CLOSE CALL. Near MIDAIR between departing Airplanes from LAX Airport. REAL ATC 

lmfaooooo

😂

I almost spit my coffee out thank you

😬

Oh lord. 😂

Aren't we all.

090 ??? lol right !

ATC gave them a Direct To fix to fly, that cancels the heading assignment.

@@raphaelventura8465 Yes but that was only after she asked 3 times for the heading again.

@@ImpendingJoker at least one of those times she was stepped on. for the other ones, I suspect he was busy reacting to his almost causing a collision

😂 I had the same thought

@@Airman_Fu Me too

that has happened a few times here

My BIL is a captain & instructor for a large passenger airliner, he has requested a number that he could call because ATC did something unsafe and wanted to talk to them about it.

It's tough to judge without seeing a mode c altitude readout, they could have been separated by 1000ft+ vertically. TCAS RA's can trigger before minimum sep is lost. Also if they are both flying the RNAV DOCKR departure then their track should be the same and AAL wouldn't have been able to cut off ACA. In that case a speed restriction should be enough to prevent an overtake. Departure controller should have recognized it for sure, but someone wasn't flying the procedure.

You have to have standard separation before you can apply visual separation. I wish people would make a knowledgeable comment before making a dumb comment.

It was a little late for that.

"Unable", back to jail

@@kjay5056 Uh . . .no. The controller is telling them to see and avoid other aircraft.

Not exactly. What he's doing is telling them that they are free to maneuver if they see a conflict with the other plane -- they won't be creating another problem if they have to turn, dive, etc.

I’m honestly appalled: why aren’t there SIDs that take care of the separation? This knitting of aircraft in the sky is totally unnecessary. Or, use RNAV waypoints and continue to use the RNAV waypoints!

Professionals don't do things normal people would do . That makes them distinguish from the norms . Just like lawyers , they use terms that can be easy to understand if speaking in plain , simple language . They use terms that make ordinary people look dumb .

There are SIDs that take care of it. I don't work at LAX I work departures off Atlanta. Controller caused this 100%. Probably trying to give Air Canada a shortcut with the initial 110 heading but forgot to climb them as well and both were leveling at 50'. Hence the stupidity that ensued.

What’s an RA?

@@GRosa250. My best guess it’s a TCAS Resolution Advisory.

They use it to buy drinks for everyone when the shift is over

Just a dollar? How about a dollar per soul on board both planes?

Try $1,000. That was too close!

@@bubbaoriley7864bingo

More like a hundred dollars in the TCAS for those two screw ups.

Like stay home that day

Never heard tower or departure change them from runway headings. I'd either be fired or viral with all the what the F are you doings I'd use.

@@nightwaves3203 They were both cleared to a GPS point after departure hence the heading change, but I'm not sure how they ended up on different tracks.

@@desertsaker196 Yah I noticed airspeeds weren't included.

@@desertsaker196 ORCKA is radar vectors KLIPR to fly NE over the airport, DOTSS is usual RNAV to head east. ORCKA has a turn to 236 at DOCKR, DOTSS a turn to 220. Climb ACA a bit more before turning back and this is a non-issue, give direct PEVEE to AAL and it's probably a non-issue.

😂, true. I once was cleared to taxi back to the ramp after exiting the runway, and I told ground, holding short, she then caught herself and then thanked me for not colliding with a United jet in my path.

It was self critiquing. I'm sure the boss was well aware.

So true

Never. There’s no accountability with ATC. They’re federal employees who can’t be fired.

I can't count the number of times these D-bags have messed up and put my life at risk@@tigersfan14

I don’t think so. It looks like someone wasn’t flying the SID. They were both cleared the same RNAV departure so their flight paths should have been the same.

Truth. He should have waited a minute longer for the first plane to get clear for spacing, before letting the second plane go.

@@michaelconvery8871they had the same initial waypoint, but it’s shared by the ORCKA and DOTTS departures, which each was flying. I made a longer post explaining how the design of these departures and the interval at which these aircraft departed can cause this situation.

@@michaelconvery8871 DOCKR is a RNAV waypoint, not an SID - and this waypoint is about 2nm from the end of runway 25R. It is possible that the two aircraft had different assigned SIDs, as many of the SIDs out of KLAX 25R share this waypoint. However, considering that the U.S. commonly uses 'vector departures', it is possible that the aircraft were expecting vectors after crossing DOCKR, but the departure controller mis-timed / mis-coordinated these vectors.

@@55455817296312345678yes. They are RNAV SID’s. I see the error now looking at the plates. It looks like one was on the OSHNN1 and the other on the DOTSS 2. Interesting!!

That close is too close.

What they are doing is chewing out the controller -- and getting it RECORDED, in case of later need.

Pretty sure they're required to advise over the radio that they've had an RA.

@@BenJuan26 what is RA

Resolution Advisory - RA - onboard system coordinated evasive action - one plane climbing, one descending to gain sufficient vertical separation.

lol

You have to use your rear view mirror.

​@@michaelbrennan8294Just be careful when reaching out the windscreen to adjust it. And to wear your oxygen mask.

I once had an ATC do that to me in real life. There was a TBM who had departed just behind me, blasting to the departure fix like it was the last thing he was gonna do. ATC gave me the six o’clock traffic advisory as I had just about made it there and I just said “Roger”. What I really wanted to say was “negative contact; dropping flares and breaking right”.

yeh they are the worst…😂 especially if they look like a smoking flying telegraph pole and you are in Russian airspace.😢

Most of them likely didn't' even notice. Those that did probably thought, well that's awfully close but it's LAX.

Nothing.

They were all watching their Vision Pros bro

@@Zico20 😆 🤣

WTF. OH MY LORD.

That's the most likely explanation. To add to this, it seems like the departure controller was relieved in the middle of this. So it's likely the controller going on break told the relieving controller he issued the climb to Air Canada when he actually didn't. The relieving controller expected ACA to be leaving 5,000 before they would be an issue with American.

You're probably right, but where did both get their clearances to 5000'? DOTTS2 is initial climb 17000' with DOCKR AoB 3000', WEILR AoB 5000' and DOTTS MNM 15000'. ORCKA5 on the other hand is initial climb FL230 also with DOCKR AoB 3000' and KLIPR MNM 10000'. I don't hear any instruction to climb 5000' only for either of the flights. Did KUSA give them that?

@@organfreak1212 all departures off LAX are initial climb 5,000

The 17,000' is the top altitude of the SID. All clearances out of LAX are usually to: "Climb VIA except Maintain 5,000". Once you get handed over to Departure they will either give you clearance to a higher altitude or a CLIMB VIA Clearance which would then clear you the rest of the way to 17,000' in this case. @@organfreak1212

When you assume you run the risk of making an ass out of u & me-or at least getting into a serious mess.

Maybe to separate the traffic?

The ORCKA5 requires a vector back to KLIPR. The DOTSS does not.

@@rjdverbeek Well, some of it _is_ Canadian, so I guess that makes sense.

It all circles back to the training they receive. You're only as good as your instruction in the radar room. We have seen that standard progressively go down and down (DEI). Retired ATC LAX...so I know!

@@kjay5056 just say you’re racist. It’s shorter.

wasn't there a close call on the runway because of that? They thought the plane would take off and already cleared the next one, not realizing the first plane stopped on the runway. Luckily the pilots in the second plane noticed in time. Might have been a different airport, not sure

To add to this I believe this happened during a controller overlap so the first controller may have told the relieving controller he issued the climb to Air Canada when he actually didn't

makes more sense to have the AIr Canada plane make a right turn, no?

Did AC delay their turn on the SID or did AA begin theirs too soon? And what happened to 5min entrail sep delay?

he also told AAA that ACA was turning to the Northwest???

220 pilot here - thing climbs slow af gonna be out climbed by the 321 not doubt

@@pilotbennycontroller here, thanks for reassuring me that it isn’t my imagination 😂 I’ve been convinced of this for months. Caught me out a few times!

Sorry what is a RA?

@@randymcmeekin1955 TCAS Traffic Collision Avoidance System R.A. Resolution Advisory

No

Don't disagree, but both planes were given instructions direct to DOCKR yet the trailing plane turned early and began to overtake.

@@d_mcg DOCKR is basically right of the runway, if the American was on OSHNN1 or DOTTS2, the turn he does is part of the departure. For Air Canada, if he's on the ORCKA he has to continue on a 236 heading for vectors towards KEGGS

@@d_mcg "Don't disagree, but both planes were given instructions direct to DOCKR yet the trailing plane turned early and began to overtake." I do not believe the American jet turned early. The American was on the DOTSS2 RNAV and it appears they followed the route which is a turn left to WEILR after DOCKR which is just off the coastline. The controller screwed this up.

@@d_mcgthey both crossed dockr as instructed.

The nature of the ORCKA needing a vector while other aircraft are own nav is a setup for a near miss like this or worse. Yes, it’s on ATC here to maintain the separation, but I’d think it would be easier to deconflict the traffic by designing the separation into the departure procedures so that no ATC instruction is necessary, and no conflict can occur.

I think the DEI initiative will lead to many deaths.

We just need more diversity and dei hires to make that happen Idiocracy is a documentary

I think a lot of us wonder if this was DEI. Not saying it is, but if it is, there will be no followup. The DEI policy is more important than public safety with the current administration. @@ragheadand420roll

You're right. It's terrifying to think about two heavies colliding shortly after take-off, especially as there's usually suburbs and dense residential areas beneath the climb out /approach zones. Does seem bizarre to have two aircraft departing so close together and cleared to the same fix though - wouldn't it make sense to alternate the initial fix for such close departures? To be relying on assumed vertical separation seems very dicey.

are "near collisions" recorded anywhere reliably?

Comments like this are so pointless. It’s like telling someone that it’s only a matter of time until they die. Duh.

@@marcellkovacs5452 It isn't pointless to criticize a process we know is going to lead to needless deaths.

What does ROC mean, and what does PV mean?

@@adamwatkins1150 Hello, ROC means Rate of Climb.. (and ROD = rate of descent). I will try and make it easy to understand for you 😊 If ATC is expecting a certain minimum (or maximum) rate of climb, and/or a particular speed and you climb or fly slower / faster or change it then the ATC computer can only predict what it sees at that time, it may not be wrong as such but, the also TCAS (Traffic or Collision avoidance system in the aircraft, another prediction engine) predicts potential collisions based on where you and the other traffic are and what you are doing and if you continue to do it. If it thinks there will be a collision it gives you avoiding action, (an RA or Resolution). It may be you are still turning, speeding up / slowing down or starting / reducing a climb etc. in which case the prediction is maybe premature but you still have to follow it. It only gives CL

I saw the same thing. Somebody didn’t Rnav DOCKR. Appears to be Air Canada. DOCKR then WEILR looks more like what AA did. AC appears to have been on runway heading then fixed it into LNAV late.

Both airplanes went to DOCKR as cleared. Their cleared routes diverge after that as they were on different departure procedures that both use DOCKR as the first RNAV fix but diverge after DOCKR. This was controller error, not pilot error.

He didn't need to give a speed...all a/c below 10,000' have to maintain 250kts or less unless operationally needed.

Different departures, same first waypoint.

It probably felt like they were turning.

Turned them towards danger. Gutsy move MAV.

@@2whl4re To the right. Immediately. 😄

I suspect the TCAS would have sounding.

I wonder if they got those "OH CRAP!" Bars installed like on cars!

Lmao

What's the point of question marks if you don't use them?

@@TheCOZ What's the point of your keyboard if you're just going post shit.

@@thesim1990 Aww, did someone not pass English class? Do you realize how dumb your statement was?

Air Canada is on a loop departure (look up the ORCKA SID off LAX) which relies on ATC issuing the turn back towards land

They had plenty of space. The issue was the departure controller leaving Air Can at 5000 and forgetting to climb her to 12,000 while having American 345 climb to 5000

You only heard what they said over the radio.

​@@RLTtizMEAs I have imagined being a passenger: Close call happening. Captain: Bargh! F-- S--- D--- Ahhh! (Captain picks up intercom) ladies and gentlemen, it's a sunny day and we'll be at Atlanta in about two and half hours. You may unfasten your seatbelts. Enjoy your flight.

American saw AC the whole way. You would have had a different reaction had both been in the clouds and if they were head on.

@@decyattysyachpchyol delusional psychopath....sht

Not his fault with the guy in the tower...it's the radar controller giving vectors and not alert enough to see what he did wrong

Aca began banking and maintained 5000 feet while AA continued climbing to 5000 on its current heading then were told to turn which was heading towards ACA. The controller forgot to tell ACA to climb at FL120 until much later

Most likely to stay below arrivals in case of radio failure.

It's done automatically. There is a snitch patch which will alert someone higher up that there was a possible "deal" that occurred.

AA was following their DP as filed and cleared. It’s a different departure than AC was flying and the “early” left turn was simply the segment from DOCKR to WEILR, as charted.

This is correct. @@CharlieFoxtrot00

RIP

Tail gunner cam. 😉

that's funny!@@willer3399

Right.

No it isn't. The pilots were visual with one another and the TCAS system worked.

@@JohnSmith-zi9or you hold on firmly to your hope while I'll observe the statistics and odds.

@@wjatube well the statistics continue to go down every year haha

No it isn't. The sky is big, visual maps are not. They were both in a southern direction not facing head on and they had a Tcas warning.

@@ishaq9939 keep laughing while ignoring workforce shortages and falling standards.

Or just let air Canada climb via

@@bradkenny1506 I did check the altitude in this SID but this is another stupid mistake to clear both of them to same altitude! Insane

thanks for this, im assuming you control at LAX?@@AM-hs4bz

250 till 10,000. Transition altitude in the USA is 18,000. You can adjust your speed to 250 kts from slower just as well as faster.

Two different SIDs.

The ORCKA departure that AC was on requires an ATC instruction to make the turn back to the NE toward KLIPR (which is just about back over the airport, just shy of the beach) or any subsequent waypoint. The DOTSS departure, which AA was on does not.

Yeah, but they don't have enough getting through the training already.

It was on January 17