Yeah, I'm going to be controversial and just say Games Workshop RUINED wargaming. I ran a Science Fiction bookshop back in the day, I role played weekly and wargamed once a month- they probably ruined role playing as well. Fantasy does not transfer well to wargames, specifically because it is just that ... its made up. Then a company like GW get a near monopoly and start to impose their own made up rules with no basis in reality, so a sledgehammer can come down on one side or the other depending on what 'army' is fielded and unless the 'special rule' is known by the other side it just leads to a very unsatisfying game. There's the position that Warhammer et al brings young people into wargaming; I'd argue that it simply pushes them away from historical wargaming into an expensive side line that was created to maximize profit by just creating new and different made up things to collect, variations upon an bottomless well of insubstantial variety. Conversely, that's also why role playing with anything that involves a gun soon results in lethal termination, no magic potions of vitality, and again an unsatisfying game, there's the quick and the dead !
games workshop is so entrenched in most gamers now it was always impossible for me to get people to even try historical games even if I provided both armies and offered to explain the rules
I must study more English, I understand some things but using the translator I tell you that your channel is excellent, a great contribution to modeling, wargame and history. Greetings.
@@NapoleonicWargaming being 6 pages long and free, you can literally read it in 15min and have a quick 2h game, which is another plus when playing napoleonics!
I'm currently working on an 1809 Grand Duchy of Berg Brigade, which is 3 Regiments of 3 Battalions, this will join my 1812 Grand Duchy of Berg Brigade, which is 4 Regiments of 2 Battalions. Plus contemporary Cavalry Regts of Lancers and Chevaux Leger. If it wasn't for pick up type games they would never see a table together as an unhistorical Division
I don't think you can do a PU historical game unless it's ww2. it's too niche. Black powder always probably it's the most supported. also wouldn't you ask all these questions to the store before showing up? also the latest 40k is trash Horus Heresy is at least fun
I belive you can make a good balance between historical accuracy and balance. In a game I play you need to create an AvantGarde so that might be A 1815 Prussian Infantry Brigade with two regiments of cavalry supported by a battery of horse artillery. Now - a Prussian Infantry Brigade can have 2 regiments of line infantry and one regiment of landwehr infantry, or 1 regiment of line foot and two landwehr, but they would always have a 6-pounder battery. Both types of Brigades were present at 1815. Some Brigades had Shutzen, some did not. A regiment of landwehr cavalry could be larger than one made up of dragoons. So just add the point value of what you picked. Now if you took more "weaker" units points wise- use the excess points on extra ammunition wagons, veteran status, extra terrain, etc. This way you end up with a historical makeup, and more or less balanced force at the same time.
I'm an American and yes it is hard to find people to play with that already know how to play and I don't know of any clubs I live in Hacienda Heights California and there are not a lot of wargaming Clubs around here so I taught my friends and built to armies but I listened to your Channel all the time it's pretty good sometimes when you're describing the battles it's almost like being there if you're not a history Professor you missed your calling
even with 40k, and the way the new edition is structured, just going somewhere with an army will have the same problems, you get with historicals if you don't ask before what rules or version of the rules are commonly used (and with 40k balance issues you might end up bringing a nuke to a knife fight and people avoid you if you don't ask about what lists are normally used) Yet I see base sizes and scale as not really a problem in Historicals but an advantage, playing 15mm Waterloo British against 28mm Peninsular French might look off, you can have perfectly fine pick up games as almost all the rules are flexible in base size (and the if there are 4 60mm bases per unit or 6 40mm bases makes no difference) also, games like SAGA were you have a single set of core rules for different periods and flexible base sizes it is also no problem to have pick up games with your Crusader Knights against Spartans, one on 25mm round bases and the other on 20mm squares and people should be more relaxed about that, as it is still a pick up game, so all about playing games and not an arranged narrative battle were everything need to look perfect one big point of pick up games would also be to have a set of rules that is easy to learn so even if the person turning up not knowing it, they can grab it within a single turn Black Powder is not good in that regard here but still the best we got because it covers the wider time period but maybe some lighter version of the rules with better supplements that are more about pick up games for Napoleonics alone, I would choose LaSalle 2nd Edi for club/pick up games as it has the advantage of a point system with a larger army list collection, easy to build an army list (also for those not knowing the rules), is easier to get into and plays on a 6x4 table (or smaller)
For a simple set of rules with a quick playtime but extra layers of mechanics/depth I think Valour and Fortitude does well especially as it is a living game with occasional updates, multiple time periods with more to come and most importantly its free!
That voice discussion around points wasn't anything like me. lol . Hate points systems. We just have same number of units. We drop the terrain and make it up. Haven't played a historical game yet though. Where its lost here was the shop moved from a back road with parking out front to major road and exposure but parking is walking from a supermarket car park 10 minutes distance. My back is shot so I asked for their loading area park. Went from a dozen guys to 3 playing BP2 28mm Napps. Saying that the Same shop is full of card deck games , 40K , star wars. Not one WW2 or historical game of other type
I dont want to come across as a "america is the center of the world" type of person. And i know i mention the U.S in your comments alot already. But i will say one thing i think would help for a company to do would be a dedicated 1812 U.S army list/rules. Obviously the U.S was not a major player in the napoleonic wars but inevitably alot of people will want to play their own country and the U.S during 1812 is ignored in favor the american revolution and civil war.
Some really good insight here. I only wish we had a local club and didn't have to travel 3 hours by train to find out everyone is playing Saga or $40K instead of Bolt Action. lol. We used to have Napoleonic meet ups, but we had two "Napoleons" who just couldn't get along at all and it just fell apart. Not going to lie; bit jealous of your gaming problems.
Even solo wargaming I'm having a hard time finding the era I want to play because of historical accuracy, whether it be Napoleonics or WW2. I have such historical autism that I can't bring myself to purchase North African Italians because I don't want to have to buy British or US armies to pitch them against. The only reason I'm having issues with Napoleonics is because I feel like I have to play scenarios that are set within actual campaigns and doing what ifs or one offs is just difficult with this mind set. Honestly late Cold War or modern games are probably the easiest for one offs because literally anything can and has happened.
I don't change rules easily or willingly once I find a set I like. I played WRG for years, then In the Grand Manner and now Black Powder/Hail Caesar/Pike and Shotte. I doubt I'll ever change. I believe the endless churn of rules speaks more about the restless, dissatisfied nature of the rule writers and gamers themselves than any genuine fault in existing systems. I've updated to BP 2 and HC2 but frankly, they needn't have bothered as neither makes any real difference. If I was a club gamer, it would likely frustrate the stuffing out of me how you describe the rules and scale dilemma.
It is ironic, given the scope of battles and high level of generalship, but Napoleonics are the easiest warfighting method to grasp. Taken down to its basics, you have the three combat arms. Learn their basic capabilities and limitations, and you are set to start gaming. It doesn’t matter if you’re 14 or 40.
At my club, we will often pack an army for SAGA in addition to an organized game when we come down because it takes so few figures and plays so quick that if the booked game of whatever finishes early we can often get a pick-up SAGA in as well.
Interesting about your 'slave to history' comment. I'm in the opposite camp but then I wargame with very few people and we build opposing armies all of which are specifically period correct. I even build both sides these days. If you allow for 1806 vs 1815 armies the question follows - how far do you push it? Just a question but such an agnostic approach looks extreme in ancient wargaming - Ancient Sumerians vs EIR and so on. Then again, I'm not a club player or trying to grow the hobby or accommodate new gamers.
I think that's the dream, to have the perfect armies, for the perfect period. I think it's great with a s.all group of gamers with similar interests. That's why I need to get General Dan looking at Crusders!
Hi, Tim, and good luck with the event down in Derby, hope it goes well. Really interesting points today in the vid. As a former (decades ago, the Newbury rules) and probably future Napoleonic gamer, I found much food for thought. Of course the easy answer to the impromptu game idea to introduce new players is to bring both armies and see if anyone needs a game. 6mm is ideal for this as two 6mm armies are lighter, cheaper and can fight bigger battles than two 28mm armies. 😊 Personally, though I have played my share of Warhammer (Fantasy, not 40K) with points based armies, that style of game is, for me, a wargame equivalent of Fantasy Football....spend £X million quid, pick your team... Not my favourite at all. Having said that, a newbie might not find an epic rearguard against a vastly superior force, selling their lives to allow the main army to escape, that might be a tough intro to historical wargaming, so I don't completely discount the utility of a forced balanced scenario. I tend to think that shows and events, where the interested neophyte sees, Custer being overwhelmed, the redcoats at Rourke's Drift or the doomed defenders of the Alamo, suffer complete annihilation, and roll a few dice is more likely to stir something than 1000pts of (insert army here) on each side of a battlefield with no story and nothing at stake. I guess I believe that the most important prerequisite of the proto-historical-wargamer is an interest in the history, with the emphasis on STORY. Don't you think so?
I liked your bucket analogy, although from my experience the first bucket is the number of people who play historical, then napoleonic, at your club. After all the filtering you are left with you and maybe 1 or 2 if lucky. The other issue is that BP is really designed for big battles on big tables, and while 6x4 is perfectly fine, a bigger game isn't practical for a club night 7-10pm -ish. By its nature people get into BP for that experience which closes of the idea of PU games and more into well organised game days. Club nights lend them selves to game like Sharp Practice or Silver Bayonet I think, but then you get into the problem of people who play TFL games don't play Warlord because of reasons... Ultimately, I wish Warlord would do more events like what you have organised.
I was the first person down our club to decide to play black powder… I declared I wanted 28mm and that was that haha. We have to play on 6x4s so limit ourselves to 400-500pts so the table isn’t flooded. The same just carried on with pike & shotte and hail caesar 👍
Apart from all the things you mentioned the number of miniatures is a barrier to entry. Does Black Powder work well with the Warlord Games starter armies (4 battalions, 1 cavalry and 1 cannon)? I really don't know, maybe it does. But now that I do have an army painted, it is the hobby achievement I am most proud of.
When it comes to accessible Napoleonics, I suggest looking at/discussing “3 to 1” (player-brewed napoleonic rules which fit in a couple of pages) and “Soldiers of Napoleon”, which mixes maneuvering, flavour and scale wonderfully. Sadly not many people play Soldiers of Napoleon though
Maybe? Like if you know you and friends want to play a game that weekend, if you get things ready, you can play a big game of black powder over an evening with a break for food. My Naps are based around an Austrian and French Corps at Wagram, unit wise, with some fun additions (can you have french without the old guard?!?) But I mostly play fun what if fights that trying to re-enact a battle. That said with historicals I want it to be a fun fight, but not a mirror match.
Once played an all weekender of 1st edition 40k, play with whatever troops you turn up with. Loads of fun, especialy when I took out one players entire army with a single, 1000 point missile when he brought on his home made Eldar dropship loaded with all his troops. Be fun to play Napoleonics with anything you turn up with
Your comments about taking the historical context away to have a balanced game that is "fair" to both sides really gets to the basic differences between the American approach to Napoleonic wargaming and apparently the British approach. First of all, pick up games don't happen in the US as a matter of course...the games should be historical, balanced or unbalanced. You appear more interested in just playing the "game" than really approaching the Napoleonic period with an appreciation for the history. Your philosophy is similar to the Games Workshop marketing approach...just get people interested enough to invest in the miniatures, etc. and if history gets in the way, so be it. Historical miniatures wargaming might have begun as a British pastime but I think it matured in America.
An interesting point, but one I'm not sure I agree with. I think the competition scene is very much an Ameeican (and Australian) thing, especially for GW games. It's not that I ignore the history, it's that I allow it to inform my gaming, not restrict it.
Can't say I agree; although I've never been to the States so I certainly can't paint with a broad brush here. I think the emphasis should absolutely be on the historical accuracy of the rules, whilst still be playable in an evening. Most clubs just play one evening a week. For a weekender the battles can enlarge but still use the same set of rules. As long as the rules are both comprehensive but also intuitively playable then the scenario is almost irrelevant. If you've agreed to refight Wagram then refight Wagram, but the decisions of the wargamer or the luck of the dice should still be able to effect the result even within the historical accuracy of the rules.
Am currently re-basing my Napoleonic's to 6 figs per base (two deep) rather than 4 to a base single file. have had that basing since the 80's playing WRG. using Shako at the moment and will give Valour and Fortitude a go as well.
That's how my dad's are based! Digging it old skool! I've played Shako a few times and I did really enjoy it. I think it's more of a full weekend system than a 3 hour game one though
@@NapoleonicWargaming It can be a full weekend but that does depend on the size of battle we want to do, generally, my mate and I used to use the WRG points system this as you mentioned provides balanced opposing forces and can be over in 3-4 hours (depending on how bad my dice throws are) as snake eyes seem to be my jam. I have never played black powder, it looks interesting as once I have based my troops that will be the last time as it is a mammoth task doing 4 armies.
Now im very new to Napoleonic gaming, which has been the best thing for me in recent times. Personally i believe events like Under Eagles to Glory is the best type of events to get new players into the game. It certainly motivated me like no other game to not not only attend but get an army built and painted. Im already planning my next army. The atmosphere at tourney style events that i have atteneded in other game types left me with a deep regret and a question of why did i waste my time. Its just not been a pleasant experience. The fun factor and just sheer enjoyment was completely missing. I cant recall in recent times being this excited about an event. The general perception of Napoleonics is the amount of miniatures to build and paint which is a fair point but if you are aiming for something.....certainly for me my motivation has never been higher for a project.
