I've actually enjoyed playing a Beast as a type of anti-hero vigilante. I made a character with the Hunger for Punishment, and have him go after known criminals for feeding purposes. Working as a prison guard as his day job lets him get enough "sustenance" to keep his Satiety at a reasonable level, but when he really needs to get his fix he goes after the ones who manage to cheat the legal system. It also keeps in theme with Beasts working to build their own legends, and gives lots of opportunities for Heroes to pop up. I feel like Beast gets too harsh a reputation mostly because of its creator and the themes involved, and while I'm not going to say the criticism isn't warranted, it's actually pretty easy to make it into a more palatable game with just a few tweaks. Basically just build off of the concepts in the book rather than treat them as inflexible.
I use beast as a parallel for addiction. Something that hurts people around you but make you feel strong and good. Something that is ultimately destructive and bad but intoxicating.
The mage hate isn't just you. My problem with Mage is 2 fold. First the players (same problem I have with Mage the Ascension much of the time) tend to be Mage wanks, claiming mage is the end all, be all, and that no other splat type matters at all. My second problem is how the Mages' enemies are the true enemies of mankind and how they're really the only ones fighting the truly good fight, Uratha keeping spirits in check, Sin Eaters dealing with the dead, all be damned they ultimately don't matter in the face of Mage's enemies, hell even the death of Father Wolf and creation of the gauntlet didn't compare to the creation of the Lie and the minimizing of all other splat lines really turns me off of them.
What about a series of tier lists, each one focusing on a splat, you'd tell your opinion on Clans, Covenants, etc, then Tribes, Auspices, etc and so on
Promethean is a great example of a gameline concept that is way too narrow. Its game mechanics work well for 1-on-1 adventures that recreate stories like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, but actively work against having a group of friends or participating in a party, especially if that party includes PC's who aren't other prometheans. Again, it's an interesting game with cool concepts, but it doesn't work well as a tabletop RPG. Many of these rules can be houseruled away, but it needs a lot of modification to make it work.
Mage is awesome, especially 2e. But it's one of splats better to run when players know other ones. One of best sessions my players ever had. And yeah, you dig the concept of modern wizards and such. It's like playing Houdini from Spawn comic, or looking up for famous historical occultists but this time their magic is not full of shit.
Thanks for making the tier list! I was looking for Chronicles ones when I made my Lost book but couldn't find one so I made a derpy one just for Lost power levels
Love the video, glad I found your channel! I've been a fan of Lost for a long time, and I confess I didn't love 2nd edition as much as I hoped I would. I'd love to hear your thoughts between the two editions
Glad you are liking the channel! 🤗 CtL2e does a lot of good things mechanically from what one of my 1e friends says. (He likes how more powerful contracts can be and that tearing away the Mask makes contracts Exceptionally succeed on 3 instead of 5)
I think what I like about Deviant is it feels like it has so much flexibility for character creation without it spilling over into the issues you can get running Mage: the players still have limits. I also just really love the set up and idea witht the conspiracies and deviants and the people who make them. There's just a lot in that set up I find narratively interesting. I see what you mean about Promethean though, much as I love it, there isn't an in-built reason for the pcs to care or commit.
I will preface this with I haven't run most of these but I have spent a lot of time researching them so I have a decent idea of what I like and don't. Mage, to me and it's the one I ran, was a great intro for people who aren't big on chronicles or table top to start with. The players had a lot of freedom to just try stuff and I could just arbitrate it without the normal amount of "well the rules don't really..." that I usually have to do in DnD or pathfinder. I can for sure see why it doesnt play well with other splats but as someone who isn't really interested in cross over games, it's probably why that isnt as much of a factor for me. Also to level with you, giving players big brain GM powers lets me do even more 5 head nonsense and I'm a sucker for that.
@@joshprice4855 i think starting people with the more difficult games can sometimes be a mixed blessing, because as soon as they get over the hurdle of learning it the others are a lot easier to understand.
Deviant the Renegades and Geist the Sin-Eater are my favorites. Vampire the Requiem, Werewolf the Forsaken and Promethean are in my likes. Changeling, Demon and Hunter are in the okay category. Mage and Mummy fall in the dislike. Beast I hate, absolutely detest it. It's the one I will never play.
I'd argue the only one I purely dislike, is Beast, as its entire thematic is forcing the players to eventually fail and discourages their ability to choose how their character behaves. Not to mention, it was not at all what was advertised when initially kickstarted. "I have the soul of a monster", no thank you edgy 12-year-old bad writing trope.
The 2nd editions of Chronicles of Darkness benefited from over a decade of playtesting the new lore and social dynamics of the New World of Darkness over the 90s era games, but as gamelines they tend to be way too mechanically clunky. Mage the Awakening was always the clunkiest as by its nature magic needed to be the most cross-over friendly of all the various gamelines. Spirit magic needed to crossover well with Werewolf, Death magic with Vampire, Fate magic with Changeling, etc. Unfortunately, each gameline was too independent. The other big problem with CoD is that their themes are just too grimdark. Compare this with D&D, whereupon 5e is much more like an OS like Windows upon which a single gameline like Ravenloft could be grimdark, the Storyteller System of CoD (and also WoD) is just way too specific. What if you like vampires but would rather have an action-adventure? Sure, you can make it work but the mechanics aren't built for it. The design philosophy behind White Wolf then Onyx Path's writing was way too narrow and it shows in its limited popularity and niche audience.
For me personally, I'd say Beast is my favorite game in the setting, because it's the only one that gave me what I was actually hoping for when I initially came upon the franchise. A game where you play as a monster in a society of monsters. Yes, yes, all the other splats involve you playing a monster too, but those splats also include a struggle to hold onto whatever dwindling threads of Humanity you still have left. Beast says "screw that, we are monsters and we will behave as such. Fuck you, if you have a problem with it!" I bought World / Chronicles because I wanted to play as the monster after being subjected to years of games in which you play the hero. So I was very pleased to read that one of the themes for Beast actually involves circumventing the Heroes and showing them that this story isn't about their legend, but the monster's. Heroes in Beast are nothing more than glory seeking murder hobos that don't give a crap about anyone but themselves. They fight evil for the sake of stroking their own egos, to bask in the adoration of the crowd, and are infuriated by anything which the perceive as a threat to their sense of superiority. Beast: the Primordial is an awesome concept for a game, and as I mentioned before, is exactly the kind of premise that I was looking for when I first got into the franchise. Which is why I'm so disappointed that Chronicles has essentially been dropped, in order to focus on 5th edition World.
I think I've played more Mortal and Hunter than anything else. It's like my replacement for Call of Cthulhu or Delta Green. I don't know why, I guess I just like their rules better but still like the classic horror, sci-fi horror, and fantasy horror scenarios possible when you're just a normal person. It's funny that I seem to be the only one who would put the basic mortal line up in the S tier/favorite category.
I would love a tier list for complexity/ease to run. I've never played any World of Darkness and I would be interested in your opinion on where the best place to start would be as a player or as a GM
Definitely could do. Running as a GM will be a lot more difficult to do compared to how difficult run a character as a player. Such as Mage might be easier to run as a GM, but as a player you spend a lot of bookkeeping when trying to cast spells.
I can't argue to much with the list, over all I think each Game-line can be fun if you look at them it is hard to argue some. I will say however Beast is one I rather enjoy the idea of even if I only got to play once. When I played the way I did it was a Human who struggled and had to deal with the fact there Soul wasn't human, trying to balance the life of being a Human but also the desire and need to let there "beast" out. Which I did in a way where the character was a ganster and used there "Beast" To help keep there "Territory" protected. to try and keep those they cared for safe from other supernatural threats....and at the same time to be acknowledged by those threats.
I think with Mage you need to just make some really out there stuff that they can't effortlessly tackle. Start 'em off with a mud pit that spawns endless hordes of Werewolves, a Spirit court auctioning Fae Titles to rank 6 or higher Spirits, and a one-eyed Vampire under thrall of the God Machine who's somehow riding a Kerberoi. Later, let them know that 'The Left Field' is actually a newly discovered pocket dimension where magic takes a +5 to Paradox and Yantras become randomized, revealed via cryptic riddles to figure out., with rumors of a path to the Supernal Realm. Mage spells comfortably tackle adventures of a scope beyond reality. If that still isn't enough, being heavy handed with the availability of Mana and heavy handed with Paradox can go a long way to curb their power level. The Mage Chronicler's guide also outlines how to change the rules of the game to limit magic in a way that increases the drama (I particularly like using the Orders changes on p.34 as universal features). There's a webserial called Pale that is remarkably well written and captures the themes of MtAw that I wholeheartedly recommend if you want adjacent media to get the challenges of being Awakened. Coincidentally it also has the best concepts I've ever read for Vigil hunters and Beast the Primordial characters, though they are admittedly antagonists, or in beast's case really made me wish Beast stuck to 'Beasts are living narratives' or 'Beasts are the progenitor horror'.
Lore wise, there is a lot is very unlikely, even beyond the uniqueness that defines a Mystery. A mud pit that spawns a major splat is either a high tier archmage that was somewhat not reduced to paste by Luna, Sol, the children of Father Wolf and so on, which are insane entities with world ending powers. Even then, the other archmages would probably nuke him for violating the Pax Arcana. So apart from it being something that very difficult to happen, most splats at endagame would simply be curbstomped, its a tier above what player characters can handle and one with cosmic entities that take great pains to act covertly. A Fae Title requires a True Fae to wager said title, then be beaten in a competition for it, which involves placing them in a situation where they would even wager a part of their own existence. Even then high Ranking spirits gain nothing from them, since they cannot use them. Plus Rank 6 spirits are not common, there are very few of them worldwide, they are cosmic entities. The God Machine outright doesn't deal with Kerberoi because it considers the Underworld broken, also because Kerberoi cannot violate their Old Laws and normally cannot leave their Domains. Altering that would require the GM to break the status quo its trying to uphold. The Left Field has more adversarial mechanics than the realm of a Qlippoth, an enddgame Abyssal entity. Trying to limit mana early on is fine, but using Prime, exceptional successes from Fate, familiars and more means you will encourage throwing more power at problems once players have the power to move beyond these limitations. In short, the problem is that these ideas are trying to nuke from orbit the creative problemsolving that is one of the biggest draws of mage, which can lead to railroading. Its like saying you detest the Garou for being capable at combat, so you throw a private military with silver weapons as baseline opponents or stating you hate Kindred for being able to control social situations easily, so you make sure all major antagonists are Deviants (who are immune to mind control). If you are unhappy about running a splat, please talk to your players and try to find a compromise, tabletop gaming is all about the joy of cooperative storytelling.
@@KaiserAfini Respectfully disagree about the difficulty/Storyteller-goals of some of these hooks. Mages themselves are improbable demi-gods who can use rank 1 spells to sort out almost any mystery that doesn't boggle understanding; textbook paranormal activity is banal to them, strange (but plausible) warps in the norms are the only true tests for them (provided your players are looking for a test, of course). I don't think any of these hooks nuke the creative problem solving, quite the opposite they encourage creative use of the tools they have to circumvent unexpected challenges and detangle rare coincidences. Essentially I very thoroughly disagree that the GM is required or even expected to maintain the status quo. When everything is normal it's an uneventful pedestrian place, the 'lesser' splats can handle their respective problems and maybe the Mages feel inclined to participate. That's fine, I think most Mage games should exist within this state especially early on so players can feel out their capabilities and get comfortable with the setting, characters, etc. But when that gets upset by a real wrench in the works it acts as a good complex problem for your well-informed and connected Mages to tackle, which in turn is good story and gameplay for your players. - This is true for every splat honestly, Kindred society is depicted with long standing Princes that rule over their cities, who avoid the wilds and uphold the Masquerade. Yet most good Kindred games involve (eventually) killing or overthrowing the Prince, going into the wilds, breaking the Masquerade, rampant Diablerie, and all sorts of things deemed 'unlikely' by the lore. Just with Mage, unlikely becomes really weird and absurd since their scope is just that cosmic.
@@KaiserAfini Also this isn't necessarily important to my points or something I want to focus on because its exhaustive, but my quibbling about the lore is something I wanted to post. It is admittedly just is far fetched stuff that sounds cool to work out with unveiling magic, but very intentionally possible in the broader CofD. The Pax Arcana is specifically about using rank 6 or higher magic to change the fundamentals of reality. An 11 Gnosis Thyrus mage using 6 dots of Spirit/Life Supernal Magic to re-codify Father Wolf to be Mr. Rat (and therefore retroactively turn werewolves into wererats) is a Pax Arcana violation... obviously quite the cosmic problem and one I think begets poor gameplay. But a complex working of rank 4+ Life/Spirit spells that paradoxed into an abomination of a ritual is totally within the limits of a Mystery a group of Mages could sort out. Luna might not be *happy* about this but who's to say she's even aware or capable to unravel this herself? Is a mud monster in the shape of a Werewolf actually within her purview? Perhaps Luna addressing it is problematic, so she gave an ultimatum to the inhabitants that live near the mockery of life to uproot it or be uprooted themselves with devastating cosmic force, giving the players a time limit beyond the obvious problems. Likewise, a meager Rank 3 Spirit selling a Fae Title (perhaps this spirit was a pawn in a Fae plot that saw it take several titles from its rival Fae, with the expectation that these titles will filter back to the conspirator after enough changes of hands) to a Rank 6 Spirit raises questions about how to resolve the conundrum, do the players try to take the title back? Is this going to lead to a Spirit/Fae hybrid? Maybe it's a strange but sensible trade between powers that doesn't even need Mage supervision. More likely it's going to lead to a lot of hedge ghost activity. The God Machine is inscrutable but operates in a specific way. I know there are Vampires who have ties to the Underworld via Ghede and that Vampires known as VII serve the God machine.. so I just followed the connection to an unlikely but possible event. The Left Field is something I just pulled out of my hat, it's probably horrifying and broken as hell, but sounded like a good time if you're looking to retire a character by capping off a chronicle.
Why the Promethean went to the Haunted House? Because an Elpis Vision led them to it. Prometheans have a lot to learn from Ghosts a about humanity. There's a whole Refinement who specializes in the lessons from the ex-human about humanity (Silver)
They could also go if they were in iron and they wanted to protect someone else who was going. Or if they were in lead and they wanted to see if the ghosts interacted with them in the same way they interacted with humans. If they were in copper they could sequester the self in the house precisely because it gets them away from humans. All sorts!
My two favorite games are Changeling and Hunter. Demon comes in at a close third. There are reasons for that, and many of them tie into how these games contrast with their old World of Darkness counterparts. The two games I hate are Beast and Deviant. I don't think they even belong in this RPG universe. Every other splat takes monsters from folklore, puts them in a modern setting, and has them disguised as ordinary people. There are no folklore roots for Deviant, and any folklore roots or other niches that Beast tries to fill have already been filled, and the creators of Beast feel like they were trying to wedge/force their way into the Chronicles of Darkness in the most dickish way possible. I REALLY hate that mechanic that forces other splats to like and accept Beasts. I don't remember what it's called and I don't care. It's shit. I'd rather they make an Alien: the Invasion RPG (because that would at least based on modern folklore concerning UFOs) than these last two. Beast and Deviant are out of place. They can exist in their own pocket universe as far as I'm concerned. Promethean is okay. It's something new. I like Mummy and Werewolf because they are a good kind of different from the prior Mummy and Werewolf. Vampire and Mage I dislike because they feel like pale imitations of the more lore-dense WoD versions of Vampire and Mage. Geist is okay-ish, but you're playing a human interacting with ghosts. It's not "Ghost: the Haunting", if you know what I mean.
While I will disagree with your assessment of beast and deviant being unfitting in chronicles of darkness(just because world of darkness and chronicles of darkness can be kind of crazy and nearly anything could theoretically fit into the setting), I think alien: the invasion would be a genuinely interesting angle to go with. Potentially would have some similar overlap with other lines mechanics, but you could frame your players as inherently bizzare creatures that are trying to pass for human to blend in to this world to further their own species esoteric agendas, but also might find that their affinity for the world… that they have learned to blend into and formed a life to act as a cover… they find themselves closer to that than their own kind. For the alien, they are able to employ alien technology or abilities that overlap in potential to those of the supernatural community…some easily concealed while others are rather striking. Why a group of aliens from desperate groups might gather together in unified purpose is variable, though usually it is because of orders from their leaders, their own limitations, some combined comradery, or even a shared desire to protect the world from the invasion, usually by some other alien. Like if a Martian tripod war machine is being secretly stowed and upgraded as part of a overt invasion operation in the style of war of the worlds, it would likely be rather problematic to the invasion of the Body snatching aliens own plans for invasion, which might lead to the body snatching aliens collaborating with other groups or aliens to make sure the martians don’t take over, maybe leading to the creation of a targeted biophage that specifically targets and kills the martians that drink the blood of humans to aid in the production of the red root. As for what groups are a threat to the aliens… well… there could be a variety. From human clandestine government agencies and conspiracy theorists, to the supernatural and the alien. Most groups likely consider the aliens a legitimate threat, but there are those who would more than happily exploit them or reveal them for their own personal gain. Some aliens can exploit this, while others might consider the efforts of these groups to be an unneeded hassle to their agendas, whatever they might be.
I can't for the life of me understand why people like mage, it's flatout the most difficult game out of CoD and playing if feels like I'm studying for a uni exam, the lore is frankly not that interesting and the fact that they are basically unstoppable divinities means that games can, and in my experience most definitely will, be derailed by magic fuckery left and right, crossover with them is virtually impossible since they do everything the other splats do but better and there is really no sense of risk in it since you are never going to die or fail unless you really go for it.
@@AwkwardGMCorbin Favorites would be Werewolf, Vampire, and Mortal. Like would be Mage but it seems dreadfully complicated even if it also seems interesting lol. I changed "Okay" to "Intrigued" on my version of the tier list and put Deviant and Demon there. I don't own them but I'm somewhat interested in them. Somewhat. I changed "Dislike" to "Uninterested" and put Hunter, Geist, Changeling (though it mildly pains me to do so), Mummy, and Promethean there because I have nothing against them but they don't make me want to go out of my way to play them really. I put Beast in Hate.
I don’t remember a Sorcerer line, but there are Sorcerers in Mummy the Cursed. OWoD I’m not sure but searching for Sorcerer on White Wolf wiki brought this up: whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/World_of_Darkness:_Sorcerer
@@AwkwardGMCorbin yeah, that's it! Sorcerers were cool back in the days. As opposed to Mages, who were using dynamic magic, Sorcerers were using rites and spells that needed preparation and ingredients. I think it got discontinued and some Sorccerer ideas got merged into Mage with the introduction of Rotes.
Personally, I’ve always felt the personal horror for is this: Your soul is a merciless, cruel monster… but your heart is still human. Sure, you’re going to make new friends, but that doesn’t mean you want to lose the friends and family you already have. So now you’re stuck making some difficult choices, because your soul won’t be denied the fear that keeps it satisfied. And if you don’t feed it, it will go searching for food, and it doesn’t care who suffers as a result of its feeding frenzy. Worse the ripples it’s feeding will cause will attract people who will want you dead simply for existing. …So think of it like the balancing act werewolves have to stick to. Granted, the Core Rulebook does an absolutely horrendous job of getting this across! I especially like how, unlike most other lines, a Beast’s morality isn’t mechanically coded, but instead something left to role playing… which is admittedly a good and terrible idea, depending on the player
I actively avoid Mage games. No other game lends itself so much to munchkin/power gaming. "This game is about living in the world of darkness and it's dangers." Mage player: I'm bulletproof. I go first. I know your weaknesses. You can't see me. "Aren't you a research analyst?" Yeah...but mages want to free the sleepers, so I had to be prepared for battle. I'm also started up to specifically remove/negate the other PC's abilities...because they don't help sleepers, so I should know how to kill them.
@@cyrusmann5443 Occultist Anonymous did their own version, replacing the hate category with a better name, check it out: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cg6TOicSUR0.html
@@cyrusmann5443 I don't think either of us were disrespecting each other. I made sure to put the emoji I did so that it was clear that it was said without malice. We're all fine here.
@@AwkwardGMCorbin Easier than you might think. In the last year or so, D&D added playable monster races like vampire, reborn, hexborn, shifters, etc. All the classes/subclasses also give enough supernatural power frameworks to choose from. I'm playing a frankenstein promethean (monk of the long death) helping a fallen angel at the moment!
