Classic Altec Horn versus Modern ES-600 Biradial

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I compare the classic Altec 811B horn against the ES-600 Biradial with a full set of acoustical measurements for both. I also test the Altec 804-8A compression driver.
Further Reading...
Altec 811B with TAD TD-2001
josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/al...
Altec 806-8A Compression Driver
josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/al...
Altec 806-8A on Altec 811B Horn
josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/al...
ES-600 Biradial with TAD TD-2001
josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/es...
Product Link for ES-600 Biradial
josephcrowe.com/products/copy...
Current Blog Page: josephcrowe.com/blogs/news
Legacy Blog Page: croweaudio.blogspot.com/
Website: josephcrowe.com/
Facebook: / josephcrowediy
Intagram: joseph_crow...
Pinterest: www.pinterest.ca/crowe2065/_c...
Email: joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com
Troy Joseph Crowe is a small business located in Canada. He offers custom audio products such as wood horns and speaker cabinet design. He provides services to either individuals, small businesses, or start-ups. All of His designs are available for personal use in the form of 3D CAD files or CNC G-Code. If using for commercial use then licensing may be required for certain technologies. Joseph Crowe has a background in Mechanical Engineering Technology with extensive experience in both the Audio Industry and the Automotive Industry. All design work is done using SolidWorks 3D CAD modeling software. His focus is on audiophile two-channel music systems for the most accurate sound reproduction. Joseph Crowe follows a very methodical design process. Using acoustical and electrical measurement, along with various computer simulations, he can achieve designs that meet or exceed the original performance

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14 май 2020

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Комментарии : 57

@gregmiller3630 4 года назад

This is an excellent test as it scientifically confirms what I heard 42 years ago. I owned two pairs of Altec 846B's in the 70's (yes I'm that old) which used the same horn and compression driver combination that you tested, along with the N801 crossover and 416 bass driver. Even back then they were pretty rough by current hi-fi standards, and I ended up getting rid of them soon after purchasing them. While I loved the dynamics, I couldn't get used to the colouration of vocals and unlinear response in the mid range. A couple of years later I bought another pair of 846's to use for live PA and mobile DJ, and for that application they were excellent as they could "belt it out" for hours on end without blowing up. One has to remember that Altec's main source of revenue during their hey day was the sale of movie theatre sound equipment, so so components were designed primarily for that market, with other applications such as home hi-fi being secondary. That being said, I often wonder why someone would choose vintage Altec or JBL components over modern products such as B&C, BMS, RCF, 18 Sound, Celestion etc, as the cost is typically higher, and the performance is usually less. A real interesting test of modern vs vintage would be to see how the original TAD 2001 compares to the BMS 4552ND or Radian 475PB. Horn design has definitely advanced over the years, so unless one wanted a particular "look" for their horn, I can't see why someone would choose an 811B or slant plate JBL over a modern horn design as well, but that's just my take on it.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

Thank you for the comments. It’s interesting to hear your experience. I agree with what your saying.

@gregmiller3630 4 года назад

@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding I guess because I worked in both the home and commercial audio industries from the late 70's to the early 2000's, I was lucky enough to be able to actually hear the advancements in horn and driver technology as each new product was released. I've been following this channel since your early videos on the Eminence/B&C coaxial project, and have noticed how much your technical skills have advanced in the last few years, especially in the areas of horn and crossover design. Speaking of coaxials, I'm in the middle of building one right now and want to pick your brain a bit regarding compression drivers and crossover point, but will post my questions on that video. Keep up the good work as it looks like it's starting to pay off for you

@seeburgm100a Год назад

I have a pair of Altec Val's now and they are "Voice of the Theater" (A7) components that Altec stuffed in a fancy box and marketed to the home audio enthusiast. Those horns do need to be tamed, they are very in your face in smaller listening rooms. So while I agree that they are not exactly home audio, they are theater friendly or larger venue friendly. Specifically the optical sound track of film they were designed for is replicated perfectly by these speakers. I plan on using a pair in a pole barn theater I am almost finished building now. On the other hand, I own two pairs of 604 speakers, 604C in original 606 corner cabinets and early 604D (same as C with rolled paper edge) in custom built 620 style cabinets ported for the 604D. Each has new crossovers supplied by Great Plains Audio and they have been modified to work better with the 604C they are driven by tube equipment, one all vintage McIntosh and the other Harmon Kardon pre and VTA70 custom power amp. If I'm not mistaken these were the industry standard in many recording studios for engineering the final recording. If you happen to play an LP that was engineered with the 604 on a 604 there is some real magic there. They are not friendly with a lot of colored modern music, but 40's 50's, 60's, 70's music.. especially vocals, jazz.. I listen to a lot of rock from the 60's and 70's and they sound great, they can also pick apart a badly/poorly engineered album.

@gregmiller3630 Год назад

@@seeburgm100a Yes the 604 was the dominant mastering monitor in North America during the 60s and early 70s, and I know them well (mostly the G and H versions). If you're looking for a little smoother response, and less colouration, you may want to try some Radian aluminum/mylar diaphrams. (part # 1228) I've never tried them in an Altec driver so I'm not usure how much of an improvement there would be, but the JBL version (part #1225) is a definite improvement over the OEM titanium units used in the 2416 and 2425. They're a little smoother in the lower treble, and sound less "metallic" than the originals. If I still had Altecs, I would give them a try as it's not a particularly expensive experiment, and require no modification to the driver or crossover.

@russpeck1320 2 года назад

I have nothing but admiration for people like you. You work really hard, spend all kinds of time designing and testing an item, and then have to put up with mean-spirited comments. I have lots of projects and ideas that I would love to share on youtube, but don't because I'm too sensitive. Keep up the fine work and ignore the naysayers... I truly believe they need to be cruel to get attention in life.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 2 года назад

Thank you!

@rongoodman8874 3 года назад

Joseph...great methodology. Enjoyed it very much. I just wanted to let depressed owners of 811B horns know that if they cannot afford to upgrade to your wonderful horn, the Altec 811's main area of "ringing" is actually the big lips that extend out from the mounting flange. The entire 811 reacts very well to sound mat damping such as DynaMat and in the meantime I will start saving for your ES-600.

@johnsweda2999 3 года назад

Did you try the open horn at the back yet! a transmission line tube maybe with a diameter 11 mm 60mm long tube flared at the end connected to the driver body plate using a ring of blue tack as a gasket for the diaphragm would help as well

@illistraitordnb3155 3 года назад

This is a nice horn!!

@ahnenpost5237 2 года назад

the 811 B was combined with the driver Altec 806-8A. In this combination it performed 550 to 4,5kHz plusminus 1dB with a drop of 3dB per octave afterwords until 14k, than steeper. It was never meant to be used in a two way application. For use in cinemas the two ways were ok. For high fidelity applications, a separate tweeter is recommended. 3dB corners were 470Hz and 5k. It was used with a crossover of 800Hz. Is 50 years ago and more.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 2 года назад

This horn was used in many 2-way configurations by Altec even for mixing desk studio monitors. Why do you think it was never intended for two way? The documentation for Altec does not indicate this, neither does how Altec used it in the finished products.

@ahnenpost5237 2 года назад

@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding the documentation suggests to use separate tweeters if the highs do not satisfy - I remember something like that. And: of course Altec knew, that this horn lacks the highest frequencies - if the people are satisfied, why should they change anything?

@ER-yq1lc 4 года назад

Neat video, your horn tests very well! It would be interesting to see the Altec/Altec measurements as well compared to the second test on your horn to see what degree of improvement it offers even with a less optimal vintage driver. What software do you use for your testing?

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

I’ve featured that in one of the blog posts linked in the description. Generally the they do nothing to compliment one another.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

I use ARTA software.

@ronaldlee3537 2 года назад

Informative video. I didn't know that. I was interested in audio in the mid-1970s when all of this high-tech gee-wiz gizmos were in the domain of labs at JBL & Altec. I too notice the freq response fall off with my Altec 807(this is the small Altec 802/806 compression driver) with the Symbiotik diaphragm instead of the aluminum. The Symbiotik diaphragm is rated at Altec-rated 30watts with 800hz-15kHz versus the aluminum 10watts from 800Hz to 20kHz. But to my ears notice a bit of dullness in the high frequencies. I was going to buy a JBL O77 slot-radiator high-freq tweeter but at that time, it was a bit too expensive for my budget, I believe it was like $175. Of course today it costs >$1,000 with the clear plexi-glass phase plug on eBay. :O Instead I choose the more reasonable Electro-Voice T350 which cost something like ~$100 with the alnico magnet, and I used an electronic crossover with 12db slopes at 5kHz.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 2 года назад

I’ve heard the T350 on the EV Interface D speakers. It’s a lovely sounding tweeter. 👍

@callmebigpapa 3 года назад

Joseph if you are using a device like a dbx driverack pa2 (with rta) wouldn't that fix/flatten this making drive horn selection less critical? Also thanks for the amazing work you do and share with us!

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 3 года назад

This type if performance attribute cannot be corrected by EQ. If you fix the off axis then the on-axis suffers. Of course you could sum the two (RTA) and it would look good on paper. However that is not how we perceive the sound.

@rogersouza995 5 месяцев назад

Hi! Is there a high frequency horn design simulator for me to test ideas before making prototypes?

@asadabbasmirza9519 5 месяцев назад

Suggest to tame altec for domestic use .Also lancelot type or oaken type.Do u make custom crossover or component change suggestion for Altec A7 crossover

@jonathanknight8251 3 года назад

The waterfall response of the 806A looks worse than I am used to seeing for Altec drivers. Did you measure its distortion? I wouldn’t be surprised if it has dirt in the gap or a rubbing voice coil.

@hermanf473 5 месяцев назад

Hello Joseph I have a few questions about measuring horns 1. the distance of the mic, from where is this measured the throat or front of the horn. 2. measuring method with Dats do you always use "testbox method with 5 cubic feet.

@octilliondollars 4 года назад

How did you create that directivity pattern graph?

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

I use ARTA measurement software along with my rotary table which pivots the horn along the front of the horn mouth. I measure in 5 degree increments which is marked out on the rotary table.

@paulmanhart4481 Год назад

Hi. Very interesting video. Thanks. I just came into possession of two Lansing horns. One is a 901 B and the other is a 287. The 901 is very large, almost 3 feet across with a long neck. I can’t find any information on the 901 B (I think it’s a B. Can’t read it that well). Both horns appear to be in excellent shape. Can you enlighten me on what I have? Thanks. Oh, really, really nice horn design you have. I’m a lens designer and I’m interested in designing speakers, especially ones that have reflective elements. But I don’t know what software to use. What’s a good speaker design software package? Much appreciated. Paul

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding Год назад

I don’t really do much with the vintage stuff. I don’t use simulation software. It’s too easy to build prototypes and just test the actual thing. Sims don’t seem to be accurate for me. Acoustical electrical and mechanical all in interplay…computer programs often only consider one or two aspects.

@rickg8015 4 года назад

Hi Joseph.. What type of diaphragm is installed in the 806? Original Altec Aluminum? How’s the condition? It would be nice to see measurements if you had the 802’s..

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

I removed the diaphragm and it says '391311' with 'AL/45' ink marked. Condition looks excellent with no VC rub.

@rickg8015 4 года назад

Joseph Crowe's DIY Speaker Building Thank you.. I’m not too knowledgeable of the various nomenclature and numbering of phragms from vintage Altec.. But just to make sure that they are not Unofficial or China made copies as replacements (if bought used), better get new ones from GPA (current official Altec..)

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

I’ve done more research and they are definitely original. Also my measurements look similar to what others have posted.

@rickg8015 4 года назад

Joseph Crowe's DIY Speaker Building Thanks Joseph, for confirming they are originals.. If you can get hold of 902’s to measure that would be great. And maybe post on your webpage..

@moogsmiley4157 4 года назад

Man I would love to 3D print the ES-600! Anybody know how much it would cost to have a pair 3D printed? Thanks!

@keatonjones6115 3 года назад

Ill print some if some one can design the STL/3dm (and if i can use the file for personal use). looking at the size just roughly it would be about 30/40 bucks AU ea.

@Bunno1177 3 года назад

@@keatonjones6115 Hi mate, did you get this done? I am in Aus too and would be very interested

@luismelendez5747 2 года назад

@@keatonjones6115Friend.. can you help with my es600 printed horn project? I would purchase the plan for my personal use. And naturally compensate you accordingly 🙂

@boxkam 3 года назад

I want one....

@asadabbasmirza9519 5 месяцев назад

One can paste 3M bitumen sheet as used on car floors for damping and noice

@tybotti 2 года назад

The lips ring. Use automotive door edge guard on the flare lips.

@johnzhang6493 Год назад

The pointing angle of your horn is designed to be much more stable

@johnsweda2999 4 года назад

sorry not sure why your horn is a smoother response why is it a smooth response...! what makes it a smooth response. what about making a new wooden chamber for the back of the compression driver I think that would help, maybe cone shape pack this with some soft wool like Kashmir llama or rabbit wool

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

My horn has no acoustical reflections. Any reflections are going to effect the response smoothness. Anytime the sound encounters an abrupt edge there will be diffraction/reflections...look at the physical design of the Altec horn, there’s plenty of edges all over the horn mouth.

@jenniferwhitewolf3784 3 года назад

The 811 and its larger brother the 511 are absolutely 1950...

@jked7463 Год назад

Considering that the engineers had limited testing capability and limited materials understanding, they did a admirable job. While their dispersion may be more jagged, the over all width of their coverage is wider up to 10 k. These horns were probably designed for movie theaters. Optical film did not have very good high frequency extension. So the wide coverage to 10 k was important, the coverage above 10 K not so much. Also many movie theaters build wood walls around the speakers creating a half space situation. That may have reduced some of the air impedance mismatch at the horn mouth. Finally, they had to project through a perforated screen so they needed to have some pressure at the mouth to get the sound through. I always feel the need to point out that we should not judge what people did in the past by today's standards. You aren't necessarily doing that here but there seems to be a real problem today of judging people in the past (when their needs and priorities were different) by today's standards. Don't get me wrong, your horns are great. I bet they sound great. The two horns are very different.

@seeburgm100a Год назад

Exactly! These were voice of the theater components. Altec cheated by stuffing them in a nice wooden box and selling them as home audio. ( I still love them )

@jked7463 Год назад

@@seeburgm100a yes. I used to work for a historic movie theater chain. We had a warehouse of all of the old equipment from old christie's projectors to altec voice of the theater speakers. If I remember correctly, this horn is the small horn for smaller theaters. We had the big multi cell horns as well. To alter coverage for narrow theaters, they used to stuff socks in the cells that would project onto the walls. Crude, but simple and it worked. They didn't have any of the tools we have now. They did alot with a little back then. Always amazed at their ingenuity.

@mogensm.andersen6224 4 года назад

Time 4:26 you are not using the same scale...

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

The overall level is different which is just a setting in the measurement software which doesn't effect the response curves. Both are using the standard 50dB vertical scale.

@chalandelchalan6326 4 года назад

Distorsión por vibracion

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 4 года назад

I don’t always show the distortion sweeps.

@oturgator 3 года назад

You are just looking at the graphs and telling what everyone can see. The impact of power response into the room or the opening angle lacks description. A 10 min read at DIYAudio forum gets anyone to this level, nothing special in this level of graph commentary. Besides, how can you even talk about power response while taking on-axis (even at 1 meter) measurements, just goes to show that what you think about “a decent horn”, having flat frequency response and no sustaining standing waves is not linked to perceived quality of the design. Anyone, with a little effort can achieve these targets. Maybe you should be examining designs from Augspurger or Earl Geddes and examine the trade offs. By the way, that rising trend in your impulse response measurement was quite hilarious, thanks for sharing that. Better checking the acoustic centers of the drivers before running this test, maybe that part was missing in the user’s manual of ARTA, after all they look like a good signal processing company rather than an acoustics based one like MLSSA or even Audiomatica.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 3 года назад

Thank you for the feed back. What specific performance attributes do you think my horn lacks that the other horns referenced excel in?

@oturgator 3 года назад

Exactly my point, your “scientific” approach and the subjective grading that you are sharing fundamentally has no correlation ground. Maybe a little Floyd Toole can help you there, however, not with the “objective” approach you are taking. That can saturate and blind the average RU-vid content consuming DIY enthusiasts who are new to the hobby and create a false appreciation to your work, but I believe the people who know what they are doing, do not even bother to correct your methodology, not because it is not evident, but most probably they don’t know where to even begin.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 3 года назад

Using test data that has been subjectively correlated according to Flloyd’s work, what specific performance attributes to you think my horns lack?

@oturgator 3 года назад

@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding You are asking the same question over and over again, where I am pointing at your methodology which you use to quantify the performance metrics is not suited for those performance metrics. With this shared data, it is really not clear how you are claiming what you are claiming. I am sorry but, due to lack of proper measurements done from your end, there is just not enough data to answer your question, and my whole feedback was on this topic, maybe I was not clear enough.

@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding 3 года назад

“But most probably they don’t know where to even begin” If there’s so many issues in my methodology then please provide a few specifics. Am I missing certain tests? I’m assuming these tests are supported by Floyd’s research as having better subjective correlation. Also, why can’t you answer my first question regarding the other horns mentioned...I’m familiar with Earl’s waveguides, but I’m very curious what specifically you feel I need to learn about regarding his OS horns? Having built a few of his horns myself I’m at a loss on what specifically you could be referring to.