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Its the similarities and not the differences that leads to conflicts because both are vying for the same thing...this is what ironically seems to be at play when making this distinction between Christianity and Pegan religions...they are both similar and both vying for the same spot - being the religion of the whole humanity, that there's a need to vilify other by pointing out & exaggerating small differences that exist between the 2, when its evidently clear that broadly they are 1 and the same
I am currently listening to this video. I have yet to listen to the others. I have probably been Girardian for about 10-15 years. I am an African American Catholic Christian with a background in the performing arts. I have studied philosophy and theology at the graduate level. I've been working in ministry for twenty years. Girard helped me make sense of many things: the importance of the mythic impulse (we need it); the fundamental psychic reality that forms human community; the power of mimetic desire; the need for a victim, and how Christ both fulfills AND upends that. The commenters takes subtle shots at Catholicism; I can handle it, but they miss some really important nuances. In fact, I think what he misses are the nuanced ways Catholic ritual and sacramental theology (at their best) gives Christians a sustained way to re-member Jesus' revelation of the scapegoating mechanism. And I would say that the sacramental imagination, culminating in the Eucharist, gives a way out of the violent cycle. Many of my fellow Catholics spend way too much time focused on the "object" of the Eucharist (our evangelical brothers and sisters always find that strange and heretical) and not enough time recognizing that Eucharist is an "event." A fleeting moment, tied to the central life and death of Christ, that reveals the kingdom/reign of God, the beatific vision, the beloved community. For a fleeting moment, we can see what God has done, is doing, will do. We don't re-sacrifice Christ, we participate in the one event of the Cross.
I hit the reply button too quickly!! I think the commentator does a good job, though I am a little turned off by the style. It reminds me a bit too much of the Catholic version of "traddiness" (traditionalist). The fancy trappings, the seriousness and all the leather chairs.... I expect cigars to show up! It feels fairly triumphant. I don't know the commentators and have not yet watched any of their other videos ...... (oooo orgies in the Vatican! way to go, guys... an untrue, cheap shot) .... but I get a libertarian feel from it ... and I lean clearly into the liberationist direction. That being said, we can find common ground. We have to; especially as practicing Christians. And yes, the Eucharist is at the center of it all... even from a Girardian Catholic perspective. (Remember that in the end, Girard, when he returned to Christianity, he did so via the Catholic tradition.) I propose that the Eucharist does not replace loving the neighbor, but as source and summit of Christian life, it is the event and place in which we find ourselves together hearing and responding to God's love and call. It is a font, a school, a crucible, a sanctuary, a maker of the Church and the little Christs... and we go out from it still imperfect, (clearly). But Jesus said remain in love, stay together, and feed the sheep.
Haha also, all the great Christian monastics would tell novices "If you came here to escape the world, you will be quickly disabused of that folly. The so-called world is here because you and I are here. Christianity is not likely easier in the monastery. If you do this "right" you will be wrestling even more than before."
Almost, but not quite. "Lord, have mercy; Christ, have mercy; Lord, have mercy." Think about it for a while in light of everything else you have so brilliantly described.
As I acknowledge the logic of Girard's theory and recognition of the scapegoat phenomenon in human history and its exposure in the Gospels, I understand something in a new way: love and forgiveness is a new path to follow, a path established by Christ's life. The doing of love cannot be separated from the modeling of the "how to" love in Christ's life: He wept, He prayed to His heavenly Father, He refused rivalry, and denounced violence, and he forgave from the cross. Love involves a relationship between human doing and transcendent intuition. Neither Christ nor Girard waits for unanimity. Christ's "how to love" is set in motion. Girard follows Christ in this "how to" love and his writing style while oblique (see M Kirwan's work) is not difficult or confounding. Reading his work obliquely, rather than cutting to the chase, so to speak, has itself been a way of walking that path however falteringly, the way of conversion. Lastly, a word about Christ's sword: discernment.
This whole series was phenomenal, but this was by far my favorite lecture of the series. The views will come in time. What a time to be alive. Apocalypse may be at hand, but there’s strange corner of the internet that is coming together in a beautiful way. JBP, Rogan, the Weinstein Brothers, Lex, Schmachtenberger, Chris Williams, Breedlove, Vervaeke, Huberman, Peter Attia, Curt Jaimungal, and so many others are getting at the deeper aspects of humanity through various disciplines. It’s just wild and I hope we’re in some sort of cultural rebirth.
wow! am enjoying most of this. Away from the actual content, which speaks for itself, David's attention and listening skills are just over the bar. I don't whether I am the only one grasped. I am literally waiting for the camera to turn to him😊😊😊
Johnathan and David, this is SO good. It's remarkable how 'final draft' your words are off the cuff. Almost like you're reading off teleprompters (that's a compliment). Really appreciate all the work you guys and the production team put into this.
Love these lectures men, thank you both for your efforts. One point I feel you should cover is process by which we learn to love our neighbors. When Jesus was asked which commands were the highest Jesus says to FIRST love the lord with all you mind heart and soul and then live your neighbor. The reason for this is simple. People do not know how to love eachother they have to learn perfect love from the Father. This creates a dependency on God by which we grow to realize to to properly, as Thomas Aquinas says “ Desire the good of the other” which is to love. Humanism in the church will only make more anti christ pagan church’s.
@johnathan-bi this series and Rene Girards books are excellent explanations of the fruit that infected man's mind from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The principles that make death possible.
Fantastic. This one ebbs with the resonance of a beautiful music, especially towards the end when it beats hard on Christ as the antidote to our flawed human and cultural systems. And the elixir is not to a promise of peace but to unsettle us positively. Wow!
There's so much depth to provide starting from Adam and Eve leading up to the Manifestation of Jesus, it's at this point, Unmistakable. Really appreciate a new/different perspective!
Been enjoying this series as a reformed Christian so far, but this episode brought me to a halt. This part of Girard's thinking is by all Christian measures(the ecumenical councils) heretical, and I wonder why Girard is celebrated as a Christian/ Catholic philosopher. Perhaps a better way to look at Girard is this. Girard is reading the Bible from an anthropological and sociological perspective, and his insights are clarifying and helpful only insofar as they are related to the fallen human condition. I think he paints accurately the hell we are getting ourselves into when left to our own means, and Girard's pessimism is radically honest in this sense. Nonetheless, Christ's atonement is not only emblematic (setting the right paradigm, traditionally known as the recapitulation theory of atonement) but also vicarious/ substitutional.
It’s probably just indicative of the dearth of Christian philosophers in academia today. Therefore, one who is extolling the virtues of Christianity, even from an anthropological perspective, is still celebrated just simply for engaging with the canon and taking it seriously. So even though very unorthodox, he stands out as one of the highest profile academics from recent times that has incorporated Christianity positively in his work.
This is really fascinating. I’m under the impression that the more accurate you are to Scripture, ironically the fewer views you may receive. The world we live in now isn’t a big fan of God (or, rather, what He is truly thinking, as opposed to blind, passionate fervor to please Him.) Might I recommend the Concordant Literal Version if the Bible? A.E. Knoch and a group of translators used the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words and put them in their proper place. You may find even more accuracy to the claims you’ve already pointed out. Great lecture!
What non-Christian Girardians are missing is that in Christ, in the particular way he has instituted (Eucharist, the Church), his divine radical love of neighbor is actually possible through us. Without the supernatural, the best a non-Christian Girardian can do is marvel at it from afar.
Its the similarities and not the differences that leads to conflicts because both are vying for the same thing...this is what ironically seems to be at play when making this distinction between Christianity and Pegan religions...they are both similar and both vying for the same spot - being the religion of the whole humanity, that there's a need to vilify other by pointing out & exaggerating small differences that exist between the 2, when its evidently clear that broadly they are 1 and the same
I'm greatly appreciating these videos; thank you for posting them. However, please correct your pronunciation of "thou." It rhymes with "how" and "now", not "though" or "know."
Johnathan how long until you have a discussion with JBP? I've listened to most of his stuff and judging by how new all of this is to me is I doubt he has come across much of Girard's work. A conversation between you two would be straight 🔥🔥🔥
All I could think of while listening to all of these is that JBP is extremely influenced by Girard. And there's also a recommended video on my right of him talking about Girard lol (that I haven't yet watched). JBP mentions original sin and envy and Cain and Abel etc etc and talks about it all very similarly.
JBP has also talked about believing in God as an ideal not an actual thing, and hell being something right here on earth. He has a whole lecture series interpreting the Biblical stories in anthropological terms.
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You mention that Christ rejected anger altogether, but didn't he got angry himself with the marketplace at the temple?
This is a good question. I will suggest a preliminary distinction that may help: in Girard’s reading, Christ asks us to refrain from violence which is related to but distinct from anger. (Although, chasing the money lenders out does seem to be borderline violent)
There is an esoteric contextual reading of that with Christ relating the body as the temple, after the clearing takes place where he hints on the crucifixion. verse 21, John 2:13-21. The body of Christ represents also the communion, union and coming together of polarities from his Sacrifice. Perhaps a Giradian sense would be not to sell out on desires for this union, which is implied to be quite serious. The particular mention of doves which is associated to the spirit, is also mentioned in particular in Matthew without sheep (members of flock) and oxen (represents labour). Selling out the spirit, or to use the spirit as a scapegoat would be pretty damning, since it represents the unity of spirit, where the whip describes what’s coming with our conflict and disunity - the anger is from our anger from scapegoating, which Christ mirrors, after-which describes the union, a preferable alternative.
This is actually a really insightful dialogue, I have never thought in this way. BTW, what is Jonathan holding in his hand all the while he is speaking?😅
Your conception of Satan as all worldly power reminds me of a line from the Zhuangzi that states it similarly: “I’ll stand here and sing it straight from the heart: those who are good at ruling All-under-heaven are not right.”
Impressive intellectual lecture.. great job ironically, Christ the prince of peace came with sword instead of a pledge of peace.. and the fact that humans can not really live up to the Christian ideals but only hope on grace which no one knows exactly how it works defeats the whole purpose.. and reaffirms that humanity is kinda doomed
"For Girard, this symbolized that the link between mob violence and life, between violent expulsion and worldly peace, had been fundamentally broken." any readings on the 3 days between death & resurrection that can help explain what Girard means here? How did it show those bonds fundamentally broken? Thank you :)
I think it would be a mistake to try and create a "Girardian" denomination. He himself was a Catholic. It would be better for all of us to simply try to learn from him, critique him, and absorb into our own traditions (confessions) what is useful. and leave it at that.
First, thank you for these videos. As I refresh myself with Girard's theories, I've enjoyed your analysis and I concur with many of your commentors - Girard's development on Jungian theory does seem to be the philosophical evolutionary branch from which Peterson and Pageau seem to have sprung. Secondly, if I may, I humbly submit some constructive critique. I found your video element rather distracting from your lecture. Watching you both intensely looking at each other so constantly created a separation with the audience (i.e., myself). I found myself feeling the third wheel in a great conversation. This is unfortunate, as much potential lay in another format of presentation. Perhaps if there were a classical lecture model (e.g., a figure facing and delivering content to camera) I might feel like a student observing a lecture. Perhaps if the silent partner were to offer more input or even present expositional questions I might feel invited into the narrative of this oratory essay. That being said, thank you for this excellent series of lectures.
Humans created god... it is mistaken belief that God created humans. "Jesus came not to send peace, but a sword" -another 180 twist. Girard understands that the scapegoat mechanism has been revealed, a peaceful kingdom on earth with love, truth and non-violence is possible-perhaps unlikely. But a new religion, and a new Christ-like figure can emerge from the apocalyptic ashes.
