Closeted Bullies are all over our screens. How real is this trope? 

This and really it's a dangerous trope in the long run it makes LGBTQ people have a perspective that can cause violence.

I hated what they did with it in Sex Ed. Hate that Eric ended up with his bully anyway.

And I oop

I hate this trope soooo much!! And also, who would be romantically involved with their bully? 😡

It's just a trope. A character archetype that Hollywood understands and can copy and paste when they need a character that does the things this character type is known for. It's not about "saying" anything or reinforcing stupid unspoken messages. People tend to forget, it's just a movie. A piece of entertainment.

I remember how when I was in elementary school / middle school, my friend was shipping me with a guy cause we were always fighting, and she refused to believe me when I said I was hating him at the time. That was not LGBT+ related as it was a straight ship, but your comment made me think about that. And I think it is even worst with LGBT+ people because it encourages them to accept everything and to forgive things even if they don't want to.

@@nanalove3819 Same here, my colleagues kept teasing me that I had a crush on a guy I was fighting with and that only made it worse. The more they teased me, the more I disliked him. That was until I started high school, then I moved on but I still feel like it had an impact on me because I thought that when things were too cool when going out with someone it meant that something was wrong and they were losing interest and I ended up pushing people away because things were going "too well" and I would end up believing something bad will happen and it would eventually become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I really hope people ditch this unhealthy mindset that when someone bullies you they like you. It's really harmful and it makes people misinterpret abusive relationships as genuine.

@@nanalove3819 It's a shame she didn't ship you back as a defective product

This is the dumbest thing I have read on the internet this month.

When did the P come?

bi products of this trope I can't find the name for

@@Laquia abusive relationships

Me too. People kept telling me ‘ so-and -so teases you, because he likes you.’ Normal people don’t go around destroying other people

YES

Wait socialised as a girl

That's literally me

I have a dumb idea, closeted ally bully. They keep bullying people but it turns out the bullying is just their own asshole way of discreetly ruining bigoted students lives, and they’ve developed this emotional wall of violence in response to homophobic abuse, and they’re actually only closeted because he would genuinely be unsafe in his house if he came out.

This, in my experience, is way more common than the fictional “closeted bully.”

¿Eso no sería también un tropo?. Eso sólo reforzaría el estereotipode de qué cualquiera persona heterosexual qué los apoye es un Queer en el armario. ¿No sería mejor qué el aliado siguiera siendo heterosexual en vez de salir del armario?

👏👏👏👏👏

This. It’s in my opinion that a lot of tropes we see as problematic are not inherently problematic. The problem arises when the writing is sloppy and the characters are not fleshed out properly.

+

I love it 💗 edit: the movie idea, I mean

I'd love to see both on screen. There's not enough nuanced in 🏳️‍🌈 characters portrayals and most times than not, It relies on lazy writing, coddling the straight audience &/or piling on tired ass trope.

I was just saying the same thing. We need better representation of allies rather then redemption arcs where being gay gives them a pass.

Girls get into abusive relationships for completely different reasons. 😁😂😅😂 It's not that simple.

Which is why I’m irritated that Santana was used in the thumbnail… she wasn’t a bitch bc she’s closeted & homophobic, and she wasn’t ever nasty to Kurt or Blaine SPECIFICALLY bc they’re gay. She was an equal-opportunity bitch and I love that for her

And he never ends up with or even becomes super close friends with Kurt, who was frequently the main target of his violent bullying

I actually like the fact Eric didn't like Rahim just because a guy is nice sensitive and sexy doesn't mean there's anything wrong with someone for not being attracted too them,ultimately eric and rahime had nothing in common and the show highlighted religion being very important to eric so the moment rahime revealed himself to be atheistic who sneered at religion that kinda emphasized they weren't compadible. I'm still not big on eric x Adam but pushing the idea you should date a guy just because hes nice and hot is also fairly toxic.

@@alorapendrak2925 I don't think the issue was that Eric wasn't attracted to Rahim. I think the issue was that Adam was going through a redemption arc and Eric was his reward. The entire history of Adam & Eric up to that point consists of abuse, sex and few nights of breaking things while talking about their feelings. Their relationship was exciting but only because it existed in a bubble. After Eric chose him (in the following season), it became clear that they didn't have much in common and Adam wasn't ready to be anyone's boyfriend. What they had was superficial. If Eric were more mature, he would have recognized that before leaving Rahim at the point in which they were actually getting to know each other.

Nobody watching these movies is thinking that only gay people hurt gay people. My God, this comment section is stupid...

i love this more than anything rn and i NEED to watch this

Never let your sexuality get in the way of your bullying! LOL

Actually not totally correct. Ben is obviously a closeted bully, he is just a side character and not part of the main ship.

@@hellolimitless9432 he doesn't get to be with Charlie in the end unlike the stereotypical trope, and the viewers aren't forced to sympathize with him. Heartstopper is breaking boundaries

you havent watched a lot of lgbt media then if you think heartstopper is the only show that subverts this trope

@@neon2319 Yes you are right, that’s why I said it’s not totally correct. Ben do not end with the person he bullied and don’t have a redemption as of now but he still embodies the closeted bully trope even if technically he does not bully Charlie in public.

@@Ray03595 you could very well give suggestions then! I did mention it was the only series I had seen.

i still love the gay trump/putin stuff, just because i know it would make them angry. Idc if it's politically correct or not, it's simply funny.

And that bully *heartstopper & nick and Charlie novella spoiler* eventually learns that being homophobic is not a good way to make his friends laugh and grows up a bit. He apologizes to the people who he bullied (who don’t forgive him. Which is also a nice touch) and he acts like an attention seeKong idiot but not a bully to them later. He still remains an immature teen boy but he stops being a bully. I think that arc is so much more real than the closeted bully trope

:O Wait, what? A boy got raped by 6 other guys in a school and they weren't arrested and prosecuted?!? What type of school did you go to???

@@Luboman411 Ratchet ass high school in the country they always hide shit

exactly if it was straight couple that would not fly

You guys complain about anything. The bullying isn’t that serious. They put things aside to be important to each other.

@@PNesssmol "bullying isn't that serious" yea alright stay away from me

@@starsareglowing Funny of you assume people would want to be near you. It’s the flow of a literal narrative. I’m not sure why you took it personal. The main idea is the bullying gets put aside by the victim because they saw it was out of a psychological flaw, they see how serious bullying was and see it as an obstacle they over came to be with one another. It’s used in many shows and books. You see if in real life as well.

But I understand it’s trendy to be over critical like a twitter feed. In that case. Periodt sis. It’s the toxic masculinity for me.

Heartstopper also showed Charlie dating two characters in the closet and clearly showed that one was abusive and totally in the wrong, while the other was a great case study of meeting people where they are and self-discovery.

I don't know what The Take is still waiting for to make an analysis on Heartstopper.

@like where sorry, I had a hard time understanding what you meant, do you think you could explain it to me? thank you!

@ Heartstopper is the first show I've ever seen that actually shows a pseudo romanticized version of queer youth(which is really fucking depressing since it's 2022) and for that it's legendary. Maybe they're ust trying to find out what aspect in particular they should cover? I personally think they should do those character series' like they did with The Office where they go into each character extensively Whatever, they do I can't wait for the analysis so I can quote every single scene they use as an example word for word

Yeah and as a bisexual, it was nice to see that they didn't use Ben as a kind of "All bi/mspec people are unfaithful or secretly homophobic because we still got Nick and everyone loves Nick

i m so happy to hear it. congrats btw

Cute ❤🧡💛💚💙💜

Yes, this is how it needs to be shown in stories

Congrats dude!

Congratulations to you both ❣️ 🎉

Agreed, it also seems that you have to forgive them right away, and forget any bullying that they previously did.

pop culture these days: Forgive your bully, it's not their fault. they're going through worse than you

@@loadedx16 despite the fact that some of the bullies are rich

Like someone else in the comments mentioned Heartstopper did a great job with this trope (one stereotypical closet bully and another Not) they showed that closeted people ARE NOT always bullies.

@@kittykittybangbang9367 rich people can have it hard too because I'm sure in some rich families they don't allow their kids to be gay or they will take away their inheritance or disown them 😖

But the closeted bully trope by definition is simply a branch of the same tired trope of the secretly pining potential match going out of their way to be aggressive to show affection. It's not a gay or straight trope, but the idea that some abuse is love unable to be expressed in a manner befitting adults; Veronica Mars and Logan Echolls anyone?

Also, the bullies being closeted gays implies that the homophobes are other gay people, and that the straights are bystanders.

what I find weird is, that somehow it is framed as a redeemable quality. It is a sound explanation going with real world psychology, but how did people turn it into an excuse, that it sure as hell is not?!

True, well said

I second that.

I dont know about that as a gayman myself ive never bullied anyone and ive seen alot of stories like this i think guys that bully gays could be gay themselves but not all of them are imo anyways

Yep, I have two counts of girls bullying me in school for being queer who are both now out as lesbians. It is real unfortunately. I couldn't fucking believe it when I saw the girl who made my life hell on tinder looking for a girlfriend. I know I'm just an anonymous person on the internet to anyone reading this but I know from my own shitty experiences that sadly this trope does sometimes exist in real life and it hurts when people say it doesn't.

But there are also a few studies that suggest that often the most vocal and aggressive homophobes are gay themselves, so even though as always, media take it all out of proportion, there is a bit of truth to the trope. What I find worse is the depiction of relationships between bullies and their victims.

Appropriately, homophobes at this point are indeed largely "homophonic" in how near-identical all their arguments and screeds are.

Precisely, I hate how their previous bullying is immediately forgotten about, and they usually start dating their former victim. Especially egregious in the case of "Sex Education", where Otis points out that Adam made Eric's life a living hell for years, and he's only just showing remorse now.

The straight bullies are the mean girls trope

@@trinaq Oh I HATED Eric and Adam’s romance, especially when he chose Adam over Rahim. It’s such a bad and unnecessary storyline in an otherwise pretty great show. At least in Euphoria, Jules sticks to her guns in being hateful towards Nate, despite them both having complicated feelings towards each other.

@@tariqthomas9090 I don't think we've heard the last of Nate and Jules. Remember how he admitted to her that everything he wrote to her as his alter ego was true? I think next season she will get involved with him again.

@@WinterSoldier0315 I hope not. It was going to be basically Adam and Erick 2.0, only much worse. At least Adam wasn't a sadist and even at the beginning of the series, he showed some trace of humanity and empathy, unlike Nate who is almost a "super villain". Putting Jules, a trans woman, with several problems of her own, who has already been blackmailed with her nudes and traumatized by him, would be unforgivable.

100% it ends up giving us a lot of glorified couples that really are quite toxic.

Also, I feel like it needs to be said; "pulling someone's pigtails" and bullying them are two different things that get massively conflicted in media. There's a difference between squabbling or teasing someone because you don't know how to say you like them, and making someone's life hell by threats, destroying their property, and God knows what else. The "they do it because they like you" *can* be a harmless trope if executed right *but* it is mostly done awfully in media.

It can happen but it isn’t the normal. And as you stated all is just not forgiven just like that. I am engaged to my high school bully, but: 1. I hated him even more when I found he was attracted to me. Went out of my way to let him know I hated him. 2(probably the most important one). He put in the work. He dug down deep, came to terms with his sexuality, went on his apology tour as he came out, endured a hellish year for him when he came out and was disowned by his family as a whole and kicked out, yet he still kept trying to improve himself. 3. He took all my shit I put out patiently. He never went back to bullying, and I noticed. I fell in love him for it.

@2freeIvX but still, it's not the same. Like, I don't even like the trope, but even I can see that the dynamic between two enemies is so not the same to an aggressor and the victim of said aggressor. When it's between enemies, usually, it's clear that both parties are standing on more or less equal ground and the conflict goes both ways. And sometimes, it's more like they're just on opposing sides, with opposing objectives and there's nothing personal in the conflict. But the bully torments their victim and the victim just wants to be left alone. There's a power imbalance and no reciprocity.

That’s what happens when writers try to make being gay someone’s entire personality. They forget that there is an actual person underneath of that label. We also don’t talk about the misogyny that occurs within the community and that it’s not just one big happy family.

​@@LoveAndSnapple y ese es el problema con la representación de minorías étnicas o individuos Queer en los últimos años. Son tratados cómo adornos qué cómo personajes. Son estereotipos parlantes y andantes sin propósito más allá de ser la visión negativa de los guionistas heterosexuales o la autoinsercion insípidas de los guionistas Queer/LGBT modernos. Tomemos por ejemplo a Sokka de Avatar: la leyenda de Aang. Inició cómo el chico machista y cómo alivió cómico, pero con el paso de las temporadas los guionistas le dieron un gran desarrollo; pasó de tener pensamientos nocivos hacía las mujeres a valorarlas cómo guerreras y líderes (gracias a Yue y Suki), superó sus inseguridades e inquietudes y aprendió de sus errores.

Now this would be a great new take

Exactly, most if not all queer people deal with internalized queer phobia but its different for everyone. Like for example, in my case I was taught from a young age that if my ideologies didn't align with my mother's (I also have a dad, but my mother's presence is stronger) I would be rejected, shamed and punished with silence, if I curiously decided to ask a "controversial" question, I would be shamed for asking and my mother would make me feel as if I just made the worst mistake in the world, she would take that as a personal attack on her person, therefore I just had to think like her every moment, basically study her thoughts like a text book so that I wouldn't say things out of turn. She wasn't a full of hate homophobe, rather a forgive the sinner and condemn the sin bs, she would talk about her personal friends who were lgbtq so she couldn't possibly hate them, but still if any of us (my siblings and i) decided that we liked a character that was queer, she would guilt us until we stopped liking that. The thing I figured out sooner was my gender (non binary, at age 13), which she despised, she hated that liked other clothes and all of that, to this she was more outwardly phobic of (she isn't hateful about it anymore, but she doesn't take seriously at all, neither for me or my sibling who also is non binary). In case of my sexuality, it wasn't until my sister came out as bi that I finally accepted and realized that I also liked girls (17), this was a pretty active thought in my mind now looking back, but the brainwashing was strong so I lived in denial, I first came out as bi, but turns out I had more unpacking to do bc I found out men aren't really a thing for me, so I came out as a lesbian not so long ago (19). My parents are supportive now, but they still struggle with some stuff and need to be more humble at being allies tbh, sometimes they refuse to listen to us (the actual queer people) and act as if they know it all lol, but well at least both my sister and I get to be happy now. Also shout out, to my very supportive brother, the token straight sibling haha

This so much! This is why we need more queer writers in the room

​@StopIgbt Good for you. Won't make you less gay, though. I hope you find happiness eventually.

Yes, exactly! I think a good example of what you're saying - even if it's not comfirmed - is the possible internalized homophobia in Mike Wheeler's case in Stanger Things. It manifests itself in much more subtle ways than we see in the media and it affects a different kind of person than the typical jock, as Mike is a nerd. It is clearly shown to the viewer, and it actually is a central aspect of the show ( outcast, kids who are outside of the societal norms of the 80's ). If you look at his character and all the queer coding closely enough, hid queerness and internalized homophobia are very clear, I think. All of his bizarre behaviors would make sense in this context. It would explain a lot of his illogical actions, why he acts so differently from the beginning of the show, etc... I really hope they did it on purpose, that there is a real intention to talk about this topic, because if so, they are doing a good job.

Totally agree

I have an idea for a story where there’s a closeted homophobic bully who kisses his victim drunk at a party, claims it’s a mistake that he doesn’t intend to do again, and at this point we’re being lead to believe he’s in love with the guy he’s bullying. But plot twist, when he is crowned prom king he kicks the queen off the stage and gives the crown to his fellow bully friend in a grand romantic gesture that they’d been planning for days, then they publicly kiss on the podium, and after this point the two continue to bully the protagonist after the fact. Another idea is that the homophobic bully doesn’t hide it from the protag and actually catches him alone to tell him exactly what he’s doing and that he wishes he could stop but can’t because sympathizing with him publicly would make him the target of bullying, too. Or a third idea, the homophobic bully bullies a gay student because the student is femme with a lisp and therefore he thinks that rejecting him makes the LGBT community look better, and the bully is actually openly gay himself and has been trying desperately to appear as a respectable face for gay people to the homophobes around him. Or maybe the bully is actually not even consciously homophobic, and really wants to have an actual gay friend to relate to because the straight people around him don’t really get the whole gay thing. His redemption arc starts when he realizes that the boy he’s bullying is actually gay, making him the only gay person he knows at his own school. This results in him trying desperately to make a friendship between them work.

I also have an idea for a story where the homophobic closeted jock isn’t even slightly mean to the gay people around him actually tries befriend the boy he secretly likes rather than bullying him, but due to his stereotypical ideas of what a gay person is, ends up pushing the guy away and has to confront his biases.

@stop Igbt you must have a lot of free time, congrats 👏

That's an awful take, you're basically blaming queer people for a trope that's harmful to queer people

@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 thanks for that. But when you’re faced with relentless aggression for years and years and you’ve got conflicting feelings you need something to make sense of it. We didn’t have the internet or spaces to find refuge or make sense of it in ways that are rational or perfect.

@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 They literally didnt say that gay ppl are too mad

@@yeebler i had a headache trying to understand your comment

So like Stockholm syndrome for bullied people?

I'm surprised too. That show went on for so long so you can definitely see his growth more clearly.

Oh yah, very true! I forgot about Mickey and Ian. I hated both of their dads. They were both pieces of shit, but because we also got things from Frank's perspective, they framed him as slightly more sympathetic, especially towards the end. But I'll give him that at least he wasnt homophobic and accepted Ian for who he was. Whereas Mickey's dad is a whole other story. He tried to sabotage their wedding lol!

That was an unexpected ending 😂

@@boatymcboatface4120 I mean that's how ut should end 🤷🏻‍♀️

They do, but this trope is over exaggerated to the point of where it’s basically negative representation in a way. Especially the way they get a redemption arc 9 out of 10 times.

@@edgytypebeat781 what is the problem with them getting redemption arcs?

@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 The issue that it shows that you can be rewarded for such fucked up behavior. Like for example, Monty is a literal RAPIST and got a redemption arc before he died. He should’ve went to jail but no he did not.

@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 It's a problem depending on how it is done especially if they're the only homophobic character in the show/movie. If the only real homophobic representation comes from closeted gay/queer people it kind of creates this picture that homophobes aren't nessecarily bad people (or really homophobic) they just haven't come out yet and their hatred is coming from a personal place of insecurity and shame when in actuality most homophobes are just assholes. Most of them aren't queer either.

@Taylor Parker I was just adding my personal anecdotal confirmation to their explanation is all

You can say this ab any trope

And him outing the bully is not right it is a full on Hollywood bubble view of acceptance and no backlash which happens still.

I agree, but that stuff was the only part of Glee with any emotional depth at all (which was a bigger problem, I guess)

They didn't even address that he was SA by Karofsky during this storyline

@@NA86737 When did Kurt out his bully?

@@NA86737 he never outed karofsky though. if anything, the writers made it a point for kurt to repeatedly say he wont ever say a thing to anyone about the kiss or karofsky's sexuality. the entire side plot is shit and never should have been done in the first place, but kurt never outed anyone throughout the show. maybe you're thinking of finn outing santana?

@Nutjob Tommy Reacts that makes so much sense

@Nutjob Tommy Reacts like what in common?

@stop Igbt Is this you announcing you are a closeted gay? Aw, sorry but I already got a boyfriend

​@@octabodemes yikes are you schizophrenic because who are you talking to 😂

Ppp pop pop play play B p

Yeah. I also think Fitz still believe Lester is gay and the he only got rejected coz Fitz like his boys young, like Ricky. So that probably hurt him a little more.

I totally agree with you. Though tbh I also appreciated the twist ending more for this reason. I thought I was watching the soft and sensitive gay boy guide the closeted homophobic bully through a redemption arc, how predictable. What ends up happening instead was so much more satisfying. Lol

Yeah, well the ending kinda destroys this trope. The young gay boy murders his abuser.

@@theitalianalien8477 I don’t think the only trope of homophobic people are closeted gays. There are homophobic people that just hate anything that’s different from them.

It is.

happy birthday

If you pay attention in his episode in season 1 and all his trauma with his dad sex tape, you will see Nate have conflicts about his sexuality. This guy is bi, pretty clear.

@@gabriellacardosopaiva417 I think seeing his dad doing gross acts from a young age obviously gave him bad trauma and affected his sexuality, his own dad gave him sx abuse nightmares, that's doesn't make him bi or gay.

Exacty. It's funny how people claim that they see trans women as real women until a man is attracted to them. Suddenly, the trans woman doesn't count as a real woman to these people? It seems transphobic to say that a straight man must be gay, bi, or pan because he's attracted to a trans woman, because it implies that they still see trans women as men, or just not fully female. That's what I think is very tricky about people saying that Nate is "clearly in the closet" for being attracted Jules. She's a trans woman. You can't say you recognize trans women but then also say that men who are attracted to them are gay or bi (unless they guy is actually bisexual). Either you see trans women as real women or you don't.

@@gabriellacardosopaiva417 I don't buy it. I mean, maybe but for me it mostly seems like he has some se*ual trauma especially around male bodies because of his dad's tapes. He never seems interested in men but he seems awful lot uncomfortable with them. I think he internalized the mindset of his dad and his scenes in the young age, and now adopted a mindset of "dominate or be dominated at all cost". Which is why he is aggresive to people so often, uses everything he has to have power over them. It's pretty clear he's terrified of his dad/his dad dominating him, which is why he despises him. Would also explain why he's so obsessed with femininity - it's non threatening to him on the surface. Tldr: more than him being closeted, I think it's him being uncomfortable with men due to trauma.

You are heterosexual if you only have sex with the opposite sex and trans people are not the opposite sex they are a different variation in sexual orientation and identity. Nate is not heterosexual.

I don't think the call for happy gay stories is about the removal of conflict. Just the mean-spirited, toxic conflicts and overdone tropes. I grew up seeing gay people in toxic relationship, being abused, sick, dying etc. with very little counterpoints. Those happier and diverse stories definitely serve a purpose too.

@stop Igbt ...k Is this how you act to recieve attention on the internet? You should probably put down the phone if so.

​@@chip672 who are you replying too..

@Ham Y there was a commenter that was basically saying some homophobic nonsense. There comment was deleted, so it probably looks ridiculous

Agree, and is usually funny to me seeing gay characters trying too hard to come across as straight "Can we talk about the giant elephant in the room?" "Your sexuality?"

I think Billy Hargrove was a good example of someone lashing out due to his own abuse and insecurity though its not a closet gay bully trope. But it was quiet similar to this.

Well the bullies are the ones that are accepted and popular lol 🤣

Yeah but that's different;your life and livelihood depends on being closeted and I'm assuming hopefully you're not toxic nor a bully in any way.

Yes to all lf this! I at first assumed that he is bi, because Maddie confronts him about that, because lf the dpics, but not because of his attraction for Jules. Wasn't therr also a scene in season 1 where he was watching other guys run a marathon? I thought it was generally implied that he had na interest in men, but I could have just misunderstood that because I'm generally new to understand and be considerate towards trans people...this type of stuff fliws straight over my head.

I don't watch the show but what's they're reason to hate a trans character that's on the receiving end of bullying?

@@nunyabiznes33 Jules in the show isn't on the recieving end of bullying at least not outside from the first time she is confronted about it at the party (like the video above), but she is the protagonists love interest, and because the show is narrated by the protagonist we sympathise with her point of view. Jules' initial behaviour is misleading because the protagonist is head over heels about Jules, while Jules really is still hung up on a guy and then also after getting intimate with the protagonist sleeps with another girl, and in the second season they're officially a couple, but then Jules cheats on the protagonist. She is disliked for her personality, not for her gender.

@@corneliahanimann2173 And by protagonist, do you mean Nate or some other guy?

@@nunyabiznes33 I mean Rue, the girl that has her issues wirh drug addiction. That drug addiction part is kinda important because Rue treats Jules like a replacement drug because she gets her euphoria from loving Jules now, and that is also a problem, because Jules realises that Rue only stays clean because of Jules and Jules hesitates to get serious with Rue because she knows that Rue has developed a codependent relationship with Jules.