I have no trouble with someone who actually lives on a commune and calls themselves a communist. But I have a huge problem with someone who calls themselves a communist, has zero intention of living in a commune and wants to force people to live in a communist society.
@btc btc I am against forcing others to do what someone else wants them to do. If someone has extreme views and doesnt bother anyone then leave thme alone.
Calling yourself a communist is still a problem, the ideology is fundamentally wrong on so many levels. A lot of the authoritarian communists do want to live in a commune but they have no idea how to run one and end up causing damage, see Chaz as an example.
@@Свободадляроссии Yes. But there are many religions with which I disagree fundamentally but I do not go in and protest them during their ceremonies. Communism will lose influence in America once Cuba is overthrown. Be patient. Wait them out.
You forgot one. And you haven't got it quite right.. Gestapo knock on your door: "We're here to hurt you, to help our Race". OVRA (Italian secret police): "We're here to hurt you, to help all of us." KGB knock on your door: "We're here to hurt you, to help all of us" These are collectivist ideologies. It is about the sacrifice of individuals for the group good. What Ayn Rand referred to as the individual 'immolating himself' for the state. Mussolini uttered the core formulation that actually fits both systems: "Everything Within the State, Nothing Against the State, Nothing Outside the State" - Benito Mussolini This is considered a key fascist formulation.. but it is really just a distillation of the idea behind Totalitarian style governing. The government controls EVERYTHING. To educated observers: I'm being intentionally narrow here. KGB is the secret police associated with the USSR.. but other arms similar to them existed in a lot of the satellite states.. and totalitarian governments outside the USSR, 1930s-1940s Germany and all other totalitarian governments in the world have essentially the same types of structures, just with different names.
That funded and supported Nazi ideology. Both Kalergi and Hitler were Austrian and Kalergi’s Plan created the Nazi reaction... Read Kalergi’s “Practical Idealism” and what the last 100 year implementation is leading to. There happens to be an acolyte of Kalergi who will explain via RU-vid the current status of the plan. Do you have the courage to follow the truth? Why have we never heard of Kalergi, one of the most important men of the 20th century?
Its about exactly what has been done in US for century but less sophisticated. Funny how US is hellbent on fighting communism otherwise it would have to take a hard look on itself. What is funny is no big country has actual direct democracy. All those so called democracies are some form of oligarchy usually.
He has to avoid it cuz he knows that zionist sponsored stalin to kill real russians so that convo by the jews will always be avoided. Zionist jews created and sponsored Bolshevic revolution
eat a bunch of lsd and get manipulated endlessly by all ideologies, because everything *could be true*. It's not idea's that lead to atrocity, it's human nature- base level stuff.
Exactly! It’s amazing to watch a grown man argue like an adolescent, preening and waving his index finger around; and anyway his premise is ridiculous. You could make the same weak argument about every religious icon. Oh-look-at-all-the-bad-things-that-happened-so-they-must-have-been-evil. Or maybe we condemn Adam Smith because there were no labor protections for children in industrial England! It could go on and on. Communism was perhaps a flawed idea because of human nature, while Naziism was explicitly nihilistic and hateful. Apples and oranges.
@@sophiesdad1200 Absolutely, his conflation of such distinct idea's really undermines his credibility on the subject. If he really wanted to make a case for Libertarian Capitalism, he should apply for an Amazon Warehouse position and film a documentary to explore the utopian future we could all enjoy under Ayn Rand's Libertarianism.
@@sophiesdad1200 Communism has killed far more people than the Nazi's did. Nazi's did a lot of horrible things, but apples and oranges, right? Communism is purely evil. Also, Hitler was a socialist.
@@Francis_Castiglione Apples and oranges is right. Christianity, the Crusades, Islam, laissez faire capitalism, etc. You can make that argument about any big idea. Even deism had atrocities under Robespierre! Maybe we should condemn that ideology as well, huh? Also, no offense, pal, but believing in Ayn Rand is sillier than waiting up for Santa Claus. And referring to Hitler as a socialist removes the spurious credibility of anything you said earlier. Anyone with a brain knows that the Nazis only referred to themselves as national “socialists” because they were trying to triangulate the Left in post-war Germany. Communists and Nazis were competing for the same demographic, so it’s simple marketing. Duh. Kind of like the way you call yourself “Communism Kills,” only more sophisticated and effective (though evil). Anyway, I prefer arguing with honest people. You go your way; I’ll go mine.I wish you well.
@@Francis_Castiglione wrong. The dictators killed those people. They weren't communist countries at all. Power corrups and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Communism has always been victim to this, except in Vietnam (that I have seen). Where the communist party rule the one party state and people are happy, patriotic and far more support a free market system than in the US. It is a successful democracy and should be a model to other countries. But clowns like to go bananas every time the C word comes up.
@@xenophon5159 only to a certain point. You can have the best genetics in the world, but if chow down on that shit everyday eventually your arteries will clog up.
It is interesting at the end he mentions Richard Wolff and democratic work places, immediately disregards it, then goes on to talk about how remarkable the development of political democracy was. Is his point that we are so lucky to have political democracy that pushing for economic democracy would be pushing our luck?
Lex, 1942, the occupied city of Eysk. Nazis gased to death 214 mentally or physically disabled children aged between 4 and 17 years who lived in the local orphanage. That orphanage was evacuated by the Soviets from the city of Simferopol which had been lost previously. Could you feel the difference between Nazies and communists?
You're asking for a Randian to care about the mass killing of mentally and physically disabled children and adults? An actual high priest of the evangelical church of Ayn Rand?
Here’s the thing with this debate: it’s about investigating totalitarianism. Communism has run far longer in power for a start. Fascism gave us the Holocaust but how many high schoolers know about the Holodamor? Fascism is a type of socialism anyway that differs only in their economic organization and myth preference. .
Fascism didnt give us the Holocaust, Mousollini succumbed to the race theory just prior to WW2, while he himself had a Jewish lover - Margarita Zarfati... Other than that, i agree that both systems are collectivist, centralized and totalitarian regimes...
As someone who is from Russia former Soviet Union I wish The west would teach Stalinism and Communism to the kids in history class and talk about what actually happens to people during those times.
@Spalien Acecraft why would they correlate wanting for a actual form of marxist analysis (that is a functioning theory in itself expanded upon lenin and marxs understanding of class relations and in itself the functional capacity of proletarian statehood) with what the west would choose to focus on in education in their own education systems. Do you not understand what stalinism is or how dialectical materialism functions? Like you critique a theory as being "bad" but lack the context to directly address the function of material reality of said theory in practice. You don't understand communism because you haven't spent the time to understand its function. That is text book reactionary thinking.
I don't think people in the West (green haired university students that embarrassingly call themselves Communists) even know what the Cheka or NKVD are. These two groups alone (secret police) far surpass any other regime for complete psychopathic blood lust.
Lex, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this is easily one of your best interviews ever. And that's bold of me to say, because you've had a LOT of great interviews. Lex, we need more people like you in this world. Keep doing what you're doing bro!
How about challenging the numbers of these 100 million the two sources are the black book of communism which includes nazi soldiers killed and russian soldiers that died fighting said nazis. Do you think that's the "evils of communism", not to mention the unsubstantiated claims in the book with no historic or evidentiary backing such as skull pits, death records, etc etc. Also the gulag archipelago which is a complete fabrication by the author.
@@Henrikko123 I would say that's extremely simplified but according to your very simplified definition, I would say yes but nominally so. Private property in this country has been and is being infringed upon by the state all the time. If the government gets to decide without your approval how much of your income they can take and when they take it then how can you say that you really own your income? Self ownership is the basis of private property yet I can't decide to voluntarily purchase a drug like cocaine or acid etc etc and have this in my possession without risk of being taken by the state and being forced to wait in their facilities and then pay my legal fees and fines and to "society". Dispensaries cannot sell to people who have reached their two week limit dictated by the state. Eminent domain is one of the most horrendous violations of private property rights. We're definitely moving away from the direction of laissez-faire (have been for years).
@@foshizzlfizzl If you are correct about him being brainwashed that then that is exactly why people need to hear it. So they can recognize the brainwash as you see it, assuming he is brainwashed. Censoring people is a bad road to travel down
There are differences to people who are autistic and live in their heads, to people who live in the real world and measure consequences/things that matter, the two are alike in all the ways that matter; causing widespread misery and suffering. I don't need to read piles of Marxist literature like you to "understand" it. Get out of your mind and examine the real world outcomes. And to say they have no idea when fascism has roots in marxism shows that you actually have no idea. But you'll never change and i have no idea why I waste my time anymore. Habit, I guess.
When Michael realized Yaron was just going to interrupt he stopped trying to make points (for a few minutes) to make jokes and its such a better way than butting heads. Yet they still have a conversation not an argument. Lex seems to be a master Craftsman when it comes to crafting these conversations. Anyone ever seen him get bent out of shape with a guest yet? Not that hes immune to it but I bet he meditates lol
@@drstrangelove09 Yaron wouldn't even have come to Israel if his parents weren't Socialists. He probably wouldn't even be alive if the Soviets didn't crush the Nazis.
@@cshartley101 He was a journalist, director and theorist too. The man also used extremist gang violence to portray himself as mild and the only possible person able to hold the radical fringes of the party (while controlling them). The Italian (theory of tension) was also used in the Cold War, with dubious funding going to both far left and far right terrorrism and Italy remaining solidly at the US's side with a centrist, pro-Church government for decades.
@@gs7828:: Italy didn't have much of a choice as the United States destroyed all Progressive/Communist/Socialist Movements in Italy. They supported "former" Fascists in the Italian government ; just as they supported "former" NZIS in positions of power in Germany after the War. The United States has been "advising" Italy for many, many decades. "Pro-Church" ? _YIKES ❗️_
Everytime someone brings up musolini I burst into laughter. That man, his leadership and Italy during fascism were so terrible in every field possible: the military was so bad, unsuccessful and incompetent (trash navy, they made trashiest tanks that the world has ever seen, italian military failed at every task possible...), the idea of restoring the Roman empire could only be done in a dream, the country was in a stagnation...
What? If you dont know it then how dare you to oppose it. Basically that's what the entire conversation bases on, both of them dont know anything about communism yet they still talk about it as if they have read every scientific book about communism that have been written
@@Failzz8 if he doesn't know what stalinism is then he doesn't know what communism is. Have you ever heard the phrase "throw the baby out with the bathwater"
I love this. It was (and still is) always hard to wrap my mind around what fascism and communism actually mean and how they grow, outside of wikipedia definitions. Great content, subscribed!
@@PS987654321PS I admit I don't know how to interpret your comment. Anyway, in case it wasn't clear, my previous one was missing the (I thought plainly obvious) /s at the end.
@@vladmitrache6373 These reduce to the same flawed institutional design and will repeat the same history. Each call for misappropriation of democracy as an authoritarian state device. The extent and nuance of such a flaw is besides the point. Human rights abrogation is readily predictable from these groups and not avoidable by these groups. Leftist reject a blanket judgment of their common flaws for lack of applying orthodox philosophy concerning social science and political science. This presents another and dynamic flaw in socialist ideation - it has been outside of the mainstream for 200 years and crucially during the scientific revolution in acadamia.
Until men with power are willing to humble their egos and cease worshiping at the shrine of the self by dropping the powers they wield over large groups of others, powerful men will continue to degrade the others and ultimately themselves through persistent historical violence. Human beings are not an isolated phenomenon from the world around us. Our existence is systemic.
@@JimmytheDoctor I don't see the same energy for Jacobins or the USA empire which is the worst thing in human history.Fascism is the corporate state that protect the bourgeoisie .Guys like Stalin and Jacobins are the analogy of ancient tyranny.Aristocracy and tyranny wasn't the same.Tyranny was more "people-friendly".One embargo from China to USA and will become a nightmare with civil war,fascist state,etc.Imagine a poor Soviet Union to has all the planet against them(not only embargo but also the threat of war) it's easy a situation like this to born a phenomeno like Stalinism or Jacobinism.Trotsky has explain it in his work.There are not all in the intellectual and moral level of Lenin or Trotsky to handle a situation like this.Cuba has make a good job under so much pressure, but the revolution must be global there is no other way.
@@michaelanderson2166sure. Who was his teacher? And the teacher of that person? You really think it was invented recently? Really think the idea has not changed a bit from teacher to the next teacher?
A super important conversation about something that is rarely talked about. No drama or exploding emotions just matter of fact. That was really really good ! Thank you so much !
It reminded me of the lively debates of the 60’s and 70’s that we’re now lucky enough to have access to on RU-vid. Where sparks may fly, but the focus remains on topic, allowing for a healthy, lively discourse and exchange of ideas. Would love to see more eps where Lex acts as the moderator of two debating guests, it’s certainly a rare skill set he’s proven he possesses in this video. Edit: clarification
This is the kind of discussion that happens when you have one person in the room with views based upon a very superficial knowledge of something, and won't learn enough about the topic to warrant changing them. Equating Communism and Fascism with each other is reductive, and so is basing views of abstract concepts on real events which are basically determined by other factors. You can't really judge political ideologies using historical events because historical events are determined by factors far more powerful then ideologies. Ideologies are literally just ideas, and often powerless in the face of reality. I don't think there has been a single form of government in the whole of human history which has been inspired by an ideology which has ever stuck to that ideology in the face of real world circumstances. When you criticize historical figures like Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, etc. you are criticizing their actions, and not abstract philosophies which they are linked to because those ideologies almost always evaporate when faced with having to make decisions which in the end benefit the decision maker over the ideology they aspire to.
The problem is when the struggle between the communist/fascist ideologies and reality begin they both leave similar results which is death in the millions compared to any other ideological/philosophical clash with reality. That’s what they meant. No matter how you twist communism or facism. There’s only one thing awaiting everyone and that’s a genocide nothing less!
What I got from this was that Fascism is "positive thinking" as a governing ideology. That makes some motivational posters much more sinister than I remember them.
@@jamiedelorenzo5220 Communism is based on a perceived power imbalance between workers and employers and is attempting to address it. Fascism is based on the will to power philosophy, which is more or less "if you can imagine it, it will bend to your will", which encourages positive delusional thinking and behavior.
@@jamiedelorenzo5220I think your issue is me only making fun of Fascism. So here's this: Communism is tall-poppy syndrome, if someone grows too tall, they chop their head off in the name of equality, but when nobody's tall enough to get the food out of the pantry, everyone starves. I hold no loyalty to any ideology other than "funny", everything is a target of ridicule for me.
@@jamiedelorenzo5220 It'd be redundant because we already have a name for modern Communists, SJWs. They're known for doing the same things and even using terms from the Soviet Union like the term "politically incorrect", and they embrace it. Like if I poke fun of them for being a commie, they'd just say "yes, and what's your point?".
Btw, parents of mr. Brook may have afforded to take him to speech therapist in his childhood under communism... But it clearly did not happen as we all unfortunately hear.
...there is nothing to learn from Yaron Brook other than 'how being opinionated to this extent makes one wrong about just about everything ' ...and even when Brook is right he is right for the wrong reasons.
COMUNISM IS ON THE LEFT... SOCIALISM IS ON THE RIGHT. ACCORDING TO KARL MARX BACK IN THE 1900s. THESE ARE ONLY THE TWO CHOICES.... AND THEY ARE ONLY THE IDEAS of the LEFT in the USA. BOTH ARE BIG Government like PLANTATION STYLE GOVERMENTS Where PEOPLE ARE LIKE COWS... THE MORE YOU HAVE THE MORE MONEY YOU AS A GOVERNMENT CAN AQUIRE AND TAX. like prostitution of children and women... you can make lots more money when you have lots more of your undocumented workers. BUT... there are more forms of government then just COMMUNISM and SOCIALISM and DEMOCRACIES... WHO USUALLY END UP EITHER SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST. FACISM is a tool that a government uses... it is not a form of government. FASCISM is undercuting all of the news and media and tv channels to only allow your scripted media like cnn msnbc abc fox tyt and vox do. only they control what is allowed on tv and its only ideas about how great socialist are and big government democract ideas who own the ideas and hearts of people by putting them in welfare and slave buckets. FASCISt ideas and people who support fascism dont see they are the fascist because they are to big and or control all of the media and quiet the religoius people and freedom to choose a god. IN most cases Fascism is found in comunist democrats or socialist governments... because they use their power to ensure no one else has a voice. DEMOCRATS are the FASCISt of today who are trying to inch the usa into SOCIALIST ideas and Grandure of owning mexico and canada and their people. they use the usas good will and manipulate their generosity and cause wars with russia to own the people of Ukraine. they practice making killer viruses like covid 19 to make billions of dollors off of the dying people who subit to their medicine thourgh phizer and moderna.
You can learn that people hope for redeeming philosophy to come from Marx even though Marx has been dead a long time and he's not coming up with anything more than the zero contributions recorded in orthodox sociology and economics.
@Kostas Kapasakis The Socratic method is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
@@jims6274 I commented elsewhere that it’s so rare to see today. The magic of RU-vid allows us access to such enlightening and lively discussions in these formats from the 60’s and 70’s, and I feel lex proved himself a worthy moderator, I hope he considers more pods in this style.
@@jims6274 :: Thank you for that explanation for modern ears. I would have lost brain cells listening to Socrates' convolutions, especially translated from Greek !
Probably the single most interesting discussion I've ever listened to! I wish i could've been a fly on the wall, but was able to chime in once in awhile
I don't know who the grandpa is but he's obviously triggered by communism far more than fascism (even though he tries to pretend he feels equally about both).
He's the head of the Ayn Rand institute, and an excruciatingly delusional ideological zealot. I've only listened to a couple of the clips from this podcast, but it's literally the first time I've ever heard anyone extract something worthwhile from Yaron Brook. I love Lex, his podcast, and Michael Malice, but the moment I saw Yaron Brook's name I instantly dismissed the podcast as listening material. While I still find Brook insufferable, these clips make me feel like the value might outweigh the cost enough to make it bearable.
@@lachlanbell8390 What is he delusional about? I seem to vaguely remember one interview he did with the excruciatingly vapid Dave Rubin and I got literally zero worth out of that. So we agree on the worthwhile part. I felt like he spoke in platitudes and wishy-washy stuff, but delusional, or wrong?
@@jesperburns He's a radical individualist, and a fanatical free market fundamentalist. He's one of the wingnuts who believes the world would be a utopian paradise if we didn't have any government-operated institutions or infrastructure, that we'd all be better off if there were no police, no fire departments, no public roads, etc. The idea that "mUh FrEe MaRkEt" is the optimal solution to any and all problems is fucking insane. It's completely ignorant of basic-bitch economic concepts like externalities and the tragedy of the commons, not to mention the most rudimentary elements of game theory. I could go on, but to keep it brief - he's delusional, AND he's wrong. About almost everything. Sure, there are some basic principles that can be extracted from individualist ideology and incorporated into a more sophisticated picture of reality, but anything taken to its extreme is absurd, and ideological extremists are delusional by definition.
If capitalism denied health csre why does 92% of Americans have access to health care? Also many countries that have universal health care also practice capitalism...
Way fewer than went bankrupt under communism. Way more We're human so no system will be Perfect You either take 80 20 or endure 20 80 But make no mistake some will not make it@@MDpart2
As a Hungarian whose country has been led by both fascists and SOCIALISTs, I think Yaron is very ignorant. First of all, the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics (USSR/Soviet Union) was a horrible state, but it was SOCIALIST, not communist. And then he literally states that he doesn't care what Stalinism is and that it's the same as anarcho-communism. You can look at this any way you want, but this was the perfect example of ignorance.
should have been called "What was worse for Jews" lol But obviously being an accepted citizen in a Socialist Nationalist nation is beneficial to the citizens. Communism is bad for the neighbors and the citizens. Parasitic pressure will let us see these nightmares again I'm sure. The Spanish flu gave us Nazi Germany, Even Mussolini found hand shaking disgusting... I wonder what corona or something worse will bring.
@@janinemarcuse6406 well individuality and communism dont work together. And history shows that the words "rational society" dont belong in the same sentence as communism.
So communism is based on a racial worldview that promotes separation of the worlds different peoples to allow them to improve their particular qualities? Please elaborate.
@@agreat8745 You should read the book to understand the full context. But below I'll leave some quotes from the book. The quotes are from a 'conversation' between Nazi Obersturmbannführer Liss and the Bolshevik Mikhail Sidorovich Mostovskoy. Liss shows Mostovskoy the uncomfortable similarities of their respective regimes. All the quotes are from Liss. In sum the thesis goes that in reality/fact both systems were/became totalitarian. Both had the idea of a specific good/Good. Pursuing that good/Good then justifies violence against all people who do not fit to this idea of the good/Good. So, there's nothing more dangerous than a systematic/organized good/Good. Maybe important to note is that Grossman himself was in the beginning also attracted to Socialism/Communism. I'm aware that 'on paper' it's a very 'bold' claim to state that Communism and Nationalsocialism are the same. But again, the problem is that in reality both systems went berserk for a self-proclaimed good/Good (utilitarianism at its worst?). “‘When we look one another in the face, we’re neither of us just looking at a face we hate - no, we’re gazing into a mirror. That’s the tragedy of our age. Do you really not recognize yourselves in us - yourselves and the strength of your will? Isn’t it true that for you too the world is your will? Is there anything that can make you waver?’ … ‘But you do have something to worry about. You should share my sleeplessness. What is the reason for our enmity? I can’t understand . . . Is it that the Führer is a mere lackey of Stinnes and Krupp? That there’s no private property in your country? That your banks and factories belong to the people? That you’re internationalists and we’re preachers of racial hatred? That we set things on fire and you extinguish the flames? That the world hates us - and that its hopes are centred on Stalingrad? Is that what you people say . . . ? Nonsense! There is no divide. It’s just been dreamed up. In essence we are the same - both one-party States. Our capitalists are not the masters. The State gives them their plan. The State takes their profit and all they produce. As their salary they keep six per cent of the profit. Your State also outlines a plan and takes what is produced for itself. And the people you call masters - the workers - also receive a salary from your one-party State.’ … ‘A red workers’ flag flies over our People’s State too. We too call people to National Achievement, to Unity and Labour. We say, “The Party expresses the dream of the German worker”; you say, “Nationalism! Labour!” You know as well as we do that nationalism is the most powerful force of our century. Nationalism is the soul of our epoch. And “Socialism in One Country” is the supreme expression of nationalism. ‘I don’t see any reason for our enmity. But the teacher of genius, the leader of the German people, our father, the best friend of all German mothers, the brilliant and wise strategist, began this war. And I believe in Hitler. And I know that Stalin’s mind is in no way clouded by pain or anger. Through all the fire and smoke of war he can see the truth. He knows his true enemy. Yes - even now when he discusses joint military strategy with him and drinks to his health. There are two great revolutionaries in the world - Stalin and our leader. It is their will that gave birth to State National Socialism. … ‘Brotherhood with you is more important to me than territory in the East. We are two houses that should stand side by side . . . Now, teacher, I want you to live for a while in quiet solitude. I want you to think, think, think before our next conversation.’ … ‘There’s nothing idiotic about it,’ replied Liss. ‘You and I both know that it’s not on battlefields that the future is decided. You knew Lenin personally. He created a new type of party. He was the first to understand that only the Party and its Leader can express the spirit of the nation. He did away with the Constituent Assembly. But just as Maxwell destroyed Newton’s system of mechanics while thinking he had confirmed it, so Lenin considered himself a builder of internationalism while in actual fact he was creating the great nationalism of the twentieth century . . . And we learnt many things from Stalin. To build Socialism in One Country, one must destroy the peasants’ freedom to sow what they like and sell what they like. Stalin didn’t shilly-shally - he liquidated millions of peasants. Our Hitler saw that the Jews were the enemy hindering the German National Socialist movement. And he liquidated millions of Jews. But Hitler’s no mere student; he’s a genius in his own right. And he’s not one to be squeamish either. It was the Roehm purge that gave Stalin the idea for the purge of the Party in 1937 . . . You must believe me. You’ve kept silent while I’ve been talking, but I know that I’m like a mirror for you - a surgical mirror.’”
I don’t think anyone who reads that book could possibly defend communism. The scary thing about Vasili though is you can sense in his writing that despite it all - despite what he writes and the undertone. He’s still a communist at heart. He still believes in the doctrines. Reading it changed my life. Before I was left leaning. Tolerant of the theses of equality and social justice that were espoused by my more radical fellows on the left. I now know that as Yoone said it is a fundamentally dangerous and horrifying project which attempts to dehumanise the human individual. And that murderous totalitarianism is a necessary part of it. Life and Fate helped me break away from my intellectual slumber and passive tolerance of radical left-wing thought and activism.
@@Acinavas:: Very, very fascinating to read ! No matter the length ... but you Effed-up with one vital point :: Hitler was not a National Socialist ! Hitler was not a Socialist anything ! Krupp and the industrial class would have purged him with Ernst Rohm.
Communism wasn't just a terrible ideology that lead to human suffering and terrible consequences for society. From an economic standpoint, it is wildly inefficient compared to capitalism. In a communist state, if they produce 100 tons of steel, they have to decide whether to make forks or build a metro subway. It is completely nuts to believe that 10 guys or a dictator in a room has that much power over the resources of a nation and has to decide which place it would be put to better use. It's so true also, the thing that unites communism to nazism is the same thing that separates them. One bet on inclusion and the other on exclusion, but they both need a dictator to guide them to this path, all for the greater of the proletariat or the Aryan race.
JorgeRafaelAssis :: Is capitalism more efficient ... really ? Boom and Bust cycles ! Bear & Bull Markets. Depressions and Recessions. Corporate Bail-Outs, financed by the taxpayers. Taxpayers' financed Corporate Rearch & Development. Corporate waste-disposal in poor neighborhoods. Environmental Degradation by Capitalists. Climate-Catastrophe ! Air-pollution ! Corporate Racketeering. Child-Labor ! Please read Michael Parenti and Noam Chomsky. They will lead you to other realistic authors/economists.
Aladdin says capitalism screwed him as he was forced to live in poverty from the day he was born. But under communism he would've had job programs available to teach him how to be 'job ready' when he is mature enough to apply.
If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, I think it's safe to say that no matter how well intentioned you feel that you are, you could be entirely evil. I don't believe, as many do, that good or evil have much of anything to do with intentions.
I enjoyed this very much. I was amused by the indignation Mr Brook showed in his disdain of Communism. When as many believe that much of US foreign Policy that would be held accountable at the Nuremberg Trials. He also likens Communism to Nazism when it should rather be Stalinism vrs Nazism... Chomsky would say so...That said. I really enjoyed the otherwise HIGH level of debate here from two intellectuals...
Whether one of these extreme philosophies is adopted by a nation and how it ultimately turns out depends heavily on national character. National Character is a poorly defined concept that many would deny exist. However I believe it is fundamental to understanding the world.
Here is a shocking and controversial idea: depending on who you are and what circumstances you're in, you might want to act differently to achieve the same general goal. There is no good reason I can think of that would make this statement less true for polities than it is for individuals. If you're a small polity, situated on a major trade node, maybe the way to be successful is not the same as it might be for a large polity in the middle of Eurasia... If your average citizen is a subsistence farmer maybe don't apply policies that seem to work in Canada, and vice versa?
@@canadagoose8543 OK so you're basically making an apologia, deploying the "no true Communism" fallacy. The failed theory of Communism does not deserve the honor of being treated as though its theoretical underpinning is the actual Communism that exists. Every other form of government is illustrated by actual real-world examples as they have existed within homo sapiens, and it is absurd special pleasing to treat Communism differently than that. (No, Lenin did not practice this magical non-murderous Communism either.) The reason Communism has existed within nation- states is because Communists haven't managed to forcibly conquer, or convince, the entire world (and I'm not sure they've ever convinced anyone without a troop deployment). Just like any other state-backed ideology, Communism held control within certain territories and not others. Other countries could be annoyingly persistent in not effecting bloodbath revolutions on their own, so the power of a nation-state backed force was more or less required.
“As soon as you look at the world through an ideology you are finished. No reality fits an ideology. Life is way beyond that. … That is why people are always searching for a meaning to life… Meaning is only found when you go beyond meaning. Life only makes sense when you perceive it as mystery and it makes absolutely no sense to the conceptualizing mind.” ― Anthony de Mello
I think a good chat with Chomsky and Kahneman would be awesome. We'd get a far different set of responses to the same question, without the stalin/communism college debate. And Thank You Lex, you are awesome even for trying.
Not a good example nor debate. Kahneman is a psychologist whose specialization is behavioral economics, not economic history or macro. Chomsky is a linguist who is both extremely clumsy and dogmatic when it comes to politics and foreign policy, on top of being completely incompetent when it comes to economics. You will not find many social scientists, politologists, economists, and IR specialists that take Chomsky seriously.
People are largely ignorant of communism. That is by design of Democrats. Stalin murdered twice as many people as Hitler, and Mao murdered more than both of them combined. Democrats allowed the teaching of the evil of Nazism for the sole purpose of using it to smear the Christian Republican right as being Nazis. Nazism is little different than communism and Democrats of the 1930s endorsed all of them. I see fascism, socialism, communism, and Nazism as all the same totalitarianism as Marxism based on imperialism with government as its own god. They all have absolute rule by dictators. They all use thugs. And they all make the people slaves. The only difference I’ve seen between the lot of them is that socialism and communism are agrarian based that killed tens of millions of people to become industrial, while fascism and Nazism are both already industrial-based putting corporations under government rule. Nazism just ads an element of racism. They are all leftist ideologies. The idea that some of them are rightwing is merely a leftwing fallacy and trope by which to demonize the righteous. The left is slavery and the right is liberty. That, or simply good and evil, is the only way that all of their ideological beliefs make sense. Anarchists are just extreme leftists who want everyone to do things their way in the ultimate act of selfishness not willing to submit to any authority except themselves. The Democrats today, the party of slavery and Jim Crow laws, are smearing Republicans as being the Nazis is just slanderous propaganda. The alt-right only exists as a leftist foil by which to condemn Republicans. Democrats are wholly Marxist in their ideology which endorses the government holding the people as their slaves with elites ruling over the masses. They will use any propaganda to sway the ignorant in order to dupe fools to part from their money in response to the fear and hate of climate change and racism that Democrats propagate. I also see the Borg, not as communists, but as Islamists being the ultimate socialist ideology in which all the people behave the same and are slaves to their elite masters. They are not a race unto themselves, but absorb peoples from other groups and make them all the same as slaves to their master. Lastly, Marx was no Christian. He was an atheist who wanted to make his own version of Utopia and, like all absolutist totalitarians, he would simply kill anyone who stood in his way.
This is a stupid comment. I'm left leaning but hate communism every bit as much as Nazism. Democrats/liberals hate communism too. Sure there are some that don't.. there are crazies everywhere. Turn off the Fox news. Nazism isn't left any more than communism is right. They are both extremism closer to each other than either left/right. The closest thing currently in the US to either would be Maga/Trump with their love of autocracy and the far left with their hatred for free speech.
I think Lex needs a podcast about Communism vs Stalinism and then another one Stalinism vs Fascism. So that we finally clarify the terms. The idea of communism was missused by Stalin and never implemented in practice. Same happened in China.
I don't agree that the collective has no consciousness. The original belief of animism was shared by all humans at one time and it said that all life and also objects and places in nature had soul and was sacred. To me it is a beautiful concept, but from the definition here it's a form of fascism.
5:00 - "The essence of evil is ignoring the facts of reality, putting your feelings ahead of your facts" - lmao so exactly Yaron Brook as he ignorantly brushes off everything that Michael Malice just said?
@@nauticalnovice9244 also the n4zi party was the national Socialist German Workers Party. The party for the workers, like all socialist/communist ideology that leads to massive death. They are more similar than they are different. Slaves to the state/ the state is the religion. Read a book.
@@kylek1556 Having the word socialist in their party's name doesn't make it socialist, it's not about what they're called, it's about what they do. That's what decides if they're socialist or not. And what if they advocated for the workers? That doesn't make it socialist. In Nazi Germany the workers didn't own the means of production, and the economy wasn't planned or market socialist. There was private property and business. That's capitalism.
Very interesting discussion. Solzhenitsyn wrote in the Gulag Archipelago that near the end of Stalin’s reign they had begun rounding up Jews in increasing numbers. The reason being that while you can have a momentary peace between religious institutions and communists, (that perceived peace being an important stage in the political subversion that leads to jews and other religious practitioners being hauled off) Unless the institution is willing to change what it teaches to mesh with the communist ideology; which if it’s true to its teachings, won’t do that, it is considered counter revolutionary in essence and has to be brought down - almost like Marx had that in mind. And then what’s considered counter revolutionary trickles endlessly into the society to the point where YOU’RE counter revolutionary for being friends with a Jew, a Catholic, a Freemason etc. I think if Stalin hadn’t croaked early, that’s exactly what would have happened. And that all it takes is one especially malevolent person to turn it from a social system with seemingly good intentions to a bloodbath. I think that both Nazism and Communism have their own unique evil around them. Both started as socialist parties promising things that aren’t based in reality. The body count is much, much higher on the communist side, but the body count of Jewish people is much higher on the Nazi side. I think both were intent on killing any individual who didn’t adhere to either party and both were very successful in doing that. Even if we were to land on the consensus that nazism is more evil, that doesn’t clear the conscious of someone who knows what communism brings and continues to cling to it. Being less evil than Hitler isn’t enough, and if there’s a difference in how I would talk to a communist and how I’d talk to a Nazi, it is extremely minor.
user-ze5oe9tx5t :: If we don't separate men from the basic ideology of Communism, we will also be drawn into these false comparisons, led by these two bullshit artists. Communism is about class-struggle. The workers having respect in the workplace. The workers having control of their destinies. The workers' labor is the reason for industrial profits. Capitalism is nothing without that labor ! NZISism is an ideology of hate/white nationalism/exploitation of Lebensraum/superiority of one group over all others/extermination of an entire group(s)/the lives of women & children of certain groups are expendable for the greater-good (German greater-good in particular). These two extreme beliefs cannot be compared. When the subject of who has killed the most ... that becomes the time to remove Stalin from the ideology of Communism AND someone with your obvious intelligence, knows that but you choose to ignore it for some Anti-Communism re-write of history. It was Stalin who defeated the Fascists/NZIS. It was the USSR that lost 20M Soviet/Russian citizens as the price for that defeat. The NZI Party was NOT Socialist. It was like The National Endowment for Democracy (NED). Socialists and Democracy are just words for public consumption ; a means to a horrific end ; both hide something far-more nefarious. I wish Marx&Engels were alive today to write a much-needed clarification to Marxism ! _The way you would talk to a Communist and a NZI, would be two extreme conversations you might be required to harm a Jewish person to prove your worthiness in the latter conversation ; lastly, Marx's father was Jewish._
@@mlake07 that would be directly infringing on others' rights, which we can both assume would already be illegal. So it goes back to the Constitution, which is one of the greatest documents ever written. You have the freedom to say mean things. You have the freedom to hurt other peoples' feelings. You don't have the freedom to poison their water. You have the freedom to bear arms. You don't have the freedom to shoot someone for no reason. These things that you don't have the freedom to do, are already illegal. If by freedom with responsibilities, you mean don't hurt others or infringe on their rights, then I agree. If you mean responsibility as in "social responsibility to do what's best for the collective" then I disagree with that commie bullshit. Communists tend to speak in code because they know 99% of the population finds their message abhorrent.
How to explain scandinavian social democracy? I am norwegian and it works very well. If we say that scandinavian system is a compromise between capitalism and leftist politics, then it would be unprecise to be so categorical about a view of society that's to the left.
No because capitalism is an idea associated with the right-wing of politics. If what you are saying is that because of the success of the Scandinavian model, that somehow leftism is morally, ethically, and empirecally better than the right, it doesn't make sense by your own statement, as you said left and right are balanced in Norway. One cannot claim that the left has a monopoly over ethics - If anything Norway's success is the result of the inherent compromise that arose in Europe between the left and the right over decades following the Second World War and the Cold War.
@@marcomagrin7611:: In order to achieve what they have, a certain maturity AND extreme Northern isolation definitely helps ... to say nothing of the basic homogeneity.
@@kenned8971 Communist death toll has fuck all to do with Peterson's understanding. I am far right wing, I loathe communism and can barely stomach 5 minutes of Zizek, but that conversation clearly demonstrated that Peterson understands very little about communism. He has only read the very short Manifesto, not even one chapter of Das Kapital, let alone studied it. I don't blame him. Das Kapital is a poorly written work. But Peterson would do well to keep out of this discussion entirely.
How about capitalism? Individual people don't matter under capitalism, only consumers. Capitalism sells the idea that a board of directors and shareholders, completely unaccountable to anyone, can run the lives of enterprises and people. All the arguments they are making against fascism and communism doubly apply to capitalism.
As a society, what's the death threshold for throwing away an ideology? 10,000 people? 1,000,000+? Because frankly they all the main political ideologies have serious blood on their hands. In my mind this is a reason to have as much democracy as possible. Small government, lots of referendums, but include democracy in the workplace, allow capitalists to own, have the biggest votes in their companies but *allow* workers to be shareholders as well. By allow, I mean they can opt out. Being a shareholder affords people the rewards, but also increases the responsibility. This balance also limits the risk for the capitalist. Why do we allow workplaces to be autocratic? We need an economic charter of freedom.
Because "workplace" isn't descriptive. If I'm someone who has built a business from the ground up why are the workers suddenly entitled to part of the business? They're already being paid. Example from where I live: a local Mexican couple bought a taco truck, and they started making a name for themselves on social media as having the best food.They started making good money, enough to start a restaurant. They bought equipment, rented a hole-in-the-wall storefront (one where numerous restaurants had failed before), and ended up being standing room only at lunchtime. They hired more people... are those workers now suddenly entitled to a share of the business that THEY DIDN'T HELP BUILD? You don't want economic freedom, you want to force business owners to give people unearned rewards.
3:13 Lex had a solid point and the dude responded with "I don't know, I don't care". Why are you trying to imitate having knowledge on the subject then?
"Stalinism wasn't real communism" is not a point, it's an equivocation, an ignorant and irresponsible interpretation of history or a sly attempt at shifting the attention away from the cause of evil. More power to him for laughing this "point" out of court. This is how it should be done.
It's like me saying "Nazis were evil, Fascism is bad." and you saying "Nah nah that was just Nazism, not fascism." Or me saying "Leopold II did terrible things, Monarchy is evil" and you saying "Nah nah that's not monarchy, that's just Leopoldism"
Fascism in America could emerge from a "one party" rule. Maybe a different head of state every few years, but the party runs everything (sort of like China).
As much as I appreciate intelligent people having this discussion, and it is fascinating don't get me wrong, but I mean, let's face it, aren't we really just splitting hairs with the comparison, lots of people die under either system, so really it's all the same thing when you get down to it.
Well under every system people have been killed. The ideology normally helps the case for killing but usually its the dictator or system at hand that does killing not the ideology thats why when we talk about ideologies, and communism especially, we have to split hairs and split the stalin or marx from commy or socialist blah blah and hitler from nazi to then get a deep understanding without hitting the road blocks of: "hitler bad he kill" "stalin bad he kill" yes theyre both bad they did infact kill but this is people this doesnt help solve the issues of these ideologies.
@@soulcapitalist6204:: Communism is not the same as National Socialism ... so they can't be judged by the same standards. If you want to stick to who or what caused the most deaths :: autocracy/divine right feudalism/landed-aristocracy/monarchies/the Roman Empire/The Vandals/Ostrogoths/The Visagoths/The Vikings/The Dark Ages/European Imperialism/British Empire/The United States' Empire/The Two World Wars/ Capitalism ... Man ! This list is endless !
"ism" is another word for "in theory". "Cracy" is the term more appropriate because the first is political philosophy, the second is political science. So its 'absurd' to call an ideology 'evil', thats just crazy. Fascism 'in theory' is where the states rights take precedence over individual rights. Even america does not have 'unlimited rights', and the state ALWAYS takes precedence when its survival is at stake. So a war breaks out, things change. In short every state is fascist to SOME degree. Likewise we've never seen communism so you can't say anything about its morality in practice. When it comes to evil I hate to tell you but american foreign policy has by now racked up quite a scoresheet. And of course when people talk about death, the people who LIVED on the continent are usually an afterthought, if thought of at all "hey, that was a long time ago ok" So this is just silly american jingoism that is more appropriate to the eighties when the cold war was goign on. Guess what, the Russia existing right now is not the same russia of thirty years ago, no matter how much the media wants to spin a new cold war.
