Can we FIX this BUTCHERED Jeep Timing Job?? (Part 2 - P0018 Correlation) 

If those reluctor wheels were that hard to adjust...what the hell did the mechanic do to get them out of whack??!

this is why pine hollow and south main auto are my go-to channels for learning new things

What a solution. Saving your customer thousands and giving the vehicle best attempt to run without error. NPR KING. LONG LIVE KING IVAN, repairer of the unrepairable, wizard of the diagnosis, and teacher to the many.

A genius who understands the workings of modern engines perfectly 👍

You could have maybe measured the diameter of the shaft (where your reference dot is) and drawn it out on a piece of paper. Then draw two lines 10 degrees apart with a protractor, and then you could have measured the exact distance that the dot needed to move and got it right the first try, without having to crack open the cover again (if you did, I'm not sure yet-- I'm only at 9:30).. Or just use formula for arc length for 10 degrees: 2πr(10/360) .. Or you could have gotten fancy and used mil Radians or MOA (minute of angle) from the firearms world. :) ....... I think maybe you would have to cut that distance in half though, since it takes 2 revolutions of the crank for the cam to spin once. So your dots have to be very precise-- because every mm that you move on the cam, it will read 2 mm difference on the crank signal. Interesting. Not simple

At this point I have to ask myself; what has Keith NOT seen? Amazing dude there.

Hi ivan. You mentioned you might have to weld the tone rings. I'm wondering if welding would cause a change in the strength of the magnetic fields of the tone ring magnets or worse, demagnetise them? I don't know, that's a bit above my pay grade. Anyone want to chime in on that one? Just can't get my head around how that shop managed to shift those rings? Must have been some sereious mishandling going on there. By the way, great case study!

I think the customer should go back to the other shop even if they refuse to give any money back. Maybe the mechanic who screwed up the cam timing would learn something from his mistake.

Yup both cams...note to self....don't doubt myself. 😆😅 How likely would it be that both would have moved!! The tech must have been pretty rough with those cams. Love your work Ivan.

Two shifted reluctor wheels : what are the odds of that ! - I wish we could ascertain the details leading to this undeniably wacky mishap . I’m so curious . Hat tip to ‘ya Ivan ! Great diagnostic skills and tenacity !! Enjoy the satisfaction that comes from such a conquest . 👊🏼

Most of us are ecstatic if we get thru one real diag job once in a while...ivan does this every week...damn. there's definitely levels to this!

Ivan, I think you should have been a doctor... Your amazing! I love that your willing to try things that most people wouldn't even think of. Its also great that you have a few mechanics to bounce your ideas off from to reassure you, your on point. So impressive, when most people will throw parts at a problem and still can't fix it. You fix so many issues with no parts required. I Can't wait until the next video to see what hurtle's you have in front of you. Great videos! ✌

You're so good with what you do. Cant even imagine recording a video while driving and taking diagnostics! Cool! God Bless you for being honest and true to your customers. More power to you and your shop!

I just watched part one, and there was no part 2 yet... 😢, then five minutes later this pops up. YES!!! 🎉

Definitely one of your top 5 hacks. Thanks Ivan!

Ivan, it seems everything is holding together. I was holding my breath on this one. Great job. Appreciate you taking us through this one. Thanks for Sharing!

Gm has a bulletin for certain 1.4 ecotecs where a defect in the vaccuum pump will actually make the gear come apart, the broken pieces will get wedged in the reluctor wheel on the exhaust cam which will cause the reluctor to rotate. Leading to a hard start or no start. Its crazy how easily the reluctor wheel can be rotated

Ivan, I have met what I thought were some pretty good diagnosticians in my life. That was before I started watching your channel. You are several levels above anyone I have ever met or seen. Methodical, in following the data and doing your own point counter point to analyze the point counter point you present to us and yourself. Anything strange ever occurs to one of my vehicles, I may have to take a trip from South Carolina. Absolutely amazing! Keep up the good work and videos.

The beauty of VVT's, saves on gas and empties your wallet. Great video!

Freaking sweet Diagnosis really like seeing you fix with no parts required as allways amazing skills thanks for sharing.

In the service information dealing with the cams, it says to be careful not to get a magnet around the reluctor wheels because it can cause this problem.

Me and thousands of others (no doubt in my mind about that) love the way your brain works.

Well i just watched Hunt for red October and according to ALEC you did a crazy IVAN on that jeep.I believe the strap wrench on the reluctor wheel is a legit repair.The height difference you spotted was a real good catch.AND yes i can see it making a big difference on the timing of the wheels.The design must be like wheel speed senors,maybe HALL EFFECT???if the last shop mech was ASE certified you may have recourse.I'd go to BBB and ask them.

I finally guessed one correctly. Must have a pretty fine diagnostic mentor is what I would say! Nice work Ivan. 👍👍🇺🇸

Mind blown, if I hadn't seen this, I wouldn't have believed it possible. Looks like the customer chose the right shop to bring his vehicle to. Ivan to the rescue! 👍👍❤

Mow I understand why the service manual says to not even touch the reluctors, that's way too easy to shift.

NICE repair on your part but what a GARBAGE design.

Here's a tech demonstrating the Mopar tool that checks the reluctor wheels for correct clocking: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-S963mhji0IY.html This tech states that he does 3-5 Pentastar top end repairs a week at the dealership he works at, and he is starting to see the slipped reluctor wheel situation more now that the first gen Pentastars are getting to that 10 year old point.

Chrysler does have a tool to check tone wheel for slippage on the camshaft.Personally have never seen a tone wheel that has moved at the dealership.Factory diagnostic flow chart for p0018 does ask to check for slippage with miller tools 2027901090 for left and 2027902090 for the right.Could of saved you the time of taking it apart the last time, but regardless good job going the extra mile and dialing it in anyways.😊

I am currently fighting this same issue on my 2014 wrangler but it’s code p0017 bank 1 sensor 2, after Jeep is warmed up the code will go away when restarted. Started after I did seafoam and then oil change. Replaced both vvt solenoids on bank 1, phasers were good no play in them. One mechanic said sounds like oil pump is going out.

Simply a genius. I just had the rockers/lifters and an intake camshaft done and got the p0017 code. Rough idles during cold starts the smooths out. Just thinking of just doing a whole engine e replacement

Great job Ivan. Fragile reluctor wheel mounting method/design, Chrysler hits another home run with that!!

Solution bring one of the guys there from the shop that fixed it. I mean 🤬 it up. I know u would win the lottery first

I read where the M276 and M278 Mercedes cam reluctor wheels can shift. Mercedes actually lazer scribes the reluctor and cam, so one could return to correct position. One guy said he did return a cam, and spot welded reluctor in place, worked as new. Not just a Russian Hack, just human ingenuity, we all related anyway, Russians and hillbillies alike. Once again, Good Job Ivan.

I may have the reason for the reluctor wheel alignment being out of alignment. We just had to perform the pentastar roller follower and lifter replacement on my daughter's 2016 Jeep JK. And of course it also needed the passenger side intake cam. We ordered a Melling from Rock Auto and low and behold it comes WITHOUT the reluctor wheel. We had aligned it to where we thought it was correctly positioned but after startup and 10 minutes of driving the CEL pops on...... Well I had just watched your video the other day and new what to look for right away. Thanks for the help it's driving without problems now. This might just be how things got mis-aligned on your customer's Jeep.

#RUSSIANGENIUS

I'm struggling to understand how this happened. Those reluctors are not in a spot where it easy to grab them. You'd turn the cam pulley instead..... Plus there is nothing touching them. FYI, you can use Loctite 641 or 609 for friction fit parts.

Reminds me of a stuck cam phaser! I do these engines all the time and imcant see how those reluctor wheels got moved!

Why are those reluctors not keyed or splined onto the cams? That's as bad as a rubber belt that is submersed in the oil on a Ford 2.7 twin turbo.😮 If I remember right it runs the oil pump. These manufacturers, especially American, seem to deliberately sabatoge their engines with some absolutely rediculous failure point.

hard to understand how those reluctors moved seeing what you had to do to move them back. I don't see them moving again.

Great vid , I bet the previous shop would say they where careful with the cams ,the reluctors must have been out from from the factory. Difficult situation for the owner I doubt the reluctors would move you put alot of force to get them to to change position .Recently had catalyst effiency codes on my 2007 falcon work truck with Aussie barra straight six engine , after checking O2 waveforms replaced both oxygen sensors with OEM learning from your experiences luckily it completed the IM cycle and no more codes pending . Watching your vids taught me to not throw parts without data and testing $ 250 for O2 sensors verses $ 600 plus for a cat converter than wouldnt have fixed it anyway thanks Ivan for sharing your knowledge and diag procedures .

I find it really crazy that the reluctor wheels are so sensitive to being handled.

i think it's safe to say that there isn't a single working mechanic that will do what you do for your customers, they will figure a way to do a no parts repair for their own vehicles but for customers vehicles they will do a by the book diagnose, present the customer with a full parts replacement estimate and if the customer won't or can't authorize the full price repair they will push the unrepaired vehicle out the door without giving it a second thought, the fact that the customer already paid over $3k for the same repair wouldn't even phase them. you actually exercise consideration for you customers, that's a trait that has been lost in business especially in the mechanics field......

Since you needed a wrench to move them, it's just very hard to believe they were moved accidentally. I wonder if they somehow had to put in different cams and used cams from a different pentastar model year or vehicle, thinking they'd be the same, but they weren't?

Heat kills magnets - something to bear in mind when welding the (magnetised) reluctor ring.....you made the right call.

1. Topped your own Personal Best Repair (Hybrid Camry). 2. Throw that strap wrench in a box, add instructions, sell it online as a Reluctor Customizer. No competition. Yet.🔥🔥

I have been watching your videos a lot and trying to learn your methods. One thing I still need is Keith's phone number to complete my toolkit, please let me know and thanks for all the great videos!

I would go back and try to get them to pay Ivan's bill, they need a carefully worded legal style letter. They may refuse...probably will...at that stage just drive away.

The only way to make a living repairing autos is to do it correctly. Put new cams in it, get paid, and warranty your work.

I had no idea that those reluctor rings could move like that. Poor design if you ask me. But Ivan had to use a good deal of force to get them to move. So what on earth was the last tech doing to those cams? Any bets that they tried to replace the phasers while the cams were out? Smh... Absolutely amazing job Ivan. Now just for the record, what was it that needed to be done the first time? Replace the rockers?

VALIANT effort Ivan! Those pressed on moveable reluctor wheels are about the most idiotic stupid thing I have ever seen Chrysler do and I have seen a bunch of stupid moves from them over the years. Why in the world didn't they key them onto the cams?? My biggest question is how in the world wasn't this the responsible shop's problem to fix... I can't even fathom what these shops have turned into today from everything I see and hear constantly. I work for myself like you and do not have to deal with the corruption anymore and boy did I see alot of it in my time. Most of the dealers I worked for would ALWAYS take care of the customer to maintain their rating but the problem was the crooked mechanics working against the system constantly.

Nothing, and I mean Nothing, can replace the feeling you get, when cleaning up after others, to make the customer love their stuff again! Virus and spyware removal was rewarding, everytime they thanked me for getting their machine clean, safe, and secure. it's AMAZING 👏👏👏

Amazing, Love the thought process & results are very impressive 👍🏻 Great work BRO, you're AWESOME 😍

I would have never figured this one out. Super job Ivan!

Any question why I tell people that the Fiat engines are junk. My '06 (last year of the 4.0L inline 6) is basically bullet proof.

Hi Ivan ,had a similar issue on a Volvo where the timing error between the cams can only be less than 7 degrees before ecm sees a timingcerror and check light is on, always good idea to use o.e parts , good job.

why if the reluctor wheels are so important to the correct running of the engine why don't they set them up and tach weld into place at the factory?

You might have done this . The diameter X Pi = circumference . If you needed for example 6 degrees , then 6/360 Times the circumference equals the exact amount of shift you required as measured on the diameter. There is no way the prior mechanics created this problem. Considering the part number for all 4 cams are 5184377AH, 78 AH, 79AH and 80 AH, I would say the problem was created in the manufacturing or inventory control portion of the factory, or in distribution misidentification. It could be that the reluctor orientation is the only difference from a Right side intake 5184380AH, to a Left side intake 5184379AH and from a right side exhaust 5184378AH to a Left side exhaust 5184377AH . I would love to see the camshaft detail drawings...,I was a Draftsman for 20 years.

seems like they would be keyed or something. guess they have to be able to move for a fine tune.

If I were the owner, I would go back to the original shop and see what they offered. Years ago, I took my truck to a local shop and told them I had a bad u-joint. I got the runaround and the "you're a woman, what do you know about u-joints?" Foolishly, I assumed they knew more than me, even though I could feel the vibration under the floor. We went ahead and drove the thing on our honeymoon, up to PA and back, 1400 miles all told. When we got back, the vibration had gotten horrible and I took it back to the same shop. To his credit, he called me in to tell me , shamefacedly, that I had been correct: the u-joint had been bad. If we had fixed it then, it would have been just a u-joint, but now it had taken out the transmission seals, the trans was dry and who knew what carnage lay inside? He offered free labor to fix everything in it if I bought parts. I told him that was fine, but I would be buying a rear main seal for the engine and clutch parts, and while we were in there I wanted to do every bit of maintenance that involved pulling the transmission. He agreed. As it turned out, the transmission had no damage. Those little old Mitsubishi transmissions in the Ford Ranger were tough! He replaced all the u-joints, balanced the drive shaft, pressure washed the transmission, put all new seals and gear oil in it, replaced the clutch and the rear main seal in the engine, and all I paid was parts. As it turned out, that led to a life long friendship and relationship. He brought in an excellent young mechanic to work with him soon after, and a few years later he sold the business to him. The young man was as honest as he was, and I've stuck with him all these years (22 and counting). Now he is edging toward retirement and has hired another young man to work with him, and I suspect he may end up taking over the business, and I'll be into a third generation with this business. I'm very loyal when folks do me right, and an apology goes a long, long way. That said, even if they don't do the right thing and make this repair right, they need to be told so they won't pick up camshafts by the reluctor wheel again. If they don't do the right thing, tell them so they have the information, then shake the dust off your feet in protest and go find an honest mechanic. Guys like you, Watch Wes Work, Eric O. and Rainman Ray are restoring my faith that there are honest mechanics out there, other than my guys, and I had very much lost faith in the entire industry.

Hello Iven How come the old garage managed to shift the relucter wheels when you had to use so much force to put them back in place not sure what they were doing to do this as the reluctor wheels.They did not need to be touched or moved in the chain job to me seams like they would of had to do this on purpose with some force which is odd to me . Not doubting you just trying to understand as like you said not loose on cams and on two cams You done a good job thank you for time spent on videos and let us learn with you on the job I struggle with text book but watching you helps me as a 58 year old plant mechanic see things from a modern way with a scope as I have always had older plant through the workshop none electrical type it's like ever video is a school day thank-you once again . From the uk

Ivan is there any possibility that the offset can be shifted with code that may be done at the factory? And so when you put in a different camshaft you get a different offset?

saludos ivan exelente en estos momentos me encuentro con un jeep con el mismo problema en el banco 1 con los codigos p0365 -p0340- p0018- p0019- p0304 pienso que tengo el mismo problema con los reluctores de echo ya verificamos ramal y cambiamos sensores vvt soy de venezuela intentare verificar lo0s reluctores

I like the diag videos, but why the click bait titles? What is butchered about this?

Wow, this was a weird one. Physical timing was dead on but what the ECU was looking at was out of time. Ridiculous that the typical repair would be to replace the cam! I feel bad for the owner in the dough they shelled out before you fixed it. Russian repair! Hearing that again is music to my ears. Very cool diag!

2012 chrysler 300 with the 3.6 it's got a knock tapping ticking.ive replaced rocker arms cam phacers and lifters also. I couldn't find anything wrong with the old parts to begin with.i checked the cam sencers all good what am I missing tell me .I'm stoked about it.can you help me

I loved the way you figure it out, very cleaver an no waist of time!! GREAT JOB!

Always great videos and stunning repairs Ivan. One would think that the engineers would install a permanent two-cent roll pin between the cam and reluctor wheel, to forever cure the issue.

Fantastic ! Отличная работа Иван!

Well done ivan 😀 The design is rather sloppy, surely the designers should of keyed the magnet and shaft. Also allow the engine computer to have a +/- offsette via a scan tool. I don't want much, do i :-D

Damm fine work 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

WTH. I had the clicking sound on my 2014 JK and changed out the rocker arms on the passenger side. Big job but got it done. All was great for a couple months. Then check engine light and traction control light on and jeep sluggish. Threw the scanner on and got a few codes. One of which was the camshaft position sensor. Changed that and jeep ran normal. Then check engine light goes on and I’m getting a P0017. Read that when you change the sensor there is a relearn procedure that needs to be done. Then read that this is BS. Not sure what the deal is. I’ve about had it with this jeep. Never in my life have I owned a vehicle that had to have so much maintence and so many things go wrong despite taking care of it and not beating on jt. I guess I have to take it into a shop and have someone more knowledgeable than me see what the hell the issue is now.

I would say that the other shop used the reluctor rings to move the cams to get the chain on. Probably a good reason to have the propper holding tools.

Ivan I have the same issue on a 2.2 ecotec. I moved the reluctor and now I am in parameters on scope but vehicle will only start with cam sensor unplugged. I no longer have correlation code just cam circuit code because sensor is unplugged. No other codes. Junkyard motor so I really don't have proper VIN but it seems the 2.2 waveforms are the same from 2005-2011.

Hey!!! Awesome Job!! You saved me from buying new cams just because of reluctor issue. Btw which oscilloscope you use?

That's just freekn insane. Gotta be something electrical or computer related. Whenever you really want to F something up, just involve a computer 🤨

dear sir i am a big fan of you, i am a technician in gmc and subaru dealership, i have a one car subaru legacy 2013 model year 2.5 ej engine. after the engine overhaul ac working sometimes,i checked all power supply ground, ECM swap,,ac control module and control swich swaped with good car, checked all power and ground and can wire too, checked scan data (engine and ac) compare with other car found ok, when compressor on its work long time sometimes when accelerating compressor off then does not come back on again for long time, ecm don't command high speed fan relay and ac compressor, engine rpm 1300 to 1400 when ac on found. only 2 fault code allways popup b1608 sunload sensor and b1622 mode door actuator, please give some idea what to do next.

If each cam tooth is 20 degrees, Wonder why pcm would throw a code with less than 10 degrees difference, like this pcm has very low tolerance for cam timing, one would expect a code with the slightest chain stretch. That was an epic Diag and repair, ur customers should expect to pay extra for such skill, Well done.

Ivan don't know if you seen this about the 3.6 Pentastar reluctor wheels it's very informative check out James Truxal 3 6 cam timing wheels Buy the way that was cool shit that you did your probably the first to do that and guarantee a npr pyccknn fix👍

Ivan, What are you naming that tool? The Reluctor Rotater? The Russian Reluctor Rotating Wrapping Wrench!

Probably stuck cam phaser in magnetic trays and screwed them up, that is typical code for stuck cam paser!

Great vid as always now should the customer go back and get money back? That depends on how much you charge him. Us mechanics sitting out here in you tube land need to know exactly how long it took you to diag and fix it and how much you charged him. Is it a lot to make it worth his time? I'm on flat rate and I don't have access to a pico scope to diag something like. Those reluctor rings were on pretty tight I just can't see how a mechanic could have moved them without damaging them, I know they were off I saw it, and I'm going to learn from that, so how long did it take and how much did you charge him and was it really the shops fault?

Just had an officers family get killed by a guy going 130+ in a corvette. Racing your daughter? Dont be stupid.

At the very least the other shop should pay the customer back for your bill. Great job.

What a TERRIBLE design! Why didn't they drill a hole at a 45 degree angle where the ring and cam meet and either pin it, or put an allen screw in it to lock that ring from shifting. SMH!

Great video IVAN THANKS HAPPY GOOBLE GOOBLE

There is a tool to check if the magnetic tone wheel has shifted. It uses the notches, if the tool doesn't fit you know they have shifted. I would just replace those fuckers honestly. Job isn't that much more work past the point you are at and it's what Chrysler wants you to do. Because those wheels shouldn't have slipped or moved for any reason... Might slip down the road again for all you know and cause serious engine issues. Ignition timing isn't something you really want getting wonky as it can harm the engine A LOT.

The other shop owes him 2 new cams. If I were the Jeep owner, that's what I'd want. I'd store the cams, and if those phasers you moved shift again during a bunch of heat cycles, I'd just eat the cost to have the cams replaced again with the new ones. Knowing what the problem was, is priceless.

Who’d of thought that the reluctor wheels could shift from the mechanic mishandling the camshaft?? That’s just crazy! You are fortunate that your friend has seen the same problem he could even advise you about the problem, that once broken the only solution is to buy a replacement camshaft. What a dumb design, the manufacturer is partially to blame as well as the other shop. Your customer should go back to the other shop and get his money back they made the mistake of carrying the camshaft by the reluctor wheel. If your buddy is right about it not staying put, he will need the money to buy replacement camshaft’s.

I'm wondering if the camshafts were replaced did they use two of one part number instead of a left and a right intake cam, or perhaps they got bare cams and had to press fit new Reluctors on.

Those signals looked like Hall effect, but you keep mentioning reluctor. Is the cam sensor truly reluctor or Hall? Thanks!!!

In video 1, you stated that you were reluctant to do a lot of intrusive work as the customer may wish to take the vehicle back to the first shop and get any remedial work done under warranty. Now, in video 2, after much dismantling and reassembly, you seem to have resolved the issue, albeit with reservations about how long the reluctor wheel will remain in place. Although you state that you would give a 12 month warranty, should the reluctor wheel repair fail, I can only assume that you would have to honor the warranty and install new cams (at your expense) as another reluctor wheel fix probably wont last very long. Why are you taking this potential risk instead of giving the customer all the information (your video evidence and graphs), not moving the reluctor wheel and the customer returning to the first shop and demanding a fix under warranty? Was there a conversation between you and the customer that we, the viewers, were not aware of? If the customer now goes back to the first shop and states the problem is fixed, that shop may not honor any warranty claim as a third party has done work on the engine. I'm not trying to troll or anything like that but from the 2 videos there are some anomalies that need clarification.

Hack worked) I love when it’s possible to fix an issue with no parts required. Decent work done 👍

I bet the mechanic used cam tooling for a another brand of engine to hold the cams during removal/replace of cam sprockets over torqued it an wound up moving the reluctor wheels when assembling or disassembling the engine during timing job I could see that happening very easily way easy to do especially as a young mechanic with not many tools yet an a thin budget I know I’ve been there before luckily I never had a problem but sure plenty others have

Dear I say “US-trash”…….ha ha🙇‍♂️🍻Greetings from Denmark

What kind of crap camshafts can accidently be knocked outta time by just installing them? I saw that same strap wrench in my dads garage. No jeep to try it on. Haha

Have any of your customers on these butcher jobs ever used your videos for evidence in a small claims suit? Because it's pretty damning evidence, lol.

Question, did you do the break in procedure on the cat? You didn't show it or mention it. I have found to have better success when installing aftermarket cats.

Long live the pushrod. DOHC is just too finicky when it comes to Timing imo.

I would go back to that shop and hand them your bill to pay and get them to buy new cams to have on hand if those reluctors move again.