Can You Outshoot an FBI Agent? [Part 1: 1940s] 

"The original Colt silhouette, later known as the 'man impatiently waiting to have his order taken at McDonalds'"

I'm going out on a limb: yes

That test has to be more about following directions than actual marksmanship.

My 30 year career began in ‘68 w/mostly bulls eye shooting for qualification. In 1974 I found myself, along w/two other cops, in a gunfight w/three armed robbery suspects. None of my training up to that point taught me how to fight w/a gun so the fact that I walked away w/o a scratch was pure luck.

I think that this test really reflects what the FBI was doing at the time - mostly dealing with dug-in barricaded suspects. If you expect to be swapping bullets with John Dillinger and Baby Face Nelson at the Little Bohemia Lodge, the 50--60 yard ranges and supported positions start to make sense. It's also very clear that your first run suffered from the lack of tie, high waisted pants, and snap-brim hat...

Lucky gunner is lucky to have Chris B on staff. He’s an OG in the RU-vid gun genre by now.

Chris, thanks for another great video. I started my LEO career in 75, and many of these techniques were still being taught and used. I always qualified as an "expert" at training and enjoyed shooting off duty. Everything changed for me in July of 76 when I was in my 1st OIS. I was shooting an S&W model 28, 357 mag loaded with Remington 125 gr sjhp. No speed loaders yet, just dump pouches meant for 6, but somehow, I crammed 11 in there. All I can say is that when the SHTF my partner was shot and I was in a real gunfight. After 5 shots, I chose to reload and reality set in. To say I was doing a stress reload is an understatement! The 11 rounds fell into my hands and some on the ground. It felt like I was trying to put 44mag rounds into a .22. The reload was eventually completed and soon, the gunfight was over. I won. Within days, I was carrying non issue speed loaders. My biggest awakening was how much stress changed everything. Everything seemed to go into slow motion, there was no sound, and then there was the tunnel vision. This changed my training to this day

I was a rookie cop in 1990 and I went to firearms instructor course in 1995. I remember this course well. It really was a good course

Old police pistol qualifications are fascinating

I shot the PPC competition in DOE in the late ‘70’s. At that time there was no hip shooting requirement, and the targets were different IIRC. I used a 4” Colt Python & 38 spl wad cutters.

Can you outshoot an FBI agent? Only if you have the tiniest bit of gun-handling experience.

Thank you, Chris Baker and Lucky Gunner staff, for keeping these old techniques in living memory. The FBI wanted two things from prone and sitting: reduced exposure to incoming gunfire more stable shooting position You did better from standing than from the "protected" and "stable " shooting position, Chris.

When I got into law enforcement we were just moving away from the course wherein shots started at 50 yards. Now, this was municipal LE, but our state follows the FBI's course. By the time I had to qualify, we shot 18 rounds from 25 yards. This changed over the years. By the time I retired, and currently it's 12 rounds from 25 yards, (6 standing, 6 kneeling) in 25 seconds. Then on command, run to the 15 yard line, draw and fire 3 rounds (12 seconds, I think). Then 3 more strings, each on command, of 3-rounds in 5 seconds. Then, when commanded, run to the 7 yard line, draw and fire a double-tap (8 seconds, I think). Then reload and when told, fire 12 rounds in 25 seconds. Then, on the final command, step forward to the 5 yard line, fire 6 rounds strong hand only, then 6 rounds support hand only. State requires a 70% score, my old agency required an 80% score. Now, our BUG course had some close-in draw and shoot from the hip (from 3 feet) at the end.

IIRC the hip shooting technique began with William Fairbairn teaching both the Shanghai police force and the British commandos combat survival...

In the 1940s I am sure that a lot of what was done in their shooting training was influenced by SA Delph "Jelly" Bryce. Jelly was recruited during the gangster years of the 30s to give the FBI some gunfighters. He was not a lawyer or an accountant, he had worked in the car theft division in Oklahoma City along with a few others from the OCPD pistol team that were recruited for this purpose. Jelly was reputed to have been born with a gun in his hand and he had a remarkable ability, he was one of those gun fighter types that had excellent hand eye coordination so was pretty good at hip shooting. Not everyone in the FBI possessed his abilities however.

Although ammo carrying systems may not have been issued, there were ammo slides, and dump pouches available for purchase. These were also commonly used.

Watching this, it makes a lot of sense why the FBI said Jeff Cooper's 1911 was unfair.

Thank you. Very enjoyable to watch & learn. (Now I need to dig the M-64, 4” out of the back of the safe and find a 60 yard range.)

Should have contacted Paul Harrell to borrow his plaid sports coat. Always makes me think of this era.

The way the law enforcement sprays and prays is something most of us can do.

I hear that the ATF qual is a silhouette of a dog.

Yup. All day, every day...and twice on Sunday. Thanks for the share!!

This reminds me a lot of Victorian and Edwardian Historical European Martial Arts reconstruction and research.

I have that PP Colt in 22LR with a 6" barrel - My grandfather's 'HOBO gun' - his words.

At 0:29, the reason they used that position was because that is how the body naturally positions itself when in danger, so they practiced getting shots on target like that to be faster and with repetition accurate. This came from Fairbairn methods developed in early 1900s.

I went through FBI New Agent Training in 1998 and retired in 2018. During my 20 years in the Bureau, the qualification course changed three times. It went from a good course of fire to a terrible course of fire and then a little better.

Way to go, Chris. Your videos are always very interesting, and informative. Thank you.

Seeing as many of them right now don't even know how to disassemble their firearm let alone how they're properly use it. I feel pretty good about my odds

Great video! I qualified on a version of that course as a New Agent at the FBI Academy in 1986. No speedloader, but a single issue 2x2x2 ammo pouch, rest of the ammo in the strong-side pants pocket. Gun was similar to what you used, S&W Model 13-3 3" heavy barrel. Same 60 Yard line start. Same use of weak hand and eye on the weak side of the barricade. Same B-21X target with the bent arm, where rounds would find the "0" scoring area! Course was a bit different in 1986: 60 rounds and fired in 4 Stages. Double action shooting was required at all stages except 50 Yards, where SA shooting was permitted and encouraged. The barricade shooting position used a standard 20hand grip, and not the thumb-supported 1-hand firing. Stage 1 starts at 60 Yard line, run to the 50 Yard line and fire 6 rounds prone, 3 rounds each strong and weak side standing barricade (with reloading), then run to 25 Yard line and fire 6 rounds each kneeling strong side barricade, over the top of the barricade and kneeling weak side barricade (with reloading). Stage 2 starts at 25 Yard line, run to the 15 Yard line and fire 12 rounds standing with reload in 30 seconds. Stage 3 starts at 15 Yard line, run to 7 Yard line and fire 12 rounds standing with reload in 25 seconds. Stage 4 starts at 7 Yard line, move to 5 Yard line and fire 6 rounds in 5 seconds.

I always use the revolver as a primary gun, and I have a ton of '60s and '70s era gunleather and accessories for revolvers. Upside down shoulder rigs, crossdraw holsters, split six speedloader carriers, dump pouches, cartridge loop carriers, etc. They all still work very well. PPC was quite a big sport back when I was a kid in the mid '80s, and the gun club I was a member of had a league for it. A lot of the guys there had custom heavy barrel compensated PPC revolvers. It wasn't unusual to see one in someone's gun box on ranges in those days. Also properly cared for vintage gunleather can easily last over 50 years in continuous service. I've only ever had to do a few minor repairs. You can still find all kinds of wonderful revolver gear that nobody wants now in gunshop odds and ends boxes and all over eBay. Thankfully. I'll be using them forever for my Colt Agent, Cobra, original Charter Arms Bulldog, S&W 31, 36, 37, 40, 640, 49, 2" M15 and 2 1/2" M19. And many others... 😏

People seem forget the status of ammunition back when the majority of police carried revolvers. Autoloaders were not known for their reliability with the hollow point designs of the time. For years the only choices for the 9mm were fmj ball. Later, Winchester released the completely ineffective 100 gr soft point, which was no better than fmj. For decades the 230 gr fmj was all you could find for the .45 acp. Viable hollow points just didn’t exist for autoloaders until well into the 1970’s. Wide mounted hollow points could only be used in revolvers. The stellar ammunition younger shooters take for granted is relatively speaking, a fairly new component to armed self defense. Some pistols, like the early Smith & Wesson model 39, and the Walther P-38 weren’t known for their reliability even when fmj rounds were used. The Illinois State Police issued the model 39 in 1967 and within a few years many troopers were asking for their old revolvers back due to reliability issues. These problems were documented in the book, ‘Law Enforcement Handgun Digest’, published in 1980

I'm surprised how much improvement was had from the first attempt "as published" compared to the second attempt with reasonable updates in equipment and techniques. If you were to try it again, "open class" with any modern equipment, I'd be curious how well you'd do then. Get video, as always. I really enjoy your content!

This would make a really interesting competition. I could imagine a few classes, Classic doing it by the book, Free using any technique, and Open with any equipment.

I was just about to ask for a comparison without the dated technique parts, so I'm glad that was included. An S&W M1917 with half moon clips could make a nice period-accurate choice as well

Those are some strange techniques plus 50 and 60 yard shots with a revolver is tough!!

Chris, my old pal, this is the kind of question that lands you on a naughty list.

Watching this before the actual FBI takes this down because of the title 😂

This actually seems really fun! Would love to see you try it more. Maybe with a five shot revolver, and with a breakopen revolver with speedloaders and so on?

I'm surprised that during the Hip-Fire portion Manny didn't come out and tell you to tuck your elbow in to your hip, show you how it's supposed to be done. Pretty sure he helped develop that course of fire. ;-)

I have to ground myself before ordering from Lucky Gunner because it's LIGHTENING fast. CawCaaaaw

Really interesting video, this is the stuff I really like to watch when it comes to gun content. Cant wait for the next vid!

This is great! Looking forward to the rest of the series.

Oh cool, looking forward to this series!

Wonderful content, it's great to see the evolution of qualification.

John as ASP channel recommends practicing shooting from different positions. One may have fallen to the ground or sitting or prone may be the only positions that provide cover. I took an AR defense class that included police qualification test. We had to shoot standing, kneeling, sitting and prone.

Yet another great video from Chris. Thanks. I always love your revolver content.

Love these types of videos, thank you!

Great video as always, Chris! I really enjoy your presentations.

Great video. Thanks for doing this. Looks like a lot of fun.

Chris, I always enjoy your videos, and this one is no exception. While I have shot the current FBI qual test many times, I found this one more interesting from a historical perspective.

Great work. I am looking forward to the rest of the series.

FBI: agents only shoot to defend so only Killzone hits count. Also FBI: shoot from prone at 60 yards. Honesty never has been their thing.

This was great! Looking forward to more videos!

Hi Chris, that's a great video! I can't wait for the next one! Thanks for sharing it!🙌

Train to group at seven yards using the sight picture. Then repeat at ten yards. Then repeat at fifteen yards. Start your range session at five yards with a point shoot “Bill Drill” and use a shot timer. This works for me and it could work for you.

Don’t test me bro

This is great. Thank you for covering this topic.

I’m enjoying this series 🎉

Very informative video! Thanks!

Another great video.

The idea that the John Moses Browning existed and that law enforcement is still using revolvers post 1907 is the hardest concept to wrap my mind around.

This brings back sooo many memories. I took first place with my duty 38 special colt in 1985 on the PPC combat pistol course. Loved it.

In 1986 I attended an eight week basic police training course at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and they were still teaching loading loose rounds from the pocket. We also trained with DeSantis holsters that had a integrated 2x2x2 pouch. When I was in the field my agency did issue speed loaders.

I misread this title and I thought it said "can you shoot an FBI agent" and I was like well i've GOTTA see this

I love when you do this kind of content. I totally want to try it with my wheel gun now

You should do a series on the ATF history and training protocols! That would be so cool! They have so many successful operations and raids.

My first police academy in 1977 they still taught the crouch down and shoot from the hip. Never saw that again after that. Thanks for the great videos.

Yes more revolver content! Vintage too 😊

A lot of comments from old cops here. I started in 76, it’s good hear their stories.

This video definitely got me put on a list

So cool! Haha I love this retro stuff. Good excuse to go out and practice with your wheel gun 😂

When you say, "I hope you guys enjoyed that..." That is ALWAYS a resounding YES!

Chris: "I'm not gonna wear a tie and high waisted pants, but..." Me: Manny Mansfield would have worn a tie and high waisted pants. Representing an optics company, I would love to shoot this back to back with an iron sighted revolver and then a revolver with a dot sight on it like the Taurus TORO series. Given the time constraints here, the speed advantage of the dot wouldn't matter that much but I bet the accuracy advantage a dot sight brings at distances like 60 yards could make a repeatable and quantifiable improvement in scores. As always, looking forward to the rest of the series. --Mike

These old shooting techniques remind me of jazz hand dance moves from West Side Story.

interesting video thanks!

Pretty interesting to see how far training courses have come over the decades.

Chris, Love the video. Nail polish on the sights..............I use the white and orange too. All the best this Memorial Holiday weekend. The JJ, SW Penna.

Let’s talk context: is that because they set you up or entraped you? Is your life being threatned?

Thank you!

My FBI agent, glancing through my browser history and seeing this video title: 🧐

EXCELLENT!

Wow, great video. Objective rather than ego based, very refreshing from a 'Guntuber'.

This looks interesting, difficult and impractical.

I like these old drills

Love the video. One difference in equipment is that the fixed sighted Smith medium frame revolvers were set up so that you could not see the rear sight if the hammer was down. If you wanted to see the rear sight you had to cock the hammer.

I know you said that women didn't have big enough pockets yet for 35 loose rounds, but the words "tactical purse reload" were revealed to me and my life will be unfulfilled until I see this someday.

6:50 - There are actually neurological reasons (beyond limiting how much of your punkin haid you're exposing) for using the same-side eye - right eye/right hand, left eye/left hand. It has to do with compatibility of neural pathways.

Hip shooting or point and shoot is not a bad thing. If you don't have the time to present the gun full extension then hip shooting is very relevant. This method is usually used for extreme close range with no time to aim but only draw and shoot. The idea of going prone position was if there is no concealment or cover then make yourself the smallest target possible and have steadier more accurate shots at longer range by going prone but you take away mobility by going prone. I think kneeling would have been better to reduce the target size of your body although you present a bigger target than prone. Good video. More revolver videos. Thanks for the wheel love.

Yes, I can. Then thru now as I tried all of them. I tried the early versions with a dump pouch, did FLETC in the 80s with speed loaders, and use parts of the current qual with a semiauto when I taught.

Interesting! BTW the Federal Bureau of Intimidation/Incineration was first given permission to carry guns, by FDR, AFTER a shootout that failed to bag Dillinger but hit a couple of bystanders.

At 4:21 compare the forearm angle of the agent and Chris. I Learned to shoot revolvers, as a young cop, on a slightly modified PPC course and discovered early that the secret to hip shooting was keeping the forearm parallel to the ground. With your right arm centered, left to right, on the target and the forearm level it can be very successful even at 25 yards. By my time (1968) the 60-yard prone had been replaced by a 25 yard kneeling. After a while you can reach into a pocket of 30-40 rounds and your hand knows exactly what 5 rounds feels like LOL

Thanks

What next, tea cupping?

My dad was a SA in the '60s. I have a couple of old hard-bound training books (they look like little novels) that are signed by Hoover that were apparently given out to all Quantico graduates. In those books are line drawings of shooting positions, etc. It's crazy how naive they were. Well, it's crazy to see it right there, in black-and-white. ETA: His carry piece was a classic S&W snub nose in .38 special. My mother used to sew reinforcement patches into all his new suits, because his hip holster would wear his jacket and his trousers.

Looks fun

Good vid, definitely has me curious. I mostly shoot long range but have recently purchased 3 9mm pistols and practice often. In order to be proficient with my EDC, I shoot at least 100 rounds every week. I've always felt kinda silly just standing in front of one paper target down a single lane. I'm probably going to reserve a few hours of range time this Wednesday at the outdoor range. I have zero natural pistol shooting ability but with lots of practice and watching numerous videos, Ive come up with my own grip to eliminate my low n left shooting and don't really need to think to much

I think the biggest fault with this course is always loading 5 rounds into a 6 shot revolver. Were they only carrying 5 on duty, or did they load all 6? Seem like it would be really easy to create some bad habits under stress.

My Model 13 or Colt Army Special and I will be trying this. I might even add a tie.

I'd be interested to see how your new S&W UC 32 H&R snubby did with that ("freestyle" ofcourse so the weird techniques aren't mucking things up). Those sights gotta help a ton at distance.

Nice