Classical composers against their own clichés 

how can people call Liszt a "bad composer" 🥲, my boy literally made the piano sound like a orchestra

Thing is, Liszt was never a bad composer. It's just that there are so many bad performances, that you have to filter out all of the really shit ones to find the gold that's hidden underneath. That aside, my favourite part of the dante symphony is the entire magnificat movement, where Liszt creates images of angels humming in the sky. It's one of the most beautiful things I've heard.

The thing with Chopin is that, even in “happy” pieces, there is deep down a sense of grieving, like remembering beautiful moments with a lost loved one. In that sense, I would say that almost all his pieces have a “sad” moment in them. The heroic polonaise is an exception

I think it should be very normal for a composer to go against his standard at some time because you don't feel the same emotions your whole life long. Humans change their emotions and so does the music change

How can anyone claim Lizst was a bad composer? His sonata was probably the most important piece in that genre since Beethoven and I would wager few pieces have equaled or exceeded its significance since. His talents go way beyond etudes

"Mozart is so cheerful!" *Boss music intensifies while the Commendatore's massive health bar appears* Also, Wagner can be surprisingly gentle and non-loud when he needs to be. And Rossini can be serious and dramatic (especially in Guillaume Tell).

The prelude of Lohengrin is absolutely gorgeous, makes me cry at times

Thank you so much for the Vivaldi representation ! In my opinion amongst all classical composers he is the one that suffers the most from the clichés. As you said either people only know him for the Four Seasons, or they claim that his music is too simple and repetitive. But if you actually venture into his massive and diverse library, you'll find true masterpieces, counterpoints of utter beauty and complexity, inspired and modern pieces and of course, the usual fiery and intense Vivaldian explosions. For anyone interested you can find a playlist on my channel of my selection of the best of Vivaldi's pieces (haven't finished listening to all of Vivaldi, so said playlist might grow in the future).

I’m a classical music noob and the only piece I really knew from Schubert was Der Erlkonig. “Good natured” was not my first impression.

3:23 : "Most young students play the notes of this piece more or less correctly, but without ever penetrating below the surface of the music, to realize its infinite beauty and deep emotional content. Considerable musical feeling and interpretative technique, as well as knowledge of and experience in the use of the finer pianistic tools are imperative to do justice to this music." Maurice Hinson

NGL this seriously needs a second part 👀 I would like you to show Beethoven's other side of music instead of those struggling ones (there are some of his cheerful works in the middle period compositions)

It takes a real connoisseur of classical music to produce such a video. Thank you so much for this video.

Underrated Video, I enjoyed all of it! I especially like the care and time you put into searching all these pieces.

Thank you for this video. A very needed one. Especially on Vivaldi, whose work we have re-discovered almost a century ago and still far too many people haven't got the picture. The subtle simplicity of the Maestro just goes right over their heads. The lack of imagination of theater directors is also at fault, their fixation on the Four Seasons to the exclusion of the concertos and above all, of the operas and oratorios is inexcusable at this late date. As for Liszt being a bad composer, can someone remind me of a composer in living memory that is distinctly, head and shoulders above him, without a margin for doubt or question? The gall of some self-appointed critics! P.s. You're quite right, we metal heads love Vivaldi. 🤘🤘😉

Another composer that I was actually hoping to see in this video and that I'd say has some tenacious stereotypes is Beethoven. If I ask someone who loves Beethoven what it is that they love, they usually give me things like this: Powerful Dramatic And if I ask someone who is super familiar with Beethoven about what they think of, they will often give me this: Ahead of his time -> Often with Op. 111 as an example Rule breaker Developing a massive work from surprisingly little material -> Often with the Fifth Symphony as an example And I myself as someone who has heard over 100 Beethoven pieces in their entirety know that there are pieces that go against all these stereotypes. Like take his Fantasia in G minor Op. 77 for example. It's improvisatory, it's bright for a significant portion of it, even with a moment in it where it sounds very Scherzo-like. And not like a dramatic Scherzo either, but a joyful and humorous Scherzo. Or the Flute Sonata in Bb WoO Anh. 4, that's by no means ahead of its time. In fact, if you didn't know it was by Beethoven and you just heard the sonata without looking at the music, you would probably think that Mozart wrote it. It feels very much in the same vein as a lot of Mozart's sonatas, bright, happy, not dramatic at all. It was written between 2 years before and 2 years after Mozart's death, so between 1789 and 1793. Or Fur Elise, I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Id be great if you could also showcase so of Beethoven's music. People only know him as the guy who wrote Für Elise, Moonlight Sonata, and his 5th Symphony, and they think he was a person who only wrote melodramatic music. He has a lot of softer music that people don't know about that.

Thank you for this excellent video! I’d love to see a follow-up with more composers - particularly Elgar, Shostakovich, Rachmaninov or Gershwin!

I wish there were more videos like this! Such a breath of fresh air.

I haven't really listened to a lot of Haydn, so I would have thought that the little excerpt from Creation was composed by Beethoven if I didn't know any better. I guess Haydn's influence on the young Beethoven was even bigger than I ever realized.

Je me permets ici de répondre à quelques commentaires pertinents et intéressants ! Peut-être aurais-je dû expliciter ma démarche : Tout d'abord, certains "clichés" mentionnés dans la vidéo sont issus de sondages, collectés auprès d'un public mêlant mélomanes avertis et personnes non-initiées à la musique classique. Le premier angle de l'expérience est ainsi "sociologique", au sens où l'intérêt se porte sur la façon dont la musique est perçue par le monde contemporain. La musique classique, notamment, est porteuse d'une image très connotée, et abreuve un imaginaire empli de stéréotypes, dont la confrontation avec la réalité musicale me paraissait intéressante. Ensuite, ces clichés, certes erronés, n'en demeurent pas moins très répandus dans les institutions musicales. À titre d'exemple, par expérience personnelle, j'eus nombre de professeurs demandant d'interpréter les "forte" de Schubert avec moins de force ("ce n'est pas Beethoven"), ou de préserver intacte la "délicatesse" de Mozart. Or l'entretien de tels lieux-communs dans les cénacles institutionnels nous détourne des réalités musicologiques, et nous prive bien souvent de la profondeur ou de la pluralité musicale que les compositeurs ont à nous offrir, ainsi que de la représentation que nous autres interprètes pouvons donner à entendre. Le grand chef d'orchestre et musicologue Nikolaus Harnoncourt parle de ces enjeux d'une façon particulièrement éloquente dans son ouvrage "Le dialogue musical" (Gallimard, 1985) : « L'idée qu'on se fait du classicisme viennois est déterminée par un certain nombre de clichés [...]. Schubert est considéré comme un pur romantique et lyrique ; chez lui les contrastes sont indésirables [...] la violence beethovenienne n'est pas son affaire. [...] Dans la diversité des possibilités d'interprétation légitimes, il est évidemment impossible que de tels préjugés soient entièrement faux, mais ici presque tout est déformé et inexact. [...]. Lorsqu'on étudie les partitions manuscrites de Schubert, et non les éditions édulcorées et polies réalisées dans l'entourage de Brahms, on découre des crescendos extrêmes, du ppp au fff [...]. Les interprètes actuels - musiciens de chambre mis à part - s'en tiennent généralement à la vieille édition "édulcorée" dans le goût de Brahms, et ils estompent, même ici, toutes les duretés et les frayeurs qui restent. L'image qu'ont de Schubert la plupart des mélomanes est maintenant fondée sur les trop nombreuses exécutions de ce genre. Je crois que si l'on découvrait une hypothétique exécution originale de Schubert [...] elle ne paraîtrait pas schubertienne et que dans l'indignation on la condamnerait sans hésiter : "Enfin, Schubert n'est pas Beethoven !". » Harnoncourt démontre ainsi que les clichés n'émanent pas seulement des images sociales ; ils sont activement créés et entretenus par les acteurs du monde musical eux-mêmes, parfois malgré eux, imposant ainsi comme vision unique ce qui s'apparente à une ouverture aux contresens. Qu'il s'agisse des interprètes, des éditeurs, des garants des institutions, on aperçoit qu'un "polissage" comme le dit Harnoncourt a eu lieu, pour des motifs idéologiques ou simplement par perpétuation d'une tradition. Il y a donc une "falsification" musicale qui s'entretien par l'édification de tels stéréotypes, et c'est aussi en ce sens que la nuance redevient indispensable. Ainsi, ce sont des clichés "plutôt faux" puisqu'ils sont, naturellement, des clichés sans nuance ; mais ce ne sont pas de "faux clichés", dans la mesure où ils ne sont pas inventés simplement pour satisfaire les besoins d'une vidéo : la plupart sont documentés, ont une histoire et une permanence tout à fait digne d'intérêt. Je suis navré si la présentation de tels stéréotypes paraît ainsi caricaturale voire grossière. Le trait est en effet grossi pour amplifier l’effet de contraste, à l’instar de ce que produisent certaines vidéo « clickbait » foisonnant sur RU-vid, et dont cette présente vidéo se voulait l’écho et la nuance. Je vous remercie de vos retours, il sont très appréciés !

I've always considered the Chopin Piano Concerto #1 in e also very unlike the vast majority of his repertoire. Unlike the typical walty, mazurka, or polonaise-ish stuff , or even the meditative [but slower] nocturns, this piece begins with a massiveness & classicalness that suggests more like something from Brahms. The finale, as you know doubt know, returns to the kind of stuff we're used to from Chopin.

Mozart’s “Don Giovanni” is a true masterpiece.

I was quite surprised when I first heard Domenico Scarlattis "Stabat Mater" for 10 voiced choir. He is actually most famous for his 555 keyboard sonatas but the Stabat Mater blew my mind.

Very nice! I have always felt that many, even in the music community don't fully appreciate the depth and versatility of these composers.

Shostakovich: dissonance, dark, depressing, anxious but: piano trio 1, suite for 2 pianos 2nd movement, prelude and fugue A major

My favorite counter to the Wagner stereotype is the “forest murmurs” of Siegfried, Act 2, Scene 2. Very beautiful and light-hearted, even if it doesn’t last long. Siegfried’s Rhine Journey in the Gotterdammerung prologue is a great piece that’s somewhere in between the forest murmurs and the ride of the valkyries in terms of tone and intensity.

les nocturnes de Debussy sont très clairement une inspiration majeure de ce qu'a fait John Williams en musique de films

Mozart's KV 475 Fantasy was always my favorite bit of his: It comes across as something he improvised and then wrote down later, and it meanders wonderfully all over the place. You want a mood, any mood, it's probably in there.

Great video, love all the counter-examples. I had a thought that Mahler is the only composer that wouldn't be on this list (and that is what makes him great) because his music is everything: soft loud, slow fast, simple complex, vulgar sublime etc.

I would love to see a Part 2 with Beethoven in it. :)

The minor 9ths in Vivaldi's Lauda Jerusalem are metal af. What a dude.

Great montage! It is widely acknowledged that Mozart's work toward the end of his life tends to be more somber, far from being all cheerful. The clarinet concerto, some of the late piano concertos (KV 466 and 491) and symphonies (KV 550), are among his best and emotionally deepest works. Just look for the minor keys!

How wonderful! Vivaldi especially needed this video. As with any composer, there are more stereotypes we can push back against with him. How did you make this video? I'd love to do so myself specifically for Vivaldi. Let's show people his counterpoint.

Liszt's oratorio "Christ" should have made the list, it is an example that he knew how to write for the entire orchestra, plus soloists and two choirs all at once. Very beautiful.

J'ai beaucoup aimé la démarche! Cela ma fait découvrir de nouvelles composition musicale de Stravinsky et de Debussy !

For the next one you should do something involving Shostakovich. I know he's often categorized as gloomy and morose, but his 9th symphony is very much a joyful and bouncy piece.

Dios, cómo amo la música de Vivaldi. Él es mucho más que las cuatro estaciones. Si vieran todas sus obras, sabrían que Vivaldi tiene más rock que cualquier banda moderna.

I love the smooth transition from the G minor moment in the Don Giovanni overture to the G minor section of K. 466's romanze!

This is a great way to get a fuller and more realistic image of their music and also discover new music. Refreshing video.

Fantastic subject. For Wagner I would add many passages from Parsifal, as well as the very lyrical aria for Worfram in Tannhauser, "O Du mein holder Abenstern" as other fine examples that contradict the cliches. The quintet from Meistersinger is another example. Vivald is a stunning composer, the very opposite of most anti Vivaldi cliches. Having conducted much Mozart opera I agree that Don Giovanni in particular is anything but "outdated and precious". It could be called the first truly "romantic opera" in many ways. Another great example is the fantastic fugato music for the two armed men in Magic Flute. This demonsrates a mastery of counterpoint equal to that of Bach. Liszt is perhaps the most underrated composer of them all.

I can think of some more for Haydn and Mozart. Haydn’s Stabat Mater and Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross are very somber works. His Piano Sonata 53 in E minor Hob. XVI:34 has been described as comic for all of the pauses in the first movement, but the dreary E minor key gives it a more menacing, dreamlike quality in my opinion. I paired it with Fuseli’s painting The Nightmare when I uploaded it to my channel. As for Mozart, his Violin Sonata in E minor K. 304 and Organ Fantasy in F minor K. 608 both defy the “cutesy” idea of Mozart. The proto-Romanticism of the Piano Rondo in A minor K. 511 is another contender. Ditto for the Piano Concerto No. 24 in C minor K. 491.

Bach : sérieux, pesant, compose seulement des fugues ennuyeuses et de la musique sacrée pour beaucoup. Il a également composé la Cantate du Café qui raconte l'histoire d'un homme essayant désespérément de convaincre sa fille d'arrêter de boire du café. Ravel : essentiellement connu pour son Boléro. Son concerto pour piano témoigne d'un certain intérêt pour le jazz et c'est à lui que nous devons les orchestrations des œuvres pour piano de Moussorgski. Tchaïkovski : compositeur de ballet, très pessimiste. Son premier quatuor à cordes est tout le contraire. Rachmaninov : pianiste, très difficile à jouer, assez sombre. Sa polka italienne est très légère et les mouvements lents de ses concertos sont souvent très doux et apaisants, en contraste avec les allegros tourmentés.

Une vidéo absolument géniale ! Merci pour le travail fourni ! Je ne peux que vous encourager de continuer 😁😁

Great content. I need a second part!!!

Je veus que tu fasse plus de video de ce style! C'est vraiment un delice à regarder

I've loved this video! Very original and insightful 😊

Amazing video, i learned anout new pieces thanks to you!

I can't believe that there are people who look down on Vivald's musical work. None of them can do what he did. I say f 'em.

Debussy's 3 chansons de Charles d'Orléans is also a good example of another Debussy : vocal a capella, rythmic, old school techniques, counterpoint...

The clichés are still clichés, really nice and enlightening to see the other side of the famous composers in accordance with the Law.

Amazing video! I love it! I would love more of this. Great exeerpts

Bonjour, je suis prêt pour une deuxième partie ! Merci beaucoup !

Votre analyse est très pertinente on voit que le sujet est maîtrisé félicitation c'était très instructif tant musicalement que linguistiquement parlant !

For Chopin, a beautiful exemple would be La Valse du Petit Chien, it checks every opposite boxes, it's joyful, playful even, fast and you can totally feel how well he captured the image of a litle dog running after its own tail :)

You happen to include my favorite symphony of Haydn ^^

What a wonderful lineup, love it!

Excellent de voir par des exemples concrets que tous ces clichés ne tiennent pas la route. Bravo pour Vivaldi qui est peut-être le compositeur classique le plus sous-estimé. Pour Wagner, le contre-exemple est excellent mais il aurait peut-être fallu en donner d'autres histoire, que les gens ne disent pas qu'une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps. Le premier qui me vient à l'esprit est le prélude du 3ème acte des Maitres Chanteurs. Mais j'ai envie d'écrire tellement sa musique est à l'opposé des clichés évoqués ici. Quant à la chevauchée des Walkyries, ça n'est ni lourd , ni pesant, ni pompeux...C'est tout simplement génial. Vous devriez faire une vidéo pour détruire les clichés sur Beethoven colportés par des gens qui pourtant écoutent de la musique classique et que l'on trouve parfois dans des livres. 1- Beethoven n'est pas un mélodiste. En contre exemple on peut prendre entre autres le début du mvt à variations du 12ème quatuor. Mais surtout: 2- Beethoven ne savait pas écrire des fugues et son niveau en contrepoint était très moyen voire faible. C'est la plus grande ânerie que que l'on puisse lire ou entendre et des contre exemples, il y en a des dizaines.

Thank you for this. Fascinating

Thanks so much for this interesting and informative video!

Une approche originale, pédagogique et agréable ❤

Vidéo très construite, je suis reconnaissant du travail fourni ici. Merci.

Marvellous, thank you for this gift to humanity brother

Very nice piano playing!

That's a great video, thank you for it

What a cool video! Merci :)

Super intéressant comme concept

I agree with the Beethoven fans demanding Beethoven. He had a playful/lighter side and also there's the cliche spread by people misinterpreting Bernstein, that he can't write melodies. Also early Schoenberg, if that counts, could be in a sequel.

Very interesting video! Hope to see more creative vids like this from other creators. You have earned a sub ;)

glad to see people are still completely misunderstanding Liszt after like nearly 100 years.

Nice job with this video!!

The beginning of liszt’s Faust symphony goes through all 12 tones

Extrêmement intéressant!

Les "étiquettes" sont pratiques pour être lues de loin ; mais de près , souvent , elles perdent tous leur sens... Merci par cette étude d'apporter ici de précieuses nuances

Excellente vidéo !

A superb video. And quite an eye opener! Also, I find that many of the comments here from fellow You-Tubers are very intelligent, including those in French. I would be quite happy to translate, into English, Walden Nyhl's comment that starts with "Je me permets ici de répondre à quelques commentaires..." (I happen to be bilingual). The way I've often (to myself) described musical stereotypes is that classical music can become "ritualised" i.e. we take in the first few seconds of an ultra-famous piece of music, we get a dopamine hit (because we *recognise* it within milliseconds); thereafter we stop any real "curiosity-driven" listening, and we react to the composition in a predictable, comfortable, comfort-giving way. Truly new music, be it from 150+ years ago, like the fine examples given in this video, or be it more recent, original *questing* or *searching* music does not initially provide a dopamine hit, because it requires mental effort, it makes us uncomfortable, and so we tune it out, we switch it off. I imagine that "branding" operates the same way: we are taught to recognise a *product* in a fraction of a second; thereafter, whether we accept or reject it, we stop thinking about it.

Nice one! Thanks!

very well made video

Very nice!

My favorites started to turn stale and over-listened. Then this video showed me lots of fresh, exciting music

Très bonne vidéo! Elle permet de rappeler qu'il ne faut pas réduire un compositeur à un style donné par un morceau ou plusieurs. Il eût été possible d'inclure Bach aussi, en réponse aux nombreux clichés jugeant sa musique très (trop) mathématique, sans passion... alors que sa vie a été dédiée à insuffler la passion de sa foi dans ses compositions (surtout Masses, cantates, œuvres pour orgues)... Bravo pour cette démarche !

If you hear someone says that Schubert wasn't good at symphony and piano music(or just a lieder composer), just give this video to them(??

Haydn's 45 is one of my favorites, played it with a chamber orchestra in music school

Thank you😊

Excellent

Haydn is 'simple'? I've sung his _Creation_ Mass, and it was the most difficult I've ever done. Multiple fugues, and basses lead every single one. In the Gloria, the bass part goes from G at the bottom of the staff to E-flat above Middle C in like ten measures. But it was so much fun once we figured it out.

for more versatility of debussy, just check out his two books of preludes. it's like treasure hunting.

Takk for denne intelligente videoen.

Franz Liszt only has been seen as only a "transcriber", and a "player just for show". They forgot his genius from pieces like Reminiscences de Norma, and his 36 Etudes (Exercises, Grandes and Transcendentals).

Can we get a part two with Beethoven, Mahler, Rachmaninov Tchaikovsky, ravel, Brahms or even some lesser known composers like Dittersdorf or Vanhal?

Very good video. i wish you had included Berlioz.

Wonderful video, tho I was kind of hoping to see you challenge the stereotypes associate with Beethoven; namely, that his music is always dramatic and stuff, which is certainly not true, even in his late era.

bravo !

I think Wagner stereotypes are just plain wrong. Most of his music is emotionally and musically complex, lovely and passionate; ride of the Valkyries is more like an outlier to me than the norm. Also, my favourite non Haydn-like Haydn is the slow movement of String quartet Op. 76 No 1 with the Alban Berg Quartet. It's also one of the most non C-major like C major pieces in my opinion.

Some pieces by Chopin that would go against the cliché are the Ballade #3 in A-flat, op. 47, 3rd movement of Piano Concerto #1 in E minor, op. 11, Scherzo #4 in E, op. 54, Rondo in E-flat, op. 16 and Mazurka in E, op. 6 #3. There are many other examples, but these pieces blow the cliché to bits. Props to the poster for digging up the Ecossaise, published posthumously.

Nice interpretation of Mozart 😊

“Chopin is a composer that composes slow music!” Me, plays the piano, staring fearfully at his etudes and ballades

Brilliant

I must disagree you in regards of Chopin. even the examples you showed were demanding pieces! although the slow part is obviously false. I would say the major stereotype of Chopin is that he is a simple salon composer. obviously that being an extreme misconception.

quality video

Part 2 🙏