Solid info. Reston talks about shooting no faster than .25 splits as it's the avg speed that people can process information. This really drove the point home when he talked about punching a dude's lights out and his follow up shot missed because it went where the dudes head was. This is what he's talking about in his classes when he says "meat moves when you shoot it".
The Whole reason I’ve got into competition is so that I can become a better shooter in the event a bad situation presents itself. This video has completely opened my eyes to the importance of true tactical training and not just shooting gaming style. Very well said Chuck, I am very grateful for you and your messages thank you.
I don’t believe that there is a more entertaining source of information and experience in lethality than Chuck P. From P&S to your channel here, and everything in between, your content is the best. Keep it up. The world needs this.
There couldn't be a better explanation of why it's important to understand how competition can help OR HURT IF you don't think through what the difference is between training tactically and shooting competitively. There is a difference. However, what Chuck says - without saying it - and I HOPE people picked up on is NOT that competition is bad for the tactical shooter...he's very eloquently saying, you need to know the difference and apply the difference appropriately -AND IF YOU CAN'T, then understand why. For all you "TACTICAL" only shooters, don't misconstrue that Chuck is telling you that competition is bad...
Jose Gordon I agree 100%. This is about proper application of proper skills given specific contexts. That being said, I’m glad you popped in here as well. Chuck alone is hard to argue or disagree with, but your combined experiences aligning on this specific topic definitely lends credence to the points. Thank you both for your time and experience.
Brother, I used to be EXCEPTIONAL with a firearm, I've licked Rob Latham once when he was having a bad day. Now I'm older, I'm retired, I don't have the drive I used to have and lost some of the motivation to maintain such high standard or performance, but that's changing as I realize I've accepted mediocrity AND if I have true heart burn about something as arbitrary as a time on a draw, I better be able to beat that time before I talk shit. My goal is to shoot 4 times a week when I'm not on the road and shoot 5,000 rounds a month for the next 3 months until I go into treatment this summer. Getting back into competition is part of that overall strategy to regain the human performance that I used to enjoy. I will start going back to my weekly club matches and try and hit a weekend match once a month. Unfortunately weekends are my student training times for open enrollment so they are more scarce than my week day evening club match. We will see how it goes. I know the magic happens on the fault line, but I get frustrated with people who possess uncontrollable raw talent. I'm tired of spending every class rewiring dudes that are mimicking ACTUAL performance and completely checking out.
Shooting at a speed that you cant actually shoot at. If you can't align your sights and discharge the weapon to make bullets land where you want them in the arbitrary time standard that you are trying to beat, you instead choose to shoot that time standard anyway and hope that your rounds land cloae enough to what you want to hit. Usually it equates to a transition from aimed fire to point shooting and the firer may or may not even realize that they have removed themselves from the loop. Example @10 yards: "Draw and give me a single shot in the black of that B8. Anything in the white and you owe your classmates a 12pack. No time limit". *POW* "1.06 seconds and your round landed in the 7 ring"...... WHAT THE FUCK?????
If you focus on trying to run stages "clean" (all Alphas), and drop your times without sacrificing your accuracy, competing will be a GREAT experience for you!
Presscheck Consulting that’s a good point. I competed twice last year. I shanked one classifier shot and made it up and everyone said I shouldn’t have done that. I lost more points that way.
That's not what I heard. What I heard him say is take comp for what it is and know the difference between it and a real-world situation. That is the path to using it to get better beyond competition. Like Mike Pannone says, "Competition is a long drill, not a scenario. If you don't know the difference then God help you". Chuck...please let me know if I misunderstood you. Oh and the "the killed in the streets" saying is dumb. Stop saying it.
You have to know what you are doing when you are doing it. If you choose to practice for competition and ignore practicing for a fight, don't be surprised if you forget to follow through. If you shoot a match like you are in a gun fight you will probably not win. The low quality of cognitive ability that I see from the average shooter gives me pause that they can switch gears. I have students that come to my classes and without a shot timer even being present on the line are completely incapable of self regulation. They literally can't miss fast enough. The Instagram gun culture has shown them that fast=right. The average shooter who learns human effeciency is a 16 year old male handed the keys to a Ferrari. They are INCAPABLE of using the speed gained from instruction properly and slowing down to prep trigger or check in with the sights to ensure optimal shot placement. I don't blame the guy that handed them the keys. I blame the guy driving like an asshole.
Competition is a useful tool to point out glaring inefficiency in many things like footwork, movement, manipulation, etc. I use competition almost like shooting a qualification course. It's not training or practice , it is a test of training and practice. Is what I'm practicing translating to applicable skills. Chuck hit the nail on the head in that you have to be able to switch gears mentally and that is where most shooters fall short. Most LE guys I see don't spend adequate time practicing. My agency shooters 5-6 times a year. I harp that I am not going to make them gunfighters in 12 hours of training per year. It is the practice sessions where they drill the things I give them that drives the skills to the subconscious. Being able to perform menial tasks like drawing and present on target, reload, clear a malfunction, etc without conscious thought is where you can gain a lot of efficiency in performance. This clears the mind to perform tactics decisions that require conscious thought. Competition is a great mechanism to test if you are ingraining these skills to the subconscious.
Thanks for taking the time to share your hard earned knowledge. I've read a couple of studies that back up everything you said in the video. The first one tested how long it took someone to, "Stop shooting" using a light turning on and off. They found it was somewhere around .25ish seconds to actually process the light had changed and to physically stop pulling the trigger. There was a FOF scenario based study done between rookie officers and SWAT officers where they had to react to a threat and take a shot. The draw/shot times were the same between the rookies and SWAT guys, except because of their experience, the SWAT officers drew earlier in the scenario and had a higher percentage of hits. I'd say both studies really back up what you're saying about competition vs. "Da streetz" and looking fast on the insta vs. actually having the ability to draw and fire a accurate round on target.
competition is a great place to learn to draw sooner so you can aim longer and make the hits. Something that gets lost on some people warching this video.
Insight on the difference between the mindsets behind high level competition and the real world application of deadly force can only some from the rare, rare person who’s done both. Thanks for sharing 👍
Hey I'd like to thank you for this video. I never thought about why my splits were slower than others, I just assumed everyone was getting 3 sight pictures.
Over the years of shooting uspsa type stuff I was always taught that shooting "too clean" was an indicator of a need to speed up. However the idea of "calling my shots" ,esp on steel where you basically engage everything in an array with a good enough shot without stopping your travel to see if each steel fell and then reengaging the ones you missed, always felt off to me and I couldn't put my finger on it. This vid I think explains it. With all that said, is what we should be doing aiming each shot a little more and adding that millisecond of target confirmation before leaving the target while keeping the speed up everywhere else? Shit now we have to be fast AND accurate?? Rude
Awesome video. And makes me feel better about how I am doing IDPA. I basically do it just to get trigger time and practice shooting on the move, shooting with a little pressure, doing more combative type shooting. I don't rush myself and try to be the fastest or faster that than my ability to control myself and operate my gun and get good shots smoothly. I literally don't care about my score. Its just gun handling and trigger time for me. I tend to try and approach the stages how I would that situation if it was real.. as it allows with the various rules etc.
This is a very interesting subject to look at from the perspective of a near 80% USPSA shooter. For me if I am shooting a stage without being cognitively aware of sights, calling shots and targets, I am in a world of hurt, Especially when a mover of any type gets involved. Whether it's a 32 round field course, a bill drill, or a multi string classifier with different round counts or requirements, I am calling shots, correcting aim and making up shots in real time, at the same pace as my splits. Which for a long time I believed was some kind of voodoo pros did just by feeling, not truly knowing, But now I know. So I think with any reasonable amount of introspective, chakra aligning, serious talks with ourselves about the facts of shooting people instead of paper, I believe any shooter of that level is gonna be doing alright. Of course the other part of that is, Most timmies asking about going to a match aren't gonna be USPSA High A class shooters. So their processing ability is going to be vastly different. Which I'll quote you in a comment here that was posted after i started typing this comment "The low quality of cognitive ability that I see from the average shooter gives me pause that they can switch gears." I don't think the enemy is fast, or lack of follow through, or transitioning in recoil. I think the enemy is that the average tard is much tardier than anybody and especially they themselves comprehend.
I have NEVER witnessed someone shoot a 2 second bill drill and react and adjust impacts from shot to shot in real time. I have on the other hand seen shitty natual point of aim and flash sight picture result in CCCAA, but there were two MORE fucked up shots after the first one before the weapon could be reasonably shifted into the acceptable strike zone. And that's my problem is people see sub 2 second Bills on the internet and deduce that's how fast you should shoot an NSR. A Bill drill is not an NSR and people who think that you should shoot a human being as fast as you shoot a Bill, are not very good at killing people. If someone wants to shoot a game drill that more represents having to shoot a person multiple times make them turn and burn a texas star, but number the plates and force them to shoot in numerical ascending order. This will force them to move the gun based upon visual input and not just hold on for dear life. It will also not allow them to game plate order to minimize movement spin. THAT level of shooting ability is what you need to ensure that you're going to explode the human heart and not simply poke six holes in their lungs in under two seconds.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 The first string of the new abbreviated IDPA classifier is 5 rounds onto the 8 inch circle from 10 yards, i run that string in about 2.25 seconds, and i am consciously placing the gun back into the center of the circle, I'm not running it like a bill drill, one sight picture, six trigger pulls and hope. The Moving target that I most see the separation between the high ability shooters and the derps going through the motions is the Drop Turner. The high level guys are able to aim, fire two individually aimed A zone hits, be consciously aware of Where those 2 shots went, and have time to make them up if necessary, all on a target that is exposed for well under a second. Where as inexperienced guys fire two rounds and Hope. As far as the texas star with numbered plates, Im making a large cardboard dice right now to combine the vogel dice drill with your numbered texas star concept. Ill hopefully be able to get that on video tomorrow.
@@presscheckconsulting3449, that is a very important point you make Chuck, regarding a Bill Drill not being the same as an NSR. I use the Bill Drill as a diagnostics drill primarily, to observe draw mechanics, recoil management (ie grip), trigger control and sight picture. It is not a "how to shoot a bad guy" drill. And I completely agree, you cannot adjust a sub 2 second bill drill in real time. For me, getting into competition was a reality check with regards to my pistol shooting mechanics, and has been a huge benefit. That said, I also have enough experience from the tactical side of the house that I would never engage in urban combat/room clearing thinking it was a IPSC stage. And that goes to the point you make about understanding the difference in application between the two worlds. That is one of the things I react to when I see non-mil dudes harp on the shooting ability of soldiers - sure, you can out shoot them, but you don't know all the individual and collective tasks that they are trained on, nor do you have the tactical aptitude that they possess.
I WANT to have a Master or A shooter in my classes, that way I don't have to waste time talking about dumb shit. We can jump right in to an indepth discussion and shoot some drills that highlight what they should do with all their amazing talent to kill someone with their firearm. THAT'S a perfect range session for me.
I'm not even a mike into this video and Uncle Chucky is going all Reading Rainbow on how decapitation by ammunition works mechanically and physiologically. This and Jose Gordon chiming in as well in the above comments is just.... WOW. Please, both of you, continue to share these golden knowledge bombs you've been clearly building in an intellectual arms race between your bad selves.
These shorter videos - AFAICT - are coming from his Patreon Q&A sessions, which can go pretty long and he often goes really in-depth on certain topics. Not sure this was one of them, but if you throw some money his way and hang out with the rest of us during those Q&A's you'll definitely get a shitload of this sort of stuff in return. Worth every penny I throw at him, stripper-like. #toopoorforthewashingtons
Ah, shit. Maybe shoot Chuck a Patreon message? Maybe he's already doing it, but if not it would be cool if he could post the full-length Q&A's on Patreon that only members can see - I don't think I've ever gotten to see a full Q&A myself, and they are always great, so I'd really like that as well. (...and I'm only asking you to ask him because, today at least, I don't have the time to do so. And I'm kinda lazy. ;P )
The only time I compete is for fun...Period..I dont want that muscle memory and nueropathways to even start building for the reason you just stated..Purely comp guys dont get that so you gotta just let that ego go of wanting to stomp a mud hole in their ass and remember what got you to the party in the first place. Take what applies and can make your job better but be concious of what would hurt your foundation...You articulate that thought well in ways I never could
Slow is just slow. If you need .4 seconds to ensure you wont miss and you apply it after a 1.3 second draw, you are breaking the shot in 1.7 seconds. If you let a gamer sort out your draw and you get that blaster out and presented in .7 seconds, you are breaking the shot in 1.1 seconds. Drawing the gun slow, accomplishes nothing, so I don't want my comment of "shooting fast is counter productive" to be taken out of context.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 For sure. I definitley get what you mean by taking what will help and what doesnt apply to the job and is purely for gaming the shit out of the game
Kyle Defoor said there's nothing wrong with competition, there's something wrong with *you* if you can't tell the difference between a gunfight and a pistol match.
All great points, but the vast majority of firearm users (mil, LEO, and/or CCW) are not being hampered because they're spending too much time getting too good at improving their match scores. This applies to already-skilled tactically minded shooters (such as SGM(R) Pressburg's students) that are a second-ish off pace on a speed shoot or drill compared to a gamer. It does not apply to folks that can't keep up with Level 2 (C class, Sharpshooter, etc.) participants "because tactical."
A question for the sake of qualification on assessment/ follow through with multiple targets for self defense: are there ever times where this assessment is more compressed or where you assess multiple targets at once? To clarify what I mean, I watched some of Tu Lam's stuff ( Ronin tactics) on how to drive a gun, and he basically says that with multiple threats you'd be giving everyone a first serving before anyone gets seconds. He described basically sweeping the gun from threat to threat the way you said a target shooter would, but then he said you'd basically assess from there to see where you'll be following up on dudes.
One of the few times I can remember this actually working out was when I worked the body on an exercise from close range, ONLY because I knew what the reaction of the role player was going to be ahead of time. Dude got burned down from like 3 meters away for half a mag.... I may or may not have said "sorry dude, my bad for the non safety kill" and got a "no problem" as I walked over his body.
Yes! But someone who paid a stupid amount if money to take the Jeff Gordon driving experience drives their rental car to the airport to fly home like a fucking asshole.
Scott and some of the other mods on P&S would disagree. But something just tells me that you perform what you practice. I had a buddy that shot competition for a while and when he went back to just doing defensive range work, he found himself unloading and showing clear without even realizing it. Nothing wrong with properly executed competition I think though.
Lol, I struggle with the cognition part of competition period. A lot of goofiness that doesn't make sense (target A isn't closest, why am I shooting him first?), plus my own level of mental suck.
This might be too black and white, but you're basicly saying that in combat you would make sure the first one is dead before you move to the second one? Because Tu Lam/Ronin Tactics recently released a video where he said the opposite. First shoot everyone and then go back a second time to finish it.
No, I'm saying that every new shooter is taught to prepare to have to shoot again and for every shot you should get two sight pictures. This is marksmanship 101. Tu Lam was taught this. IF he chose to move to a different threat it was probably after his weapon settled even for a faction of a second. All rapid fire is based upon this principle. The high cognative level of competitive shooters (and stage planning and walk through) allow them to decide to force the gun off target and to another target before hand. There is a mental decision ahead of time to fire a pair and move on. The argument could be made that Tu broke the natural recoil impulse and forced the weapon to another target before letting it settle at all AND that he made that decision in real time. Frankly when we are talking about muzzle movements that are happening in tenths or hundreths of a second I doubt that he has the recall to say "on this day in this engagement I know with 100% certainty that I refused to allow my EO tech reticle to go back to the enemy's chest after my second shot and instead rode the recoil impulse to the next threat in the room". We are talking about the difference between a .25 and a .35 target to target transition in the middle of a life or death fight. Tu saying "everyone gets some before anyone gets seconds" is not the same as me saying "two shots, three sight pictures" People are splitting hairs about one example that a national champion shooter used to show me that training scars from traditional combat shooting techniques were slowing me down in my attempts to shoot a drill at the same cadence as professional competitors.
I don't believe in those kinds of arguments though and think that IS an example of why gamers are so touchy about any criticism from the "tactical community". My warning in this video is about the possible pitfalls of pushing speed without the wisdom of self regulation and it's because I've seen it. I see it every single course from a variety of student backgrounds, but recently from those that want to match times but have not put in the necessary work to accurately shoot at those times. Making strawman arguments that a competitor is going to die waiting on a buzzer is counter productive when trying to have an open dialogue.
I have to fundamentally disagree with your diagnosis of how competitive shooting works. At about 3:10 you say to cut the second shot loose in the C zone and not let your sights settle. I’m working toward Master in Limited and Carry Optics. If you don’t watch your sights and send both shots through the A, you’ll never score enough points to keep up. In fact, the thing that got me out of B class was learning that the guys at the very top are seeing their sights and calling their shots on every target. You can’t gain enough speed to bump your HF up to relevant levels just by shooting a fast pair. Seeing fast and making decisions fast is what will move you up the scoreboard.
I was ABSOLUTELY reciting as close as I could articulate Jerry Miculek's explaination to ME during personal shooting instruction about what he is seeing and how he plans an el pres stage. He is commanding the gun go off as he processes the sights crossing the A line factoring in his own delay on human reaction time to time the detonation of the pistol inside of the A-Zone. He manages recoil commanding the second shot as muzzle again descends back towards A and then departs the target as the second shos's recoil takes him up and out of the A with no percievable attempt to settle the gun for follow through. I NEVER said that the shooter consciously accepts C zone hits for speed, the point of the argument is that there is a difference in actual TIME to take a shot between one that was meant to be an Alpha and got away from you just outside the A zone and breaking a shot to ensure with all certainty that it WILL not leave an A zone. I also teach actual physiologically acceptable fight stopping kill zones in the chest. Heart counts, lungs, liver, spleen, etc do not for the purpose of stopping threat behavior. Lethality later on is of no consequeance. So the chest A-zone is now compressed into an area slightly larger than a head A box. Taking a shooter used to centering up on an Azone and asking them to shoot at these neccessary smaller strike zones proves to be a hard task for the average shooter. For advanced shooters no problem. They take the time they need and no more. People still trying to get their feet under them in terms of human performance struggle significatly and I can't figure out why the competition community see's this reality as an afront to them. Shooters coming from tactical timmy seem to exhibit the SAME levels of poor decision making. The only difference is that Timmy students didn't have above average performers showing them super human feats of speed that the student attempted to emulate without consequence.
The first five minutes or so of the video sound like you’re saying that competition has no emphasis on accuracy or vision or thinking. I don’t think that’s what you’re driving at, but that’s what it sounds like. I think that’s why you’re seeing some hostility from us gamers. If I was still in the Army, I would motivate my troops to shoot IPSC or uspsa with me. Competition is a test of your technical skills, and it’s tough to beat for the cost and time investment. Edit: At 6:00 you say you have to throw everything “real world “ out the window to compete. This is essentially “killed in the streets!” If you can explain why being able to draw, acquire sights, reload, fix malfs , and transition targets quickly is bad, I’ll listen. All the gains I’ve made with my racing rigs has translated directly to my carry rig. I get that there are game rules that don’t translate to real world, but the mechanics of shooting are the mechanics of shooting-which is all competition tests.
The question was asked of me in a live Q&A what pitfalls if any (paraphrasing) could competing have for an average shooter. I absolutely think that outrunning your headlights and emulating false Gods of speed without an understanding of what they are doing is detrimental. It's all the Masters and high A's that want to get butthurt about my comments not understanding that I'm talking to the potential B/C shooter. If a master was coaching a B/C shooter they would tell them "Don't think I'm just pointing the gun and letting them fly, I am absolutely tracking my sights in recoil and calling my shots" My warning to people learning to shoot better is learn to place bullets where you want them on demand FIRST and then learn to do everything SOONER. There is NO PLACE to learn SOONER more effectively than the competition shooting community.
“You have to fundamentally deconstruct everything that would keep you out of jail and alive in a real gunfight.” You understand that’s a pretty scathing indictment of competition, and also false, right? You also throw “no follow through and no shot accountability” out there. That’s also demonstrably false. I invite you to shoot any stage with penalty targets with “no accountability” and report how that works out for you.
I completely agree with your response. I would have chosen my words more carefully if I was preparing my comments in advance for the internet at large. I was originally spreaking to about 50 people live and was pretty fired up about the complete lack of accountability that I was seeing from the student base and the general misconception that the speed drills they were trying to emulate were what "right looks like". This is all about frame of reference. I came off sounding too negative and for that I apologize. I see the effects of average shooters daily and it's pathetic. Competition didn't make them that way. Watching humans perform exceptionally and wanting to mimic cadence without putting in the work made them that way.
I spar at 50-60% every week. Boxing,kickboxing and MMA we rotate. Every once in a while we go 80% or so. I’m not gonna forget to go 100 on dude when it counts. Never make excuses, just get smarter. Shooting is shooting and fighting is fighting. The better you are. The better you are. Tactical guys I always have one question. How good is your hand to hand. If you make excuses about competition I willing to bet you’re making excuses about other shit.
SmElly . I meant to write this under another comment. I understand completely what chucks saying. I just don’t totally agree. Haven’t been in as much shit as chuck but I could tell you a few stories. People seem to be writing a backdoor escape clause for their ego using tactics as why they don’t “try hard” at competition. I compete from concealment but I still plan to be a fuckin GM and I will be. If you toe the TT -GF line I personally think you’ll be fine. Just don’t unload and show clear unless fucking told to. Taught a performance AIWB class to a few gamers and yeah they unload and show clear after a drill I about shit. I know Chuck shoots at a high level but a lot of guys really don’t and then they hide behind tactical shit. I just think “hey I’m telling you to shoot those pieces of fuckin cardboard fast, just do it”. Either stop thinking so much or start thinking more . Whichever let’s your brain differentiate. Competition has saved my life several times.
