Come Follow Me - Alma 30-31: Christ & Anti-Christ 

So, if there were no sin, there would be no need for Atonement, which means that the need for Atonement is necessitated and made active by sin, so why do we preach that we come unto Christ by obedience. It seems that Obedience (or the absence of sin) would negate the need for the Atonement.

Yes very good point for those that have fallen 😢

​@@tsmithson1Perfect obedience WOULD negate the need for an Atonement. How is that going for you so far? Yeah, not so well for me, either.

And their prayer is often a close cousin to prayers I have heard given in LDS settings. I think the the story of the Zoramites, similar to the Pharisees of Jesus' time, serve as more than props to be made fun of and suggest we are miles away from them. They are the cautionary tales of how ALL human interactions tend to devolve. Our LDS culture has a lot of corollaries to those ancient stories. Let's not be to quick to simply pat ourselves on the back for us not being like them.

@@tsmithson1 oh I agree with you 100%!

@@generalpatton838 natural selection is not a doctrine, it's a description of how species evolve over time. There's nothing evil about it, and it's extremely well-supported by research and most of our prophets and apostles, if not all.

@@NicolasConnault wasn't Charles Darwin named as an anti-Christ by past prophets?

@@generalpatton838 not officially, and definitely not by most. The church's official position on evolution has always been neutral. This is very clearly documented.

@@NicolasConnault disagree

@@generalpatton838 what specifically do you disagree with, and why?

I think that Brother Halverson has the same kind of "pride" as Ammon did in Alma 26. He, as do other members of the Faith Matters family, does not "boast in [his] own strength nor in [his] own wisdom, but behold. . . [he] will rejoice in [his] God."

I agree!

I totally get this! Such an interactive way to study, even on my own!!

yes im talking to myself again. but I was told a few times many years ago. its after someone fool's me one, two, and on the 3rd is shame on (myself)/(yourself)

Honest answers to those questions won't help the seeker if they haven't put any thought into them. If they have, it's a different matter.

@@MsCDorsey Fair enough and I agree with your comment, however, for a religious tradition whose members have put about as much thought into what they believe as to what they don't believe, I would err on the side of entertaining their questions as legitimate. When you teach 6 year olds to go to the pulpit and rattle off a litany of "I know" statements, which there is no way they are doing anything other than borrowing those beliefs, I think it's understandable why so many today, with ease of information, now find themselves entertaining questions they have been told to ask. After all, the culture largely rewards the those willing to speak the words they have been told to say.

@@MsCDorsey When someone grows up hearing the 1838 version of the "First Vision" and then finds out there are 3 other versions, all of which are earlier, with 1838 being the version farthest away from the date of said vision, I think it's fair to have an honest conversation. Additionally, there are literally ZERO accounts of Josephs first vision or any record of it before 1832, which is 2 years after the church was organized. The 1832 version says he saw 1 being, and only the 1838 says he saw 2 beings. I can accept that Joseph had a real experience with God, but as to the facts of that incident, they appear to be up for serious debate. This is just one among many, many serious historical issues the church has with its truth claims. Does it change that its the place I have chosen to experience God? No! And then the church asks all its members to kneel down and ask God essentially, which one of the 4 versions of Josephs "First Vision" are correct. I'm not sure the purpose of spiritual experience is to testify of disparate facts. I'm not sure that factual information has much at all to do with experiencing God, and attempting to make it about facts only complicates the matter.