yea let us know what it turns out to be, like 9.2, 9.4 etc. But yours could actually be a true 9.8 because the scammer would buy a true 9.8 and 9.4 and then sell both copies as 9.8s
@@Wr0ngNumb3r they've been removed but comic selects was name used. Going through all my graded comics the clear idication of tampering is the left side
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Since the slabs are openable without obvious tampering signs, the scammers don’t even need to send the books to CGC… they can just as easily switch lower grade books at home. It’s scary to think how many books out there are truly tampered with. I’m afraid this iteration of the CGC case is going to be forever tainted. CGC definitely needs a new case.
All existing iterations of CGC/CBCS Slabs are vulnerable to a Heat as we all just learned. Slab submissions will halt until until a Heat resistant case is announced.
Please let me know asap when a person has completely made it undetectable?!? Please! I’ve been watching and subscribed to immaculate for at least 6 years, let me know when it’s actually accomplished. If you listen to him, the pins get smashed every time, it’s noticeable, but CGC didn’t. He never said “ this is undetectable “ but the book not the grade. If you’re so unsure I’ll be happy to buy your “fake slabs” at 50% the FMV?!? Im so happy this happened, I’m going to make a fortune!!🤣🤣🤣
CBCS does not skip steps! Every book reholdered at CBCS get reevaluated for tampering and slab damage by a grader. Obviously CGC skipped this vital step for a long time!
Did the same person re-holder all of these books? If so, you would think CGC would start to question someone submitting so many copies of ASM 194 in a 9.8. That's crazy.
There are some people(not saying this guy is) who are sitting on thousands of long boxes of uncirculated books for inventory including maybe a dozen or so of high value ASM. Maybe this scammer only sent in 1-5 copies at a time over several years
@@ScarecrOmega These stories of warehouses of books have been around for decades and are absurd. The reason there are so many 9.8s from the 1980s is because there were ten times more collectors in the 1980s than today, and buying multiple copies was a common practice.
@@RobLed boxes of uncirculated books from decades ago happen. They are usually not huge keys but I'm sure it happens. A year ago I bought a case of uncirculated unopened marvel books from the the early 90s. As the years go by there are fewer and fewer out there, but they are out there. If you go on auction sites there are always lots of uncirculated issues. People do sit on them. I also bought 30 copies of X-Men (Jim Lee) #1 uncirculated. There was auction of deadstock comics where one lot had 9 uncirculated copies of Batman #251. They are out there.
I call BS on that 350. I think they identified 350 only from this account. I suspect more accounts and for years. No way are they going to let that cat out of the bag bc that would be the end of CGC trying to fix the mess. This is damage control and I do not subscribe to this determination. May be the minority.
@@jabezcreed Basically we would need the comic community to do another find. Thing is now CGC has been scanning for months so now there has a digital footprint that can be traced when the image and description of the slab can be questioned. Only new for the past 6 months which is the only reason this was found. CGC data hurt them... ironically
The only reason CGC is doing something is because the fans caught it. It is only a matter of time before other ones are caught. This is not the end. 2024 is going to be a tough year for CGC.
Likely won’t even be more than a blip in their business. The comic book community has been scamming themselves for years into thinking comics are the same as sports cards.
It will be interesting to see how this affects the prices of graded comics in the future compared to raw books. I see this as a list that will just continue to grow and be a reference that will need to be checked when purchasing CGC books moving forward in the future. A sad event for comic collecting, but hopefully a new solution will come to market to make sure this can be prevented in the future. Whichever grading company figures it out first with tamper proof cases, inner and outer serials, or whatever the solution will be has a fantastic market-winning opportunity.
I was doing some checking of these books in the CGC registry and of the 55 ASM #194 graded in a 9.8 on the list 37 of them have graders notes, for 9.8s, it struck me as odd as I have over 60 CGC 9.8 universal books and not 1 has a graders note. Is it possible someone inside the company thought since I'm switching books for lower grade ones maybe add some graders notes in case anyone looks it up they can see some stuff was indicated on the notes?
I spoke to the owner of my LCS and he mentioned a story "2 years ago" where a comic graded as 8.0 looked more like a 5.0. He suspected that it was tampered. So this is old news to him.
Remember towards the beginning of 2023 there was a counterfeit book scandal that involved a Hulk 1, a GSX 1, a Hulk 181 and a cover less golden age Captain America? I never heard that they figured out how that was done, but now we know. The million dollar question is “was that the same person or is this proof of a bigger problem”?
Swag your ending hit exactly what I was thinking how many people are gonna want to keep the recognition for the fraud books to actually increase the value
We'll definitely see more books! This is bigger than pretty much what everybody I'd already thinking, and it will, not if, WILL affect the comic industry and all the graded books from the moment this story broke from now on. I agree that there probably will be people that would want to keep a book that has been affected by this. It instantly makes me think about the toy industry and how back in the 90's repro and anything like it, was like being called a witch was to Salem, MA. Look at it now! People still don't approve of repro getting slipped in a vintage toy, and i agree cause that's shady. But we also now have an entire, you could call it an industry i guess (if that's the right word I'm trying to convey with) that is 3d printed figures, kits, accessories, and dioramas that is huge, and it's accepted, has approval, and is getting bigger every year. That's not even including the whole sub market of customizers that have created their own business or store that sells bootlegs and knockoffs, even their own figure lines. So yeah, some people will consider these kinda like bootlegs, that there is a niche market for today. This whole scandal just blows my mind cause I've had at least 12 or more of those high dollar books (that's just from what I'm hearing, haven't looked through the list yet) in my collection that i picked up as a teenager starting back in 1986 when i was 13, but had been steadily reading since 1984. I wouldn't want to find out that a graded book i bought was not what i thought i bought. All i can think is, thank God i switched over and started collecting nothing but action figures and toys from the 70's to present day. Shew!
@@M.ANTHONY_G "This renders the ENTIRE concept as moot." In it's current incarnation. There are steps they could take to make it 100% tamper resistant.
I bought graded comics 10 to 20 years ago that always looked lower than what the grade was. Might have gotten ripped off and never knew. I sold them off to other people.
I've heard complaints for years of people complaining they were slipping because a graded comic looked like it was graded too high than what it actually looked like in the slab. So this could have been a scam going on for the past 20 years.
I am doing a price check on the list ... about a dozen books to go ... X-Men and Wolverine ... good ol' CovrPrice has crapped out ... not counting signature premiums and some MJ premium's ... using CP latest sale price ... running total is at $1.281 million ...
I already checked the list for my 138 slabs and managed to dodge the bullets. Probably because I'm a mid to low grade collector. However, now I have to look for signs of opening and re-sealing with Heat. I'm contemplating jumping in the BIG auctions coming up and loading up on the 13 remaining keys I've been chasing for over four years. I'm thinking folks are going to be watching these auctions instead of bidding. I may be stepping in front of a Mack Truck. What are you thinking?
One should always be careful of cracked slabs (and switches) but it appears all or most of this situation involved failures in the 'reholder' process (where CGC did *NOT* reverify the comic in the inner well when a 'reholder' request was made on these high value book).
Yes, you were not and never were the target audience. If they switched your 5.5 for a 4.5, the risk was never worth the reward. Stop flattering yourself and others on here.
Scammers are scammers so here is my question. one person was doing this for 12 years. How many people did said person share that with who also did this and CGC is unaware? Plus how many did the scammer swap books and did not send to CGC for reholder. I think this is much bigger then the list
How can anyone trust CGC if they submit their suspect books to them?? They've already proven themselves to be 100% untrustworthy/incompetent. I would be suspicious of every CGC copy of the books named on that list. They're on that list BECAUSE they're easy to compromise AND are of high enough value to bother with.
This is likely the tip of the iceberg with this scandal/scam. The raw market will benefit. CGC should no longer be the primary standard for grading services. Hopefully a better gc or better ones will emerge. I only have one CGC graded book but am leery of buying another.
My speculation is that there was someone inside of CGC who was facilitating this scam. That's likely how they were able to compile a list so fast (offer the person a more lenient punishment in exchange for info and cooperation). Pure speculation. The person / people involved are going to wish they hadn't done it; you don't tamper with a company's reputation and income stream and expect to get off lightly. Thankfully, CGC did produce a list relatively fast. It appears comprehensive and I think this incident will make them better. They'll definitely be vetting books a bit more carefully now -- AND the people who grade them.
CGC is either totally in on this scam OR they are the most bumbling incompetent prats imaginable. Neither option encourages me to submit my books to them.
Swagglehaus I like you and respect your opinion very much and I understand what yall RU-vidrs are doing when you say things like “oh I respect CGC released a list” etc. they would never have done any of this if not caught red handed with irrefutable proof and CGC deserves no props they are not doing this to look out for consumers they are doing this to save their own ass end of story.
They should put something fluorescent on the book, some sort of watermark that's removable and doesn't affect the grade, something can only see with a UV light like a bank note.
Slab defenders keep saying that CGC will be fine and then insist that 'buyers just need to be more informed and learn about comic conditions before spending their money".... But then whats the point of buying a slab over a raw book if u got to spend the time evaluating it cuz now you cant fully trust the number anymore? The point of slabs was to have a third party do the evaluation for you, so you no longer had to just go off the word from a rando comic seller, and now the answer is 'You need to learn about comic grades so you can confirm the 9.8 grade on the slab is accurate?!?!' This is such big fat stinky joke. If the answer is going to be "always do your homework" then do your homework and just buy raw instead of inflated nonsense slab prices and supporting bad companies like CGC.
RIP = graded comics. It’s a guessing game of which comics are authentic in the holders given any holder could’ve been compromised. What a mess. Every single graded comic is affected, despite CGC’s wishful thinking, these are only the “known” scams. You can be sure there are more.
Exactly! That's what I was thinking that no matter what they say, the question of doubt is on everything now that has been graded. This is huge and the ramifications and how this will, not if, WILL negatively affect the comic industry from today moving on forward?! Glad I switched over from comics to action figures I in the 90's, SHEW!!!! Crazy stuff!
I don’t wish ill on any collector, as I mainly collect graded cards, but this would be as shocking as PSA slabs being able to be resealed. If you can open any slab without it being obvious then the “authentication” element holds no value. Comics are even scarier because at least with cards you can see the full collectible slabbed, comics you can only see the cover / back. Easier to hide discrepancies internally within the slab for a comic.
CGC has recently expanded into VG and VHS grading services. Now everything they grade under their collectible umbrella that offers a reholdering service could be in question here. Afterall if a scammer can do this with comic holders they could probably do it for other CGC holders.
Doubt the person will show in a public forum he should be looking for a lawyer at this point. Mail Fraud just top of my head if he had multiple people in on in than could be rico case who knows at this point. All I know is dudes best bet is to disappear asap. Doubt Blackstone is going to just take it on the nose and carry on.
By my math, the re-holster scam, specifically, would generate 50% "properly" graded books. I think you're right. This isn't the only instance. Maybe that's why half the 9.8s look worse than the 9.6s ... they're all 9.4s!
That's what I'm saying. Ridiculous they could let a book like that slip by. But there is also the chance that particular book is legit, we don't know what books actually were scammed unless owners of these books crack them out and share what they find.
CGC absolutely has to pay for this stuff. People forget they don’t just do comic books but coins, cards, video games, etc etc. This is their bad for not being diligent but if they make those people whole then that’s that.
My question is: where do you think they started? You dont just start this with high value books the risk out weighs the reward. You have to start with cheaper books to wien out mistakes, hiccups and getting used to the process. I didnt just start pressing and cleaning keys. I started with dollar books. This list only includes higher value books. Where are the rest? This person probably had multiple accounts with CGC over a few years
All you folks sure do have a ton of faith in people selling expensive raw comics. I mean, are you really going to buy a comic worth thousands of dollars because some dealer says it's NM? Are you really going to trust digitized images? Or are you going to stop buying online altogether? Even if you're anti CGC and slabs, you must acknowledge that scams were rampant before slabbing, especially with expensive comics. Perhaps it's best not to buy comic books at all.
That’s just what they found , my assumption is about 35-50% of cgc books are compromised , I recently got a new mutants 87 9.0 and to Levi don’t think it’s 9.0 it has creases I’m sure this guy isn’t the only one that was doing this
Question for the DEALERS on here... for those who are still selling CGC slabs, and the ones who are saying "I know my slabs are good", or telling people to do their due diligence, now, I'm NOT trying to be snarky - but to all of those dealers... Would you let me buy your slab, and allow me to send it to CGC for cracking and re-grading, and if it doesn't come back with the same color label with a grade that is VERY close to what's on the CGC label.... Would you take the book back, and refund me my money? I don't think you would agree to this (I wouldn't blame you - for the same reason I'm not going to buy your CGC slab in the first place because... the grade on the slab is simply no longer 100% reliable). Is Heritage going to guarantee that the comic in the CGC slabs they're auctioning have not been swapped out? There's a related question - are dealers thinking twice about buying CGC Hulk 181 slabs? They know that it very well could be missing a Marvel Value Stamp - right? They can use a magnifying glass all they want... but are they going to take a chance that the book inside is missing a stamp and worth 10 cents on the dollar? Dealers who answer honestly can understand why most collectors aren't going to pay over a couple hundred dollars for any CGC slab at this time - not when the CGC slab itself is potentially hiding a defect that reduces the value of the comic by 90%, and the swap is undetectable. And because the CGC slabs are so vulnerable - once the new slab design comes out, all $500 and up slabs will HAVE to be re-slabbed to be saleable - at a cost of about $100 and up per slab, at which point, the buyer may find out that they get back a CGC purple label, or an 8.5 when they paid for a 9.6, so they've lost 90% of the value they paid. In my opinion, neither dealers nor customers can trust any CGC slabs that are for sale, or any that we bought, and there is no way to "do" due diligence. The only CGC slabs that I am now sure of are ones where I sent the book in raw, and even those are trustworthy only to me - no one else can trust mine, and I can't trust theirs - because anyone could be fibbing or forgetful as to how they got their CGC slabs. If the book is NOT in a CGC slab... I would be able to spot restoration, missing coupons, color touch, married pages - at LEAST as well as the people at CGC. CGC slabs don't guarantee anything - all they do now is HIDE potential flaws. ALL slabs are going to have to be cracked and re-slabbed into what will be a more tamper proof slab - until then (which is at least a year away) collectors and dealers are both going to stop buying CGC slabs that are over $100.
I'm sure that it's not only one person who was doing this scam it's only one person who got caught so there are more books out there that's been tamper with
I bought a 9.8 ASM 252 from briva3 in Oct., but the CGC cert # is not on the released list. Did I get lucky and buy the clean book, or did CGC just not include the Cert # on their list? How am I ever to be sure...? Wonder if I can get CGC to add, "This book is a clean book sold by the scammer" lol Sorts like Swag suggested
I’ve been collecting for 25 years now. I consider myself an experienced collector. For anyone getting into comics now or is still fairly new this world. I truly suggest to stay away from slabbed books.
Odd that, out of 350 books, only 2 are DC. Given the other types of books being targeted, I would have expected to see at least a handful of Batman Adventures 12's on here.
Well, I wont be touching a single book on THAT list. Every CGC copy is potentially tainted. And this is just ONE reholder scammer that they know about. Censorship is rife on the CGC boards. Not only are they mindnumbingly incompetent, they're nasty and petty too. They really despise RU-vidrs for some reason. I sincerely hope CGC goes bankrupt this year.
@swagglehaus 10:30 I mentioned on the cgc forums, when CGC starts to get these tampered books back, all of these books should get a pedigree label, " Mark Jeweler Fooler" 😂 1) it is cgc way of acknowledging they are not infallible, things happen and they took care if it. 2) The book's complete history is retained, including it's once tainted background. 3) On the resale side of things, qualified/restored books sell for less than their counterparts and can be a harder, slower sale. It could help elevate their resell value and speed up the sale of the item since it is now "unique".
Lets just SAY outloud the REALITY: This scandal renders any and ALL graded comics as MOOT. NULL. Any 9s are no longer 9s. This is THE END of the ENTIRE graded comics NONSENSE bubble that has engulfed the aftermarket industry. If it can happen once= it CAN happen AGAIN and MIGHT have been happening many times before. Time to go BACK to the old ways of looking at a copy and buying it based on each situation.
there will be people that save them. I dont really mind that too much as long as the info is clear to anyone they sell it to. But there will be people who will just keep it a secret and try to sell it anyway. those are the ones that will suck. and it will keep this story going on for years as they are poping up over time.
They need to have video evidence of grading and encapsulation provided to the customer as mvs stamps /mark jeweler's etc can't be verified once the case is sealed off and as long as a 9.8 is the acceptable highest grade given no on bothers to question the actual item anymore
I posted this on another video, but hoping to get other views here...Interesting that they haven't come out and said that it wasn't an employee or someone inside CGC? If it's a dealer, why not make it easy and tell his store or ebay name? Think about it, if you buy a used Toyota (or any brand), and you find that the odometer has been rolled back, Toyota isn't going to pay you the difference just because their odometer was able to be compromised. You would have to sue the dealer you bought from, or the person who rolled it back. With CGC taking all the responsibility, is that an admission of "guilt?" I'm not accusing CGC of anything, but it would be best for them to state clearly that this was done by someone outside of their organization.
This could turn the market upside down on those particular titles. ASM 194 and ASM 300.... Flooded with fraudulent 9.8s. North or South who knows... However, there will be an impact.
The only thing separating a dollar comic and one thousand dollar comic is a piece of plastic and a label - the whole system is flawed. CGC have a monopoly on graded books which is bad for comics.
There are 58 ASM #194 that he graded as a 9.8 and there’s only like ~540 on the census. That’s just over 10% of all the ASM #194 9.8’s that are fraudulent. ASM #300 he graded over 100 and there’s around 1500 9.8s. That’s 6-7% part of the scam. And that’s just that we know of from this one person, let alone anyone else doing this
Wow now I have even more questions. How on earth were they swapping signed books?? Were they forging signatures or just finding books that have the same signatures in the same spot?? I feel those would be a lot easier to spot
I'm guessing they had two copies of the book - one signed & one not - they put the un-signed book in the "this is signed" case & get re-holdered - that's one sale. Then, they submit the now raw signed book - second sale.
@@Scott.B.Chapin still doesn’t really make sense to me since CGC wouldn’t give the second raw book a gold label since the signature wasn’t witnessed? I’m gonna just assume they forged a signature? But still doesn’t really explain how you’d get back two gold labels
Honestly I really wonder how many other people did this and how many tampered with comics are out there ... Also how many slabs that have been cracked out for a press and clean, than no old labels submitted to adjust their census. How off are the numbers?