Chinese JIAN Review - Is it a RAPIER? Scarlet Sunrise from LK Chen 

Chinese swords are under appreciated. Your presentation is very interesting.

You have such an impressive knowledge of swordsmanship that enables you to handle and understand swords from a different culture than yours. I enjoy very much watching your videos. Thank you!

The main reason why rapiers were only invented in the very late middle ages in europe is the quality of available steel. Until the discovery of the blast furnace (just before the industrial era) which could make pig iron with high carbon, european steel had to be made with the cementation process: you start with a low carbon wrought iron bar, and you put it in coal for a long time to absorb some carbon through the cementation process. This created a very heterogenous steel, with a brittle exterior and a soft core, and it could only support a certain length before it would be at high risk of failing. (You could also stack cemented steel ingots into a crucible and weld them together, then stretch them which made more homogenous bands of hard steel in the iron in the Damascus steel process but that tech was not available everywhere). In china, the blast furnace had been discovered since ancient times, so they could start with a high density pig iron ingot, then temper it in oxygen for days until the carbon density was just right, in a process basically equivalent to our modern industrial processes. They had better access to "springy steel" which would return to its original shape after being bent, instead of snapping or staying bent. Basically, the rapier is the peak design for an civilian unarmored dueling weapon, and different civilization's time required to discover it is dependent on the quality of available materials.

This kind of sword shows the confidence the Chinese had in their metal to make such a thin blade without fear of it breaking.

So the issue is that it would definitely be a cutting sword. In traditional Chinese swordsmanship, we cut and slice with it. I suppose with a sword like this we would say its not ideal for "hacking". For cutting with a jian like this as well as most Ming and Qing jian the techniques would include: quick flick cut, sliding forward or flick pulling cuts, downward pulling slices across the muscle between the neck or shoulder, upward pulling slices under the armpit and inner arms, as well as the inner thighs and the crotch (mind you that is assumming certain types of pants and a short tunic). I think you should do water bottles but also consider some sort of cuts through clothing and gambeson, and maybe fruit

I think I remember pictures of Chinese courtiers carrying their scabbarded swords in their hand, which would lend credit to the idea of the scabbard as a weapon.

As a primary high class civilian sword, that sword makes so much sense in its time in history. Imagine how good the smiths who could make such a narrow blade in the 5th center were for their time, how much prestige the thing would have had and how much a wealth signifier it would be in its time. Sounds like that sword was literally a piece of steel jewellery when it was first "popularised" (relatively, if any joe could afford it it wouldnt be a status symbol).

Cutting suggestion: tip cutting against cloth and a flesh analogue. If some Bronze Age swords can be called rapiers then these jian can be classified as rapiers too.

As Matt mentioned, jian was mostly used by a wealthy aristocrats/officers, who at the time were well trained in martial arts. Proper jian technique required a lot of training and was mainly used for cutting tendons, ligaments and arteries with a surgical precision. A Dao (saber) on the other hand could be more easily used by not so skilled soldiers for cutting heads :) So the proper cutting targets for jian would be small branches and tree leaves.

Skallagrim and his mate Swordsage went over the differences between that type of Jian and a swept hilt rapier and came to an interesting conclusion The name we give to sword types is down to how we use them not exactly how they're built, Swordsage made a point of the fact that in Chinese Wushu you don't thrust the same way which is why the weight wasn't any closer to the hand They're both "rapiers" but from completely different times and parts of the world and made to compliment 2 different fighting styles. I'm trained with rapiers and have handled a Jian like that and can honestly say he was 100% right, they're nothing alike

My guess before watching the video: "It depends on what you think a rapier is"

Great video. I love your reviews of these underrated and lesser known ancient sword reproductions from LK Chen.

When I was teaching Kung Fu, the style that I learned had weapons forms that came from the Chinese Opera. That meant they looked cool but they weren't overly effective. Then I started learning Capoferro fencing through the SCA. I noticed that plate 7 lined up nicely with plate 17, 8 with 18, etc. So I created a two person form based on the plates using my Praying Mantis footwork and his techniques using a jain for the sword. I then made modifications using the dao and cutting moves instead of the thrust centric moves. That went well, so I did the same for a bo staff (gun in Chinese, but when I say I did it for a gun everyone gets the wrong idea for some reason.) That went well, so my next attempt was with a spear, and that was a total failure.

I’m going to have to join Matt’s patreon so he can afford some heat in his garage.

It would be really cool if you could cover Sogdian and Sassanid swords sometime

a blade this long in the Classical Age is a great feat.

Love your channel, Matt, absolutely love it!!!

I would be interested to see how well a blade like that can cut through different types of cloth.

I want an LK Chen, Magnificent Chu Jian, with a “saber hilt,” maybe a 3 bar or something of the like, put onto it, that would be just wonderful.

it was cool to see how much fun you had playing with the scabbard at the end

Great video as always Matt

In fact, in Middle Europe, the sword terminology distinguishes between rapier (civilian weapon, often longer and more thrusting-oriented) and kord - military weapon, a bit shorter, sturdier, and more balanced for both cut and thrust.

Very nice lookin sword and lots of cool info as usual. Thanks for all the cool videos.

Thank you for further exploring and sharing your thoughts about Chinese swords, Matt. And yes, if you watch a lot of more classic tv/movie choreography of Chinese swordplay, including the 2002 Zhang Yimou film "Hero", the scabbard is most certainly often used as a parrying tool or as a bludgeoning weapon.

Maybe they were holding it closer to the end of the hilt? It may provide more protection to the hand as the hand is farther away from the guard. It might also feel more like a rapier in the hand, with the mass distributed a bit differently than when held at the guard. Hopefully Matt can try it out and tell us.

Would love to see the jian cut silk. Or a pork shoulder for thrusting test. Thanks Matt for sharing this with us. Always great content. Greatly appreciate the time you spend putting all this together. Cheers!

Re: testing: I think using your "normal" tests would still be quite informative, as it would serve as sort of a "base case" that could be used to compare the Scarlet Sunrise's cutting performance against the other swords that have been subjected to a similar test (e.g. the other LKs). Also would LOVE to see a review of the Flying Phoenix :)

Funny how the rapier is called "西洋剑" or basically translate to " western jian" As when rapier first appeared the jian of the period is predominantly narrow blade civilian weapon. One of the thing is the hilt and accessories is the social status. Jade fitting ( looking at the green destiny sword from "crouching tiger hidden dragon") Is an exclusive for imperial family, so in the 2010 three kingdom drama Cao Cao can be seen using a Hand period jian with jade fitting ( an act of audacity/ rebellion against the regime) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ObYP1jTJ9MM.html Then bronze / gold is a status of officials, government officials or dukes with titles Can use the fittings. Engraving and interlaced with silver, pearl or gemstone and more elaborate decoration Is for showing off wealth. Since jian is a upper social class weapon, these two is the most common fittings. The jian scabbard is often used as a blunt impact weapon ( pommel strike and scabbard strike) before it is drawn, or the scabbard being a tool to constrict an attacker without killing them.

Really looking forward to some test cutting footage of this sword!

I really love your contents. Subscribed

I’d really like to see comparative testing of the jian and rapiers in how cutting and thrusting attacks were affected by representative civilian clothing v exposed flesh.

Nice vídeo! You mencioned the Destreza in one moment. A video about Verdadera Destreza will be wonder! 😉

Matt is really having a good time with the jian/scabbard weapon set :)

Great Explanation!!!

+scholagladiatoria *The Sun Empire used the 剑 Jian as a court sword from the Tang Dynasty;* the Jian served as a prototype for the 剑 Turugi in Japan. Pattern forge-welded for depthwise strength, the Jian appears better suited for cutting than thrusting due to the broadhead point.

i really like the point you made about the scabbard at the end. it would be great to see a practical reconstruction of how a duel wouldve looked with these. it imagine it wouldve been very very fast even by duelling standards.

Thrusting at a piece of ballistics gel with fabric over it, to simulate a person in clothing. Also, I'd love to see a review of that rapier you showed, or something similar.

Very interesting Matt, I knock about with a Tinker's hand and a half, my lads love cutting with katanas, never fenced. Fell in love with this blade, maybe just I got old enough?

The jian is an amazing sword. See if you can find some information on a movement called stirring , basically rotating the handle to create various cones in the air. It's quite fun as you stir your arm and blade around your opponents to find your line to cut or thrust.

I love that you thought about using the scabbard as a supplement to the jian, it's a really interesting set. I just wonder what the jian would look like in fencing paired with the proper techniques, as all I've been able to find are people using the jian in a similar way to a rapier.

Beautiful sword and scabbard. I'd like to see how it cuts compared with a rapier. Perhaps you could test it against padding like a gambeson, tatami mats, etc. Also, did you see Metatron sword fighting on PS2 using VR and his actual body to fight? Matt, I'd love to see you do that, and/or a demonstration of fighting styles using different sword types.

13:35 - Similar to unscrewing the pommel, the removeable hilts are so you can throw it at your enemies to end them rightly.

The same "moving the handle behind the point" is done in Chinese swordsmanship too. It's just that since there is a different COP and POB, the center of rotation is in a much different position, giving some slight variation

Thank you Matt!!!! I've been saying this about Jian scabbards for years, because it's the only way a lot of offhand motions in Kung Fu forms make any sense. However people aren't very receptive to the idea

About using the scabbard in a fight: That's something you often see in chinese dramas/tv shows. I don't know if it represent real historical techniques but as you said, it would make sense.

It would be interesting to see it cut in comparison to a Sabre and or Longsword. With some type of consistent substance (ballistics gel, clay, etc..)

I am curious how it might perform agains a tatamimatt with a wig. Or some sort of cloth attached to the Target. Hair can be quiet sturdy and redirect a smaller blade. Just my guess.

For testing the point and edge of jian for thrusts and strikes (light cuts, possibly even draw cuts, but not cleaving or hewing cuts) I usually suggest textile; durable silk (costly but somewhat accurate to the time/place of use) or linen pulled somewhat taunt. For how well it would work against exposed targets... I am loath to suggest this because it wastes good food... a hamhock or pork shoulder. Simply put, the meat of a pig is not terribly dissimilar from the meat of a human, and works well for demonstrating efficacity of a weapon. For a bonus round, drape the silk or linen over the swine flesh, that will do as good a job as any option in simulating it's combative purpose. Oh, and by the way, thank you. Your reviews were highly ranked amongst those that helped me decide on acquiring an LK Chen blade. A decision I shall never regret.

Clothing. If this is a civiliance self defense weapon, how about we try it with clothing and see how survivable people can be?

Well, the jian is a cut and thrust sword which prefer the cut. The rapier is a thrust sword which some can cut. The jian was a battlefield sword, but not the type of jian you show. The dao, or chinese saber, was the battlefield sword for the poor which in time replace the jian as battlefield weapon. The classic battlefield jian is more like an european arming sword.

I'd love to see some destructive testing and simulation of edge on edge contact. Something like Matthew Jensen's reviews of katanas so you can really get a sense of the construction and what the blade can handle

You should check out Tai Chi Jian videos. There are both Yang (more point) and Chen styles (more cutting). I seem to recall that LK Chen made a very good video but haven't found it as write this.

I’ve always been curious about using a scabbard as an off hand weapon, it’s always seemed plausible especially in Asian swords that tend to be tucked into a belt rather than clipped on

In regards to testing, it'd be interesting to see what kind's of cuts/attacks the scabbard to help deflect/parry - similar to some of your shield tests.

Especially watching the end of the video regarding the scabbard...sword canes. They dont HAVE to have so spindly a blade. You could easily have a sword cane with a one inch to even close to two inch wide blade. Really think we need to make these much more common in the modern day using jian blades as inspiration.

I've always loved the look of these swords, very elegant.

Thrust testing on pork shoulder or the like of course.

Nice field jacket, btw!

Hi Matt!! Could you please cut several types of fabric, from more thin clothing-like to more thick gambeson-type? It will be intersting to compare how thinner and thicker swords deal cutting through them

This is an excellent video, thank you. One example (in literature at least) of "gentleman" carrying the jian into battlefield. In Romance of the Three Kingdom, Liu Bei's weapon is jian. in contrast with his two more fighting inclined oath-brothers: Guan Yu (who wields something akin to a glaive) and Zhang Fei (who wields something like a lance / spear). With the exception of a few early battles, Liu Bei is almost never portrayed as a fighter / duelist, but mostly as a commander / leader. So that sort of matches your concept here of a gentleman / officer carrying jian.

Id be very interested in a comparison between historical and modern sword material science. Obviously a practical medieval sword is going to be stronger and more durable than a cheap wall hanger you get at a flea market. But how expensive do you have to go before you're above medieval average? Where does the best craftsmans steel place?

Hey Matt do you think you could make a video comparing Chinese polearms to other nations? Guan-Dao vs Battleaxe, Ji vs Halberd, etc.

There is a long history of using the scabbard of such Chinese swords as a parrying weapon. It helps to preserve the edge and is a perfectly serviceable substitute if one does not have a shield, although that particular style of sword wasn't normally used with a shield, that was more often the Dao, or Chinese sabre. When I think of a comparison between the Jian and the Rapier, I usually think of it in terms of usage. Both are quick, nimble blades, mostly used for thrusting, but capable of delivering nasty cuts if necessary. Both are very elegant weapons relying more on speed and agility than brute strength. I would really like to see an honest comparison of the two fighting styles of the weapons focusing on their similarities and even some demonstrations of the Jian against the Rapier that would showcase those similarities, as well as show their differences. Perhaps some light sparring just to demonstrate those facets of each weapon.

For testing, would you consider focusing on the thrust and test how effective it is as penetrating through different layers? Some suggested materials include cloth, rawhide leather, etc...

Try cutting and thrusting simulations of lower end/foot soldier armors like a gambeson, lynothorax type material, soft and hardened leather

I really like the idea of using scabbard as a mace.

For testing precision delicate cuts and pokes I would suggest pumpkins, maybe squash.

I think it would be cool if you did a panel of swords and various tests to compare this sword with. A rapier, a small sword( or something similar), and a jian would be good I think.

I learned about using the scabbard as a secondary weapon/shield from ruroni kenshin :p

For that sword, I would like to see a thrust and withdrawal on a free standing tatami roll. I thought this would be a good test of my technique.

The sound that made when it got put back in the scabbard was so tasty!

Early Bronze Age Aegean/Italian swords can get quite long, I've heard them called rapiers on occasion, based on length. It's harder to get an example of course, but bronze age swords are quite interesting in their own right and oddly enough get shorter over time. There's some interesting stuff to talk about.

Clearly, higher-class gentlemen worldwide had some sort of view on cool stabs being more gentlemanly than cool slashes.

I'd still like you to see trying to cut wood with it, just to see if it defies your expectations. :)

That is a gorgeous Jian Matt, however, my heart is set on L.K. Chen's "white arc" model...it is so unique looking yet simple.

Jianerals and jiantlemen is all I could think about on rewatch

Cool outfit mate!

I would like to see test cutting of its own scabbard to see how well it would hold up and maybe thrusting against a modern hema jacket just to see how stab proof they actually are.

Maybe a triple target, melons or water bottles on poles/pedestals, where you do a thrust/cut/thrust to show why and how manouverable those types of swords are. Not sure if it would be a good test though.

I want you to test the blade on rapscallions or maybe a cad.

Scholagladiatoria, can u (or anyone who knows) please tell me where u and Lucy bought that Mary Rose Backsword as I am hoping to buy one myself sometime in the future when I get the chance!!!

In Jow Gar (and Shaolin) Kung Fu, the use of a Jian is one of the basic 12 forms. If you observe the form you notice that it is predominantly a point weapon and if handled correctly there is no need for an extensive hand guard. Interestingly, the preferred weapon is the curved broadsword or Doa.

Ahh wanted to know this ever since I saw it in CK2! One of the very best weapons in the game. And now, an expert's opinion!

It makes me think of the sword inside a swordstick, to be quite honest. A very interesting design, and its handling also seems to be interesting. I kind of want one.

can u make a video on the difference between a dagger and a knife?

have you ever done a video on chinese 9 ring broadswords? would be interesting

I'm a year late, but if anyone is paying attention that's making content considerations-- I'd love to see their performance vs. silk and (at least some discussion of)the armor of their period!

Matt, in your experience or research have you ever seen someone use a jian or dao in some kind of combat? like kendo or hema but in chinese martial arts context? There´s any practice like that today?

Jian is a high class weapon. they took thousands of hours to master and were much more expensive to craft compared to Dao (Chinese Saber) or other weapons. I've been practising Taijiquan for 5~6 years and the Jian for about half of that. it is not a chopping weapon and not necessarily piercing either. the sharpest part of the jian is the top third, which is used for small cuts, more like tapping. this is a precision weapon, not for swinging wildly. I don't know much about rapiers but what you show at 10:00 about keeping the point still and moving the rest of the body is one of the exercises we practice a lot as well.

I would love to see you talk about the da dao cuz i nver like the jian

Well presenter, I would point out that your best cut with a Jian must be done with a smooth draw motion as you swing. I would love to see you cut on a ballistic dummy with that. Would there be any benefit to a mono steel rather than pattern welded?

Thick winter clothing placed on a lump of material of roughly human tissue-like consistency should be a versatile and informative medium for thrusting tests. IIRC you once made a video about winter warfare and how thick sturdy clothes invalidate most sword cuts, forcing sword users to rely mostly on thrusts. I'd personally really love such a test done with a variety of different swords - it's a shame that thrusting capabilities are very rarely tested and showcased. I think that most swords (without rounded points) should be able to punch through that medium with sufficient force, so repeating the test with increasing amount of power behind the thrust could allow to rank the different swords relative to each other.

Are the removable handles there to make it easier to salvage components of the sword in the case that the blade breaks?

One of my favourite Japanese Anime: Bleach showed one of the characters using his katana and saya in a dual wielding manner (he pulls a trick by swapping the two behind his back to wringfoot the opponent- silly fun, but maybe with an historical precedent)

I would like to try practicing Taiji Sword form with this sword. I think it would be a great Taiji blade.

I really wish LK would do an interpretation of the famous Sword of Goujian! Looking at its proportions, it looks like it would be a much better cutter than any of the very narrow-bladed Jian that he's made so far.

Compare Jian to Spatha pls

Another Beautiful Sword from L.K Chen!!!

Have you seen LK Chen’s German Saxony Rapier? Looks very interesting

Still cant get to fence without the hand protection. I really like jian style swords, but fighting against one with a sword is for me strange. A thing of practice. The scabbard makes sence as to over come this issiue. Or it was more used against people with different weapons at all. As an selfdefence tool if the upper class you probably did not encounter robbers or bandits with swords like this in town. My guess, i can be completly wrong.