People explore Pagan paths for many reasons ranging from the trivial to the profound. Those of us who stay do so because it speaks to our hearts and souls in ways that Christianity never did. When I discerned that path, which took a number of years, it felt like coming home. It is what and who I have always been. My own experiences of the gods have confirmed that I am where I belong. When you have a direct personal encounter with Cernunnos or Odin or a goddess, you are forever changed. I thank Them every chance I get for being able to live in an age when we can openly reconnect with our gods and our true heritage. It has inspired me to become a better person. The virtues it helps drive me to: Prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance, courage, truth, honor, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, industriousness, self-reliance, perseverance etc.: All of these were held by Pagan people long before Christianity ever existed. The fact that they have been adopted by or expanded upon by Christians in subsequent centuries does not make them solely Christian values. Can people use Pagan identity and it's lack of "thou shall not" commandments as an excuse for amoral or libertine behavior? Certainly. But it can also lead us to much deeper personal accountability. While we may share many similar ideas of virtue for different reasons, the Pagan and Christian religions are radically different and irreconcilable. We do not share the same sexual ethics certainly, but more fundamentally, we do not seek salvation nor see the need for it. We seek things like wisdom and connection and reciprocity and sustainability.
I want to church like any kid but I dont feel the pull to it. when I was to a bathetic by a river I didn't because it felt wrong to me. So, I looked to nature I found it. Why the gods I worship are fine for me.
Who created your ancestors? Who authored the entirety of our existence? Your ancestors certainly deserve a level of respect and veneration, but not worship.
@@JustinJJonesOfficial I would classify myself as Ancestral Pagan like my whole spirituality is centered around worshipping my ancestors. I even pray to them and those prayers are 2/2 for being answered I would say. Short story versions: First prayer my friends high school graduation, a gorgeous lady is singing, I pray to my ancestors to marry her, this is circa 2005, 2010 I met the lady and end up marrying her, then at some point she shows me her old yearbook with her being in choir and she says she sang at my friend's graduation. Then I realize my ancestors can accomplish tasks for me. Second example I'm in a warzone and I pray to my ancestors for two healthy babies to arrive and they do. So my ancestors are 2/2.
@@shakostarsun In Catholicism we have a mechanism for what could be happening. Your ancestors are in Heaven and when they hear your prayers they intercede on your behalf with Christ and ask for your prayer's fulfillment. Ultimately Christianity elevates the beauty you see in paganism to a new level because it recognizes what lays beyond your ancestors and has given us all life, God Himself. Bless you and your family.
@@JustinJJonesOfficialyou dont know that though, that everything is created by a god. I would see it as more rational to honor and try to connect to your ancestors that you know existed, rather than a being that there is not even any proof of that he actually exists. I respect your beliefs but i personally dont think it makes much sense.
Everything is created by a god, and in ancestor worshiping religions like the old roman religion, some liniages came directly from a god. @@romelos222
i am grateful you explained paganism correctly. but you are incorrect about a "pagan moral code" there is no one pagan moral code it differs from each polytheistic religion. i raised roman catholic but left Christianity for hellenismos and ive never felt a greater sense of peace or wholeness in my life. i follow the old ways of the polytheistic hellenes. although i have hellenic ancestors, i grew up in America, thus exposed to American culture. I always had an unexplained affinity for hellenic culture, history, and spirituality, but it wasn't until my 20s that I fully adopted this hellenic way of being. Hellenic polytheism is'nt just a belief system or religion. It's the entire natural indigenous greek way of being from the beginning of greek people until now. it encompasses various traditions and forms of worship but has always kept intact its connection to the gods. You must strive to learn not only the history of your ancestors or the hellenes, but the language as well, if you want to truly assimilate to this worldview and way of life. i speak only for myself in the way that i religiously conduct myself towards the gods. however, my practices are based on that of the LABRYS organization. The values that govern this way of being are Eusevia/piety, Dikaiosyne/justice, Arete/virtue, eleutheria/freedom, and Autonomia/self-determination/sufficiency. a brief explanation of the fundamentals of the religious aspects of hellenic polytheism are, one, establishing a sacred space in your home. This is where you would connect with the gods, through prayer, devotion and offerings. and two, have an altar or dedicated space for the dedicated idols/images representing the gods. There are a plethora of details involved but the most important of things is being clean or atleast having your hands washed before attempting to approach the blessed gods. You must always adress or open and close your prayers with Hestia the goddess of the hearth and eternal flame that allows the connection between gods and mortals. i am forever grateful to have found this path, it has made me a better man than i ever was as a Christian
I am curious in what ways you feel Hellenic paganism has made you a better man than being a Christian? I understand your point about pagan moral codes and may have generalized a bit, but on the whole pagan generality is not strictly codified. Even predominant moral themes are not absolute in Hellenic paganism. I’ve often found that former Christians who embrace paganism and feel that it has made them better people usually are applying a latent sense of Christian morality in the pagan system that doesn’t properly exist in the pagan system and is just revitalized by a new energy and spiritual excitement.
@JustinJJonesOfficial as a Christian, i always had this sense of a safety net. where i viewed my sins as a product of being human and highly influenced by evil forces outside of my control. but asking for forgiveness to god always justified it. it wouldn't allow me to take full responsibility for my actions, and i often found myself repeating the same sins. i wanted to do better, so i got into hellenic philosophy and stoicism, which evidently led me to the gods. since then, I've had significant spiritual experiences with the gods. our moral code is very similar to Christianity. If you ever have a chance to look up the 147 delphic maxims, you'll see the vast similarities. the gods have shown me to take responsibility for my transgressions/sins rather than blame external forces. this has forced me to take accountability and pursue virtue in all aspects of my life, i.e. better father, husband, soldier, etc. i used to be an alcoholic, smoker, and addicted to video games and porn. All this has completely gone away since i turned to the gods. the more transgressions or sins we commit, the farther away we grow from the gods. the more good and kindness we do, the closer we grow to the gods. we perceive the gods as eternal, Celestial beings of light. the highest forms of goodness. incapable of corruption and rebuking evil in all forms. finding this path for me was like finding the last piece of the puzzle. it was hard to unlearn alot of the abrahamic concepts we were brought up on. but this feels more natural than Christianity, when i go outside to go to work im happy to feel the wind in my face. i can sit happily in traffic. i notice the little things alot more, i feel the world/nature alot more. i have a better awareness i guess. its difficult to explain.
@@Son_of_zeus First off, let me just say congratulations on your huge personal improvements in your life. Regardless of what has been the impetus for it, I believe that God is working through you to help you find this light and better way. I do think that in your example you are basically justifying the "truth" of hellenic paganism by its overlap with Christian morality. But the problem still remains that the Delphic maxims are not moral rules that must be followed. Many Greek pagans did their own thing and there was no codified morality which conflicted with it. The same hellenic paganism that created the honorable Delphic maxims also created maenads who ripped human beings apart with their bare hands and had orgies. Ancient Greek culture also produced pederasty at a widescale and there was not unified outcry from the pagan "religion" (it's a bit anachronistic to call it religion). One question for you: do you believe Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the third day?
@JustinJJonesOfficial thank you. you are right. it's because the gods gave us the ability to choose the path of wickedness or the path of virtue. the maxims are not law like the christian god commandments but rather guidance from the gods for us to follow. We have free autonomy to choose. thats why the myths and stories serve as allegories for us to learn from. where the wicked will use to justify their wickedness or the good to extract virtue. there isnt one specific culture that was perfect or good, christianity as a whole (not excluding any specific denomination) has had its fair share of brutality and inhumane acts across history, and there is constant news reports of pedophilia occuring in various christian institutes. hellenismos is not just a religion, but it is in the sense of its spiritual belief system. it entails adopting a fully polytheistic world view and platonic/orphic philosophy. our judgment isn't based on faith alone but rather on works, the gods dont care whether you believe in them or not but rather how you live your life amongst the living. your actions and deeds, and the sincerity in your heart will determine your place in the afterlife. so where a murdering rapist pedophile who lived wicked his whole life and turns to christ before dying is welcomed into the christian heaven, he will never be welcomed in the eyes of the gods, sorry and forgiveness isnt enough and he would be severely punished in our world view. and as a pious pagan or decent atheist will still go to hell for not following christ, the gods would allow them to be at peace in the afterlife based on their virtues. very different judgment system. as for christ, i have a polytheistic view of him, to answer your question yes. hopefully its not offensive to you, but i see him as a demigod of peace and wisdom. i am not convinced that jesus is the god of the OT, because of the drastic differences. i think alot of important things were lost or left out of the bible intentionally. but jesus being a god, i 100% believe it to be true. just not in the same perception as a Christian views a god.
@@Son_of_zeus It feels like your theology is messy and just replacing "God" with "gods". I have degree in classical Latin and Greek and studied Greek polytheistic religion extensively. It was not in the Greek mindset that the gods collectively gave humans the ability to do right or wrong. Also the idea of the gods being moral exemplars is anachronistic and can be seen in writers such as Plato who complained about the gods being morally corrupt examples and the danger of many of the myths if they were to be viewed as moral examples. You feel that the Greek myths are allegories to learn from? If the gods are morally perfect, then why do they war against each other? Zeus frequently would come down and rape human beings for no other reason than lust. That's hardly an example to follow. The examples you cite about individual Christians sinning is different from the religion itself condoning it or, at the very least, not condemning it. Orthodox Christianity & Roman Catholicism don't believe in faith alone either, but faith lived out in works. Your example about the repentant rapist is only true in the Christian model if he truly repents, which is unlikely if he has spent a lifetime in sin. His repentance would likely be out of fear of hell rather than love for God. Also, Christianity does not teach that pious pagans go to Hell. It is abundantly clear in Church teaching on this matter that God judges those who do not know Christ by a different standard and that judgment is for God alone. We don't say pagans go to Hell automatically. To your last point about Jesus being a "god" instead of God is interesting, and something I've encountered many times previously discussing with modern pagans. It was actually my view before I converted to Christianity. For me, I think the real thing you have to consider is this: If Jesus was real (which it seems you believe) and what his disciples claimed happened to him was true (which I suspect you believe, that he resurrected) then he must be God. Jesus led a sinless life and performed manifold miracles not seen in quantity or quality before or after Him. He made the specific claim that he was Yahweh. I believe you have wonderfully good intentions but you, like myself previously, have been misled by a distorted theology that conflates Christian moral goodness with pagan idolatry. I'd lastly like to commend you for engaging in a long form conversation with me and being willing to engage in this dialogue, it speaks highly of your character. God Bless you!
This is simply untrue. Many pagans do claim that since their conversion to paganism that they feel a more intense spiritual experience. Few would go so far as to say they hear audible replies as in discernible words coming from another voice. Even if it were the case that EVERY pagan heard these audible replies, who is to say these replies are good? Second, there are millions of Christians, Jews, and Muslims that have intense religious experiences and even had miraculous things occur in full view of others. See the lives of the saints for more on that. I think it's important to engage in interfaith discussion, but let's make sure to do it in good faith and not make sweeping generalizations that are wrong. That can cut both ways, and it is not productive.
Wow, someone who got the definition of Pagan correct. That's rare...... Buddhism and Hindu are pagan. Sorry. Even Christianity has animism. Reconstructionism is anachronistic. You missed Meso Paganism, Paleopaganism.... Hedonism has been around forever. Nothing new.
I didnt convert to paganism, but i converted to judaism. As a kid tried to talk to jesus, i heard nothing. Then i spoke to the one true God, and Hashem heard my prayers.
I think that many people are either trained to be against traditional religion or simply had poor experiences with it growing up. Yet, they still feel that need for some spiritual and communal purpose in their lives and why not have it be with a creed that generally does not expect as much righteousness and is "cool"? This fits essentially every pagan I know(not that I know a crazy amount). They often are essentially roleplaying piety. I think that certain things you mentioned are also true such as being separated from nature and perhaps also ancestral ties. I think these things are very important to realize but are not inherently excluded from Christianity even if most practicing Christians don't care because they too are caught in our secular world. I am a practicing Christian and find these things very important, perhaps more important than other Christians but my religion does not barricade me from doing so. I also know that although I had pagan ancestors, for hundreds of years they have been Christian and I imagine they are proud to be able to have their progeny receive what they knew to be the true faith. Another thing is that Satan simply has great hold on the hearts of the children of men, both Pagan and Christians. I do appreciate in some rudimentary way when someone desires to be religious, even if pagan, as opposed to discarding faith altogether. And there is always a the hope that their true desire will lead them down the paths that their ancestors have already taken, to Christ.
You are using the word pagan rather loosely, so it is unclear what group of pagans you are arguing are morally depraved. On behalf of the Germanic heathen community-or more properly named the Sedish Community-I would like to educate you on the standards of our faith so that you avoid the sin of slandering us. The following are the laws we abide by from our historical text called The Poetic Edda (equivalent to your Bible). It is comparative to your Ten Commandments, and it is called The Rúnlög: “The sacred lore of the rúnar, which Heimdallr taught as much to the humans as is useful to know, was originally in Mímir’s possession. This holy art, which came to mankind from the Goðin, is called Galdr. In ancient times arrangements had already been made to spread the knowledge of Galdr among all beings. He instructed the humans in the decrees of the Nornir for an honest life, taught them what true freedom is, and how the people ought to live in love, in order to win blessings from the Goðin. From this lore came the Nine Virtues: Honesty, Honor, Wisdom, Generosity, Kindness, Courage, Loyalty, Independence, and Piety. He also taught the first law, which we call the Rúnlög. When he felt they were ready, Heimdallr called his children together in Aurvangaland. There he gave them the law, the Rúnlög, and said: ‘Let it be your pathfinder, so that nothing shall ever go ill for you.’ Here is the law: Fé f Be neither a thief, nor a miser. Úrr u That which you send out shall return to you, so do no harm and work for the order. When you err, make amends; when you are wronged, seek reparation. Þurs T Be courageous and bold, and never shrink from a challenge. In your lives face the decrees of the Nornir with a strong and valiant heart. Ás a Journey on the Paths of Power with respect and devotion for the Goðin and the ideals, institutions, and traditions that represent their divine might. Reið r One must be careful when traveling about, retaining our standards of nobility and using wisdom in unfamiliar situations. In the company of others be modest and polite, as well as patient with those who are not. Kaun k The journey for wisdom, knowledge, and awareness is an eternal one. Those who will honor the Goðin accept the challenge of this quest sincerely and without expectation. Gipt g Be kind and compassionate, helpful and charitable. To your neighbor offer hospitality, generosity, and friendship. May they return it. Vend w Be happy and free, enjoy life to its fullest, and allow others to do the same, but be temperate in pleasing the senses, and recognize that certain aspects of human nature must be denied. Hagall h Understand that the forces of nature are innately neutral, and work neither for, nor against you. He who holds what should shall ever regret what is. Nauð n From necessity one gains strength, courage, and insight. The simple life most often brings forth what a person truly needs- health and happiness. Live for this and scold not those who are lacking in embellishments. Íss i Only the disciplined can be truly strong, and only the strong can be disciplined. One must understand in order to walk upon the Paths of Power, and one must learn and train to understand. Ár j Be responsible and industrious. Never shirk from obligated duties. Life is rewarding for those who will toil for its benefits. Ýr I Give honor to your ancestors and have care and respect in your treatment of the bodies of the dead. Give the praise to them that you hope to have after death. Peorð p He is wise who will listen to good advice, and noble who will scorn bad. Hear the counsels of the Goðin and Nornir and learn. Those who hear them clearly must not take lightly their duty in sharing providence. Elgr z The strong must protect the weak, most especially by never becoming the cold-hearted coward who would oppress or harm them. Sól s Be always a peacemaker, willing to help others settle their own disputes, and acceptant of the aid to resolve your own. You shall fight only when all else fails. Týr t Be honest and true, except when to punish a lie for a lie, and keep all promises, oaths, and vows at all costs. Bjarkan b Keep strong to your marriage obligations, and be wise in the upbringing of children. Jór e Be sincere and faithful to those who are your true friends. Know who are your friends and who are your enemies: give gifts and protection to the former, and cunning to the latter. Maðr m The bonds of blood are sacred, and unwavering loyalty to family and folk is demanded. Family devotion is manifested by helping them in any circumstance and avenging them in death. Lögr l Flow around obstacles and blockages, parting and rejoining, but always flowing with the gravity of one’s own örlög. Water is incremental and tireless, as are Heimdallr’s children. Ing N Find happiness in the arms of another; seek joy in the adventures of sexual pleasure. However, you must not defile yourself with the ignoble behaviors of perversion, sexual violence, or promiscuity. Dagr d Exist in harmony with the divine order by living in accordance with the law as set by the Goðin and Nornir. Strive for nobility and live so that you have an honored name and a judgment of approval over your death. Óðal o The best thing you can do for your children is work for a greater tomorrow and hand them down a legacy of wisdom and nobility. Teach your children what is right and watch the seed become a mighty tree! Then Heimdallr told them: ‘All regulations that last an age, that is a century, may, upon the advice of your leaders and by the common will, be written upon the walls of the burghs; when they are written upon the walls, then they are law, and it is our duty to hold all of them in honor. Whenever a law is made or a new rule set down, so must it be decided to the common need, but never to the profit of particular persons, nor of particular ættar, nor of particular states, nor of anything else which is particular.’” You are speaking about heathenism from a standpoint of never having studied it, and are consequently slandering it. You are not wrong that there are many who have who have converted to some strange form of paganism that never belonged to our folk. Those individuals, on average, are engaging in morally depraved behavior and are incorrectly representing our faith by calling themselves “pagan”, “heathen”, or whatever other term they are using. Many may find as Christians, that their morals are more in line with the Heiðinn Rúnlög than the Ten Commandments.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment, but I do find it humorous that you say I never studied heathenism when I spent the better part of a decade as a pagan and spent years in academic study of pre-Christian traditions, including Germanic, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, and Celtic paganism. I've read the Poetic Edda multiple times. It has no concept of Rúnlög and it is not a list of laws akin to the Ten Commandments. Whatever you quoted is not from a legitimate Germanic pagan source and is most certainly not from the Poetic Edda. Also funny is your abuse of the word "sin", which is a thoroughly Christian concept and not in line with pre-Christian thinking. If *you* are interested in learning about actual Germanic pagan practices, you might be interested in Dr. Jackson Crawford. He does a lot of educational videos for lay people such as yourself. I might also advise you look to Christian apologetics so you can understand where paganism errs and that Christ is the Truth. Have a blessed day.
I think Christianity is falling is because it's not European. Since the Crusades and then later the Renaissance (after the re-discovery of the ancient world), Christianity and the European spirit have been at odds with each other, as Christianity is a foreign religion (its a jewish deity and of the desert not the forests, plains and steppes of the Indo-European races). Norse, Greek, Roman, Celtic myths, and others are the religions of European ancestors. America itself is an attempt to recreate the Roman and Greek republic/democracy, the founders were looking at Greek and Roman mythology and history for inspiration for it. Christianity also does not offer anything for young people. And it's god awfully boring. I started questioning the whole damn thing when I was 8 or younger. It's better to enroll your son in Boy Scouts of America (when it was still good), sports and combat sports than Christianity. The ancient pagans turned boys and girls in grounded individuals thru tests and initiation rituals. The point of views are quite different. Paganism doesn't threaten eternal damnation if you don't follow their particular branch of craziness like the Christians do. It tells people to live to the fullest, leave a legacy and/or have children. Christianity wants you to live a certain way to in order to go to an afterworld that may not exist, damn the world (only one we know we have). Pagans are pluralists, Christians think in black and white extremes. Pagans believe in cycles and reincarnation, Christians believe in a definitive beginning and end. Pagans look at the gods for inspiration, to empower themselves; Christians are wanting for a someone else to save them and the world. Pagan gods are imperfect, and flawed just like we are. Men and women can become gods and goddess in the real world if they are great enough. The Christian god is omni-potent, omni-present, and omni-scient. And he is jealous and vengeful. Paganism reveres the body, beauty and health (look at all the greek statues, the gods, and great people are ripped) Christianity is all about the soul and praises being meek (Jesus looks starved on the cross) I can go on and on.
You could be a knower, a beliver or a pagan. It's so easy. The knower know that will come, the beliver wait he to return and the pagan thinks that should go to it as soon as possible or with little implication... like that one that let corruption happen - or one that explode themself. Pagans are the problems from the moment one life form gain desire to relate with other two.
