Canto 5 Tierlist! | Limbus Company - Foreman Plays Stuff 

Buckle in, there's a lot of chatting today discord.gg/foremanplaysstuff

Yeah so true about Meursault. Random entrances instead of more screentime makes his comedic value way bigger. Charging French ultimate bar before unleashing it.

I will once again shill the failure check dialogue on the Ahab GasHarpoon fight as Dante's strongest moment, and as the piece of dialogue that complete's Ishmael's arc in her own canto, since everybody nowadays seems to autowin that part due to the Ahab nerfs. What answer awaits you at the end of this deliberation? Can she endure her own past? [CHECK FAILED] "……." Her answer to the Manager's question is... endless silence. Is she still contemplating? Or does she think they're wrong? Indeed... it may be too early for her. To decide, that is. "" "

I don't think the Shi association were a red herring? They're assassins. The assassinated someone and left. We then find out Astolfo sent them. Idk it just didn't feel strange to me.

we need to do a tierlist tierlist by the end of the game where Foreman ranks all of his rankins throughout the whole game (including the tierlist tierlist itself, of course)

The entire discussion with the Cantos just makes me hype for when Foreman finally reaches Heathcliff's Canto cause BOY....... He's gonna be in for a wild ride (and the fact that Heathcliff is one of his favorites).

I think you’re right in that you can’t compare trauma, but where you’re missing the mark is how long they knew about what was coming next. Greg was just thrown into it, makes sense, he was the first. He suffered the moment it started to happen. I’m not sure if Rodion had any ties to the place the canto took place, but even then she only really started to get to the trauma right before the dungeon. Sinclair knew something was up, but he wasn’t dreading a whole N Corp inquisitor squad being there and finishing the village off, he was just remembering the bad thing that happened there, not dreading what new thing is there. Ishmael’s trauma was the lakes in general, she was ruminating on it ever since she knew she was going there, she knew she was going to face her demons and couldn’t do shit about it until she got there. It’s like being told you were going to meet your abuser, like meeting them by surprise is bad, sure. But having to dwell on the fact that you have to face them against your will just extends the dread. So you see Ishmael’s trauma for longer before she’s able to face it. That said yeah she’s mean and abrasive, it’s more so exacerbating her already no nonsense personality for a tad too long

You honestly shouldn't put down Ishmael epic ego moment just because Yi sang did it before, sinner EGO being used during peak moments of the canto like this is literally what's supposed to happen like ego happens during exceptional emotional height of the sinner both of the scenarios fit the description with Yi sang spreading his wings for the first time and with Ishmael finally breaking out of Ahab's grasp i seriously just don't get why it's an issue for you

I am uncertain if the parallels between Ahab and Ishmael would have been quite so effective if Ishmael was less frustrating. Otherwise, a very insightful commentary.

It makes sense Outis would be the only one to combat Ishmael. She's based on Odysseus, the only other character who spent a long time on a ship. Unlike the others, she knows how the Great Lake works just as well as Ishmael does and she stands up to Vegilius at one point so she's not just going to let Ishmaels insubordination stand, a bit like how Odysseus doesn't even let the gods get in his way of returning home in the Odyssey. I also feel like her ability to stand up to Ishmael is also gives her and Ishmael a little bit of a comraderie by the end.

I feel like Outis would be a fun person to have a drink with, unless you were colleagues/fellow employees, in which case it would be extremely awkward because Outis doesn't strike me as the type of person who can swtich off "work mode" when hanging out with the people she works with. The character development for Outis after her Canto will be that she'll finally be comfortable enough with the sinners to start complaining about their boss once she gets drunk enough XD.

Like your insight on these as always. Good points even though people might disagree with them. I respect that. I think people really just liked Ishmael in season 1 & 2 and carried that through her being a massive downer in the Intervallo. I personally got desensitized to the angst and trauma (due to a lot of other media, and Project Moon's other games of course). I didn't mind Ishmael being a downer. I thought it was due to her fear of the Lake and the Whale. Not gonna lie, the Lake and the Pallid Whale is a very big jump in danger compared to the other Cantos, the Sinners and Dante just got really lucky. I personally felt that Ishmael's breakdown and discord was very necessary since it shows the cracks in the Sinners' relationships and the major inadequacy of Dante's skill in managing the Sinners, making any improvement in the future feel even more cathartic.

You will really enjoy Canto 6

Honestly in addition to Don, I feel like Hong Lu is candidate for having the darkest backstory and also almost certainly faking his personality than he let's on

Foreman commenting on Hong Lu's demeanor as a coping mechanism is so funny because brother man, all of the sinners are coping right now and at all times thanks to their unresolved past (which is why they signed the Limbus contract in the first place), just their respective Canto revealing it front and center

I respect your opinions on Ishmael Manager Esquire but i do have a few counter points to your talk about trauma: Gregor is an old man compared to Ishmael, he's in his late 30s at the youngest seeing as his posters and G Corp ID story make him look somewhere in his mid to late 20s minimum at the time of the war, so he's had not just more life experience than Ishy he also didn't lose his will to live, he might have had a TERRIBLE life after the war as a veteran of a Fallen Wing like Yuri, but he kept on living and trying his best. His trauma mostly manifests as survivors guilt as he described in his talk with Yuri, so his reason to live is to live for those who died. Rodya's whole arc in Canto 2 was that even when the whole story was about HER and facing her trauma she still ran away from it, she confronted nothing, not even Sonya, and that's how her trauma manifests, avoidance, she goes out of her way to run away from her past and even her own emotions, putting on a facade not just to those around her but to fool herself that she's okay, and when the mask slips is when we see the real Rodya, a broken woman who believes she doesn't deserve actual happiness or good things happening to her because of her past, so her reason to live is as atonement, she will weather the cold as long as it takes until she feels she's suffered enough for her past. And the Boss of the Canto plays into that, *We* don't confront the Castle because *Rodya* isn't confronting her past, her trauma, she's running from it, so we run from the Castle. It is absolutely magnificent gameplay storytelling, but the fight does suck gameplay-wise. Now with Sinclair you do make the best points, watching your family murdered in front of you is gonna mess anyone up, but he's still actively working through his trauma, he switches between a meek scared boy and a wrathful vengeful man as we saw in both his Canto and in the Twin Hook's club. His whole story is one of self actualization, similar to Ishmael he never really took charge of his life, and the one time he did he became Kromer's pawn and was responsible for his family's death, like in his book he's trapped between the World of Light (His happy memories of the past, of the shy boy he used to be) and the World of Darkness (His traumatic memories of his family's death and of Kromer, and the man driven by wrath and trauma he became because of it). If he had had the resolve back then he would have 100% become like Ishmael, we see glimpses of it in Canto 3 when he effortlessly strikes down the N Corp people and keeps stabbing one of them in blind anger, and especially in his Cinq ID where he becomes a completely different person in combat, someone more similar to Ismael, but because he cannot face himself and or see himself as anything other than a meek shy boy his "true" World of Darkness self only appears when he's forced to fight. And then we come to Ishmael, someone who threw away her whole old life to try and find something that would give her life purpose, only to lose that life and purpose violently after finally attaining the hope of a happy future for the first time in her life. You have to remember, Ishmael led a (in her own opinion) meaningless life, working hard for no reason other than to be chosen to work at a Wing which would just lead to working hard for no reason some more, she said herself that she didn't know if she wanted to die or not because of how much she wanted to get out of that life, and then a shining star of hope walks up to her, a grand Captain with a great ship and an even greater mission, to kill the Pallid Whale, the source of all evil in the world. Ishmael's situation is *very* different from the others', she *didn't* have a reason to live even *before* her trauma, Ahab *gave* her a reason to live, someone she looked up to and idolised, who in reality only used her to achieve her own obsessions. Aboard the Pequod was the first time she was looking forward to her future, before she was a drifter who only went through life because she had to, now she was actually living, and planning a future with someone. And then the one she idolised, the one who gave her the hope to live in the first place took it all away from her, Ahab wasn't just her reason to live *after* the Pequod sank, she was her reason to live until she met Queequeg, and Ahab too it all away from her. So now she once again had no reason to live, none except revenge on the one who took *everything* from her, the reason her trauma is so much more extreme than anyone else's is because she quite literally has *nothing* left, she threw away her old life herself and had her new one forcibly ripped way from her by a single madwoman, the only thing he has left is revenge, so it's naturally the only thing she cares about. Hope this wasn't *too* much of a massive wall of text or come off as overly rude, i just love psychoanalysing characters, especially in the context of trauma.

I loved the execution of Ishmael’s scene, probably because Compass is an amazing song and the cinematography was great, but if you’re ranking people based on whether you’d hang out with them, pre-Whale Ishmael probably isn’t someone I’d like either

I think Faust suffers from the fact that she talks a lot, she's in the top 5 characters with the most lines if I'm correct, but what she says is mostly exposition. She also doesn't have the most likable personality, she's the most emotionally withdrawn of the sinners along with Meursault, and what personality she has shown isn't very pleasant to interact with. Her Canto is last, so PM are taking their sweet time with her character development and revealing her backstory, but now that we're halfway through Inferno with Canto VI, I think that her character development is going to start for real. I really hope so because I like her and she has good moments. She clearly has a nicer side of her personality that she's keeping hidden from the others.

I've heard people mention that canto 1 while mostly agreed as the weakest over all was still great for newcomers to PM since it really sets the tone of the setting and story

did you know? if you invert the key arts for Ishmael and Heathcliff, they mirror each other's bg colors they are mirrors of one another and its so cool

Saying that Ishmael whale kill is worse just because Yisang also used his ego at the end of the fight is a really weird take

I can't wait to see you experience the events that took place around the time you first started, such as the 2nd Walpurgis Night and the Blade Lineage events' stories. Seeing you experience the Hard difficulty for MD for the first time would definitely be a treat as well

In a very, very lukewarm defense of Canto 4's habit of redherrings and bringing up stuff like the Shi and Rosepanner and do nothing with it: I personally kinda like it because I don't think they were ever meant to be a big thing, much like how in Ruina the earliest fights aren't really too significant. Sure the Rats for instance have a bunch of cleverly hidden foreshadowing for future events and such, but they're nothing in the grand scheme of things, just there for fodder and helping reinforce how the City is and works. Same with Hook office, and now same with Rosespanner. I mean how many of us expected to get a followup in Ruina about the Ordeals after we saw the sweepers return for a quick (ok, I WISH it has been quick jfc) fight? I sure did, but we didn't besides 'oh yeah there's a creepy distorted circus somewhere idk'.

It’s been fun to watch you and your thoughts through Ruina and through Limbus company and will continue to enjoy the ride. Don’t be swayed too much by other’s opinion since your opinion is your own. Whether people prefer one chapter to another doesn’t matter since throughout it all we all still enjoy it and trying to find an objective ranking for everyone is fruitless since people hold everything at different weights to their reason why they may enjoy something. For example Chapter 2 I find there to be a lot of interesting tid bits but 99% of it aren’t up to the standard everything else is at and I’ve seen it be enough to discourage people from continuing the game same with chapter 4 due to its shear length and bloat. I think slight revisits and fine tuning them could do wonders but that’s because the way I view things are different than others as such as the same with every different human being.

Don't really know why some people are getting nasty over internet man's opinion on a video game, so I'll just pop in as an ardent canto 5 enthusiast to say that this was another great tier list 👍👍

I whole heartily agree with you on Canto 4 being the best before canto 6. Yi Sangs final moment truly stuck out for me even compared to Ishmaels moment.

46:00 Many characters in Canto IV are truly great, Dongrang in particular. If not for the pacing issues it may be my favorite too. Canto V improved on that, also I loved the setting, constant feel of dread, and music. Looking forward to you playing (and giving your opinion on) Canto VI.

Big respect for sticking to your opinion regarding Ishmael. I like her a lot but when people say things like "You will like Ishmael after her Canto" or when people get angry because someone supposedly is not respecting her trauma (enough), it feels so cringe and immature to me.

Putting Ish that low? I'mma have to claim your bones, buddy.

really happy you're still sticking with your guns no matter what anyone else might say keep up the good work ^^

we love ringsang for the 1300 lunacy :D

I'll try not to create too large of yet another wall of text about Ishmael, but I want to say that it unfortunately also simply follows the specific details of her story that she gets so uncooperative and abrasive, and especially gives Dante a hard time. A huge issue for her in her story is about control. Previously she gave herself up to Ahab's leadership and watched the rest of her crew do the same, watched them lose themselves in her thinking and her guidance. And obviously, Ishmael came to see that as a very, very big mistake, pretty much as the biggest thing that went wrong and biggest reason everyone died. That is, a lot of her trauma is *specifically* about being part of a group and following a leader. So she's wary of trusting herself to someone else's leadership and following orders, which means she's fundamentally wary of Dante and Limbus Company. She knowingly signed up because she's getting something out of it, and she can go along with the group as long as it's not a conflict for her, but when her things start hitting the fan and she starts to freak out, her issues manifest in trying to seize control of her situation, rejecting the group and leadership. She feels like she has to personally be the one responsible for keeping herself safe all alone (to the point where at times she almost acts like everyone else MUST be wrong about everything automatically), and probably she feels like she has to challenge the people trying to order her around. The Limbus Company situation obviously doesn't allow for that whatsoever, so it inevitably becomes a constant source of conflict until she can work on things and make a new decision about trusting Dante. (Which goes back to Dante helping her see that blindly following revenge against Ahab isn't really any better than blindly following orders, and meaningfully taking control of her fate is going to be a much bigger project, etc.) All that being said, whether it's enjoyable as a story is always another question and an individual preference. Just wanted to drop the thought in.

1:07:56 psst... foreman... he's a reflection of ishmael! they're both sole survivors who idolized the people who lied and led them on

on the canto tier list, i have a hard time determining if i like canto 4 or 5 the most, canto 4 has dongrang which is the best project moon antagonist in my opinion, but canto 5 didnt have the akwardness of the excess filler fights and story wise it felt more consistently good (there were some moments through canto 4 before the fight with dongbaek where i wasnt sure if i was vibing with the story at all, with a lot of things that were mentioned once and then never again or that felt like they came out just out of nowhere), but i can understand why someone would prefer canto 4, specially if they had a bias against ishmael already and yours is pretty understandable, we really see the worst face of her trauma right before her canto starts

I found the gregor gaming channel!!!

Banger vid, love the glasses chief.

This man is savage

Ishmael is cool but shes not above ryoshu or Sinclair so i find the placement fine Also no one came to faust's defense when she was faust tiered so don't be surprised that your favorite was sea tiered

with liu rodion, liu ishmael, liu ryoshu, shootis, phillip and ring sang you perfectly fuel ring sangs chance to reuse to 100% and have all sin affinities and he still might apply burn. Running this team myself

I have things I would say, but literally everbody else has already said them, so I'll say this instead. 1:16:10 I'm FAIRLY sure that's new. The big 1300 lunacy patch about Yi Sang was specifically because he was BUSTED in MDH due to the fact he got the bonuses of every type of EGO Gift.

Warning: Sunshower is way more of a rupture character than a sinking character, putting him on a sinking team is not going to end well. He'll either spend every fight destroying your sinking count or spend every fight losing all of his clashes in the "It'd be better to just not have somebody in this slot" sort of bad way. Unfortunately, if we're getting a sinking heathcliff this canto, its probably going to be the end-of-season-big-character like captain ishmael was. I guess that's also a good thing because that means we can expect something incredibly special lol. If you want a sole ego user on your sinking team: spicebush has the unique ability to turn high sinking count/potency into comedic amounts of damage.

Despite Ishmael being a problem in Canto 5, I still think it's better than Canto 4, purely based on how interesting and expansive the world around it is. The introduction of a new Color, the whole concept of the Great Lake, the Calamities, the formal introduction to The Middle, who has until then been mostly unknown and only referenced, the Whales and Mermaids, all the scenes showing the different whales and mermaids, just the ominousness and unknown of the Great Leak is so intriguing and did so much in favor of the Canto. There were so many character moments for so many of the Sinners. Outis got a lot of time to shine, Heathcliff got time to shine, Faust is more comfortable around everyone, Dante especially is starting to really step into his stride in making managerial decisions regarding the Sinners and earning some trust, Rodya and Don are as funny as ever, hell the character writing in general has been a step up. I never thought I would be so invested in a group of losers yapping until I got to the scene where the Sinners are discussing what to do about Ahab's offer, all their different takes and opinions showing their moral compasses, even Sinclair had a little bit of shine in standing up and offering his own thoughts about stuff. All of that considered, Canto 6 still wipes the floor with it.

Bro why u look like Gregor but happy

Does this tier list only using the canto or is it using side and mini too? Because honestly some of the best character moment is in the side or mini before the canto itself

My Canto tierlist, with short reasoning but no spoilers for Canto VI: 1. Canto VI (It's peak) 2. Canto IV (I think it has really good characterization, the best after Canto VI in my opinion, and the bossfights are some of the greatest) 3. Canto V (I was a fan of the grandness of it and I liked Ishmael's character progression, sue me) 4. Canto III (Sinclair is precious) 5. Canto I (Gregor and Smoke War lore, too short) 6. Canto II (I'm sorry, but I have nothing good to say about this Canto except that Effie and Saude were introduced)

Peak tier list

As always, you are not judging them as people you're judging them as characters and the point of a character is entertainment so a character that is boring or annoying will always be worse to the viewer than a character that does bad things in the story

Sorry, Foreman, but like, "This guy has bigger trauma than you. Why are you acting like this?" ain't it.

Hearing your opinions on canto 4 was really interesting because personally, it's my *least* favorite. I think the worst canto was canto 2 as it had no interesting fights and no character development happened, but canto 4 was massively bloated, the story pacing was very start/stop, and the big finale I felt was jumping the shark with how esoteric the whole story of it's dungeon was. But stepping off my soapbox, I did think it interesting where you found entertainment in it

Do a Mili theme tier list next xD

I don't have any horse in this race, but generally when discussing the worst canto, canto2 comes up the most. Not canto1. Kinda sad because it was treated more like an intervallo.

Ish absolutely deserves 'sea' tier

Kino

Foreman thinks he can write Canto V better than PMoon. Funniest thing Iv've heard all day.

Jesus christ foreman, you have some really bad takes, it's kinda disappointing actually

hmmmm i liked it better without the webcam