What do you think? Can a single card change a deck’s power level? What cards do you think are just too powerful to be in a 6 commander deck? Any cards we mentioned that you disagree with?
Sol Ring! It 'moves the needle' of the average deck even more than mana crypt due to how widespread it is. Going from 0 to 1 piece of turn1 fast mana is a lot bigger jump, but admittedly it seems the power does compound with each additional piece. Our pod has removed it (or any reusable turn1 fast mana from our decks) and it has had a wildly enjoyable result on our deck building variety and meta of play below CEDH.
I belive in the Zach from commander social says "My cards maybe a 10 but i play like a 3" Dana Roach has called it an X factor you can put all the powerful cards you want but at its core does the deck synergize? Dana will pick cards that are likely going to be considered a 4 but when paired with this commander the card itself becomes a 10 Player skill Deck building skill Card quality Power level I build Josh's deck and play it I'm not a skilled player i will admit this. Hand me a cEDH deck with no primer or knowledge of the deck i might accidentally win but its unlikely.
Better question would be “Can drawing a single card change a deck’s power level. I have Mana Crypts in a few decks and I play many games where I never see it. I agree that having redundant affects can change the power level of a deck but not a single card
This is exactly how I feel- Bought a box of Commander Legends to draft with friends- we pulled a Jeweled Lotus. Would I ever pay ~$90+ for one? Nope.... But will I use it in any deck I can now? Absolutely lol
I’d say most game knights decks that aren’t precon battles are 8s. Jeskas will, rhystic , tithe and dockside are all routinely in decks. Theres almost no two card combos . The only one I can think of was post had the godo helm but had the helm in his hand in the kamigawa episode but they do push the deck when post of Cassius play.
There's a RU-vid show called 'Worst Possible' by CovertGoCrew that lets the table know what the worst thing your deck can do right at the beginning, and I have started doing that at my FNM because I feel it's good for the MTG culture to be more transparent and less GOTCHA. It makes me feel less bad about winning with a combo when I have told the table how I plan to do that. I feel bad when they meta game that transparency and change what they were planning on playing lol
I think having a quick Rule 0 discussion (including Power Level discussion) would benefit Game Knights a lot but I understand why it's not there due to the heavily edited nature of that show. It should definitely be in Extra Turns though.
Honestly the 6 vs 7 vs 8 differentiation was super helpful. Will definitely be useful in pregame discussions and hopefully encourage others to similarly share
I disagree. They talk about decks are usually playing combo wins at 8 (which I agree with) but then label things that aren't necessarily indicative of combo decks. I have a Saruman of Many Colors deck that I wouldn't classify as an 8 because it has such a dumb/slow game plan, but by their definition, would absolutely be classified as such. There is 1 combo that involves 3 different cards that aren't the commander to pull off. Maybe it is just a bad deck concept, but it is running all of the hallmarks of a powerful deck just to be able to work. I wouldn't consider it to be anywhere close in power to my Lord Windgrace deck. Same with Rachel's Pheldagriff deck. I'd say it more competes with the lightly upgraded precon tier more than anything else.
They actually cover this type of exception in the video. Weak decks that require powerful cards just to raise them up to a 6 or 7 can be justified. You just run the risk of people not believing you.
@@Zombi3NinjaKingdude , this video was next level terrible. They are literally just patting every johnny come lately on the head who smashed together the bulk rares and uncommons from their trade binder and thinks their deck is a seven and get upset when they play an actual seven and accuse it of being cedh lol. You only have to go as far as the edh power level chart to see that a 7 is classified as "PLAYING WITH POWER". Idk wtf narrative they're trying to push here with this video trying to knock 7s down to run of the mill dumbed down casual decks.
I don't really like numbers because it misses a key point. Even an absolute trash Grand Arbiter Augustin deck is going to make people upset. It's more the strategy of the deck and speed at which it functions. Like playing a Meren into a Kunaros regardless of the power level is going to be unfun... Likewise Slicer, hired muscle thats using fast mana is going to make playing even a really good control deck struggle. In my experience the best commander pickup games are when people play decks with strategies that aren't at odds with one another and have a similar mana curve. The number thing is just too subjective. Otherwise who cares that much. I play X deck and it went off before you got your chance? Cool let's try again and I'll use something a little less potent. Honestly it's impossible to know who will like what too early on.
the whole 1-10 power level scale is misguided imo. a much more objective metric is "how many turns does it take you on avg to threaten a win/achieve an overwhelming boardstate when unopposed".
Love, love, LOVE this. It's taken me about 5 and a half years of playing EDH to figure these things out, but I very much am in the same boat as you guys here. I don't want to play things that just make certain opponents unable to play anymore. It just isn't fun, at all.
Really appreciate the distinction between cards that make your deck more powerful vs. cards that *imply* you’re playing a powerful deck. Haven’t heard that articulated quite so clearly before.
I think fast mana, “perfect mana bases” (few to no tap lands) and tutors are the most notable influencers of power level. The ability to generate lots of mana early, having color fixing that doesn’t enter tapped, and tutors to get the pieces you need rather than hope you draw into them can turn even a janky deck into a significantly more powerful deck.
I agree with this a lot. I bought the Sliver pre-con and, like many people, was upset about the lack of good reprints and the awful mana base. Playing it sucked as almost very land was a tap land. I added in some mana fixing I already had with some improvement on the ramp, put in a couple of shock lands, and added in the 5 Panorama fetch lands. Those changes alone greatly increased the power level of it and that speed at which it played, and that’s without putting down serious money to get a fully upgraded mana base. In 3+ color decks, revamping the mana base is very impactful
@@eXJonSnow That sliver deck was so disappointing. The slivers themselves were fine, the deck was just so SLOW because of the lands! I played against a few other precons and was just getting smothered by the All Will Be One boros deck and the Dihada deck.
I think everybody should proxy perfect mana bases. No one should feel that their decks power is held back because they don't want to spend hundreds of dollars just to have good lands.
@@leifdering3600 Alternatively, I think people should treat fetchlands specifically as high power level cards. Playing 3+ colors SHOULD have a drawback, because you get to have access to a much larger and more powerful card pool. Casually banning fetchlands (much like fast mana and tutors) would make lands like the painlands or filterlands significantly more playable, as basic typing doesn't matter nearly as much. Also, players play too few basics.
Literally this. The difference between cedh and casual is three things: fast mana, tutors, and efficient win conditions. Without the first two the third gets a lot worse and without the third, decks still feel extremely powerful. Any white deck running the one ring, mana crypt, and enlightened tutor feels oppressive if your opponents are all rocking slightly modified precons.
I really wish the community could reconfigure the power levels. If a precon sits at 5 anymore it really feels like most of the scale is being wasted. People don’t really build decks worse than precons that often. I’d be interested to see a scale more so: 1- Jank 2- Average Precon 3- Powerful Precon/Minimally upgraded precon … 9- Old or Tier 2 cEDH 10- Tier 1 cEDH
I don't agree with putting cedh on the same scale as casual edh. Because if you're playing cedh then you know you're playing cedh. This is the same reason why a pile of random cards also doesn't belong on the list which is pretty much anything below a precon. Fundamentally they are two separate entities and cedh decks are built from an entirely different philosophy towards a self-contained meta. There's no rule 0 and the two aren't meant to be in the same pod. Cedh being on the scale also has the implication that you can upgrade a deck into a cedh deck which isn't true because you would be essentially just building a different deck. i don't like the number scale system in general but if I had to design it it would look something like this. 1 - Awful Precon 2 - Average Precon 3 - "Good" Precon. I have good in quotations here because precons do not have good deck construction and even the "good" ones have plenty of chaff in them. 4 - Lower end of mid power 5 - Mid power - Where decks are optimized enough towards a strategy but aren't fully optimized. Infinites and combos are expected but not efficient. 6 - The upper level of mid power 7 - The in between of a mid power and a high power deck. Almost a transitional period of power where it's going to wipe the floor with mid power decks but isn't good enough to hang in high power casual. 8 - The lower end of high power casual. High power assumes every deck at every level of high power is highly optimized. Where in high power a deck goes I believe is determined by the quality of the strategy. For example every tribal beatdown deck that isn't Marwyn the Nurturer, Yuriko, or Winota would fall into the lower end of high power. Because in high power decks that just tap out to make big creatures you turn sideways aren't going to fly. The most you'll get out of a low power strategy like stompy beatdown is the lower end of high power casual. 9 - High power casual 10 - The upper end of high power casual
This is my issue people have 3-4s call them 7s. If these cards make your deck not a seven then to me you play 2 and 3 power level decks. 8-10 are cedh decks to me.
I disagree with the whole numerical power scale. It’s completely subjective. a seven in one playgroup could be a five or even a nine in another depending on what playgroup it is so just seems redundant to me. Just be honest about running infinite combos and things like Thoracle
It's actually very easy to place Cyclonic Rift, and you guys did it correctly. It's in a category by itself, because when you Overload it, you're suddenly at a table by yourself, because no one likes or wants to play with you anymore.
Certain cards like Cyclonic Rift, and Farewell, should ONLY be played when you are about to close out the game. Otherwise, they prolong/ ruin the game. I hope all Commander players will agree with me on this. There are plenty of games I have Cyclonic Rift in hand, with the mana to overload it, and do not do so. Same with Farewell and other cards like them. Finding the right time to play a spell is something you develop and learn with time. That is skill.
I think this is THE best discussion about power levels I have yet seen. I like the idea of identifying cards that might bump your power level and counting them up and seeing the interactions to determine the overall power level of the deck is a solid approach
Without hyperbole, one of the most important videos the channel here has put out in years. A really nuanced, nuts and bolts discussion on the characteristics which make decks powerful. I know so many people who would benefit by watching this. Also opens a good tangential discussion on the ban list. I have several times posed the question to commander groups if they would let me use my Mox Jet instead of my Mana Crypt. Most agree the jet is the "power down" but won't agree to it because the letter of rules. It really breaks a lot of brains when they dig into it. Also speaks volumes on the legality of Mana Crypt.
The two biggest things I think that affect power level are fast mana and the effect of your commander. Being able to get a five drop commander out turn two is huge, especially if your entire deck revolves around what they do. With the Commander effect, if it’s an affect that doesn’t take a lot of set up to get going, like my Radagast the Brown deck, you just need to drop them and watch the value go.
The dual lands might not change your power level, but they are DEFINITELY a red flag. If they got that money to burn they most likely have powerful cards.
I don't always agree with everything on this show, but this particular episode just resonated perfectly with me. It was awesome to hear you guys give a generic breakdown of what each power level means to you, illustrate the caveats that naturally go with a ranking system like this, and then to get a "fairly comprehensive" list of most of the boogeymen in the format. I will be referencing this episode over and over again in the near and distant future as a guideline. Thank you so much for putting it together!
I have long hated the number system for EDH power level. Like has anyone ever come up to a table and said "I'm playing a 3 today"? Our play group has moved away from that metric and now I uses the following as our way of grading power level: unedited precon, edited precon or untuned build, high powered (some fast mana and tutors), and cEDH (all fast mana and tutors).
Literally what my playgroup does as well, the number system is really weird and really does not work whatsoever. It's way more easy to just say "I'm playing a high powered casual deck" and just play.
I love when my playgroup is like, 'let's all play a precon', implying they'd all be on the same power level. The pregame discussion is what's most important
Dockside first appeared in the Sevinne precin didn't it? And that deck, even with a few upgrades struggles to hit your definition of a seven, let alone an eight.
My understanding is someone building a deck to include Dockside is also probably including ways to abuse it like blinking or reanimating, at that point the deck becomes an 8. This list seems mostly about using these individual cards as a focal point for a strategy makes that deck stronger than an upgraded precon. Prime example being Ad Nauseam, if your goal is to get maximum value out of it the rest of the deck ends up being an extremely fast/mana inexpensive combo which immediately sits at 8/9.
I think "top end of casual" designation is the key point. For lots of folks there is no difference between "top end of casual" and CEDH (I think wilful ignorance is to blame). I would love to play more "high power casual" without auto losing on turn three. I think that skill/playstyle are also key layers to this conversation.
I play mostly cEDH these days and turn 3 wins are usually in that realm. This being said, there is a difference between high powered and cEDH. High powered usually wins turn 5-9 IMO because it's a noncompact combo. Compact combos include the following for cEDH (Underworld Breach, Dockside Extortionist, Thassa's Oracle, Necropotence, Ad Nauseum, or a one card outlet that synergizes with a commander). Fast mana in my opinion is overall telltale sign for power level scaling followed by tutors for casual decks.
agree, and personal metas develop within a play group, i think a group of players eventually power-creep themselves on accident. You start casual 7 or 8 years ago, but now the group fetches into shocks or dual lands minimum, things like that. You understand why you have a sol ring and every deck has one, everyone who runs white has their copies of swords to plowshares, obvious things like that eventually get stronger.
I sat down at a pod and said i had a high power casual deck i wanted to play if everyone else had a deck that could match and got mocked for the rest of the night treating me like i was just a cedh player just trying to pubstop. My deck runs no fast mana or ramp beside thrasios as one of the commanders.
I think something akin to Canadian Highlanders points list could help quantify a general power level for finding balanced tables. It’d be another cumbersome thing to know but it might make for better matched tables
There’s a way to do this without the complexity of remembering the point system. I do it in my rule 0s saying, “I’m playing X commander and I run A, B, and C cards. I shoot to win around turn Y, with Z.”
Me and 3 close friends started playing commander 5-6 years ago, we mostly play casual and rarely use cards above 20$. One of us started to put Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Teferis Protection, Jeskas Will and Farewell into all his decks. We argued a while and we came to the conclusion that those cards broke our meta and ruined the fun. He doesnt want to change his decks, so we ended up playing once every 4-6 weeks instead of once a week like we used to for years.
I think farewell is an odd choice to add to this list, unless said player holes prio and then teferi's protections. Otherwise its just a good reset button.
@@brugalter94 I would agree that it's not as problematic as the other cards. But it still makes a difference if you're the only one that plays farewell, while everybody else is using austere command, or if you use black market connections, while everybody else has phyrexian arena. Those small things add up pretty quickly.
@@brugalter94 its more bc u can be selective and literally hit every major zone for a six mana board wipe, it just does too much to reset a game in a more casual environment sometimes to a point that you dont need it unless the meta is stronger
@@digitalworldsvr7881 Thanks so very much! I watch a lot of other Magic content creators but I don't comment all too much since I'm typically late to watching the videos.
I actually play a Simian Spirit Guide in my Kibo Uktabi Prince Deck because it's an Ape and it can help me bring out Kibo one turn early, which is helpful as the Deck heavily relys on having my commander out. But in that instance i don't feel like it's too strong, it feels much more like a one time use turn one ramp (like utopia sprawl or wild growth). Also i can't really go off immeadiately, i need some more apes out first, get the banana game going etc.
I don't think a single card can change the power level of a deck. How the deck is built, their synergy, and their interaction is what ultimately contributed to a power level. If someone runs a Mana Crypt and the rest of their deck is jank and has no cohesive game plan, there's no way it'll even scratch what I consider a 7.
The is probably my favorite episode you’ve ever done. Thank you for so succinctly discussing several cards and topics that have been on my mind so well and the ramifications they cause to a game!
I think two of the biggest things that go into power level are win-con and the deck’s ability to pull it off. Decks that have a repeatable engine or a combo based win are typically going to be more powerful than basic go wide decks. For example, the Pantlaza precon deck’s win-con is to play a bunch of big dinosaurs and attack for lethal. It’s not going to go off in a single turn, there aren’t any infinite/repeating combos, and there are multiple ways to stop it (board wipes, combat damage prevention, spot removal for big dinos, etc.). Even with upgrading the ramp and adding in higher powered WRG cards, it’s win-con is still to go big for lethal. Contrasting that would be something like a Thassa’s Oracle combo deck. It’s win-con runs a low mana infinite combo that can win in a single turn. If someone doesn’t have spot removal for a combo piece or a counter spell at the moment the player is going for the win, then they win. It also simultaneously wins against the whole table, whereas combat decks probably aren’t going to kill multiple players in a single turn (at least, not until late game with low health totals).
HAVE A RULE 0 DISCUSSION. I think that is the biggest thing. I let people just look through my deck so they know what they are in for. I also make it a point to go over my win con. I think people should know if you run tons of fast mana, combo out on early turns or run a heavy stax build. Try to promote a healthy game state before the actual game begins.
Sol ring is just as bad as mana crypt. When it's played early, that player jumps ahead just like mana crypt. Just bc it's in every precon doesn't make it less aggregious
While I agree Sol Ring is nearly as good as mana crypt, it can't be denied that *everyone has one* and that this does mitigate its power level a bit. Mana crypt is so good because it breaks that balance, so unless everyone else *also* has Mana crypt, you are the only player that essentially gets 2 Sol rings, and in a singleton format, it's all about that consistency.
I get that but it's assuming that everyone is playing sol ring and I don't think mana crypt is op just bc of when it's played with sol ring. It's powerful in its own right. My point is a turn 1 sol ring is a gamechanger in the same way mana crypt is. So saying sol ring doesn't boost your deck in the same way doesn't make sense.
@@salmathe8bitSamurai I agree, but what the video, and commander pods in general, are considering is an **average** power level. So something that everyone has doesn't boost your deck beyond the average, by definition. If no one had Sol Ring, and you played one, it would be a massive boost, and taking it out of your deck is a similarly massive decrease, unless it is replaced with something equally good, like mana crypt.
I like the convo in the vid, it's nearly impossible to determine 'average' power. Even pre cons are not created equal. Throwing a mana crypt in a casual '8' doesnt push it to cedh level. My main point is one card imo doesn't boost your deck to that degree, that'd be a 10% gain to go from a 6 to 7 from 1% (one card) of your deck. And I think some cards like sol ring are dismissed because of access/cost, when the discussion is what impact a single card has on the deck overall. And access aside, sol ring is up there with crypt.
The main difference is that a deck with a Sol Ring may or may not have a Mana Crypt (probably not due to cost)… I have never seen a deck with a Mana Crypt that did not also have a Sol Ring.
I 100% have an omniscience in my enchantress that I plan to ramp to and cast. No cheating it into play (unless you consider a fertile ground cheating).
Jeska's will, in my prosper deck, is glorious. The Deck is definitely an 8. Impulse draw and playing things out of exile snowballs quickly. It also has Mana Geyser, Mana Vault, and Mana Crypt. My Zaxara deck has pretty much every card in this list video that it can run. It's my "9" deck. The deck I'm comfortable playing when people bring out their crazy decks. it's also my most expensive deck. everyone has that one deck they want to bling out right.
@@joshholmes1372 yup, that's why the deck is an easy 8 just with that card. It's basically built to find it, build to feed off treasures, and play from exile to get more treasures. It's a vicious cycle and if I can get to dockside it's usually game over.
My fav Deck (Runo) has: Cyclonic Rift Mana Drain Force of Negation Black Market Connection Rhystic Studies Vampiric Tutor Demonic Tutor ... I have lost to sooooo many Pre-Cons, so many times... Since Neon Dynasty the power of these decks have are imo way higher than a 5. Not complaining but I feel there are decks that need these cards to even keep up with pre-cons these days.
Rachel be PREACHING and dropping gems thru her humor and her knowledge of MTG. Arguably some of the best hot takes and opinions. Her EDH gameplay and interaction is *chefs kiss* you can see it in her deck builds and turn/threat assessment. 💪🏾🔥
One thing I should add is that it's not just certain cards that change your power level, but the way in which you go about trying to abuse these cards. A core concept of cEDH compared to "normal" EDH is to abuse the generous mulligan rules and to sculpt the most explosive start you can get that has a draw/fast mana engine in it. IMO there is a big difference between decks that have some strong fast mana/draw engines in there as "filler" rather than trying to make it the go-to strategy of aggressively going for them early.
Yeah it's the way you play, plus the rules of the social contract changes to play what you want and show no mercy and play as efficiently and as logically as possible and allowing for the break up of the casual social contract. Which is why as both a casual ad cEDH player my scale is as follows. 1 Jank, may have goofy themes like chair tribal or just be draft chaff or hyper budget focused super fun and challenging to build a deck like this but likely will not win. 2 Precon 3 Upgraded precon 4 Precon with additional staples 5 Deck that aims to win with massive clasical haymakers that need a decently built board state to win such as Creator hoof, Expropriate etc and takes some effort to build said boardstae. 6 Hyper efficient deck staples ways but a janky win-con combo of between 3-5 cards with high cmcs to accomplish and does not go against the normal social contract 7 Decks that break the typical casual social contract like runs mass land destruction, chaos and stax are perfectly fine. 8 Any deck outside the cEDH meta but way too powerful to pilet anywhere else and does not use Consult Thoracle, breach, dockside loops or whatever is currently the most popular and consistant way to win. But may use more competitive 2-3 cheap cmc card combos like World gorger, animate dead loops but harder to set up than the meta in cEDH or easier to break apart. 9 At the level of the cEDH decks in the meta but classed as the best cEDH decks so off meta, but not far off 10 The most powerful cEDH deck in the meta But I would comminicate with people what my deck aims to do in accordance with the scale and see if everyone is fine with the context of it and explain how powerful my staples are and what my win con, unless it's cool ass jank like near death experience and barren glory as winning like that is better kept a suprise so everyonen is hype when it happens.
I have never ran tutors. One of the big attractions to Commander for me is the variety of the games. I enjoy seeing and playing different cards every game. I also don't intentionally run any infinite combos.
I will run some of the slower combos in my weaker decks just to be able to close out a game. I mean the really weak ones playing some generally bad cards
You aren’t wrong but I’ve been removal guy, trying to police the table’s powerful cards solo and it never works out. You need the entire playgroup on the same page, or you’ll just fall behind the people actually developing their board.
This made my week. I like cracking packs so I'll have a deadly rollick in a 7. But you did make me feel most of my decks are trending towards an 8. You talked a lot about 7-8 but you could do another episode about 6-7 or even 7-6.
While I do agree that a single fetchland or a single original dual land doesn't change the powerlevel of a deck that much, those cards aren't often encountered alone. I don't think I've seen somebody play a Plateau only to follow it up with an Orzhov guildgate. It often indicates that you're running a 3 colour deck with 9 fetches, 3 OG duals, 3 shocks, and some other solid untapped lands. At that point the consistancy of your mana base pushes the deck up a level (or two).
I'd love to see a video like this for certain commanders, unless you guys have made one already and I haven't seen it! I had a friend who built a "casual" mono blue urza deck and said it was casual since it was voltron and proceeded to tap his equipment for mana lol
xXone..there are plenty of cards that are expensive because of standard, modern or lack of reprints that just aren't as busted in EDH so 10$ is an indicator but not THE indicator
Cost doesn't mean anything when it comes to determining the power level of a deck. I run revised dual lands in my casual decks - because I have the cards & like playing with them - and they do absolutely nothing to influence whether the decks are casual or not.
Whenever an opponent tutors up a win condition, it often feels like the game was stolen. When they tutor up an answer, it often feels like being cut short. Tutors are annoying.
Interesting to hear about JLKs view on jeska's will, when it came included in a precon. While i definitely agree it is a strong card, i dont agree with it being in the same category as mana crypt and dockside.
I took apart my Tivit deck that I had a full art foil displacer kitten in. Wanted to use it cause I love the card so I just threw it in my Brudiclad deck for fun despite not having any obvious synergies with tokens. I forgot about Myr Battlesphere and Purphoros being in my deck along with Dockside and even in the least crazy cases, blinking a solemn like, 3 times a turn just simply from playing mana rocks and clone spells. Displacer Kitten is such a good card.
Completely agree on esper sentinel, I have it in my queen Kayla deck and that deck is a solid 6 but hey when esper hits the table I can draw a couple cards before it gets naturalized.
Everything had summoning sickness. It just isn't effected by it unless it becomes a creature. Enchantments have summoning sickness. They aren't effected by it until Opalescent drops.
There was a game at locals a couple weeks ago. Pod next to me guy had a 7 mana commander that had already been killed once. He recasts it and someone mana drained it bc they wanted the mana for their next turn. My guy packed up his stuff and left.
Had a game not too long ago where my commander got removed 4x, and I need the commander to do basically anything. Play commander they said, it'll be fun they said. I would, but nobody let's my play my damn commander. I was annoyed as hell.
@Josh When I started playing commander way back when, I really loved my `Daretti, Empyreal Tactician` Deck. It was so cool, it has my favorite color combo, I can play my commander without a tax, if I play Hokori the Dust Drinker everyone's permanents don't untap anymore.....Hey wait, where are you guys going? I learned what Stax was. And I never played it again xD
Once I made a comment on a Game Knights video, like "Welcome to collection XYZ episode! We'll see brand new cards blabla" - then: Taiga, Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt...etc (none current present in that collection.). I'm glad you guys don't play these cards anymore, most because If i have to fix mana curves, i'll not buy a Taiga, so seeing my options on your videos is what really matters from my POV.
I have a Karlov deck that gains a ton of life and uses it for gamble/auction effects like Pain's Reward. Ad Nauseam is a fun completely medium card there. Deck is an 8 (so a 7).
This is pretty similar to how I gauge power level on my own. I don’t use the number system, because I thinks it’s arbitrary, and not fully accurate. I generally ask in pregame if anyone is on fast mana, combos, or tutors, and what turn they plan to win by. Then I can adjust the deck I play accordingly
Somebody must have really hurt Josh with a Jeska’s Will. I’ve never thought that card was that big of a deal and definitely a step below some of these other things
It’s powerful, and in some situations can certainly shake up a game, but that’s assuming you get it early on. Unless your searching your deck a lot or drawing a lot it shouldn’t be too much of a recurring issue. There are a few exceptions though, one of which I’m all too familiar with being prosper tome-bound. If someone plays jeskas will while prosper is out, pray they hit only lands.
@@amethystrose3480I have Jeska’ willed into an infinite combo a few times in my mono red EDH deck, the thing about that deck is that as far as power level, it’s easily 8-9, I could very easily tune it to play CEDH by swapping the commander (Urabrask the hidden) to one of my 99 in Godo. I love that deck because I can “play down” to the table and not go HAM if it wouldn’t be fun.
@@CajunJynx hmmm… I’ve always wanted to build a devil themed deck with Raphael, so maybe that would be cool, if he works with tieflings as well that is
Mox Amber + Roghark discussion very relevant. High power cards can be used in casual decks, if the deck doesn't exploid the high power card. I run Mox Amber in my Norin deck, which is "broken", except the whole deal really isn't broken as I'm running a Norin deck! It just elevates the deck to be playable against a tier of decks that I would normally not be able to compete with - but still very casual.
I support Card Kingdom. Had a very big order stolen. Parcel was delivered ripped and cards missing. Card Kingdom was not at fault and still gave me a full refund.
Another aspect of the power level discussion I think should be probably be combo potential. When someone sits down with a deck that's basically a 6, but has random 2 card combos in it that'll win out of nowhere, the deck at that point is in some weird grey area. Maybe not really a 6 anymore but isn't really much more powerful either, maybe "annoying" should be the 11th power level?
I play Jeskas Will and I don't see it nearly as strong as a Cyclonic Rift just my personal opinion Jeskas will is inherently a red spell so not like the red play would have 20 lands like the green player haha xD
Not really comparable. Cyclonic Rift closes out games that run too long and stall out… Jeska’s Will is dependent on what else is in the deck but is mostly a combo piece. I think Jeska’s Will is probably more of a threat (potentially). Most people just hate Cyclonic Rift because of optics (You cast it, attack, win, whereas a lot has to happen after a Jeska’s Will for the win).
@@Dragon_Fyre idk. I've never seen jeska will win a game . At least 10 times I've seen rift dropped and the game is pretty much done. Jeskas will is okay overall imp
@@PureTranceSoul I see it win as a combo piece, where it gets copied and you end up with like 9 extra cards and a heap of red mana... Hard not to win at that point with a powerful combo heavy deck. I think the weaker your opponents decks, the more powerful Cyclonic Rift is… the more powerful your own deck is, the more impactful Jeska’s Will is going to be…
@@PureTranceSoul I typically play below CEDH, so a 7-8 power level. Mostly anything goes except infinite combos. The lowest power level I play would be a heavily upgraded pre-con (Hakbal, Shorikai or Sidar Jabari).
I have a Feather deck, that has NO fast mana, and no Sol Ring. I only put colored pip rocks in the deck, and this vid makes me realize my deck is like a 6 or 7, but it does its thing well is all. Protection package, and a pump package with some spell slinging effects like guttersnipe.
Jeweled Lotus: playing your commander three turns early is the worst-case scenario for JL. If your commander is a 6-drop and you are playing other ramp (which you should be), then a 6-drops best-case scenario is FIVE turns early, or turn one.
Just did the math, it would take 8 mana dorks to have a 50% of one appearing in your first hand. Extra math: If you allow yourself to mulligan twice in search of a dork, 8 dorks would net you an 88.5% chance at drawing a dork! You would only need 3 dorks in your deck to have a 50% chance at having one in your first hand after two mulligans.
Appreciate your opinions. But as you said, non of these are one-offs (except maybe Jeweled Lotus). It's the decks that these single cards are placed in.
One thing that I've discovered is that individual cards often can change the power level. I have 2 "block" style commander decks (only previously standard legal cards from the blocks in the plane). One is Innistrad only (The Gitrog Monster), and the other is Mirrodin/Phyrexia only (Nahiri, Forged in Fury). The innistrad deck is super deceiving because you don't do much early, but all of a sudden you get a Craterhoof or Emrakul. The Nahiri deck is often more scary than it seems because I get mox opal, and decent fast mana. Both are about the same power level, but having the couple strong cards in there really helps bring up the rest of the deck. They end up playing at a precon level, but you still get to play with super powerful cards with a super fun and thematic building restriction. I really want to build more decks in this style, and everyone always loves playing with and against them.
I pulled a showcase foil blood moon, and while it’s one of the most beautiful cards i’ve ever seen, I struggle to find a deck I feel comfortable to put it in. For now it sits in my Rin and Seri deck as a singleton hate piece that I’ll just hold in hand if it’s too rough treatment for someone at the table.
I have always operated under these criteria for power level: 1-4 - Jank (Vorthos or Alt-win cons) 5 - Precon 6 - Updated Precon (Several cards swapped out) 7 - Synergistic (Decks that are well-built and are highly synergistic) 8 - Focused (Highly-tuned, low curve, high density of expensive cards, and wins with combo) 9 - Optimized (Near-perfect mana bases, fast mana, high-impact cards, and tutors) 10 - cEDH
Dockside had a place in my Jinnie Fey deck. I took it out almost immediately, it was almost a certain win whenever I drew it. My main fault with it is how flexible it is, there's almost no way you aren't getting value off of it, even if you don't need mana.
Correcting some possibly misleading information in the video: Countering the 2nd Approach of the Second Sun DOES stop the win. It has to resolve to have any effect.
For me, what makes a much larger difference than individual cards in the 99 are two things: The commander and the overall strategy. I have a Wyll/Sword Coast Sailor-deck that is all about rolling dice and (hopefully) attacking for lethal commander damage with Wyll, but I could add a Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Ancient Tomb and Jeweled Lotus to that deck and it would never become an 8 or 9 on the power scale, simply because of the inherent drawbacks of that commander and that strategy.
Overall, I loved this! Recommended the video to a friend who said y’all were basically 100% on everything said. Personally: Carpet of flowers- if not blue players, or just 1, it’s very of worthless. Maybe it just the pod of mostly 2 colors or green and black primary in 3’s players I play against, but too few people play blue if not playing 3&5colors or below 8/8.5 decks to even warrant pulling it out of my rare’s book. Jeska’s will- we have seen Jimmy(?) wiff 2x (and i think another guest wiff’d as well) on Game Knights out of 5-6(?) times it played. (I also just got into commander recently from modern, so I started watching 4 channels pretty back to back and mixed, so sorry if I’m mixing the channels). Comparing cyclonic rift to it, where you can wiff on mana and/or wiff on top 3 is not comparable. Compared to smothering tithe or tefari’s protection, how often does tefari’s have a chance of still taking damage? Never. (To be fair, I don’t own one, so not a defensive argument for my stuff.) Aura Shards- I do make sure not to play against a tron/enchant deck by declaring it’s in the deck. If they are full enchantment, I’ll just swap it out for a primeval light. Turn 7/8/12+ aura shards is barely targeted removal against enchantment synergistic win cons (because I still need to get it and then draw a creature) & less about turn 3/4/5 sol ring and mana rock removal.
Definitely think Mystical Tutor falls in the same category as Teferi's Protection and Jessica's will. If your in blue there is no downside to having it.
Responding to a combo with an equipment: Helm of the Host with a ETB destruction creature or something like a Sheoldred or even a Soul Warden. (Add any card you mentioned that is a game changer and make it scale exponentially)
First, thanks for the video. It's always subjective, and opening yourself up to comments is good for this topic. A few things which are of course just my opinion: 1. Speaking of subjective, as someone that never seems to connect with an Approach of the Second Sun win due to counter magic, shuffling, mill, or becoming public enemy far outweighs the number of times I've won. In white, like my Mono white Rigo list (I know you all mentioned niche corner cases... etc) I either combat overrun or Approach. Wipes hurt the combat route. I don't rate the deck higher than a 5-6 but i understand your point of niche decks can counter your points... just some personal experience as far as connecting with the card... not about my deck! 2. Tef Pro needs to be "on the list" if a lot of these other cards are on the list. I know Josh said "it's interesting" to Rachel raising this point, and "it doesn't stop anyone doing anything exactly except attacking you" is a point for why someone could attempt to talk down the One Ring does this as well, as it's Pro for one turn. Sure the draw adds up, but I can't sit here and think there's no artifact removal by 3 cycles around the table. 3. Glacial chasm - I think this is a product of the unwritten no MLD rule in edh. Almost nobody runs MLD and only so many run targeted Land destruction. Some decks need defense more than others if they aren't going wide, etc... think propganda/ghostly prison decks. To assume as little as possible, people run permanent removal just based on EDHRec numbers and the controller does pay more life each turn. At its base, some games it may just stick and that's that. 4. Edicts. Yeah, I can't defend them too much other than saying it's Blacks version of board wipes, but delayed. On its own it's repeatable removal. It needs a huge board to be a repeatable board wipe. There's a distinction. Based on average deck data etc, the decks that run these also run the suite of cards that benefit from death triggers, so although boards may look empty, there's data predict that life totals are still heading to 0 (zulaport etc). I get it, it's annoying for some decks to play against. Food for thought, is it more annoying because a player lands a creature to see it die, or feel like they cant play into it? Do counter spells shortcut the attachment to the permanent and just send it to grave immediately, instead?
The Mana base is probably the biggest differentiater I see in casual commander, Fetch Lands, Shock lands or holy og duals make a huuuuge difference and they are very pricey I have 7s cheaper than fetch/shock bases for 2 colors...
Mana base and tutors are what push a decks power level to 8s. You can pack your deck with staples, but if you have a precon mana base and no tutors, you're getting blown out by a real 7-8.
I'm trying to balance between power cards and keeping my level low enough to keep it fun for the table. This has been quite helpful on which cards to rotate with for lower level play, primarily the speed mana and heavy swings(compared to cost). I've been loving the refinement and powers of it rising, yet fear it is accelerated too far for casual play with such cards mentioned in the video. Planning to set up a rotation side to temper with consistency and speed so my commander can still fight to their heart's content. But waiting longer and fewer protections so the board isn't overwhelmed. Laughed good at how I was thinking at peak(and current pieces coming along) just a shitty 8 with it being combat centric(lacking fliers, swarm, trample) but might be nine when I eventually get the biggest level boosters you've listed. In principle.
My favorite combo is Etali Primal Conqueror and Displacer Kitten. It often can loop into just playing your opens deck and yours for free lol. Especially if you happen to play an Elesh Norn Mother of machines as one of those nonland permanents. Once you play that and start blinking back Etali it’s just game over😂.
I think some of these cards aren’t so much game-changing cards, but they are indicators of how powerful your deck is overall. Take Inkshield, for example. Your deck needs to be pretty tuned for you to say to yourself, “Yeah, I’m going to hold up 5 mana this turn and probably next turn just in case I’m attacked”. If you’re that comfortable holding 5 mana, you’ve probably built in a lot of instants and mana sinks such that you can still use most or all of that 5 mana on other things if the attack doesn’t come. If not, and you’re just depending on Inkshield to save your butt, then your deck is probably just a 5 or 6 at best anyway.
Took my son to a LGS for his first commander experience.. he ended up taking the first two wins against the shop owner with Gishath so he switched to Death and Taxes with a Mana Crypt out the gate and then synergized his t2 smothering Tithe with his employee's rhystic. Clowns gave us a third win by going hard against a kid who was warned ahead of time about those types.
