own. Many of these batteries are called "drop in replacement" batteries and are sized to be drop in to a 200AH LA Battery holder. Hopefully, Some new group sizes for lithium batteries will emerge, or better yet, cell manufactures will make cell sizes that will fit closer to the available size in a group battery case and we will get a 279AH lithium battery (ok the number fell out thin air) to replace a LA 200AH battery... Len is not holding his breath.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

I think it's mostly they buy existing cases.

@user-th7zx6gv5p 4 месяца назад

Hi Clark really appreciate you putting this together. I’m a complete novice but looking to switch to lithium for my second car battery and in my campervan. So very helpful. One thing I didn’t quite get was the BMS is rated to “only” 100amps which I under you to say you can’t put a load of more than 100amps on the battery… but overall you will still be able to draw a total of c200 amps. Is that correct? Thanks again to you and Emily for the great content.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

You can draw 200 amp hours (that's a measure of power) but at no more than 100 amps (measure of current) at a time.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

And you should consider a BankManager in your install. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

@MiQBohlin 4 месяца назад

The actual volume, and measures, of a battery is very important for equipping a sailing vessel. I wish all of them was built to the correct dimensions.

@Warren_Williams 4 месяца назад

Outstanding like-to-view ratio

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Thanks

@evertking1 4 месяца назад

Won't the cells just balance their self out over time in a bigger battery bank? Love your videos

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

If the BMS actually balances the cells yes but only if you raise the charge voltage to where it would shorten the life of the battery. My current thinking is either watch the cell voltages with Bluetooth to track when, or periodically do some high voltage charge runs to balance the cells. What do I do? I just let the BankManager do its thing and hope the cells stay balanced because I'm lazy. I make tools and procedures so people can do what they choose.

@gerrys6265 4 месяца назад

Another question....if you have one brand of battery, is it a problem to add a different brand if you want to expand your system with another of the same capacity? Thanks, love your videos

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Common knowledge says don't mix. Either manufacturer or age. I do a video showing two very different LiFePO4 batteries and what can happen. So what do you do if you want to expand your bank later? Throw away all your old batteries and start over? I have a great solution but it's not free. Add a second BankManager. The BankManager lets you mix any kind of LiFePO4 banks and treats each as it needs to be treated. On Temptress I have three (I understand they are cheap for me) BankManagers running three Li banks, of different construction and age. It's interesting to see them all behaving differently and charging at different speeds.

@IvanPudic-rj2gh 4 месяца назад

Have you test the temgot battery? I like the battery with LCD screen and app control function, the price is also same like this.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

No I haven't. These review videos start with the manufacturer offering to send a test sample. That often starts with someone like you suggesting our channel to them.

@IvanPudic-rj2gh 4 месяца назад

Okay, i will send message to temgot.😀@@EmilyAndClark

@benkanobe7500 4 месяца назад

Clark, would you recommend your FLIR camera setup to others that do this type of experimentation or something else?

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

I've only had experience with what I bought. If I didn't have to use the cord it would be great. I'd recommend it

@johnnylightning1491 4 месяца назад

Clark, when you hook up the bank manager does the alternator "see" lead or lithium when it is charging? The hundred amp BMS on this battery is quite a disappointment, I would be nice to run my microwave for a couple of minutes. Could you maybe do a video on your test/lab equipment for those of us that may want a flexible charging system etc. I especially like these test videos but then I'll probably be in the market for a lithium battry (ies) in the next year or so. Keep the good stuff coming.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

The alternator just "sees" the voltage in the system it's connected to. This voltage is mostly controlled by the battery (or device) that consumes the most power, holding the voltage down. In most cases that's the li taking a charge. What kind of questions do you have about my lab? There isn't much to it but the "bench" power supply and some tools like a handheld osiliscop.

@johnnylightning1491 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClark My question about your "lab" was just what kind of equipment you are using, for me specifically the 'bench" power supply. It seems to be able to charge Lithium batteries but also serve other purposes I have need for occasionally. My question about what charging system "sees" really relates to the amperage draw. I should have been more clear. From your answer it seems like since you are usually charging the lithium. If that is the case you would need to limit the amperage drawn from the alternator for reasons and by methods you have discussed before. Thanks for your reply.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Alternator regulators are voltage driven. They control the current from the alternator as a reaction to the voltage of the system. So if the voltage goes up to high they will lower the current to keep it where they want it. Search Amazon or eBay for "DPH3205". That's my power supply. You can find RU-vid videos on it as well I suspect. I wish it could deliver more than 5a but otherwise it's great. I use it for all BankManager development tests. Life sucked before it.

@johnnylightning1491 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClarkThank you!

@PanelsUpSolar 4 месяца назад

Glad to see the Victron equipment arrived. Hopefully it will help with the continued testing as well as better living. Let me know if you have any questions.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Thanks, I have one more battery review scheduled then I'll install it properly. Lots to learn. I'm hoping I can get that stand-by current down.

@PanelsUpSolar 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClarkyou can utilize AES or search mode in order to reduce the constant draw at no load.

@jeffh1266 4 месяца назад

I've been watching these and am wondering how to set up a 24V system that will still charge a 12V starting battery for the engine? My 50 years old electronics schooling says that simply taking a "tap" off one of the series batteries isn't the best idea. Maybe with the Bank Manager it would work? Dunno

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Nope, no center tap, especially with li. You can use an MPPT solar charge controller. Connect the 24v bus to the solar panel terminals and let it charge your 12v bus.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Of course I'd add a 24v lead bank and a BankManager so your Li charges properly.

@uhjyuff2095 4 месяца назад

If the battery can charge to 14.4-14.6 volts the cells are top balanced so there is no need to open the case to check the cells individual voltages. If the battery can't charge to 14.4-14.6 volts, let the bms balance the cells by charging the battery full and then use a schedule of charge for 1 hour and then off for 10 hours and charge on for 1 hour and off for 10 hours until the magic 14.6 volts can be reached.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

I thought that way myself and I was going to do a video. I thought I had found an easy way for buyers to know if their battery was good and how to know if it's bad and should be returned. Was feeling real good... Then I realized some BMSs don't stop until 3.75v per cell. I don't like it but they do. And if I made this video not only would "bad" batteries look good but the manufacturers would start using overvolt BMSs so their batteries would not get returned. I would be making the world a worse place. I can't do that. If you can find a foolproof and uncorruptible way to test with the case sealed.. please share.

@uhjyuff2095 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClark Each battery has different BMSes as you said. My advice would be to not buy those batteries with those 3.75v bmses. keep up the good work and keep showing us the bad bmses to avoid!

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

How does one know. Actually I guess if someone bought a battery that I reviewed and cut open they would know the BMS limit. Maybe I can do the video. Thanks. It's nice to talk it out. But what's to keep the battery manufacturer from changing the BMS when they start getting returns. OK I guess I'm off it again.

@uhjyuff2095 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClark do the video! Let's talk, a battery that has the correct BMS will not charge over 14.6 Volts for more than a few seconds. Lots of people will test the capacity to determine whether to return battery. Imo, doing my charge/balance schedule process could also be used to determine if the bms is functioning as according to the owners manual specifications. Spend the time to allow the bms to balance the cells is annoying but worth it because it's new and also unknown. This one time I bought a battery where the seller clearly says "bms with balancing" and checking the pack voltage over many days yielded no change indicating the bms not fixing the issue leaving me with low capacity battery.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Yep. I'm now putting a clamp on meter over each of the cell test wires to see the balance happen. It's so slow on a big battery that I figured I'm just not seeing it. Well often it's just not happening. I just tested a Redodo today that showed no balance but I'll give it a pass as the cells are within a few hundredths at 3.65. best balanced battery I've seen! And yes we have the same procedure for balancing outside the box If I do this video of course that's part of it

@benverhaag8191 4 месяца назад

Great test, but you never mentioned te price! That makes

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

You are right. I think Emily cut that part out. Well it's on the leaderboard in the description

@garethevans9789 4 месяца назад

Great video! All that empty space is rife for moisture ingress by all that air expanding and shrinking (you have big problems if the BMS fails). Was there any conformal coating? I don't get why they're mixing batteries when they have a little excess capacity on the label. It just puts more pressure on the BMS & 'good' cells when it isn't needed. Buying rechargeable batteries on Amazon isn't fun. Many of them are straight up fraud. Buying batteries shouldn't be a minefield. Then we have the other end of the scale, where they're bringing out "Battery Passports" in Europe.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

I don't remember looking for conformal coating. I bet it did. I just checked the Redodo I'll review next and it has conformal coating. Conformal coating can be put on by the board house. It's just a check of a box and an added expence. I'd hope the BMS guys would spend that money. I do for BankManager but the BankManager isn't in what should be a hermetic case so I guess it's more important for my boards.

@garethevans9789 4 месяца назад

@EmilyAndClark I'm sure you did too! 😂 If the BMS fails (like a dead short) all other safety measures go out the windows. The failure mode is such a grey (and complicated) area. Large batteries do need to be monitored/ managed (I'm a systems/ software guy). Bare copper near the PCB is a concern (especially on boats). Let you said, a bead of silicon around the edge would make a massive difference. Oh, did it have an IP rating? (not that you can trust it much. Amazon..🤬). Anyway, it was a decent review.

@elmer665544 4 месяца назад

11:52 I think you meant 3.65 for shut off. Not 3.365. For example 3.65 x 4 cells = 14.6v. I see that you correctly stated 3.65 later in the video.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Yep thanks

@EngineerMikeF 4 месяца назад

You had me at "it smells like a Chinese factory."

@latortugaabides5556 3 месяца назад

This is like if Car and Driver said they tested a car's performance but they never took it above 25mph. I want to know what to expect from the product at all speeds, not just how it behaves in the school zones.

@EmilyAndClark 3 месяца назад

Did you watch the video?

@latortugaabides5556 3 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClark Yes

@latortugaabides5556 3 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClarkYes I did watch the video and I've been off grid living in my van for 7 yrs. I upgraded from lead to battle born batteries 3 yrs ago. I wish you could upgrade your equipment so you could test each of the bms protection functions not just the over charging protection.

@EmilyAndClark 3 месяца назад

Sorry

@gerrys6265 4 месяца назад

You keep talking about your battery manager being the only one that works properly for Lithium. What does it do differently than others? Why would other battery manufacturers not make an appropriate charger for their batteries? So what should the top end voltage be on a 12 Lithium Iron Phosphate be while charging? 14.6? I think I heard you say in another video that 14.1V should be the top, but here you let it charge to 14.6V....or did I get that wrong? Thanks, Confused

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

That's it exactly. There is no correct voltage to charge a LiFePO4 to. It's not like lead. There are a lot of factors involved to charge correctly in a dynamic working system with variable charge. If you want to start a study on the subject I suggest you start with the article by Conrad linked in the bottom of this page. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms If no-one makes a proper charger and you want to sell batteries you need to spec a substandard way to charge them. Right now the only ways to charge correctly are true constant C rate to a voltage or my device.

@gerrys6265 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClark Hmmm. If there is no correct voltage to charge to, then how did you know what voltage to tell your battery manager to charge to? And at what C rate? Thanks...I will go do more homework. Seems strange to me that battery manufacturers can't make a charger that would be applicable to their batteries. Strange world indeed.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

The BankManager doesn't charge to a voltage. It uses some multidimensional math that I developed using voltage, current, time and history. It was surprisingly complex but it works and has been proven again and again on different batteries to work. Every battery review I do uses the charge limit twice. Once it's followed by a charge to BMS shutdown to test the battery which takes little more power and again followed by a calibrated discharge which shows correct capacity (so proof of full charge). Usually the charge ends at like 13.8v in my lab but the correct answer could be as high as 14.6v There is just no way to charge li correctly to a voltage alone. It's not lead. It's an interesting rabbit hole to dive into. Enjoy.

@gerrys6265 4 месяца назад

@@EmilyAndClark Thanks. It does still seem strange to me still that battery produces and charge controller producers haven't figured their reputations and warranties are on the line for proper battery care..... They tell you to make sure it is fully charged, but then don't suggest a way to ensure that it is. ....they do have that fine edge they walk about making batteries last and 'needing' to sell more in this capital driven society. Cheers

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Charged improperly they last long enough to eat up most of the prorated warrantee. Have you ever actually read Battleborn's warrantee? It only covers assembly failures and is prorated. They know most buyers only read the 10 year part and pay their money. Also the expensive batteries cost more than the replacements would cost and the cheap batteries... Well Chinese warrantee, does that even mean anything?

@JeffreyDRein 4 месяца назад

Wait the company lies and they earn good vs bad and not great??? Does bad mean bursts into flames by looking at it crosswise?

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

I don't think it was malicious these really aren't well managed companies at this level. They promised to fix the ad. (I just checked they haven't yet for Amazon) Maybe I'm too generous but I gave you the information and you can weigh your own rating. Seems like you won't deal with them. That's understandable.

@benadams9037 4 месяца назад

Yes, you've been creeping up in "features", but so also is the trajectory of the industry at lower price points over time. Your trend is not entirely caused by you.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Thanks. And some of the feature packed batteries are kinda worth it

@johnlecher7602 4 месяца назад

Ahoy! from Vancouver Wa. Quick question if you have a second? I'm looking to do a backup system at my house. not crazy large maybe 5 to 8 kwh with a 2 to 3kw ac inverter. I have been going port to starboard 🤣🤣 on doing a 48v server rack system or 12v system. 48v because of the ability to expand, wire size, less number of batters. but I'm quite frankly, scared of 48v 🫀🌩 And 12v has a lot of applications with car/boat/outdoor equipment. Any thoughts on what else to consider? oh and western Washington with all the sun we see, 😂😂 i think I will wait on solar and just run a genny every couple of days to charge if needed. thanks for all the information from electronic, boats, and how to live a fulfilling sustainable life. safe sailing and tell Emily I will stay off Ch 9 and 16. 🚣‍♂🚣‍♂

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

Yep sunshine is rare there. I sailed temptress out of the straight of Juan de Fuca in 1999. I'd go 48v for a land installation. Everything is cheaper and you will be wiring 110 anyway so don't be afraid of 50v

@lenwhatever4187 4 месяца назад

The magic number is 70v so far as personal danger. 70v seems to be just the right voltage (fingertip to fingertip) to control your heart. 120v is not a great feeling but you will live... I have :) (lets not count how many times please :P ) 48v is not an electrocution hazard. 48v is a good upper limit for DC because that is the maximum DC voltage that 120v-240v AC switches are rated for in DC volts. The reason for this, is that the minimum conductor spacing when the switch or breaker is open will continue to arc over at DC voltages much above 50V. These are all open to air switches and breakers. equipment for DC voltages higher than 50V are vacuum or gas filled and sealed.... and expensive and more dangerous to work on. Removing a battery terminal of a high voltage DC system may not have enough room to easily get the cable far away enough to stop arcing when the person forgets to turn breakers off first. Buss bars have to be installed with a greater distance between them or be sealed. Stay below 50V but get as close to 50v as you can. That means 48v is a good safe voltage to work at. All electrical systems _are_ a fire hazard but that can be easily managed. When I was young and worked on NiCad belt packs replacing individual cells, I have seen cells that are so discharged I couldn't read any voltage at all on them, catch fire when shorted. Treat every battery as fully charged.

@EmilyAndClark 4 месяца назад

And.. BankManagers are only good to 48v! www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms