Yup. Snake oil salesman caught out with lies and BS. hahaahaaa. Did you know opening your speakers, dipping your loudspeaker wadding into the juices of surströmming then putting back inside your front ported speakers improves bass response, makes treble sweeter?
They're scum, utter scam artists. I hope the world they see crumbling around them falls sooner rather than later. WE LOVE THE TRUTH (AKA.... TRANSPARENCY ;P)
Rob starts the interview by stating that he didn't read the ASR article? That's all I needed to hear. Why should I bother with another 49 minutes of video for a guy that couldn't take 10 minutes to look at the bench measurements? Seriously, kick rocks. That told me all I needed to know.
He said he didn't read it, but he knew plenty about it. There had been lengthy discussions about it on Head-Fi by this point so there were no mysteries
Out of the gate Rob states, “So I haven’t officially read the ASR article so I don’t know what he was doing in terms of his measurements.” The typical response to smoke and mirrors.
The guest agreed to an almost hour long interview in response to an ASR measurement report, but didn't provide you the courtesy of reading it ahead of time to see what the complaints were? Something smells poopy in here.
@@PassionforSoundthere is no need to discuss hard data with audiophile idiots. Now it's your job to provide evidence to counter his data. Good luck with that.
This is an insanely long 1-hour video with you and a totally senile Rob Watts clutching at straws to uphold a box costing several thousands €,£ or $ which would be better kept off any rig if fidelity to the source is important.
Now, I would like to see you interview Amir from ASR, then go over Amirs measurement results of the Chord M-Scaler. This would be the unbiased way to get the real facts, and what it means to the customer purchasing the Chord M-Scaler. Amir is very open to reviews of his findings. I am very curious of why Rob Watts from Chord has not done this? Intriguing!
He won’t do it, because the measurements are true. This would definitely make me stay away from Chord products. Changes something that only the human mind can determine.😂
Yep, I attempted to have a conversation over on ASR and it proved mostly fruitless with the one bright spot being a forum member with some very interesting insights and thoughts. Sadly, Amir chose to ignore my direct questions and focus on trying to discredit my subjective listening experiences and teach me how to do it right.
If you can hear a difference then therefore there is a difference, this idea that if something measures the same that it sounds the same is ridiculous. It's very simple, purchase whatever sounds good to YOU.
Right off the top, his claim that he has not read the ASR review lacks credibility. Add to this the fact that the Chord Dave also tested to performance levels below that of a $150 DAC, I start to form a pretty strong opinion. It is time that measurements proving transparency be considered table stakes for all digital and D/A converters, because there is simply no excuse for that not to be true.
Nonsense, you praised the mscaler prior but now the truth comes out and shows your opinion was a placebo and biased towards chord as many of us thought. Now your trying to save your reputation. Something that is supposed to upgrade the sound quality factually degrades the sound signal. I've got some mud in my garden that does the same thing, can you review that too. How can we take what you say seriously after this?
@@PassionforSound not really. In all your comparison videos you always finish by favouring the chord product. Either you are biased or your not very good at reviewing audio equipment.
Or perhaps I'm yet to find a better sounding product? As I said in the May review, I really wanted it to be better, but I liked the TT2 more. Interestingly enough, I also make money from affiliates with other brands but none whatsoever from Chord. The motivation kind of goes against your theory as I'd be far better shilling for Topping and SMSL (who's products I often praise), but instead my two favourite DACs are from Chord and Schiit, neither of which make me a cent to recommend.
Basically asking the designer of the faulty product his opinion doesn't seem like a good thing. He is part of the company trying to sell you the product. So in no way objective
Why didn't he just go straight to ASR. I have watched the video, but he shows little to nothing ! He has now measured the Dave dac, and it's not that good. Maybe they can get together and do a video ! Probably won't do that, better brush it under the carpet !
The Term, Out of Your Depth springs to mind. Rob dodges so many questions, much like your responses on ASR. Your lack of knowledge was soon exposed. Youve done nothing but agree with any of the unproven claims Rob has made. It doesnt do what it claims and its provable.
It's incredible how much bullsh*t a person can spit out to sell his product and keep people dumb... Watched the video till the end and this guy makes a lot of contradictions and generally doesn't know what he's talking about. Amir is the guy you should trust, EVERYTHING in audio is measurable, nothing is magic, keep that in mind!
No ones forcing anyone to buy the M-Scaler, why do you guys get so worked up about this? People that have got enough disposable income to drop 14 grand on a hi fi device are people that aren't going to be concerned about where there next meals coming from, or where they are going to sleep at night. You, and others that get so worked up over, what you regard as expensive 'snake oil' in hi fi, are basically, expressing a concern over wealthy people wasting money they can AFFORD to waste, it's a bizarre affliction. I'm not so sure that wealthy people in society need 'White Knights' like you, and others, to protect their financial well being, they're doing OK, how about concerning yourself with ACTUAL problems.
@@SaintKimbo I'm not disagreeing with you, you're right on the part that "wealthy people in society need 'White Knights' ". The reason I have a problem with this is because I want the truth to come out and despise people like this guy who are obviously full of shit. Many other companies will mimic the "top" companies and try to raise prices with worse performance instead of hunkering down and researching on how to actually make their products better. Even their Chord Dave dac+amp gets outperformed by a much cheaper chinese product which is unexpectable at this price. Now the Chord Scaler literally does NOTHING to your music and makes it worse. I don't know about you man but I don't want this kind of behavior from companies. This like I said trickles down to other not so successful companies and the result is having bloated prices for no reason and no innovation in the space. I'm not white knighting for wealthy people but I do care about the audio industry as a whole. This can also be applied to any other industry. And if you have people that are still buying crap like that and not standing up but instead continuing the lie then we're all f*****. That's all from me.
Now, it’s like interviewing Volkswagen about their own DieselGate ….. and casting doubts on the EPA actual measurements of the claimed mileage and emissions. Do we see the same similarities here ? And that singular act of deceit, fraud and conspiring by the Volkswagen Group collapsed the auto market for diesel cars.
Bud, do yourself a favor - all gear is based on science and therefore measurements. You cannot design and produce gear by being subjective. Understand that.
Perhaps the favour to be done should be in raising your awareness of the aspects of sound that we still don't understand and therefore can't measure. For example, we don't yet understand what measurements define soundstage size and imaging, how the brain separates the complex waveform into individual sounds (and therefore what we would even need to measure) or how sensitive we actually are to a measurement like jitter. There's also emerging scientific, peer reviewed studies now showing that the inaudible high frequency content of music somehow influences our perception of that music even though we can't consciously perceive the sound. So if you think that everything can be designed with science and measurements, you're operating with misinformation.
There is simple end to all this. MAKE a video and do REAL AB test on M-scaler with unbiased testers. Like a local university etc. End of story and you have real DATA about is it doing anything at all. But you know why no one can do it? Chord is not willing to loan the DAC/M-scaler to anyone who wants to so it. Why aren't chord doing it? Cos they know no one can do it.
The whole review has basically been reproduced on Head-Fi so there wasn't really a need for him to read it in its entirety. Also, I asked him to answer some questions that I had, not to read the review.
Once uploaded, videos on RU-vid can't be replaced without releasing it as a brand new video. Plus, I believe in not altering someone's words to suit an agenda. If a person can't look past that one statement and focus on the fact that Rob is simply answering my questions, not critiquing the ASR review directly (which I respect him for) then I doubt any changes to the video will get through to them.
@@PassionforSound The review is a miniscule amount of words anyone could easily skim it. Just read the thing. I'm sure he has or at least his lawyers have. I don't buy that this guy isn't aware of every last word Amir wrote. This is going to cost him a lot of money right or wrong. If he is right I hope he has the wherewithal to prove it in court.
This is a horrible retort. All you did was get Robb Watts online to fluff up his products even more. He even said "I didn't read the ASR review" like he was high and mighty and too good to actually read the review. How does a person respond to a review without reading the review? That was literally Robb's words, him saying he didn't actually read the ASR review.
I asked Rob to come on and respond to the questions I had about the information presented on ASR. I didn't ask him to read and critique the review and he'd seen most of the measurements as they'd been copied and pasted into the M-Scaler discussion thread on Head-Fi. I think many of the people taking issue with the statement about Rob not reading the ASR review are actually just diverting from the real issue here which is that most of Amir's measurements of the M-Scaler are irrelevant to its operation and purpose.
The Emperor's New Clothes - one only has to know how to sell it. For many, the impossibility to prove a negative (something not having an effect after all) seems to be good enough to believe in the salvation.
He had seen and discussed all of the measurements and findings as people posted them on Head-Fi for discussion. He didn't actually need to read the full ASR review and I asked him to answer my questions, not critique the actual review
The issue is the irrelevance of the measurements, Ian, and there's not hate for Amir. I am disappointed that it has produced a set of measurements that don't reflect the actual performance of the device, but he's used then to claim that the device does nothing. It's either an unprofessional or ignorant approach to the interpretation of the measurements.
Why is Chord not reaching out with a plan to speak with Amir. This is strange marketing. Involving a non engineer not even a tech. Your mindset reveals judgments right at the start… “I can’t believe it’s as bad as that…” And Rob hasn’t bothered to read or watch Amir’s work published… sounds like another MOFI Gate situation.
I reached out to Rob. Chord aren't involved at all (Rob works for Chord as a consultant, not an employee). I suspect Chord hasn't reached out to Amir because his measurements of the M-Scaler don't really warrant discussion because they aren't measuring what it does and are just an arbitrary set of measurements that illustrate nothing meaningful about an upsampler.
things are very simple. TAKE YOUR VERY BEST SCALER AND SEND TO AMIR FOR REVIEW. AS SIMPLE AS THAT. For the sake of benefit of doubt, I asked an used audio seller to sell his (skyrocket priced) audio item to me AT HIS ASKED PRICE (halo, halo?!). PLUS SHIPPING TO AMIR AT AUDIO SCIENCE REVIEW. The "seller" (a thug, what else) REFUSED. Can you imagine?! Refused because he knows very well he sells worthless snake oil to unsuspecting buyers. Therefore, take the very best Scaler that you possible can have and send to Amir for measurements. OR MEASURE IT YOURSELF. THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.
It would have been useful if the gentleman had looked at the ARS review of his product, and then point by point refute ARS’s findings. The fact that he ignored the review speaks volumes. The claim on the Chord M-Scaler website (03/06/2023) is it “…upscale standard 44.1kHz to digital audio up to 705.6kHz…” is akin to saying you can make a four egg omelet with only two eggs. You can added extra ingredients so that it has the same volume (pun intended), BUT it’s never going to be a four egg omelet. I call snake oil!
You've misunderstood how upsampling is intended to work. It's not creating data that's not there, it's based on the premise of using more advanced algorithms to predict where the intersample data points lie to help more accurately reconstruct the analog waveform. All upsampling/oversampling DACs do this internally. The aim of the M-Scaler is to do it better rather than relying on the DAC.
You got pawned by ASR, not just on the mscaler but the Dave you've also raved about. 'What you enjoy', million tap transients & all the other bullshit is now debunked. Any non double blind audition comparisons with less than 100 listeners are useless. Buyers beware, I'm a Brit Qutest owner so have nothing against Chord but I've got cheaper SMSL dacs that sound just as good & at least they decode MQA.
Regarding subjective evidence... Is there hard proof that you love your mother? Or that she loves you? No. Only you and she know and experience that reality, so it can't be measured and proven, yet you wouldn't argue that it's not real because of that.
Basically, the entire thread has been captured via comments on the M-Scaler Head-Fi thread so he essentially has read it, just at a different location. Paul F, if you're saying it's hard to argue with Amir's measurements, you really need to go back and listen to the interview again because the whole discussion was around the fact that those specific measurements are irrelevant for the M-Scaler because he's treated it like a DAC and not understood what the product is actually designed to do.
@@paulf3353 he is being interviewed about his product and asked questions relating to measurements. I love that there is no contradiction or denial of any measurements. He is not arguing about the measurements. He is explaining and discussing his design choices and why it makes things sound better and how the measurements relate to that improvement. It’s brilliant as an engagement.
I'm sorry, but when someone "raccomends" a piece of equipment that costs 5 grands he cannot hide behind " if you don't enjoy it, it's totally fine ". Also talking about subjectivity it's completely unaccettable. The objective results say that this product has a negative impact on sound. What proof do we have that, objectively, it also adds something positive? None, only poorly conducted listening tests. If Chord wants to sell me something it has to prove it's good. Evidently its customers don't care about this and are willing to spends thousands of dollars. i am not.
Strong words. How do you determine what type of music you listen to? Do you do that objectively or subjectively? Do objective measurements tell you what type of music you should like? What happens when you change out a piece of your chain based on objective measurements? When it changes the flow of your system do you chalk that up to objectivity? Every piece of gear has its own sound. Even the ones that are supposed wires with gain and are meant to impart no flavor. What do you do when an item that has lower distortion numbers or SINAD numbers still sounds good to you? Or do you steer clear because the measurements say it won’t sound good? How about when those measurements are past the point of human hearing capabilities? Will you say that those measurements lead to intangibles that you can feel but can’t hear? Isn’t that a subjective listening experience? Just curious how you can say that subjectivity is completely unacceptable in a world where nothing is at it seems. Do you only see black and white? I can understand you not wanting to spend $5k for a piece of equipment, but if that designer can’t hide behind “if you don’t enjoy it, it’s totally fine”, why can someone who makes a piece of gear that is $300 say the same thing? Someone’s $300 could be the same as someone else’s $5k. Is it a matter of railing on equipment that is expensive and the people who can afford it?
Are you listening to music or measurements? What's the objectively best recording out there? Objectively best brand of violin? Which violin strings are objectively the best? Is there an objectively best concert hall that all music should be recorded in? I guess you see my point. Nothing in the audio chain from the musician to the instrument to the venue to the playback chain can be defined 100% objectively so subjectivity is absolutely the final arbiter whether we like it or not.
@@PassionforSound first, most contributions from this device end up in the inaudible spectrum, so it's not subjective. second, there's added distortion, noise and jitter in the inaudible AND audible specturm, all objective alterations that are universally considered bad, even on your channel. third, all frequency response curves, pass-thru - 2x - 4x- 16x, still land on top of each other. so objectively nothing changed. period, no need to get philosophical.
No, it's not okay if you enjoy it. If someone is selling you magic beans, it's not okay just because you enjoy it. If someone sells you counterfeit painting, it's not okay, just because you like it.
The crux of this is we are finally able to get our hands on sophisticated test equipment that allows us to really see how these expensive devices actually work or don't work. For so long we have had to take the manufacturers word for it. The result? We are now finding a lot of 'legendary' people in the Hi-Fi field are really not that qualified or qualified at all. It's causing a lot of embarrassment for a lot of people that have have reigned unquestioned since the 70's and 80's. Time to clean house and put some of them out to pasture.
That's not at all the case. The reality of it is that some people choose to believe that irrelevant measurements tell the whole story just because they've been measured with an expensive piece of equipment. Part of my reason for reaching out to Rob Watts about this was to understand what the data wasn't telling us and there are huge gaps in the data Amir has provided. If you don't like the M-Scaler or Chord, that's completely fine - it's not a brand or product for everyone, but the claims being made about the M-Scaler at ASR are just incorrect, based on ignorance and an over-reliance on the fact that an APx555 has been used. I could use the best surgeon's tools available, but it doesn't mean you should trust me to conduct a complex operation on someone.
@@PassionforSound Okay so get Rob to test it and show us what it really does then? It's just a piece of electronic kit after all. Not some magical box. Get him to measure it and show how it really works. But I bet you won't.
I won't because I don't feel the need to. I've listened to it for myself and everything Rob has said stacks up when I listen to it. If someone can produce relevant measurements that disprove Rob's claims, that's a whole different story, but knowing that Rob's approach involves BOTH measurements (in the digital and analog domains) as well as listening tests implies that the measurements of his devices will stack up where they matter. As we discussed here, the jitter performance isn't so good from the M-Scaler for a good reason. That's an example of Rob merging real life performance and an understanding of the measurements that matter.
Rob could easily fool a layperson such as yourself and the vast majority of your audience. If he truly wished to challenge the findings he'd go directly to the source and place a point by point rebuttal on ASR's actual review. Nothing is stopping him from doing so, and with the traffic that site gets he'd have a huge platform dwarfing that of even Stereophile. By the way, Rob claims to be able to hear artifacts as low as -300 dB. Unless he has the hearing of a bat, that uses echolocation to navigate its surroundings, he's either lying or deluding himself.
Only liars, the incompetent or criminal shrink away from challenging their opposition when it comes to science and engineering. Lazy people who can't be bothered don't make for good scientists and engineers
That's laughable, Bill. Rob has designed, from the ground up, some of the best DACs on the planet both objectively and subjectively. Questioning his credentials as an engineer or scientist just shows that you haven't considered this properly or done any research into his work.
“The next measurement I questioned was… “ both of you laugh again. Very unbiased for sure. Not. You’re interviewing without your notes and Rob is trying to answer without reading the post/ watch the video. This is a messy discussion on both sides.
@38:07 is it not convenient that some aspects of Rob’s design implementations, that he claims sound better, cannot be measured? If it is more art than science than just say so.
Not really convenient. If it were easy to measure these things we'd have way more cheaper, better sounding DACs. Thankfully we have people out there going beyond the simple measurements to design products that also sound fantastic
If you can hear it, you absolutely can measure it, otherwise you couldn't hear. Moreover, instruments can measure what you can't hear. Calling out art is absurd, art is done with science and tecnique, do not mistake the perception of its beauty with its principles of making...
There are no analog measuring devices that have the sensitivity needed to measure some of what's being done in the digital domain of products like this (e.g. noise shaping)
@@PassionforSound What's being done is using equations, which is math, so absolutely measurable, to concentrate noise, which is meaureable, in frequenzy bands to which hearing, which is measurable, is less sensible. There's no need of noise shaping if you produce an instrument which put all the possible noise directly to a non audible level, and this is absolutely measurable.
The lack of noise is absolutely measurable, but the listening tests conducted during the creation of some of these products showed that mathematically quantifiable changes to the noise floor (via noise shaping) that go beyond measurable limits were still influencing the subjective enjoyment of the device. All of this is also before we discuss the timing accuracy of transients in the musical signal which cannot be measured (AFAIK) with currently available analog tools.
I'm not a follower of Amir by any means but this interview just strikes me as a designer of overpriced junk trying to justify the existence of the overpriced junk they designed. This is basically PR / marketing and the guy said he never even read the ASR review that he's trying to defend against. Just another clown show in the audio hobby. sigh :(
@@dgregory4178 I have used mscalar for almost 3 weeks when I was in the market for a DAC and TT2 was on my list. I found that HQPlayer to be far more bang for buck.
30 odd years ago you could con most people into buying overpriced hifi, but the game has been up for some time. Rob Watts/Chord had over a year before this interview to read Amirs review & its hard to believe that he hadn't. furthermore Amir at Audio Science Review openly challenged Chord to respond to his findings & so far nothing to this date - 6th April 2023.
1:15 surely the salesman of the product would have the most conflict of interest for providing unbiased opinions regarding the crticisms of his product, no? This was supposed to be about anaylisng audio measurements (if I understood the preface of this video properly, from the intro), not the m-scaler in particular. Should've got an expert not from Chord, to talk about audio measuring and what was missing/red herrings from Amir's test procedure and how it relates to the m-scaler, as opposed to 'an opportunity for Chord to defend their product' which this video turned out to be. I'm disappointed with the direction of this 'discussion'. Could've been a good one, an oppotunity to look at common practices within this industry but this video turned out to be just another youtuber trying to stir another beefy pot. I love how Rob just pops out of nowhere to discuss the m-scaler for an hour on youtube as soon as the ASR video is released, but he hasn't seen it. Lol Why is the interviewer asking the manufacturer how to best test their own product? Seems backwards in so many ways. Nobody asks nvidia how to test their GPUs if it scores poorly in a benchmark. Why is it happening here? P.s. Wouldn't it be funny if Amir was secretly a Topping empoyee.
Rob Watts isn't a sales person for Chord. He's an external contractor employed by Chord to design their DACs. Also, this was entirely focussed on discussing the measurements of the M-Scaler. Sorry if that was unclear from the intro. Finally, there's some great content from Golden Sound on his own RU-vid channel (@goldensound) and also on a recent episode of the Darko Audio Podcast that's more generally discussing the pros and cons of measurements on all types of devices. I'd recommend all of that content for a more thorough and balanced explanation.
Sorry, I missed one other thing in your comment. Amir is not a Topping employee to my knowledge, but I've seen it said that his forum/website is supported by someone from Topping/SMSL as a financial contributor. (I haven't verified this personally so please check this before running with it)
THIS WAS TOTALLY INSPIRATIONAL AND A VINDICATION OF MY LONG-HELD BELIEF AS A PHYSICIST AND AN AUDIOPHILE. For me this is one of the most significant interviews in my audiophile experience, now 53 years (and counting!) I have long held the belief that measurements are not the whole story and after over 50 years of critical detailed listening have had some experiences that bore this out. One significant event was my purchase of an amplifier to replace my Leak Delta 70. On paper it measured like the textbook on amplifier design and received rave technical reviews. After 3 weeks of listening, i couldn't bear to hear it any more and gave it to a relative. That was the last time i relied on the test results to sell me a component. Another experience is my use of supertweeters to add air and realism despite the fact that my ears should not be able to hear the frequencies they reproduce. But an A/B test is very conclusive in favour of the supertweeters. So bottom line: satisfy the psychoacoustics and the quality of the experience will improve. Enjoyment follows. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
I'm glad you liked the interview, Rob. As you say, the psychoacoustics are so important. The key thing that's often overlooked is that we are still learning about how we perceive sounds (including ultrasonics that we can't consciously hear) so any measurements HAVE to be incomplete until we learn what it is that we should be measuring.
@@PassionforSound i couldn't agree more. This is why I am skeptical of channels/websites that "trash" products based solely on measurements without the extensive listening tests that Rob has performed. What a unique and privileged position he has to be able to conduct such detailed comparisons! Most of us would give our right arm for such a chance! Until it's clear what parameters play which role, it's premature to condemn any product. The empirical fanatics also deny cables have a significant influence. Anecdote: to choose my analog interconnect I auditioned two sets of interconnects for weeks. It quickly became clear that one set was unlistenable for long periods (the musicians played the same melody but not together) and another was extremely musical and can be listened to for hours and hours on end. I chose the more musical of the two. At the end of the day it's about musical enjoyment, not measurements. All the best, Rob in Switzerland PS. In my physics degree we had an acoustics specialisation which I and friends also took. In my year were both Andrew Jones (star loudspeaker designer) and Arthur Khoubessarian ()of Pink Triangle and Funk Firm fame - inspirational turntable designer).
There really isn’t any journalism when it comes to hifi, is there? Rob is basically allowed to say whatever he wants without any challenges. “Hey, I need the noise to make the depth, no choice, don’t measure the noise, it’s no relevant”. What?? No actual responses to some very disturbing facts (that may or may not tell the full story, but are still very much there), and a host that is either unwilling or incapable of challenging the discourse. A shining example of what’s wrong in our hobby.
I'm not qualified to challenge Rob's responses, Alfy, so the best I can do is allow him to comment on the measurements and let others put the pieces together for themselves. That said, I do know that the measurements that started all this were misleading and irrelevant to a product like this and that's what started off this interview to try and share the other side so people could see both sides and make up their own mind.
How so. What extra information do you think he needed that was not provided to him in my questions and/or via the Head-Fi discussions that were extremely detailed about everything we discussed
You need to watch the video properly. Amir ran a series of irrelevant tests designed for DACs. As Rob explained clearly in this discussion, most of what the M-Scaler is doing cannot be measured with an analog instrument like Amir's setup and needs to be measured via calculations in the digital domain.
When are people going to stop confusing the phrases, "high fidelity" and "it makes my ears happy." This machine will, at best, change the sound from the original input and people will pay 5k for it because "audiophile."
This product is designed 100% with the intention to more accurately reproduce the analog waveform as it was originally recorded. People saying otherwise aren't taking the time to understand the intent of the product.
Many Audiophiles obsess over trivia. This is an expensive box that may or may not give subtle results. The truth is that room acoustics and loudspeaker choice have far more effect on audio quality. The very best speaker produces high levels of distortion which masks more subtle differences. Spemd your money on speakers that sound good to you and attend to room acoustics. Just moving your speakers or listening position can give very noticable changes to audio quality.
No doubt there's some truth to that, Geoff. The choice of speakers/headphones and main components are definitely the most important. Once that's all in place though, something like the M-Scaler can provide a nice additional lift to the sound
@@PassionforSound Also for some of us, there is a limit to what can be done with the room. I'm very happy with my speakers, and I have a subtle amount of rear wall absorption and corner bass trapping, within the realms of domestic acceptability. Once you hit that ceiling, the increments need to come from somewhere else. I will admit that the M-Scaler has given me the largest amount of mental gymnastics, as a TT2 owner I'm on the fence about whether I want / need one. I've also considered the Blu Mk2 transport so that I get both the Scaler and a transport in one box.
I don't believe the Blu is capable of anything near what the M-Scaler is doing. If course, if you pair it up with HQPlayer and Roon, that's a different story 🙂
Rob Watts reminds me of Nelson Pass, another one of my favourite engineers. While they both understand the theory, and measure copiously, both talk consistently and repeatedly about 'listening tests'. This sort of humility and curiosity, and authenticity to the music is something I respect a lot.
They slowly, slowly deviated the subject and answered what they wanted. Way is the measurements so of the original one? Because the £4000 - £5000 up-simpler has another filter that works best only with 2 DAC's, Hugh TT2 and Dave. Is so simple.... un upscale filter cost around $100 and Chord is selling it for 4 5 grands. Rob Watson is a great engineer but the upscaler is dot exactly what people think of it (the best). The ideea of the vest was born by fake reviews 👏 👍 😀 Measurements shows how purely this device resamples. We can get exactly the same with other devices such as 200 300 DAC used as upscaler. Is really so simple to see but people makes it harder to understand by talking nonsense 😒
I have the TT2 and M Scaler. 90% of my music is 44/16 flac. Yes they are expensive pieces of kit but all I can say is my listening sessions are pure pleasure. You’re there in the studio with some recordings. It can become almost spiritual at times. Regardless of measurements and debates like this which are over my head, those chord pieces are worth a couple of good vacations for the pure joy they give.
I completely agree, Keith. So glad you're enjoying them! I think if this were all snake oil as claimed there would be many more unhappy Chord customers screaming about it, but most people have either moved on due to personal preferences, sold and then rebought Chord, or just bought it and never looked back. That's pretty good evidence IMO
@@PassionforSound 100%, I think it was very good of you to have Rob Watts on to put those questions to and the way you did it was great. Not easy to question someone on their life’s work. I think the Audio Research guy is doing a good job too but it just shows that measurement v listening tension. This is what online should be about, honest debate. You’re one of the people who promote that and I thank you for what you do.
Thanks Keith. That's certainly my intent. I don't believe in shutting down any open, honest inquiry and conversation, but also believe that we need to highlight potential misinformation when it arises and let those who want to make up their own minds to have more information at hand to do so for themselves.
@@BillNepill yeah, I would agree. It's physics and I am an engineer. Still want to see the result if possible. A true engineer doesn't have predefined bias.
What I would like to see is the conversation between Amir from ASR, and Rob Watts from Chord..... I would be more interested in seeing Rob Watts response on Amirs finding on ASR web site. This would be the conversation worth seeing. Would Rob Watts dare to take on Amirs results on ASR website by going over detail by detail on Amirs findings? I doubt it! If he could explain the results, why not Rob Watts explain them to the Amir from ASR, then show the results from the interview between Amir, and Rob Watts, and then see how the Chord M-Scaler could be improved on. Anything less than that is just trying to justify the Chord M-Scaler with a lot of useless one sided gibberish. I trust Amirs unbiased findings over Rob Watts biased gibberish. Is the Chord M-Scaler over priced at US $2,950.....most definitely.
I don't know why some people seem out to get Rob Watts, he dose his own thing, and is one of the few who does, he gives much of his time, shares alot of his information in a calm and sincere way. I happened to buy a Tube Technology DAC64 and Transport back about 20 years ago. It sounded differentiate from anything else I had heard, and I fell in love with what it did in my system. I wanted to know why, it brought me to hearing about Rob as it was his design. I like his stuff, I don't like something I don't buy it, simple.
@@PassionforSoundNo, but they can be tricked into buying things by people who purport to be reviewers but are actually shills or clowns. Giving people facts about products enables them to make better choices. If something is badly designed, performs poorly or is faulty then people should be informed.
No-one claimed it was unbiased. I reached out to Rob Watts because I had doubts about the value of Amir's measurements relative to the M-Scaler and the conclusions he was drawing as a result so I asked the designer to discuss my understanding of those measurements and to clarify from his perspective. Nothing different from that was claimed
Because the information presented on ASR was incomplete and largely irrelevant to the actual performance of the device. On top of that, ASR followers were flooding every forum and RU-vid channel with negative and often abusive comments so I felt like balancing the equation was needed for people who like to consider all sides before making up their minds
How could the m-scaler change the transients for the better? The transients are allready in the recording and if the m-scaler retains the fidelity of the source material it shouldnt touch the duration, timing, frequency response or level of the transients.
I can never get get over the strong levels of feeling (almost hate sometimes) over a product that nobody is forcing anyone to purchase. If I could afford such a luxury item I would want to handle it to get a feel for its quality and LISTEN to it. If I liked what I was hearing I wouldn't care what forums said or what the endlessly measuring fanatics said, I would buy it and enjoy it.
At 5:03 rob said he did not read the ASR measurement!! What this episode is all about it and investing 15 minutes to skim through the article seems the righ thing to do
Two points to consider here: 1) I asked Rob to answer my questions, not read and critique the ASR review 2) the ASR review has been discussed at length on Head-Fi where Rob is very active. There was no need for him to read it on ASR
It's crazy to me that the so-called "objectivist" in the comments get so emotional about this. It's really incredibly ironic. I consider myself an objectivist, but always willing and open to other perspectives. I've also been alive long enough to know, not one person, be it Amir or Robb Watts are infallible. I tend to mostly respect the opinion of those that are openly willing to admit that they might not have all the answers, such as you or even Sean Olive of Harman Research.
Thank you for the very respectful and thoughtful comment! I completely agree with what you're saying about the importance of being open minded and considering all the possibilities out there.
Love it when a manufacturer who is unsatisfied with the objective reviews of their product respond by saying..."maybe there is a problem with the unit" the only problem is the measurement revealed the facts. There is a problem with the unit
No-one suggested there was an issue with the M-Scaler. Rob confirmed that all of these measurements looked accurate - they're just not relevant to the function of the device
My first experience with upsampling came from using an RPi 3+ and an Allo DigiOne (whole kit under $200.00). My source was an ODroid HC2 ($50.00 + SSD). DAC/etc was a NAD T758 AVR ($1500.00ish). Aside from the AVR, all very cheap gear. I tried the DigiOne because the only way to get music from my server to my AVR was through blusound - which really sucked to use. You would not ask about blind tests if you had something like this. I tried the upsampling one day while listening with my son, I had no expectations at all. Ya, night and day, black and white, left or right.
The measurements are something I could do without. However, the enjoyment is not. Measurements have their place but there is a segment of folks out there who make the mistake of living by it. I don’t have any Chord pieces but I’ve spent time with the Hugo, Mojo, and the Dave. The Hugo and Dave were impressive to me. In the larger scheme of things, ASR is a tiny piece of of the audio pie that can be taken or left. That’s the beauty of this hobby as it’s all subjective in the end. I really like that you invited Rob on to discuss the engineering behind it. 👍🏻
If only we could also pay for the products subjectively. It’s all subjective until they start talking about prices than it’s objective down to the last cent, consumers always get the short end of the stick.
Whelp. It only took about 3 pages at ASR to dismantle this reaction video. Let me know when RW wants to do this all truly blinded. I'll trust his ears as much as he does. Wake me up when we get there ;-)
Speaking something into existence doesn’t prove the difference exists. This is why there are so many consumer protection laws, he does nothing in this interview but talk about magical properties of an item with no empirical evidence. Show all the data and the testing methods, then, a third party can retest it and critique. If not then I can start selling a product with the claim that it makes Spotify streaming sound like a full quality master. If you measure it and prove it to be inaccurate, I will say “you measured the wrong thing, trust me it works”.
Your knowledge of the relevant mathematics is lacking. There is a direct correlation between frequency response and transient response. Electrical Engineering students given either are required to calculate the other. At that point I'm no longer watching. Your lack of qualifications is obvious.
@@PassionforSound I've watched his postings. I think you have it backwards. Most of the people in your industry are clueless. After more than 100 years of trying they cannot come remotely close to duplicating the sound of live music from a recording and have no idea why. This is only a hobby for me. I was cut out for much bigger harder more interesting things.
I get the feeling the purely objective-only mob could take four amps which measure at 100w into 8 ohms and same but more into 4 ohms, 2 ohms etc. With distortion/noise similar too. One would be a tube amp, one class A solid state, a class AB and a class D. I am sure they could argue they should all sound the same. Most of us know they certaintly will not!
I agree. Unfortunately, the fact that they've seen the measurements would likely result in them hearing them as sounding all the same too. The consideration/argument of bias seems to only work in one direction...
@@PassionforSound you could design a perfect wind-up, steel needle gramaphone, but no-one is going to think it's going to sound like a high resolution digital sound file though a state-of-the-art DAC and loudspeakers.
Lachlan I salute you and cannot thank you enough for taking the time and effort to involve yourself in that discussion, and to congratulate you on your approach in tackling the issues with such objectivity, neutrality and diplomacy (especially given some of the polarised and entrenched views some seem to have). Moreover, to get Rob Watts to engage in that discussion was not only the right approach but incredibly informative - even if it made my head hurt a bit at times and required some stopping and rewinding to get bits to sink in. I think Rob Watts handled the questions and topics extremely well, without being in the least bit defensive or harshly critical of the opinions made in the original articles. But most of all, what strikes me, yet again, is (as Rob emphasised many times) the importance of LISTENING in order to inform our assessment and opinions, as well as making measurements - some of us can only do the former. Sadly and for reasons I’ll never understand, some people only ever do the latter, and remain insistent and have entrenched, strong opinions on what numbers and measurements can tell them without ever believing there is anything to be gained by listening. But to take that approach when it comes to audio and audio equipment, when its primary purpose is to be listened to (and give us pleasure) is utter madness. Anyone who understands the basic principles of a true scientific approach (to any subject) must accept that there will always be occasions when we cannot initially understand or explain the basis for observed events - That’s the whole point of theorising and subsequent scientific experimentation, testing and critical peer review as the process by which we eventually arrive at universally accepted scientific ‘laws’ or truths; that is until science develops further and someone may discover it’s slightly or radically different to previously thought! History of science demonstrates this. Thank goodness Rob Watts believes in the importance of listening, and demonstrated how it is an essential part of both his own learning process as well as how products are developed. That enormous intellect of his only gets him so far, as many, many years of experience have shown him that there are some things you cannot measure but we can still hear, and there are also things that we can measure but either don’t make and audible difference, or can’t be heard as such but do affect our perception of sound (particularly depth). Psychoacoustics is a fascinating subject and there’s still a lot about what our brains (and ears) are capable of that we don’t yet fully understand. That’s why everyone needs to keep and open mind (and open ears 😉). Thanks again - brilliant job 👍
Absolutely spot on. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees the absolute glaring irony that Audio Science Review and many of it's members aren't scientific at all. Science and theory changes and evolves constantly as we learn more, and to be so locked down with opinions against what others are observing because it doesn't fit their narrative is ridiculous. There's so much that current science cannot explain about the world, our bodies and our brain but yet these guys think that audio is 'solved' when in reality it is very far from the truth. A big part of Science is being open minded, engaging in theory and also being prepared to do a U-turn when new data comes available that contradicts previously perceived 'facts'. We honestly know so little about our reality but these guys will have us believe there are no more unknowns.
Always a good time trying to keep up with Rob's explanations. Thanks for the content, was highly informative. I like it when the engineers who design the device are brought into the discussion. Emphasis on "discussion". Because that's what it should be.
Do you understand that if you buy a dac for 1000 dollars. I.e. Toppings D90, and the measurements are 3-4 or 8 % less than a 10,000 dollar dac people would start questioning the results . If I’m spending 1000 for a dac, and I’m getting 95% of the measurements and they sound the same, what am I getting for the extra 9000 dollars . Shouldn’t it be 9 times better at 10,000 than a 1000 dac ? The chord has more jitter after spending 9000 more ,, lol. Really ? Dave and the marketing dept didn’t think anybody would measure what you get for the extra money . Pathetic.
Do you understand that Amir's measurements don't even attempt to capture what the M-Scaler is intended to do? Do you also understand that Amir uses a very limited set of measurements that don't tell the whole story on a DAC let alone an upsampler which is a very different device? It's like taking a photo of the back of a car (or maybe a rear 3/4 view) and trying to accurately gauge the aerodynamics of it before making bold, absolute claims with very flimsy (and incorrect) foundations.
Rob Watts mentions several times about listening tests. How are these preformed? Who does them? If it’s Rob, is he shaping the filter with his middle aged ears with inevitable frequency compromised? These things would have been good to know.
I think we spoke about that in my original interview with Rob if you want to check that out. I don't think his ears are an issue though because tonally the products are great (and the WTA filters were designed quite some time ago now). Also much of the testing is being done to identify the depth of the soundstage and that won't be as influenced by age related hearing losses as something like frequency response tuning.
I had the Hugo TT2 & M-Scaler and liked it a lot. But in the end I sold both of them after a few weeks for funds to buy other Gear and Headphones. Just too expensive for my wallet at the end of the day for my needs. I recently got the Burson Conductor 3X Gran Tourer All in One and it's a direct competitor with the Hugo TT2 for half the cost. I've learned the hard way that Price does not always translate to best sound. It's all subjective. I prefer the Burson House sound over Chord's
I would argue that above a certain quality&price point the discussion of better than the other is the wrong question. Instead it's just a matter of taste
Johan, I definitely think there is a point where the gains to be had are minimal and the extra details, etc. aren't always necessary or preferable from an enjoyment perspective. The idea that there's no difference (based on the measurements) doesn't stack up when you actually listen to them, but the idea that it's all subjective preference absolutely does 🙂
The Amir guy didn’t even measure what the Mscaler improves, namely transients. This is the same thing that Hi-Res files improve upon, and Amir doesn’t like high res either because he doesn’t know how and/or can’t measure it.
It’s very easy to measure audio transients, anyone with even a cheap oscilloscope can do it. I think you are just mad you got banned from ASR, plus you radiate your lack of technical knowledge for even saying the Amir doesn’t know and /or can’t measure it. It’s so ignorant you will only understand how ignorant that statement is once you’re educated in the matter
@@BwanaJesuasifiwe And yet he didn’t measure them. One will not be able to tell what MScaler does or doesn’t do with a just a 1 khz test tone through it as he did therefore his test is completely whack.
@@phototristan Why should he chase after a measurement which is pointless to measure, every DAC on the market can produce beyond the highest audible frequency wave transiently perfect, 20, 40, 200KHz etc is child’s play, if you compare it to the frequencies even your wireless router at home have to keep up with. A cheap internet router has better transients than a chord M-scaler if that’s something you care about. But it’s not needed in audio application to produce GHz frequencies. And it’s even more pointless to care about it after the initial recording. Audiofoolery! And I know you are not a technician but just think of it logically for a minute, the best speaker you can find in the world is part of the chain, and it has miserable transient response than even a working 5 dollar DAC will have. So why care about it anyway when it will be bottlenecked? There is so much to this absurdity it’s like absurdity on top of absurdity on top of absurdity ever so deeper you think about it. And we haven’t even reached the miserable transient response of a human eardrum which is also part of the chain.
I was never impressed with the chord dacs. Especially the price of them and the way they look. I don't like there case work and the way they look and thier connectivity no XLR out puts. Chinese dacs are good value for the money.why do you need an m scaler.
Personal preferences will always play a part with the subjective designs of products and that's fair. As to why you need an M-Scaler, the first answer is that no-one needs one (in the same way that no-one needs anything more than a phone and a pair of Apple ear buds), but my M-Scaler review and original interview with Rob Watts about the M-Scaler might answer the question of why some people want to have an M-Scaler
I agree. Buy a Matrix Element X and it sounds much better than Chord. Even 160$ dacs sound better. Chord is just paying reviewers $$$ to tell anything. Amir and also Gene of Audioholics shows me which reviewers are fake (most) and which ones are not. When you see a reviewer with 30 headphones on the wall behind him he's not asked to sending them back so he's getting paid by them and he's biased. Also if everything is wonderfull they are lying.
I'm only going to comment on two things here just to highlight the lack of understanding: 1) the TT2 and DAVE both have XLR outputs 2) I have plenty of negative reviews on the channel if you choose to watch some instead of making uninformed statements based on assumption
@@PassionforSound I happen to have read Shannon Sync Function theory and find his work very interesting, therefore, his approach to long interpolation filters to properly approach the decay of Sync Function is fantastic. Many don't agree and won't agree, however, listening to his DACs is a pleasure. I recently bought the M Scaler and absolutely love it with the Qutest.
So glad you're enjoying the M-Scaler and Qutest and that you've taken the time to read up on the theory. It makes a lot of sense once you do the reading and helps to appreciate Rob's approach, doesn't it?
@@PassionforSound It sure does, I also saw that you liked the TT-2 better than the Holo Audio May, which many are hailing as the best thing since sliced bread.
I did prefer the TT2 by a small margin, but mostly due to the value provided by the DAC/HP amp combo it offers. The May is a brilliant DAC for those who already have their amps/preamps sorted. I still slightly prefer the sound from TT2, but it's a very small margin
I was very interested to hear what Rob was saying about comparing a recording to reality. I'am always amazed that reviewers often listen to electronic or studio recorded music to review equipment. With electronic music you have no reference to what it should sound like. With studio recordings you are just listening to the reality the engineer has created, a lot of sound altering equipment and an artificial environment/soundstage. To me it's critical to listen to acoustical instruments recorded live and instruments you have heard live and are familiar with. Even better, make high quality recordings of instruments and vocals in the listening room with the microphones at the listening position. Then you have a good reference to how it should sound. You can then hear and describe the differences the equipment under review makes and how close it is to reality.
I agree, Nick. In an ideal world, having a reference recording would be amazing. I think it's worth remembering that when using live recordings, things like mic placement and mic choice can all also influence the sound so live recordings aren't necessarily better than studio recordings because every recording will be influenced by the setup, but I definitely take your point. Electronic music can be good for testing things like frequency response and imaging accuracy (how focussed the sound can be, not accuracy of placement) so all styles of music and recording have their uses, but they do need to be understood.
@@PassionforSound I would agree that electronic music can be good for checking things like bass response and dynamics, not sure about imaging accuracy though, as the environment has to be emulated. Although this can, I guess, be computed quite accurately these days. I just get a bit frustrated with a lot of reviews because I want to know, and it’s often missing, how transparent the equipment is, how close is gets to reproducing the original instruments, vocals and environment. Keep up the good work and thanks for showing this interview with Rob.
@@PassionforSound Symphonica by George Michael, orchestra & one of the best British voices ever. I have the Bluray hi-res 2 channel mixes in 24/96 PCM, DTS-HD (lossless) & Dolby TrueHD (lossless)
Thank you for getting your hands dirty on this!! It's important there is a balanced approach to big, possibly damaging claims. However... the cost to performance ratio remains a question in my mind.
That's always going to be a personal equation and something that I think can only be answered by trying it for yourself. I personally am yet to find a setup that I prefer over the M-Scaler and TT2 so it's definitely good value to me, but we're all different. 🙂
The DAVE is brilliant and technically superior, but I find myself preferring the character of the sound from the TT2 with the M-Scaler over the DAVE and M-Scaler. I'll explain more in the DAVE review because it's not a clear better vs worse IMO
Agreed, I can't understand why these people get all butt hurt about this issue, they are basically, acting like 'White Knights' for people with too much money available to them. I mean, if you've got 14 grand to drop on a hi fi device that, allegedly, improves your $13000 dac, you don't really have that many issues, and you really don't need people telling you to buy a $500 dac, because, "it's just as good".
I have the Mojo, the Mojo 2 and the Qutest. They all do the same thing but to different degrees. They all pack an FPGA chip and upsample performing so many taps. None of them radically transform the sound, though the Mojo 2 has an EQ I absolutely love. You can't create higher resolution. You can, however, improve the transients. The best I can compare this to is the black levels on a flatscreen. The darker the blacks, the more colors pop and the more textured and dimensional the image appears. Better black levels won't give you higher resolution but it will enhance how the picture is displayed. I noticed this on the Mojo, more so on the Mojo 2, and definitely on the Qutest. I didn't hear more bass or an obvious amount of detail in the highs, but I'd hear these little nuances in the music, which would show up when I least expected. We talk about speed and attack. When it's sharper and better delineated, you notice things that were there all along but they stand out better. Some examples. I've had tracks I've heard for years, always thinking a certain note was continuous, unaware that it was actually segmented. I've had moments when it occurred to me, for the first time on a song I thought I knew, that the texture of a note or instrument was more complex than I'd thought. I'd hear pick work or a flash of reverb that I'd never given any thought about. About a second into Led Zeppelin's "Going to California," someone inhales off-mic. I don't know why I didn't hear it before. There's a moment, on Billy's "Still Rock and Roll to Me," when the effect of some filter on the vocals called attention to itself in ways I'd previously missed. They're just little things, sculpted out of the mix and heard differently - in my case, on headphones.
This product is overpriced. The screen also has a bad viewing angle! for the price it costs, it should have been a lot better! but that is the case with many high end products unfortunately. you are being robbed legally
@@PassionforSound Sorry. Did a google search on (Chord m-scaler) and the ones that came up were something similar to that (audio science review) tested. Was on the channel and now see that he has tested 2 different ones from the same factory.
Subjectivity, sure. We are terribly poor at being objective where even all of our senses are Not that accurate and definitely make us believe ourselves more than the world at our feet. Take the verb to be, for example. Most instances of how we use it are at least questionable. Anyway, we make machines to measure, see, hear, gauge etc, beyond our own subjectivity and biases, but it does take a long time for us to recognise what else we can't sense, and create better and more adequate machines to venture into the hitherto unknown. Of course, if everything were so subjectively impalpable, there would be no conversation to be had. As others have said, measurements are only part of the story. Always listen.
For the same reason people pay attention to conspiracy theories: A lack of ability to think critically and desire to have someone tell them what to think.
@@Currawong Conspiracy theories are not based on science; Amir’s reviews are totally based on science. People who read his reviews are seeking unbiased recommendations supported by bench testing, not unsubstantiated nonsense from self-designated golden-eared audiophiles who are not technically qualified to fully understand the products they are reviewing. And what about Lachlan’s early request to keep things civil and courteous? In addition to being ignorant, your comment is hardly in keeping with his admonition.
This product: a way to make insane profits from a device that does nothing. Its target audience: people who will convince themselves their music "sounds $6000 better" after buying this device. Its inner workings: the bare minimum to make it functional and show off fancy lights that make it appear it's doing something.
The post above: a representation of someone who's not taken the time to understand the product and instead bought into a set of misleading measurements of the wrong things.
it upsamples sound to a higher sample rate and it does exactly what it says it does. whether or not that matters to you is up to you. i personally dont hear the difference between 44.1khz and 192khz so its not for me but i dont dictate how other people spend their money.
@@joegalaxy9037 agreed, all these subjectivists could easily prove themselves by doing live blind listening tests, but they don't do level matched blind listening tests. if you can't do that, what's the point of an interview?
he could choose to output MSQ, to avoid having to go back to 24 bits ( i guess he uses floating point, or 64 bit ints), but this problem also shows that this is just the wrong architecture, the oversampling should be done IN the DAC, and the DAC should use floating point instead of ints. oh and, IF you really want to oversample outside the DAC, just do it on a computer offline !, COST ? NOTHING !, i'm a programmer, i know what my next project is. another flaw seems to be that the original samples are lost, BUT the output frequency is a multiple of the original, that just doesn't make sense, it would be better to keep all original samples, and calculate 1,2,3 or 4 new 24 bit samples to insert between them, the only thing the mscaler is really doing is generating a more accurate curve from existing data, that isn't even an audio thing, the same is done in graphics, antialiasing, increasing image resolution, or even statistics, the idea is that you generate a function that conforms to the data. actually changing the original data seems like a bad idea, unless you want to compensate for flaws in the DAC, ok, getting to the end of the interview, and i hear talk about Fast Fourier transformations, those are not needed at all for oversampling, only for filtering, altering the original signal. and they will always add noise to the signal.
Having listened to this, and listened to Amirs, it's clear Amir was correct and this channel is dithering. I loved Chords early amps, liked the 1st digital products, but its simply becoming high margins and proffit on loosely engineered equipment not meeting the bar quite often in audio. There is no use in this, until Robb Watts actually watches the ASR video and comments directly or discusses this with Amir we have flapping bingo wings and hot sauce.
