Every time. The new game is the best thing ever for the first month or two, then it absolutely sucks and the previous game that we spent the last two or three years of it's lifespan complaining about is, all of a sudden, so much better because people choose to forget all the jank that was in the previous game at this same point in it's life.
There’s a lot of people who’s primary engagement with games is arguing online. If there’s no drama they get bored and create their own. How to “fix” the game is way more interesting to them than actually playing.
It's wild hearing people complaining about Street Fighter 6 being too offensive focused, because I remember when Street Fighter 4 came out everyone was complaining about it being too defensive focused.
@@seanmcbayDepends on how the offense is. Tekken 8 gets a bit overbearing with 50-60%+ combos and spam for something that focuses on having cool stuff like sidesteps, KBD, low parry, hop kick, etc. as options, but not like T7's turtling and poking was fun either. SF6 is nice because parry is just as strong for keeping turns as it is for taking back and can result in really fast or really slow matches and leaving it up to the players and their styles. Something like samsho is really fun with it being intended to be slow and with its theme'ing. Guilty gear xrd at least in terms of offense is nice but it punishes in dumb ways like negative penalty even though it has chip damage, which just makes a rich get richer when playing against new and low level players which will then just spam when defending instead of learning when to hit. Tag fighters are really cool with offense mixing and matching teams to make the best offense and defense with characters you like.
Players often do not know what they want. And while I'm usually bad a offensive games, I heavily prefer a game that wants to engage you than one where you're just sitting around waiting for something to happen. The most optimal way to play in past games where to either find a character who easily breaks defense or play ultra defensively, just waiting for your opponent to get impatient. And that drove me up a wall. It's wild to me that these people are complaining about offense when they were complaining about how defensive these games used to be. All of a sudden, SFV is good, the same SFV they were complaining to hell and back about being too defensive.
I think we already passed Old Game vs New Game part 10 years ago and now we're at part 20. Soon we will get part 21 when Akuma + major balance patch released and then continue with part 22 when Garou 2 or Project L released.
"Fighting game developers will make a game, it will turn into something that they were not ready for. You get it into the hands of 10,000 people, 100,000, a million people, and all of a sudden, people are just doing things that you are not ready for." Couldn't explain it any better for MORTAL KOMBAT 1.
I think mvc3 was redeemed by having extremely deep and unique characters. sf6 is making an effort back in that direction, but sf5 was literally just "here's the poke you do into v trigger and then you do a free mixup" and there was just nothing else to learn
@@shaolinotter Maybe, but not many really gave it the time of day until UMvC3. Which kind of furthers Max’s point about how it’s not until the later versions of some games that people really like them and talk about for years later. SF 3, 4, 5 Tekken 7 GG Xrd FighterZ Etc.
100% this. I remember the hype for MvC3 coming out and then when it did, it wasn't the most well received. It was that baby version of MvC2 with easy execution, insane damage and a comeback mechanic that made people feel comebacks had no merit or skill anymore, like when people think back to Justin Wong's cyclops 1v3 comeback. The game was busted with the DLC glitch, people did not like how strong Wesker felt for how easy he was, and ultimately, everybody rolled their eyes when a dark phoenix appeared. Then people complained a lot because UMvC3 came out not even 12 months after MvC3, and I knew a good few people who refused to buy the next version because they felt like they were getting ripped off, especially when the netcode still wasn't rollback. Ultimately, every time a new iteration of a franchise comes out, there is going to be some resistance- some unwarranted, but definitely some very warranted too. This will happen with every 'generation' of fighting games and fighting game players.
Yeah I mean UMVC3 and MVC3 compared to MVC2 was piss easy. Comebacks were pretty common due to X factor so it makes sense that people playing marvel 2 for a decade and a bit would complain
This sort of discourse is just part of the circle of life in fighting games. Whenever the time comes and a Street Fighter 7 or Tekken 9 drops, people will reminisce about how the previous title was better, conveniently forgetting the many grievances that were prevalent in the early meta.
It ain't just fighting games. Heck, it ain't just games as well. Anything that was successful and got a sequel, will go through this exact process or something very similar. People love to complain, that's all there is to it.
@@Ryu_Makkuro exactly. Look at the star wars prequels. Those movies were hated by virtually everyone for YEARS, and now most modern star wars fans would say those are their favorite movies in the franchise. The past is always looked at through rose tinted glasses, and that applies doubly for previous FG installments.
It'll be totally valid by Tekken 9 because Harada and Murray will finally achieve their dreams of making a 2D fighter. I like 2D fighters and I play them but I don't think that's what people come to Tekken for.
People need to hear this, because Mk1 is being treated like it’s the first time in history a game made a misstep. A lot of vanilla games have glaring issues. Mk1 is similar to sfv release but by the end of it regained favor by the end with most. We gotta give it time.
On the flipside, it's the only modern fighting game of the current era to get a Nintendo Switch port. I feel bad for the Switch missing out on Street Fighter 5 and 6, as the series has a history of skipping Nintendo home consoles after Alpha 2 on SNES.
Also T8 is the first iteration that has gone straight to console. Previous versions always had a good few years in arcades which meant they were essentially getting roughly 2 years of testing from the public before hitting consoles.
@@nerooyeye2196 you don’t even know me 🤣😂🤣. I never had a PS4 and I don’t go to arcades often. There barely are any. Haven’t seen Tekken in an arcade since Tag 2.
More often than not I feel like it's a matter of I was really good at the last game that I played for 7000 hours and now I'm not as good at this new game and so I don't like it. Of course some of the things that people say are true and are legitimate but other times they just go way overboard and are like the game is a complete dice roll a new player can beat a pro 50% of the time it's like that's not how it works.
Yes because the large amount of 3s players or +R players who have only picked up the game in the past 5 years are doing it purely for nostalgia of a game they never played
Tekken 8 is the first fighting game since Tekken 3 that I actually have fun with. It feels very accessible with it´s arcade tutorial and other elements to the point where I got myself a Kitsune and managed to play and learn one single character for 70 hours without getting bored. Even playing ranked (never went online in other fighting games). That´s a first for me with this type of games and I feel like a lot of new players feel the same.
I’m too old to care about this type of conversations anymore , especially when people just point to top players “omg X said this game actually sucks”. No way! The guy that makes a career out of this doesn’t like the new game because the systems he used to dominate in the past game aren’t available just as they were before? I feel all the critiques that we should be talking about like questionable monetization, time between patches, etc. is more important with the way fighting games are now. “Back in my day you used to actually fight in the arcade because games were harder” who cares bro?
This is the correct take. I feel too old for this as well and I'm only 26. I've been following the FGC since MvC3 and I think I've seen enough to know that this is not really a valid discussion. Maybe it's just due to the growth in popularity bringing in new people who have yet to witness and understand this cycle
@@TaulantDomi Great observation. It's probably related to monetization of content creation. DooD was the only one I saw like a decade ago even talking about fighting games. People saw him make money off it and then a bunch of other people jumped on, and yeah sure there's a real online FGC content scene now. Been there for awhile. But tbh I don't really know the playerbase is so high, people like watching sure but the actual player numbers are pretty bad especially after initial honeymoon phase, as compared to popular genres like FPS, MOBA etc.
I think finding fun from old and new comes to differ on what you feel the game than being a oldie hardcore fan to dump the new gen game entirely, it's like the boomer meme again but in FGC levelheads.
Honestly to me it really depends on the franchise Like I can fully admit that say, psychonauts 1 is better then 2, but at the same time I can turn around and say that something like gravity rush 2 is WAY better then 1 I don't want people to dogmatically worship one side or the other, I want them to be honest with themselves
Old games are just inherently different to new games in the way they are designed, it’s not about nostalgia, I would say 95% of people on guilty gear +R or 3rd strike only picked it up in the past 5 years.. wayyy after the game got usurped by a sequel
I can, fully believe, that we're doing this again. If only for the fact that fighting games are individually played for so long, so many years, that new people come in and have zero idea how the old ones are played, and the vets have been with the older games for so long, it's hard to not have a bias to said old game if they've already stuck with it, and it's nigh impossible to not be perceived to have a bias towards it by others anyway. It's a losing argument, because neither side is approaching it in good faith or sufficient knowledge.... it eventually comes around to "like the thing that I like, or PERISH". If that's not what you're thinking, that's what the other side is assuming of you anyway... because, as the clip, and podcast with Chris T and Ryan Hart explained, for as mentally solid you need to be to grapple with the depth of these games in order to compete at a high level..... there's a lot of brainless bums that give the FGC a bad name by treating this like a high school clique. Drama is for bitches, simply, do, better.
Couldn’t agree better! The FGC is a community that just likes to be so extra. I have a few problems with modern FG’s but I still adjust to the new game mechanics and just hope that it won’t get to brained downed.
"Neither side"? More often than not, it's the public veterans who are usually making arguments that are not in good faith. But what annoys me more about this is that Capcom already let it known that changes are coming yet these players are making a big stink over nothing.
But thats the whole purpose of fighting games to trash talk and build adrenaline, ultimately the point of a fighting game is literally to kill each other.
Its not wrong to enjoy complex and harder games. I hate these mind numbing modern games. I seriously do not know how ppl say they are good games. Addicting maybe like any other pvp game, but not good. They need to realize it's over though. I un followed all fgc stuff except Max for now. I didn't buy any fg after strive. In gaming in general I have stopped buying these new aa/AAA games since like 2013. The casualized redundant game dev trend got big during that time.
This short term memory is not exclusive to the FGC, I can't wait for monster hunter wilds just to hear people complaining about the lack of master rank for the fourth game in a row
I remember the worst moment in mh series history which was pre iceborne mh world where every content creator, player and their mothers were tirelessly complaining about lack of endgame and convinced the game would never get a g rank update
It's funny that for how objectively these games are focused on offense, it's also the most I've enjoyed defense too. Drive Impact/Perfect Parry, Deflect Shield, most string enders being minus on block, etc.
One thing I've been wondering about lately is why is it that in a current age where plenty of great older games are getting either remasters or fully-fledged remakes, why have we not gotten many Fighting Game remasters or remakes??? Yes there was the very solid Capcom Fighting Collection that released a while back and Virtua Fighter 5 got a remaster as well plus the long-awaited Marvel vs Capcom 2 re-release which unfortunately was only an Arcade 1-Up exclusive but other than those 3, we've not gotten much remasters of other FGs. How come there's never been a compilation collection of all the older Mortal Kombat or Tekken games similar to what Capcom did with Street Fighter 30th Anniversary? Heck we've never even gotten a FG remake period & there are a few older FGs out there that I feel deserve to be remade & improved upon. Just a thought.
Because most old games have rollback and with arguably better lobby functionality than a remake would actually have via fightcade. Hell even arcsys has updated their legacy games with rollback The only game that needs a legacy revival is tekken because legacy tekken is Barron compared other franchises
Some people in the FGC have purely selective memory and/or can't make up their damn minds about what they want. I don't even play Street Fighter or MK and I remember people complaining about SF5 and MK11 *slowing things down* from the previous entries, but now we have some of those same people saying current entries are too aggressive? Speaking as a Tekken guy, even if we ignore that Tekken 8 in a much better state, right now, than Tekken 7 was at this same point, are we just going to forget about how much Tekken 8 has already changed? You had two Heat Dashes in the early builds, the bullshit Kazuya string in the CNT and the CBT, Claudio's absurd damage in the CBT, changes to combos in Heat, etc. We go through this same damn cycle where the old game is suddenly so much better than the new, when most of the time the new one is a noticeable improvement over the previous game.
Street Fighter 6 has World Tour. That alone is worth at least a reason to buy the game. And, since it's Capcom, it gave me flashback vibes of both Street Fighter Alpha 3 and Rival Schools (the japanese version had a Daily Life/School Sim Mode).
I think the reason why people are looking at older fighting games is because they feel that new games invalidate old playstyles. SF4 is a good example of promoting a multitude of playstyles and moment to moment decisions. For every justin wong and snake eyes patiently waiting for thier mortgage to be paid off, there is koji kog turning his arcade stick so hard he falls out of his seat. The important part is that its the players decision not the games. Also why do people think that its going to continue for the same reason they were made in the first place. Its not for the benefit of the people who enjoy the game or for its health. Its made for the people who watch it. Which is profoundly bizzare and unique to digital content.
Easily. I mostly see “you only beat me because of new mechanics, i’m so much better than you” boomers whining while self reporting that they are too bad to learn new mechancis
I have always loved fighting games from an extremely casual POV. Since I was a kid. I was never gonna "git gud" as they say. But I love the game and learn to hold my own. My favorite fighters of all time are MvC2 and Darkstalkers 3. And MvC2 is ALWAYS gonna be loved by the community for it's roster alone. But it has aged, and not in all good ways. Despite that, we all still love it and it's meta as it is. That said... SF6 is the first fighter I've played since that REALLY grabbed me. In the end, everyone's gonna like these games for different reasons... they're all great. For their own reasons. Being a part of a major tournament or not is moot. The communities exist for all of them. That's what it's about.
this nonsense with the fgc has been going on since sf4/t6 days...now don´t get me wrong the whole battle pass and in-game shop stuff is wack (but ultimately don´t affect the gameplay in any way)...one day it´s the greatest fighting game of all time and the next day it´s the worst and a couple years later it´s the greatest again...I feel like people just reach their current ceiling and immediately start whining about characters being broken
I only spend 10 minutes on Twitter each day instead of scrolling for hours. I feel more refreshed than distressed that I didn't know there was another FGC discourse.
Oh boy a two parter?!?! Definitely a good take on everything that is happening. I applaud you taking the time to discuss this. I'm sick of all the hate (again much of it warranted) for what I'm experiencing and considering as a pretty fun time in my existence. Having T8 vanilla is so fun and volatile
this is prevalent in all of gaming. people posting about " i wish we can get a decent game like we used to." or" can i get a game without dlc and actually complete" or other dumb shit. there are SO many fantastic games coming out. people are way too nostalgic and way too picky. its infuriating. the type of people who say" theres nothing to play" who probably only play fortnite and cod are the worst.
I think what annoys me the most, is when people say a newer game is bad, and then act like the older games that they love are practically flawless. It happens so much with beloved games, like Lego Star Wars or Kingdom Hearts. Or Sonic. Even though in some of the beloved games in those series, I have a number of problems with. And you'll just get some funny looks if you either criticize and/or express distaste in more beloved games or if you just prefer the newer game to the older one. Newer games can have their fair share of issues too, and people are welcome to dislike them and criticize them. But its a disingenuous double-standard when they just act like older games didn't have their problems too. It's not everyone, but when it does happen, it's irritating.
I love his this conversation will always crop up every few years. I remember when I started in '09 on Vanilla SFIV and it was so frequent to see "09'er" used in an extremely derogatory manner, talking about how anybody starting in '09 was only playing fighting games due to how companies had made them drastically easier for the younger noobs to even grasp how to play the genre. Now here we are in 2024, and no doubt there are a lot of '09ers around that have said or thought similar things. It's just like in real life when you hear an older adult compare their times to yours, and how yours are drastically easier, or whatnot. The cycle will never end that's for sure. And naturally as I'm an '09er, SFIV for life >: )
Agree with Max. These vanilla versions of SF6 and Tekken 8 are way ahead of where the old vanilla games were. They almost feel as polished as the latest versions of the previous games.
Let's go with MK3 vanilla for example, that wasn't a great version of the game then we got UMK3 then Trilogy. Not the most balanced at all but dammit, were they fun
On the kind of non-issue of fighting games being easier now: could we consider that the teaching tools of internet guides, community spaces like Discord servers, player practice spaces, and in game learning resources are better for learning an improving at a game now then they were before? I’m not saying things weren’t lost in the transition into this online era, but as a community of communities between casuals, tournament players, and developers in different games we’ve done a good job at building a space where someone can improve from getting their teeth kicked in, to expressing themselves in competition.
I didn't play sfiv ranked, the first game i started to play ranked was sfv and got to platinum, then my friend got me into Tekken 7 and I got to red ranks I think (just below Tekken Ruler or Tekken king idk it's not very high), but I came back to street fighter when 6 was released and I love it more than any other fighting game I've played, the combos are fun and easy to do, yet the skill expression is still present I feel like people just get salty cause they lose to somebody who started playing sf6 as his first game and is beating them and they are like "yea you got carried by the game, if we were playing sf4 or sf5 I'd smoke you", same thing happened in sf5 and probably even in sf4, people get salty cause they put a lot of hours into a game that ceases to exist and then get beat by players that don't even know if previous releases existed
As Max mentions, when Street Fighter 4 first came out, there was a LOT of discourse over not just it, but people who got into fighting games with SF4. The term "09-ers" got thrown around a ton, and it was NOT a friendly nickname. A similar thing happened with Marvel vs Capcom 3 when compared to MvC2, where the term "11-ers" came about a little.
As someone who's been playing fighting games since the 80's, the thing about most fighting games back in those days was that when we played them. We played them only amongst our friends who would come over and play with us or we go to the Arcade and played other people but when you play in the Arcade. You didn't really have the know how about how to do special moves and combos because you put in your 25 cents or your 50 cents and you played the game and if you lose you either play again and again until you run out of your allowance and take your long walk home of shame. As the years went by we started having tournaments which then made the game accessible. This was more around the Street Fighter 3 era. I loved Street Fighter 3 New Gen when I first saw it in a shop that had Arcade games and I was the only one who really played it. 2nd Impact came out and more people played it. I mained Sean in that version and I knew combos because I read EGM magazines. EGM was the only way you get to learn about these games and all the cheat codes etc. Then there were Gamefan magazines as well that gave you tips on strategies but not everyone bought those Magazines unless they were hardcore fans. Some people had 12 month subscriptions coming into the mail. When 3rd Strike came out no one really wanted to play it until the Evo moment of Justin Won vs Daigo. People were mostly playing Street Fighter Alpha and Marvel vs Superheroes and then MVC 1. I didn't even know tournaments was being held for the game, it was a girl from elementary school who showed me the video and that moment, I said yo, I got learn how to play this game but the game was hard to find. I didn't get it until the SF anniversary edition came out and it was a good port for the PS2. Thing is now why new players are good at fighting games is because they have a lot of resources to learn how to play the game compared to back in the day. Back then we only had EGM and Gamefan and Gamepro magazines. Now players got the internet, Gamefaqs, RU-vid, and a whole set of tournament videos to watch and learn and lets not forget they have practice mode and online play to further train. Old games didn't have these things. So I don't believe games were harder back then, there just wasn't many resources for players to learn back then. Nowadays those same new players are getting good at older fighting games over on Fightcade because they have the resources now to learn and the people to help them practice and compete with and there is also practice mode implemented through modding the roms for Fightcade. Anyway sorry for the long ass comment. I don't think fighting games right now are getting easier either. SF6 is draining because there is so much to keep up with during matches. Only thing easier about SF6 is modern controls but most people using MC's have the same strategy in my experience because they just wanna exploit quick executions. Modern Controls not really that new though. These controls scheme been in SF Alpha and Marvel/X-men vs Capcom games since the beginning I believe. I also remember playing SNK games and to me those games were a bit harder because of the motions for super moves.
Idk if max will say it in the next video, but the reason more newer players are getting good nowadays is because fighting games lately are more accessible. It can be cause games are easier, they offer more tools to help players learn, or the fact people can get coaching or look up combo vids. Its not a bad thing at all
Because the games are designed in a fundamentally different way, old games are simple, very straight forward while new games have more complexity and feels diluted. Lacking in the strong fundamental core. You can play tekken tag 1, ST, kof 98 and get how it’s played and how to consistently win in 5 minutes, but your barrier to get there is fundamentals and execution. New games have so much going on that you are constantly fearing 50 different ways to instantly lose the game or some gimmick you didn’t lab. I like simple games, and simple FG’s don’t exist anymore
@Shodan130 what you said was an oxymoron. Dilution removes any and almost all complexity. To dilute is to strip away to its base compound. So these recent games are so divoid of complexity that they are stripped down versions and streamlined compare to their older iteration. Or they are so complex that they are completely unrecognizable from their simpler iteration. It can't be both.
@@Sammy_X7 I can keep up well enough to win my local and get paid. But as you said I’m old which is true. Locals pay out worse now than they did 10 years ago. So why play a game I don’t find fun like sf6 when I can play something I find fun like ST ? Playing a game you don’t like to fit in with the Fgc is mental illness
@@SleepingBook what I mean is diluted from its fundamental core, sf2hf is very much a game laser focused on neutral, same with a game like tag 1, tag 1 is a game that’s 100% focused on movement based neutral. Compared to their newer games sf6 and tekken 8 that focus on the fundamentals of the game is diluted with boatloads of more mechanics and systems. These mechanics and systems make the game more complex but also makes it less focused on one particular thing like old games would be, hence what I mean by diluted
As an old FG fogie myself, I am in 100% agreement with Max. FG devs NEVER get “it” right on the first go around. Especially Capcom lol. And it’s not just FG devs either. Do y’all remember the dumpster fire that was vanilla Diablo 3? People are just impatient and have no idea how good they’re eating nowadays.
He makes perfect sense. People act like the old games were the best but everyone forgets vanilla games. People also act like old fighting games were king, no they weren’t. They were some of the most broken games.
@@Shodan130 low tier high tier dichotomies will always exist (plus capcom's money being a toxic element as it encouraged people to play top tiers which had both negative and postive effects on the meta) But there's a difference between the low tier high tiers of 6 compared to 3, where the low tiers just straight we're missing essentials every character should have and the high tiers were these well rounded characters who had an absurd strength that would really exist in an extremist specialized character Hell for all of its hate crimes, 4 without yun and Elena was fairly well balanced, there are characters who straight up feel that they're playing with half a kit but the majority were competently playable Same can be said if season 5 sf5 before Luke came in and ruin it for everyone Tl/dr: perfect balance is a meme, the game not being 100% balanced doesn't mean that it has bad balance
@@doctordice2doctordice210 yea for sure, but when t7 gets WORSE balance Over time and patches rather than better. Capcoms financial based balancing (which namco does way worse if you look at tekken and dbfz) and arcsys huffing glue in the dev room. I don’t think it’s that compelling of a reason. Like sure 3s has bad balance, but games like tekken 5DR, sf4 and the like have decent balance, arguably better than what we are seeing now
@@Shodan130 I disagree SF6 doesn’t have any characters like Seth on released in SF4. Like it was mentioned in the video, no one remembers vanilla SF4. Seth had so many nerfs. He had moves removed out of his kit. He even had interactions removed from his kit. Like being unable to use his ult if his fireball was on the screen.
I feel like as a person that is higher level casual but never really played competitively, most of this is just, respectfully, pro players yapping. I feel like my honeymoon periods for SF6, T8, even GG Strive have passed a while ago, but I'm still having fun in these games. They feel like truly new games with new game plans that change everything compared to just recreating the same style of game with the same way of playing. The games feeling fresh will feel weird to pro players cuz they're different, and honestly I think that's good
Especially when THEORETICAL new games are in the discussion, such as a new Capcom vs SNK, which has one of the more interesting discussions around it and how a new one would play out; given how extremely specific the first two were in terms of roster selection and gameplay approach; should CvS be a medley of the more recent games, keep to the old guard, or go full on Marvel?
I have been a fighting game fan all my life, I wish I had the money for Tekken 8 but atm can't comment as I don't have but SF6 I am in love with the game. I would love a Primal Rage reboot or remaster and Killer Instinct a new game would be great. Tried getting into MK1 but I find my skill issue preventing me enjoying the game, SF6 I feel I can find a level that suits me. I play a lot of other games so don't sit and grind fighting games enough to get to master but I love playing SF6.
Rising does this too! The reality is just that there *seems* like a lot more complaining *because* fighting games are actually much bigger than they were. More voices, and more engagement with those voices, makes the talking rise up to the talk and reach everybody. it Is great right now imo, and that's coming from me as a traditionally defensive "wait for the other guy to screw up" player. I'm that Rose or Athena person Max hates
Yeah, toxic as hell After looking at the statistics, I just said "SF6 is indeed very balanced" after one game and someone complained and my account was blocked.
Personally I can’t tell if it’s just nostalgia or the way serotonin decreasing with age, but the older fighting games just feel like they have a staying power about them. I support new fighting games and I’ll play them for a few weeks, but then they go up on a shelf, while I fire up SFA3 for the billionth time.
I think it's just what got people into the genre or a game early into their like of FGs. I started FGs near the launch of Strive. My current 'main games' are Strive, KOF XV, SF6, and Tekken 8. I've tried some of the previous entries and other franchises (UMVC3, BBCF, Skullgirls, etc) and I've had a lot of fun, but Strive feels very comfortable and I suspect that it's because that's what got me into FGs when previously I thought I didn't like the genre.
Selective amnesia. First off, you are remembering the classics. Not Time Killers, Criticom, Karnov's Revenge, Agressors of Dark Combat, or any of the metric ton of garbage that came out back then. Those didn't have staying power of any sort. Second, back then, we all were less discerning and more accepting of a game's flaws. Nowadays, we scrutinize games closer and expect more from them.
@@mappybc6097 I think it runs a little deeper than that, after I put some further consideration into it. Like if I really think about it, I feel in love with the alpha series sprite work that went the whole way up to mvc2. I loved the anime design for all of the marvel characters at that time and was enthralled with them the moment COTA dropped. I didn’t even fully understand the mechanics of the crossover games as a kid, not to the degree that I do now. However. The thing that stands out to me as a huge difference is that I knew each character and was passionate about finding out their stories and endings. Odd as it may seem, I feel that most of these games I’ve stopped caring about the characters. The stories have gone on too long and have grown too convoluted. It’s sort of the argument many fans had against MVCI in that, they replaced magneto with some other character that eight-way dashing and so the “function” was the same and it’s like, I don’t care about the function. I care about magneto as a character. I think a lot of that has dropped off for me. Even guilty fear which has always been crazy story-wise has just gotten so ridiculous that you need an encyclopedia attached to the game to know what’s going on and it sort of takes me out of it. So weird as it is to say; I wish fighting games stories were as a good as they used to be. I know the storytelling mechanics have gotten substantially better and deeper with story modes but, I’ll always just miss simple arcade ladders with a three panel ending with cool artwork. And unlockables upon completion a la tekken 3 rather than dlc on EVERYTHING
@theAshesofDecember1 Fair enough. Personally? I found out more about Ryu as a character in SF6 than in the past 35 years of SF lore. It's just delivered in a very unconventional way, which is a shame because anyone who skips World Tour will miss out on some pretty interesting interactions with the characters they love.
@@theAshesofDecember1 I agree with you on not caring about the story anymore. With Street Fighter, it sure didn't help how they kept jumping back and forth in the timeline. I lost track of which game came first in the story.
I'm not hating on old games, because I love old fighting games: but SF6 is hype. It has so much theme, style, and aesthetic integration in not only it's music, graphics, but also its gameplay. There's no part of this game that doesn't achieve this integration and it's super impressive. But watching rounds hit PANIC MODE when people hit burn out is HYPE AF. That's not saying there aren't some annoying interactions with this (Rashid level 2 for example), but this volatility is fun. That being said I expect season 2 patch to seriously address things like roster balance and some sharp edges. SF6 is my favourite fighting game in forever, and I was there for SF2, Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting.
They aren't necessarily petty, they have to do with what makes the game enjoyable for many people, and if there are legit criticisms to be had, then it is worrying to people the direction that the game can go. And with how successful the new ones have been, comes the risk that the devs will be more complacent about fine-tuning the gameplay, compared to games like SF3 where the failure of it is what pushed them to change it into something better
Not fighting game related, but the whole new players being better now vs then makes sense. Reminds me how bronze and silver players in league of legends are able to execute mechanics that PRO players were not able to do 10 years ago. I think a large part of that is just massive access to everything that we have now, and the ever evolving player base. Kids as young as 12 doing stuff in games I myself now (30s) could never hope to do, and honestly couldn't do even when I was their age. It's impressive really imo.
I'd say because Tekken and SF were more traditional with their gameplay compared to MK. Aside from REALLY basic stuff, MK since 9 has changed drastically between games, any skill from previous titles doesn't really carry over. Basic strings and combos change a lot, property of special moves (like Scorpion's spear in MK11) while some basic stuff on Tekken hasn't changed. And MK1 is getting more flak due to how WB and NRS are handling monetization and how they planned the retention of players which feels more anemic compared to MK11.
Street Fighter III was released alongside the SFA and SFEX series, so I’d say having three concurrently running series at the same time could not sink a franchise. SFIII by itself without Alpha probably would have done but it didn’t happen that way. SFIII caused no harm to the Alpha series by existing, and the series continued getting new games, evolving into Capcom vs SNK. Although a crossover, they are still practically Street Fighter games.
@@M1d32 That’s not how it was. A bomb wouldn’t have received an update (2nd Impact) then a true sequel (Third Strike). And I already demonstrated that the Street Fighter series continued during and after SFIII with other games up until the early 2000s, a few years after Third Strike. The correct answer for Street Fighter going on hiatus for years was the market shifting to 3D games, and Capcom’s attempt at a 3D fighter (Capcom Fighting All Stars) was an internal flop that never saw release. That has nothing to do with the quality or reception of SFIII. The PS2 era was a rough time for all fighters and I think Capcom were right to sit it out. And anyway, despite its poor sales, Third Strike is actually a genuinely good game that Max often returns to and speaks highly of. It didn’t “bomb so hard” due to poor quality.
@@Martynde they tried to salvage it twice leading to no new Street Fighter games in a decade. A franchise that they released spinoffs and new additions to with Street Fighter II like snow dropping from the sky in winter. Very textbook definition of a bomb. Edit: PS2 era was fine with Tekken games, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive on the Xbox. Even the Mortal Kombat games kept coming out despite their stinker after stinker.
I’ve been watching you for a while now and I’m not long term subscriber but this was a useful take I’ve been stressing myself about getting a console again so I could get into these games again but now I know I’m gonna wait. True if I want to get in there I should start practicing right away but I got other hobbies and fighting games need to take a backseat to my other goals and interests. Since the stuff is all still vanilla I can jump in later.
Yes, Street Fighter and T8 have more offensive tools, but these games always have an opening phase where aggressive and powerful characters are strong. Good defensive plans take a long time to get crafted. Also, JP?
Im honestly sick and tired of the gaming community, not just the FGC. There is ALWAYS something to complain about. Sometimes it's valid like people complaining about MTX and broken releases, but a lot of the time it's just whining to whine. "THIS GUN IS BROKEN REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME, I DON'T LIKE THIS CHARACTER SO THEY SHOULDN'T EXIST, THE GAME DOESN'T PLAY HOW I LIKE SO IT'S BAD, THIS MAP SUCKS REMOVE IT, THIS CHARACTER IS TOO META, THE DEVS DIDN'T ADD A THING I WANTED SO LET'S HARASS THEM, THE GAME DOESN'T TRY NEW THINGS, EW THE GAME IS TRYING NEW THINGS!!!!" it's so tiring. Can't go anywhere on social media without hearing whining about the things I love.
This always happens. People forget how terrrible Tekken 6 and 7 Vanilla were. Things are going to get patched down, people are gonna adjust and people will forget that this thing happens every time in every game. Old studs dont want to get out of the status quo since it forces them to adjust, but game developers will NEVER adjust to the minority.
I'm someone who's still fairly new to the fighting game genre, it wasn't a genre that I was super into as a kid. Like there are some classic fighting games that I absolutely adore, looking at marvel vs capcom 2 and classic king of fighters (R-2 and 2003 especially) but there is definitely a lot of older fighting games that I just simply can't get into, either that being because of bullshit unfair ai or just mechanics in general. Which is why I love ARC System fighters and fighters made by their sister studios like French Bread, they manage to hit that perfect balance of easy to pick up and play for casuals and hard to master for those who want to go pro
Look, I think what we miss from older games was the engagement to it. We could unlock sick alternate or boss characters and they looked bad ass. I think newer games have better gameplay but when it comes to content the older games like ps2 Era wins
@MegaDarkness5000 That's what adds Replay value. If they don't like it, then they should just pay extra money to immediately unlock everyone, like KOF XIII did.
I like this take! I’ve said the same thing about new fighting games and how they are so aggressive and random but also said that it’s only the beginning. Although I can’t bare to play SF6 at the moment💀 I hope it will get fleshed out in later versions
It's a losing argument because the type of person to go "old thing better" is both ignorant of the past and the future, looking at both through a superficial lens Like a 80's and 90's kids in the 00's weren't listening to plastic beach, fleet foxes, the avalanches, etc they were pretending that Justin Bieber was the only thing the 00's had to offer
I think that we seem to disregard the transitions in technology. What seems better? A console with no way to fix the bugs, or a console with the ability to download updates? It is a petty topic to me because we have the ability to take lessons learned and make something new.
@@doctordice2doctordice210id say there less ignorant and more nostalgic they like old things better ussaly because they were young when old thing came out or if not they at a time of there life they kind of miss which is human people miss were they were young and they tend to put things that they enjoyed when they were young on a pedistol
@@addex1236 see, I Sympathize there but I don't know how that translates to being willfully blind and unfairly reductionist to the present There's a difference between reminiscing of fond times gone by vs treating the word "modern" like it's a shameful slur and taking what you have for granted
Volatile experiences seem much more fun to me. Nothing stopped me from diving into fighting games more than realizing I had to do less fighting and more blocking to be good.
4:15 this is true outside of fighting games as well. one perfect example would be tony hawks pro skater. that developers that made that series made it with a very simple idea, make a skateboarding game that represents skateboarding. the developers never implemented mechanics or designed levels that inhibited combos because they never thought players would play that way. it wasnt until after the first game's release that they started seeing players doing crazy combos and realized "okay this is how people want to play so lets build upon that in the next game". every game that came after the first one has been about finding new ways that build upon the way people play. where games are is usually a response to what the playerbase does. if fighting games have become more offense based its because thats what the majority of fighting game players prefer. fighting game players dont want slow methodical matches that are wars of attrition. they want fast short explosive matches that can end in an instant.
Homogenization thing ends up being a solution to let every character be able to win in a game where the win condition is static and the game flow is stable, many things follow similar rules like how in SF6 most supers of the same level have very similar use. The importance of frame data, the very few ways to do effective pressure, very few ways to do good oki etc, and they all lead to the same place, when your character is unable to do some of that it feels like their road towards the same destination is simply longer than the other characters. Generally the neutral ends up being where the gameplay is more varied since there's more interaction and a lesser amount of "right choices". If I were to guess, I don't think people complain about neutral skips because they skip neutral unfairly, but because they end up skipping the part of the game that is the most fun for them. The one where most of the real-time problem-solving thinking happens. There are many benefits to this sort of stuff but also many setbacks. This is inevitable when you make choices in game design, every choice to reach some objective will have to abandon something else to a degree. In older fighting games you'd more often see characters that played by different rules. It made it more varied but there's the problem of forcing players to play dramatically different games depending on who they're fighting against, and also the more out there a character is the more likely they are to be either too strong because they don't obey the same rules as their opponents or extremely weak because they're supposed to try to win in a different way in a game that makes it way too difficult. Balancing games like that is so much more difficult. Of the games the have released since SFV came out, I'd say that Smash Ultimate was the most successful in keeping characters dramatically different from each other while maintaining a decent degree of balance and character representation in competition, even though it's one the few that kept the practice of making clone characters. But smash has the unique advantage here in the fact that the win condition as well as many game aspects are variable, the very structure of the game includes variance in everything, it's a game system that encourages varied ways to play in its core. This might be controversial I feel like one path that these games can take to diminish this is to disincentivize combos, but then again, you'd be sacrificing the immediate satisfaction of doing combos for the sake of another aspect of gameplay. There's no right answer in these problems, depends on what kind of game you want to make.
I've always found defense more interesting than aggression, rushdown & mixup. Grapplers are an awesome blend of defensive play WHILST moving in (that's how i look at it). But with aggression emphasised it feels like grapplers are weaker than ever across all games now. Also a lot of ppl find zoners lame and they're like pure defence. Attack = Fun Defend = Lame
SF6 and TK8 are adaptations of KoF mechanics into their core gameplay, but they're partial/incomplete. KoF has the Blowback Attack (C+D) which is the zoner-equalizer that you don't see in the current mechanic crop. KoF also builds grapplers with movement options; which is the other main factor that makes it different.
I agree I feel like the crying at the direction fighting games are going is annoying. That lame and overly defensive style of play is not favored by the majority of players. The games won't get sales for being boring. The fast paced gameplay is entertaining and fun. The idea that players are only good because the games are easier is silly. The players now if they had the same access to information and tools for older games as cvs2, 3rd strike, gg, and tekken. They'd still be just as good then as they are today. RU-vid and hitboxes changed the game.
