Can We Trust Bede and Gildas?

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When we consider the fifth century in Britain, there are two sources who mention it in any detail. Bede's 'History of the English People' and Gildas's 'The Ruin of Britain'. Both of them say roughly the same thing, and were, until very recently, the primary resource we had for talking about the transition from Roman Britain to the first Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
But recently, we've accepted that these sources tell us less about the fifth century than they do about the times and cultures in which they wrote. They are heavily influenced by events after the fifth century, and they clearly have no understanding of the fifth century themselves. This video will explain why they can't be trusted.
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5 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 63

@MLaserHistory 2 года назад

Great analysis of the early sources with a main theme that honestly permeates through almost all early medieval sources. One thing, however, if I may. Perhaps comparing the industrial revolution an the revolutionary period which, I would argue, were far more disruptive events than anything that really happened in the early medieval period, isn't the best. I understand the point you're trying to make and I definetly agree with the point, it's just the examples, I think, don't fit that well, as their scales where far more lifechanging than what early medieval Anglo-Saxons would have experienced.

@GuthlacYT 2 года назад

Entirely fair critique! It was something I considered while writing the script. It is difficult to communicate the change of ideas about the world through our modern lens because of the literally revolutionary change in the way we view things brought about by the Industrial and French revolutions. But it's a point I stand by, because in the fifth century there was no conception of a post-Roman world of kings and Christendom as existed in such an entrenched fashion in the 8th century mindset. These are the ideas which Bede has entrenched in his mind while he's writing, and why he considers Vortigern the king of the Britons in a period where some considerable Roman ideas would still be entrenched within the population and their view of the world. At least, that was my logic when making the point, and I understand entirely if you disagree, because you're right in saying that the past 300 or so years are incomparable on their effect on humanity and how we view ourselves :p

@blugaledoh2669 2 года назад

7:44 where did you get 150 years from? Gildas was probably born around 500 AD and the Anglo-Saxon settlement began around 450 AD. 50 years apart.

@GuthlacYT 2 года назад

If he were writing when he were 5 years old that would be true, but he was writing at approximately 50 years old which by your figures means that he is writing, at the earliest, 100 years after. I wouldn't be an authoritative source on things which occurred 50 years before I was born. Here, I err on the side of a late Gildas, hence 150 years.

@blugaledoh2669 2 года назад

@@GuthlacYT it is a hundred years since the world wars. Many of us know something and recalled them from our parents or the grandparent. Hell, there are even people now that lived through the Depression.

@GuthlacYT 2 года назад

@@blugaledoh2669 there are, but it's important to account that, with these events, mythmaking is as, if not more prevalent when an event is in living memory, and can be built upon entirely false premises. Different countries and cultures emphasise different features of historic events. I recommend the below video for more on that - an event being in living memory doesn't mean that we can rely on the account. And this is all built on the assumption that Gildas was intending to tell what he considered a historically accurate account, which he was not ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sJFMkO3VDQA.html

@blugaledoh2669 2 года назад

@@GuthlacYT Does this mean every historical source is unreliable?

@GuthlacYT 2 года назад

@@blugaledoh2669 to varying degrees, yes. The role of historians is to acknowledge that fact and counter it.

@Embracehistoria 2 года назад

"Shakes fist angrily at Gildas".

@jbussa 2 года назад

One of the most hidden youtube talents out there, and offers many interesting perspectives on this period :)

@PakBallandSami 2 года назад

great video

@HalendleofLoc 2 года назад

You deserve way more attention man, your videos are good shit

@histguy101 Год назад

The period of interest, sub-Roman Britain, is like 410-530. Gildas lived in this period. His writings are dated to as early as pre-480 to as late as 540. He doesn't live in a Britain conquered by Anglo-Saxons, but in a Christian, Roman, Latin speaking Britain. So what are you talking about 100-150 years after the fact? He lived in the very same period we want to know about

@GuthlacYT Год назад

Gildas, as late as 540, writing about a period as early as 410. Is that not 100-150 years? Dismissing the 100-150 years point - by your estimate it's 70 years. Do you trust someone living in Los Angeles today to provide an exhaustive and useful account of 1950s New York?

@tapere7277 2 года назад

Well thought through and articulated. I've been thinking along these lines for while but was unable to pull it all together as clearly and concisely as you have.

@MythologywithMike 2 года назад

"Their narrative accounts tell us much more about how they saw than past rather than how it actually was" Pretty much sums up all historical sources. This is a great video talking about some of the pitfalls with primary sources that we need to deal with as historians

@mikeoxsmal8022 2 года назад

And modern source

@HelloAllegro 2 года назад

Certainly period films seem to reflect the time they're made in more than the time they're depicting.

@Imprenq 2 года назад

My favourite channel on RU-vid!

@mercianthane2503 2 года назад

However what we can reconstruct from Gildas and Bede's writings is that: at some point the romans left, possibly around 410 AD. After this, Britons began to refortify ancient hill forts, and several petty kingdoms were born, but there was a Tyrant who truly became powerful. The Britons were harassed by pirates and raiders, and maybe the Britons did send messengers to some Germanic warriors to use them a "foederati". We don't know what caused the rebellion of these "jutes" but surely happened.

@SmoggieManx 2 года назад

Another geat video mate! Love anything Bede related (Even if we can't always trust him!)

@postiepaul 6 месяцев назад

The Anglo-Saxon ‘invasion’ is more nuanced than portrayed. Christianity was not a prerequisite for the immigration,if you will, of the Germanic ‘invaders’. It is highly likely that famine, flooding (in Frisia) and habitat in general were the major factors for their ‘invasion’.

@jackl9065 2 года назад

Great vidio, Iike how you treated Bede and Gildes with respect, but manged to logically despite them

@TheRockmega Месяц назад

gildas scrive chiaramente che la battaglia di badon fu combattuta 44 anni prima dal momento in cui stava scrivendo

@boigercat 2 года назад

May i suggest trying a different title like " Can we trust history" use the power of clickbait my friend. good clickbait is like a good joke, it needs a little truth and if the product is good the trickery is forgiven and i think your videos are really good

@boigercat 2 года назад

And i only say this because i genuinely think you make quality content and i want more people to see it

@coope46 2 года назад

Totally, agree, I thought the same thing when I clicked on this. There's nothing wrong with mild clickbait. Now if the title was something like "iS hIsToRy lYiNg tOo uS?!?!?!? yOu wOnT bElIeVe!!!!" Thats a problem. But something to spice the title up a little. Some people might be interested in the topic but not know anything about early medieval english historians.

@boigercat 2 года назад

@@coope46 well said. I think it was Tom Scott who did a video on clickbait and he made a similar point. it was a interesting chat and definitely worth watching if you make content

@coope46 2 года назад

@@boigercat I saw one by Veritasium on it a while back, I thought that's what you were referencing frankly haha. But yeah especially with how the online attention market works nowadays its nearly impossible to get your material to be spread to a wider audience without at least a little embellishment. As long as it isn't over the top to me its just business. You have to be aggressive now to be able to go somewhere online now but also extremely lucky

@boigercat 2 года назад

@@coope46 I think it was Veritasium actually haha but yeah exactly. genuinely thanks for adding onto this with a much better explanation because i felt a little rude just handing out advice not asked for. but i only do so because i would just love to see this channel grow

@kylefrost2119 2 года назад

Nice video thank you!

@kingbeauregard 2 года назад

don't trust Bede and Gildas they both owe me money

@Joseph-Brighton Год назад

Hello, great Video :). Could you please name the texts / books you used for this video? This would help me a lot as I am writing a term paper on the "end" of Roman rule in Britannia. Thank you very much

@GuthlacYT Год назад

Sure thing! I don't have a concrete bibliography to hand you, I'm afraid, but here's the below to help you: Bede's "Ecclesiastical History of the English People", Gildas's "The Ruin of Britain". A good secondary source to get you started is the early chapters of Robin Fleming's "Britain After Rome", and another good resource is John Blair's 2018 book, "Building Anglo-Saxon England", but that might be not quite relevant. An article which I found useful when I was writing on the same topic was Chris Wickham's article, "The Other Transition: From the Ancient World to Feudalism" - it's quite complex, but he goes over the economic stimuli that led to the collapse of Rome, and its replacement with a small scale landowner economy. If you're at all struggling to find secondary literature, like if your institution doesn't have access or something, I recommend the website libgen . li - you'll be able to access and download resources on there for free. Best of luck!

@Joseph-Brighton Год назад

@@GuthlacYT Thank you so much :).

@wulfshead Год назад

With all your videos around this topic of 5th century Britain pointing in the same direction and stating, quite correctly, that, although we can glean much information from Gildas and Bedes works, it should be taken with a large pinch of salt, I’m interested to know then, in your opinion, are there any more modern works that have been put together over the years since more evidence through archeology, etc that you find to serve as a better guide to what may have happened in those early years? In short, are there and books, essays, etc you have found to be of great value? It’s difficult to find works that not only outline things from an evidential historical and archeological point of view, but that also combine how we think people would have lived then combined with their cultural and religious (heathen) practices. Any thoughts and advice on literature you yourself have found beneficial and worthwhile would be greatly appreciated! As always, another concise and well compiled video of information. Thank you for your work.

@GuthlacYT Год назад

Thank you! it's always good to know that the work I put in is appreciated it's difficult to outline a comprehensive source which outlines the process - but I'd be tempted to direct you to John Blair's Building Anglo-Saxon England, because in that book he discusses the changing cultures, and the initial arrival of Anglo-Saxons, the adoption of a variety of Anglo-Saxon behaviours. A good example is that he looks into the building habits of the early period - it's possible to see an initial wide adoption of Anglo-Saxon building styles, which then recedes in the 600s onwards (but of course, this doesn't mean these people didn't see themselves as Germanic), which the 800s and 900s seeing a standardisation of Germanic building practices, both because of Vikings and because of the centralisation of the English State. I'd thoroughly recommend it!

@wulfshead Год назад

Ah, that’s great, thank you. I am aware of his work as have seen a book about the church in AS society (the blurb and comments on his writing were very positive from what I remember), but I wasn’t aware of the one you mention here, so I shall seek it out! Much appreciated. I have been trying to source work of a similar modern approach with regards to those early days of settlements becoming the society we know it. Heathen tribes (for want of a better word) and subsequently those first kings are really hard to track down! I mentioned in a comment on another video that, pre Offa, it’s hard to find anything of real substance, that I know of anyway. I have read Michael Woods works, which again, cover nothing prior to Offa really, and of course Bede, etc, but nothing that’s has really stood out. I was recommended Marc Morris’s work, but I haven’t read anything else he’s had published, so wasn’t too sure. Again, anything you’d recommend?