Can You Write a Negative Flat Arc? 

So happy to have you back on RU-vid. Keep up the GREAT work.

I've thought about negative flat arcs a lot. Only one comes to mind immediately though. "About Schmidt" is a flat arc! He doesn't change by the end. I think there are four types of negative change arcs: 1) character based stories are about mindsets, so I'd call a negative flat arc for a character-based story a Prejudice arc, where it ultimately leads to the protag failing to overcome his prejudices, and suffers the consequences in his relationships. I think that's what About Schmidt is but it has been decades since I watched that movie, and i haven't read the book it was based on ever. 2) event based stories are about goals, so an event-based negative flat arc I'd call an Oppression arc, where you gradually realize the protag has the opportunity to make things better for others but oppressing them is their goal. It has a climax of an Event which unfolds to betray someone expecting a good outcome. 3) idea-based stories are about methods, plans, or functionality of how ideas work, so an idea-based negative character arc I'd call a Deterioration Arc, where the protags refusal to change their customs, methods or plans gradually degrades their life or ability to cope with people, like a teacher unable to adapt to the changing needs of a more diverse group of students. This is about having the wrong ideas about how the world works or failing to adapt to new circumstances. 4) setting-based ideas are about motivations deriving from relationships to social or physical settings, so a setting-based negative change arc I'd call an Exploitation arc, where the protag believes exploiting others (or exploiting physical environments) is the way to thrive and fails to change when other people wise up to his behaviour, or leads them to ruin to suffer for what the protag desires.

Patrick Bateman in American Psycho!

Yay! What a joy to see you pop up again in my subscribed videos - welcome back!!

I'm so glad you're back. I think of Dorian Gray as someone who was affected by someone with a flat arc

Hi K.M. Thank you for your 'Archetypal Character Arcs -series' and the reference to Spiral Dynamics, it changed my life. :) /Jonas

nice. just out of curiosity, i asked chatgpt "give me 10 examples of protagonists that do not change or grow and makes their world worse". here's what it came up with. CGPT========================== Captain Ahab from Herman Melville's "Moby-Dick" - Ahab is consumed by his obsession with killing the white whale, leading to the destruction of his ship and crew. Macbeth from William Shakespeare's "Macbeth" - Macbeth's thirst for power leads to the murder of his king and friends, and ultimately his own downfall. Alex DeLarge from Anthony Burgess's "A Clockwork Orange" - Alex is a violent, sociopathic delinquent who continues to commit heinous crimes even after undergoing aversion therapy. Patrick Bateman from Bret Easton Ellis's "American Psycho" - Bateman is a psychopathic investment banker who indulges in horrific acts of violence and murder. Tom Buchanan from F. Scott Fitzgerald's "The Great Gatsby" - Tom is a wealthy, racist, and misogynistic man who contributes to the destruction of Gatsby's life. Holden Caulfield from J.D. Salinger's "The Catcher in the Rye" - Holden is a troubled teenager who is unable to connect with others and is hostile towards authority figures. Humbert Humbert from Vladimir Nabokov's "Lolita" - Humbert is a pedophile who preys on and sexually abuses a young girl. Tyler Durden from Chuck Palahniuk's "Fight Club" - Tyler is the leader of a cult-like organization that commits acts of terrorism and destruction. Frank Underwood from the TV series "House of Cards" - Frank is a corrupt politician who uses manipulation and deceit to gain power and advance his own interests. Alexei Karenin from Leo Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" - Karenin is a cold, unfeeling man who contributes to the misery of his wife Anna and ultimately drives her to suicide. CGPT========================== chat.openai.com/chat - in case you haven't started toying with AI yet, it's shocking how good it can be, though it is definitely not perfect or definitive in its answers.... yet. all those sound like good examples except for alexei karenin who i don't believe is the protagonist. huh... and actually, come to think of it, classical TRAGEDIES are probably all examples of this kind of protagonist. they're not about change but a demonstration of their hubristic flaw wreaking havoc on the world and the protag, ultimately destroying him. so king lear, macbeth, othello, oedipus rex, madea... those would probably all be "flat negatives". good to know! anyway, love your books. i've got a bunch of them but started with the outlining book and they're all very illuminating. kudos.

I would almost be tempted to say the Joker from Dark Knight. Granted the scene with the two ships at the end would convince him that people dont sink low to bad day like him, but he doubles down on his belief, and in a way he wins because he destroys Harvey Dent as a character. Thats the best negative flat arc I can think of.

Awesome! Looking forward to reading your new book!

Really looking forward to reading your new book! 🙂

The character Ki Woo ( Son of the poor family) from Parasite had a negative flat arc I think.

I think the German film Look Who’s Back is a great example where, for all intents and purposes, Hitler’s the main character and he starts influencing people again, and as such the film that starts as a comedy ends in a dark and bleak way. Great movie!

I feel like Lou Bloom from Nightcrawler could fit this definition, and possibly Thanos in the context of Infinity War.

I feel like the best way to do a negative flat arc would be to focus on a really cynical or ugly truth rather than just having the protagonist cling to the lie. Basically the flat version of the disillusionment arc.

In the manga Dragon Ball Frieza is an example of negative flat character arc in the TV show Smallville Lex Luthor I think is an example of negative flat character arc. Although both are antagonist

Welcome back!

Anton Chigur from No Country for Old Men comes to mind or Joker in that Nolan Batman movie

Gosh..you are exquisite .. thanks for content..keep it up

You know when you reach into a junk drawer to get your phone charger and your old headphones, your computer mouse, 3 twistee ties and a screwdriver all come out in a tangled heap? That's how I feel trying to choose a theme for my book. If I decide that I want to make the book with a theme of the power of faith, I then get questions about free will/determinism, stuck to it, and my desire to tell a story about a person who doesn't believe they can fundamentally overcome the evil they've been told will always be in their heart. I have this jumbled mess, that all seems like one theme begs a question from the other, and its making the process of assigning each aspect of the puzzle a place in the story so difficult to put together. How do you make the step from self reflection, enumerating all the problems that you have dealt with in life, and into saying "ok, my character is going to center around just around this one flaw, and those other problems and questions, while related, are going to have to wait for another story." or should I just throw the whole junk drawer in and see what happens?

I feel like this could be named a villian arc as I would think voldemort fits this bill. Or Umbridge. My ideas are harry potter based since I've been watching the series today.

⚔️ Tywin Lannister ⚔️ …then shifts to a fall arc.

I'm thinking Ingrid in Ingrid Goes West has a negative flat arc? Or is it more of a Fall arc? Also thinking a lot of iconic Scorsese characters could have negative flat arcs; Travis Barker, Jake LaMotta, Jordan Belfort. Is the main difference between a Fall and a Negative Flat that one has an actual change in their beliefs where as the other just has their beliefs validated?

I feel like a good example of a Negative flat arc would be alex from a clockwork Orange. While yes he does go through some change in the middle of the film, at the end of the film he is the same psychopath at the start of the film. You've defined a positive flat arc as someone who believes in a truth in a world of a lie and fights for that truth, however i would say that a negative flat arc is someone who knows that the lie is not the truth and celebrates it

The evil mentors in Star Wars like Palpatine.

My character Chenille has a negative flat arc. It felt wrong to have her change, learn and grow.

Thanks.

I think the Emporer in Star Wars fits this bill, particularly in the (ugh) first three movies chronologically. I think another example might be Mordred in the versions of King Arthur where he succeeds in destroying Arthur, though at the cost of his life, and leaves the world in ruins. I wonder if characters like Sauron would count as they are definitely flat, definitely working a lie, but ultimately they fail at the cost of their lives. If so, there are lots of antagonists that could be viewed this way.

Dexter?

When I saw this title I immediately said, “Hitler”.

Flat Arc character. Dirty Harry I’d say and negative would be Scorpio from the first film. Or of course the Joker or Frieza from Dragon Ball Z

Satan in the Bible.