Comp Het, Feminism, and Queer Identity 

Love you Princess! Thank you for this video, as a sapphic person I love hearing about the diversity of identity and opinion in our umbrella, thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this. I'll try to write a comment after I finish watching if I don't forget or get distracted with work. Stay awesome ❤

I am hurting, too. :/ Solidarity is sorely, sorely needed.

Re the thing about distinctions among the bi umbrella- verilybitchie’s bi vs pan video is great, I figure you might have already seen her stuff but I’m recommending it to everyone reading this too, that video says really insightful things about the different models of queerness behind the bi umbrella vs microlabels. A bunch of her other stuff is also really relevant to the topics of this video

Queer people can absolutely absorb cisheteronormative ideas, and we do all the time. I can't speak on the posts you saw, of course. But in general, I don't feel like this is a very good example of queers reenacting cisheteronormativity. I wrote a longer comment about this with some extra thoughts btw lol. For one, homoromantic bisexual people also exist. I feel like I've seen that term used just about as much as heteromantic online. For another thing, many people feel a sharp division between sexuality and romance. For heteromantic bisexual people, maybe they just find a particular aspect of gender expression attractive in a manner that the inverse isn't. That's just how attraction works for them! Also, this line of thinking could be (unintentionally) exclusionary towards aromantic people. Aromantic people can be straight, gay, bisexual - whatever. They might not want a serious, 'raise a family' relationship with ANYONE, or they might. I feel like this idea could potentially imply that romance is 'higher' or more desirable than sexuality, instead of just being different...? While there may well be some people using the term "heteromantic bisexual" in a way that covertly implies normative gender/sexuality roles that they've intaken, there are plenty more who are simply using it as a specific descriptor for their queer experience.

I wrote a lot of my thoughts down as I was watching your video to leave a comment, but I’ve now read your pinned comment as well, and have even MORE thoughts. With talking about dissecting bisexuality even further into different labels/brackets, I absolutely see your point. I think we as humans will always try to do that, get hyper-specific and identify the minutiae of everything. I do see it as valuable, like you, at the very least on a personal and individual level so that we can better understand ourselves. I believe having the language to describe ourselves, our feelings and behaviours, our different aspects of attraction and lack thereof, can lead to more connection and community, not necessarily less. For most of my 20s I felt broken and inhuman because I couldn’t understand why I felt so little connection to the men I dated beyond sexual chemistry and (sometimes) some level of friendship. I thought I was just an unfeeling monster who was using men for my own gratification while being completely incapable of providing them with the love and affection they clearly felt for me. Even having many years of knowing, accepting, and LOVING my queerness, I still felt completely hopeless, and was terrified to date women in case I did it to them too. Then when I learned the term homoromantic, it was like having a piece of my heart click into place. I could actually see and have hope for a future with the kind of love I thought I’d never have. Because I feel more connected to myself, I feel even more connected to the queer community that I love, but also cis-het folks in my life. And because I no longer see myself as ‘defective’ or inhuman, I don’t feel so separate and out of place. By using more specific language, I also have a greater chance to be understood by my community at large. So I would certainly argue that, in sharing the language that helps specify how your experience may differ from others in your group/community, there is some use to the greater community as a whole. The breaking down/bracketing of an identity can broker understanding and connection, but like so many things, it is a double-edged sword. What one person finds connecting, another will find alienating, and then another will find unnecessarily complicated. I can only imagine that when bisexuality became a term/identity to be more specific about the different experiences compared to Lesbians (which from what I understand, all queer/sapphic women were identified as for a period in history), many people found that additional categorisation as unnecessary and divisive. But I’d need to do more research on that before making any definitive claims lol. The types of people you mention who see same-sex/queer relationships as less-than, or just for fun, certainly seem like they have a long road ahead to dismantling not only their internalised heteronormative and comp-het thinking, but also their internalised homophobia/shame about their own attractions. Whether they actually want to do any of that, well, who knows? I can only hope they do more work and come to a better understanding of themselves and the world around them. And I really, sincerely hope they stop hurting the queer women/other queer folks that they seem to see as disposable toys. Their use of an identity we share as a cover for their ignorance and bigotry is upsetting in many ways. But I think I kind of section them off in my head much the same as I do with terfs, racists, ableists, bootlickers etc. Not as in they don’t affect me or that I make ANY excuses for them, or that I don’t actively try to combat their bigotry in every way that I’m able. It’s more that I can recognise that there will always be people who weaponize the language of a community or culture, either intentionally or through ignorance. And sharing one (or sometimes more) aspects of my identity or lived experience with people I so vehemently disagree with drives me closer to the parts of our community that shares my values and encourages & inspires me to interrogate myself and the world around me even more. I hope that long-ass opinion piece of a comment isn’t too preachy. Honestly this is just a fraction of what I have written down. My brain just starts buzzing when I watch your videos! It’s just one of the many reasons I love watching your videos and hearing what you think!!

Only halfway through the video and was about to comment basically this. It really does seem to come from a place of genuine concern, but also naivety and ignorance. Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, is that it seems to be becoming more prevalent each year, and I worry about the effect it is having on younger queer folks who are online far more, just by virtue of the world and how it has changed since I (and presumably you) grew up. I think more videos like this one and other people speaking out and speaking up publicly online, and continuing to do so, is the only real way to combat this attitude, and to try and encourage and foster intersectional, inclusive, respectful ideals and attitudes over these exclusionary, divisive, prescriptive attitudes.

So real. There are terms and phrases used between different queer people that would make someone online hurl. But also I think a lot of underage queer ppl online forget that the 40 yr old leather butch and bear are not gonna understand a lick of what your saying when your talking about your hot take that would get a bunch of notes on tumblr.

It would also be nice if they were having these discussions in closed forums or something instead of for the public at large to see...

@@Jekyllstein_Gray I understand the sentiment, but to me that seems like it would just foster deception and echo chambers, where these harmful ideas are never challenged and may even end up being exacerbated. I know plenty of toxic discord servers, where the moment someone points out behaviour that may be problematic but is "accepted" in the group, they get booted. These insular communities I feel are a MAJOR reason this attitude is becoming more prevalent. People don't change their minds if their ideas never get challenged.

I was SHOCKED when I came across the lesbian bar discourse! I know my singular experience isn't data, BUT I've never had a problem at any lesbian bar. There was one a few towns away from me I really liked to go to, especially if I was drinking alone. The vibes were immaculate and it always had a comfortable amount of people where it felt lively but wasn't crowded. I knew I wouldn't get molested there or hit on when I'm just looking to relax. They also played really good music but it was for background ambiance and not trying to blow out the subwoofers. I never even got so much as side eye when I walked in! My guess is the other men who would go there were there for the same reason I was: it was a place we could go to hang out without running through the meat market gauntlet the other clubs and bars were. When I saw people claiming lesbian bars are for lesbians ONLY, as if you have to carry a members only card, my brain fried a little. Now that I know it could have been young people, or people who don't have offline community, it makes more sense. I try to keep in mind that there's so much queer trauma out there and sometimes people can get defensive if things start to feel unsafe or out of their control. If it ever did happen where someone told me my presence was making people uncomfortable I'd leave without thinking twice. I'm not looking to make life more difficult for anyone. But so far that's not happened. Or if I was turned away before even getting in I'd accept it and drink at home or whatever. But, yeah, these comments might be coming from people with no experience with these places at all or makes more sense.

It’s a strange paradox that people who aren’t self aware in their desires get hated on, but ones who have a lot of specific self knowledge get hated on as much or more. I feel we’re sometimes expected to understand microlabels technically, but not dare to inhabit the identities they were coined to describe

I’ve never dated as an ace person because I genuinely despise having to explain myself over and over to people who refuse to get it. I have limited mental energy (don’t we all) and I just don’t have it in me to spend time on dating apps trying to get the point across when I could be enjoying my hobbies or like. Napping.

Very relateable

Literally all of this, as an aroace person, especially since sexuality is a complicated thing and people demand you go into the nuances of everything you feel to even halfway believe you, when that would be insanely invasive for anyone else. I end up with a lot of dysphoria, and an uneasy sense that friends who say they're supportive don't really believe me.

Biromantic demi here. THIS. All of this. The way there's no fully acceptable way to be ace OR bi OR a woman drives me up the wall--especially because everyone who's NOT those things assumes there IS a way to "do it right" and I'm just failing. I'm failing if I read explicit fic and failing if I don't. If I date a man, I'm failing by falling into comphet; if I date a woman, I'm failing by trying too hard; if I don't date at all, I'm just failing. And that's before we get into bar discourse and the fact that, as the product of a family of dysfunctional alcoholics, I don't really enjoy or feel like I belong in ANY kind of bar. Failed again! For what it's worth, though, I've found pride events to be shockingly welcoming. I showed up to my first one in a demi pride T-shirt, holding a homemade bi pride teddy bear, and no one batted an eye. They were just glad I was there and happy to let me pet their dogs.

How did you read my soul with this comment 😂

Personally, I can never pass up an opportunity to make an "I could go either way" joke.

This one threw me cuz all my bisexual friends are like sooo on the DL with it. Glad theres folks out there loud and proud with it too

I’m obnoxious with being pansexual because finding myself in a very traditional Catholic family was HARD. 😂

She was so right with that lmao

oh wow i’m so sorry. thank you for sharing your experience 💓

@arih_rih thanks. I'm okay now. Identify as bi. There were a lot of expectations, not just comphet, that led to me making choices for the wrong reasons.

I don't know your specific situation, but I hope you don't look at that divorce as a failure. 50% of marriages end in divorce, so it's a pretty hard thing to get well enough right the first time around. Don't be discouraged, it's part of life, and I'm sure you've learned a lot about yourself and your needs from the experience.

​@@lif673750% is an outdated number. It was 50% in the US when No fault divorce first became legal; Turns out half of all marriages were only together because it was illegal to not be together. 50% bottomed out over the years, think it's about 30% now

Bi man here, and 100% agree. I would actually like to do a bit of word usage and call it compulsory heteronormativity. I think using normativity instead of sexuality in the description better explains how this is not particularly about sexuality and about applying to culture and norms. I absolutely think that men can use this because, at the end of the day, men also suffer under patriarchy. A large reason of why I’ve really only gone after women and only tried to approach women is because it’s a lot less explaining to do because of comp het. Basically, I don’t feel comfortable being out yet. I almost always approach women even though it’s a lot more thrilling for me when I’m being approached because I feel like I have to follow the script due to compulsory heteronormativity. In my mind, compulsory heteronormativity is the various systems, both physical, social, and psychological, that force or highly pressure everyone into following the incredibly narrow, base heterosexual script. It obviously affects queer people, but it even affects straight people too because the heteronormative script doesn’t even take into account all of the versions of being straight that can apply to people. I think anyone can use comp het to describe their experience as long as they use the term approproately .

As an asexual person, duh??? I thought this was the consensus in the queer community...

@@EleiyaUmei as Princess was saying earlier, a lot of these conversations are had online, and it's important to recognize that a lot of LGBTQ folk just aren't in touch with these talking points. While I do think it's important for those who don't know to learn about these ideas, those of us in the know should be mindful that not everyone is going to be in these conversations.

I'm 32, around 10 years ago I was having conversations with my gay and lesbian friends about comphet and our experience with it. This is the first time I'm hearing the claim that comphet is just a lesbian thing. I swear online discourse is manufactured drama to keep us divided or something

@@gilgongaga Okay but *where on the internet* are people having these discussions that comphet is a lesbian thing?? I really don't get it

Absolutely. Amatonormativity is a helluva drug.

honestly, still struggling with that rn, it'll get you😭

I know exactly what you mean!! Sapphic purity culture toxicity can be so cruel and targeted it feels like Mean Girls. I think that's a big reason why Adrienne Rich would use comp-het alongside bisexual and ace women too, because we have to learn how to deconstruct systems of harm, not just who is visible doing it. I've also seen it cross weird in the subconscious of more terf-aligned folks? Like it's all the unspoken "we're too soft/pure for harm" but the second someone in sapphic spaces transitions- or even just accidentally passes as a guy because they're skinny- they were ~always~ so mean and toxic etc etc, and the same for petty othering of trans women entering sapphic spaces. It's a kind of recreation of patriarchy that terfs make the silhouette of- the approximation to masculinity is seen as approximate to the capability of harm and violence.

My sister's first queer relationship was pretty bad - her partner was controlling, making my sister's eating disorder more intense, and when my sister dumped them they refused to accept it, knocking on her door at midnight claiming they would kill themselves if she didn't let them in. My sister felt like she couldn't criticise them, until I pointed out they had grossly violated her boundaries. She's had much better relationships since and has been with her current (lovely) gf for about three years, thank god. But she was lucky. I admit, I wasn't fully aware that lesbian relationships could be so terrible, but as I said at the time - if my sister was with a man who acted so controlling, we would see it as abusive (or a precursor to it) immediately

​@@setheusthese are exactly the discussions I appreciate while trying to hold onto my recently uncloseted bi identity but gaving not been physically intimate with any afab people I gave been quite impressionable ehile working things out. You and the original commenter have just helped me see clearly some of the rhetoric coming from cis lesbian spaces that has been subtly and overtly affecting me to the point I wasnt sure (being single) that I should pursue any future relationship with a cis man and should focus on exploring sapphic partnership because they were presented as safer, less toxic, better

It’s very lonely being a minority. There are no guidelines, rituals, collective wisdom of red flags like in straight femininity. When women talk to each other about the men they’re dating, the other women are quick to find toxic behaviours. But when you’re a queer woman, not only are you alone-you are idealised, which makes abuse and toxic behaviour so much easier to sweep under the rug.

I'm a multigender butch that's been assaulted by a woman. It's constantly annoying to be in wlw spaces not only because of the insistence that sapphic relationships are pure, but the fact that it always defaults to femmes being pure. If anyone ever wants to take your abuse as a lesbian seriously, you have to be less butch than your abuser, and it's exhausting. Butches are treated like we're inherently more violent and predatory and unfeeling because we're masculine. All of the pure sapphic uwu stuff is so clearly femme4femme and I am so tired.

I love both of these words hahaha

We are all stuck in a labyrinth of complicated conjugate

@ville__ what the fuck

What a world we live in, where that's a legitimate mental health hazard...

cognito hazard

I literally deleted my account because of the chronically online queer discourse 😂 at least it stopped my tiktok addiction

It’s just hard to care a bisexual woman is too scared to do it when all lesbians had to do those things to be with a woman. If you wanted to you would

Exactly. And even in a hypothetical world where many lesbians/other sapphics didn't regard bi women with suspicion, the wlw dating pool is a puddle. It is so much harder to find compatible women who you connect with.

@@emilykawaii123 definitely!

Absolutely. There are WAY more men attracted to women than there are women attracted to women, so just from a pure math perspective of COURSE most bi women date men. (And the inverse is of course true for bi men.)

It's just statistics. My friend is bi and he used a dating app to find his current girlfriend. He was complaining to me that he was expecting some 50/50 split, but there were just way more women in his offerings than men. It makes sense, if eg 1/20 people experiences same sex attraction then from a group of 50 men and 50 women you're going to get 50 women and 2.5 men who are potential candidates. Most of the world is straight.

i think you hit the nail on the head - it seems like one of those debates where no one is quite agreeing on what “comphet” means. i always heard it as that “forcing yourself to be attracted to men” you described (i’m bi), but i think different people are just interpreting the term (and chappel’s song) differently.

I agree completely! For me, as a lesbian who only recently came out, comphet is a really important part of my experience - because I did genuinely believe I was into men. And I feel like comphet is a really specific and important part of the lesbian experience for many of us. We need words to describe it and it's very useful. However, comphet can also mean the pressure of only dating the opposite sex when you're bi/dating at all when you're ace and those experiences are also completely valid. The thing is tho, lesbians are correct in saying bisexuals don't experience comphet - because they don't experience it the way lesbians mean it. But then again, bisexuals do in fact experience comphet - just with their own definition. I feel like it'd help if we had a more specific word for it, bc the problem really is just semantics

i mean, true enough, but also, lesbians aren't the only ones that experience comphet in that way - ace and aro women also experience that. i think making the term comphet to be about lesbians and lesbians only is kinda silly when it doesn't affect only them and acting like just because the way lesbians experience comphet is different to a lot of queer women means that comphet as a term should be used by lesbians only is very close-minded and only serves as a way to further alienate lesbians from the queer community when there are already issues with how much wlw media is produced and consumed vs mlm media and how few lesbian spaces like bars and clubs actually exist compared to gay spaces. also, i'd say that what bi women experience is also comphet, only the way they experience it is different because of their attraction to men. hell, it could even be argued that men themselves also experience it, but in a very different way tied to the men's role in patriarchy. and i'm not saying any of this to diminish the way lesbians experience comphet! i think it's just important to not act like the lesbian identity is the only identity that is uniquely special, because all of them are, really, and acting like it is perpeturates a lot of problems that exist in lesbian communities, including the purity culture and lack of media and spaces focused on sapphics.

@@cenzured6004 I didn't say it should only be a lesbian term, if you read my comment I was outlining how the discourse around the term is often just a semantic miscommunication. Personally, I would like a word that describes the specifically lesbian experience of not being attracted to men when you're not a man - (and I did say this is something some ace people relate to too, just not all ace people because some do still experience attraction, so that's why I said some aces can relate but didn't just say "aces" like I did "lesbians", because it's not all aces whereas it is all lesbians if that makes sense)

@@sophiaec2607 i feel like i should have made it clearer in my og reply what i meant lol. turns out making a comprehensive and long youtube comment is kinda hard. like wow, would it have killed me to break up that second sentence into shorter ones? tbh, i was more replying to the ideas you were outlining than your personal thoughts on the topic. like the whole discourse of lesbians who treat comphet the way you described and conveniently forget that ace people exist. sorry that i came across as being antagonistic towards you. also, yeah, i get what you mean by your words about ace people! i think that the reason i felt the need to mention the aces specifically is because 1. it was a very brief part of your og comment and i felt the need to emphasize it further because 2. i myself am aro-ace afab non-binary person and have read and felt understood in lesbian masterdoc, and also have talked with both my lesbian and female aro-ace friends about our experiences with comphet previously (especially how similar they are). as for creating a new word, i'm personally all for it. i am a philology major after all ;^). but for now, i suppose the practical thing would be just specifying that what someone is talking about is the lesbian comphet.

Your mom sounds dope. We need to have a June smoke out 🚬

I'm so confuzzled by this. I've been secure in my bisexuality for a year or two now, my (straight) partner accepts me, but a) I suppose I'm straight-passing and b) this year I got two of my first "are you actually bisexual???" questionings from my sister and a classmate. Like at the time I just brushed it off, because yes maybe I don't look like the typical alt person (I'm a brown woman) but like... is this that widespread of a thing in the queer community? (I don't interact with the queer community on an active basis myself, I have queer friends but am not in explicitly queer spaces because Idk where to find one + if i want to find one).

​@chelseashift It seriously depends on where you live and what social bubble you're in. Some people have pretty horrible individual experiences. The wider online discourse can be pretty damn bad. But it's also very possible to be living somewhere and interacting in queer social groups where you just don't run into this that much (or at the very least, people don't screw with you like that to your face). I've gotten lucky for most of my life, but I guess I'm also in queer artist/writer spaces that are pretty erotica driven and sex positive, so the sexuality in bisexuality is pretty easy to wear on my sleeve in what I like and what I talk about. Being a trans man married to a nonbinary person probably also helps, HA.

I've been out as bi for the same amount of time and I completely agree. I've dated more men than women, so when I date a woman, my family (friends are cool) are like whuhhh?

@kezia8027 see, this has always been crazy to me because I feel like I know so many more bi people, even from when I was in middle school, than I know people who only use the lesbian/gay labels. Like, obviously they exist, all of my friends (including my gf) are bi!

Yup. It’s hard to join the gay community when they won’t let you join. I was told in the 90s you couldn’t “ride the fence”. I think it’s different now, but maybe it isn’t. :/

This is part of the reason I swore off tiktok. People are so un-serious, lack basic nuance, and are usually like 15.

@@chandraa5333 truue i always have to remind myself that a lot of these comments are probably from teenagers that don’t know any better

you really shouldnt feel guilty

​@@chandraa5333that's so real. Online takes are very THIS IS BAD or GOOD bruh like i saw that ppl say that chappell album is THE WORST and full of skips. Like just say you have a different music taste and you don't have to say it's literally the worst thing you've ever heard. I'm not interested in Tay swift but I'm not gonna say her music is bad

The racial aspect is interesting to consider! I'm mixed too and I think my experiences with men's entitlement go the opposite way (BIPOC men act more entitled). Thanks for sharing.

I had a similar experience and while I still ID as bisexual, I realized a lot of my 'crushes' on men were actually gender envy, not sexual or romantic interest. It clarified a TON and now I see myself as nonbinary (and a lot more playful with taking elements I enjoy from masculinity), and the attraction I DO feel towards men became far less confusing or muddled. (It also become much less common LOL.) Just wanted to share in case that might resonate with you, could have saved me *so much time* if I had heard the idea earlier myself.

@@jadecastle8225It does, thank you for sharing!

I never heard about that till now - I thought the (majority of the) queer community agreed that this can be experienced by everyone...

I think this comes from a semantic misunderstanding. Every lesbian I've seen use comphet as a lesbian exclusive experience is using the word to describe the insane pressure to have hetero attraction as a woman (attraction to men), bc not having any attraction to men as a woman is a very niche experience (some aces can also relate), so I understand why we want a word to describe this specific thing. However, In all the discussions I've seen, it's always people not realising they're arguing semantics rather than their actual points. Like lesbians are going "of course non lesbians dont experience comphet" meaning of course they dont experience having to force themselves to have opposite-gender attraction, but bi people are going "of course we experience comphet" meaning of course they experience the pressure to be fully heterosexual and not have any same-gender attraction.

@@sophiaec2607 agreed, i think the lesbian experience of comphet is talked about so much because its the most stark example of the original meaning -- forcing or being forced to create an attraction to men as a woman, even when none exists due to the social pressure (and at the time, necessity since for example women had to rely on men for financial security). bisexual women face a different pressure, not to force an attraction but to prioritize one they already have, even if its not what they naturally prefer. i think a better word in our modern understanding would be something like compulsive heteronormativity, so that we can both talk about our experiences and similarities, but also differentiate the details in a concise way! the meaning of comphet has definitely changed since its origin for many reasons, but i think its important and necessary for lesbians to be able to speak on our experience being the only group who are women (or non-men) who don't like men because we face such misogyny and homophobia for it, and its very lonely.

@@lovelylittleanne1155 yesss exactly that!!! I second everything you just said 💯💯

i agree, i have been abused by women throughout my life as a masc person and no one takes it seriously

It's new to me but I've heard of women back-dooring a man to get with their gf. Mainly you hear about it from the perspective of straight people.

As a former unicorn that was hunted, you're not alone in that unhealthy relationship dynamic. I was a third in two different MF relationships, both for a very limited amount of time, back when I was in my 20s. In both situations, the boyfriend/husband was the one who wanted a side-piece and _thought_ it would be hot to watch his girlfriends perform lesbianesque sexuality for his pleasure. Instead, I (the Sapphic-leaning bisexual woman that I am) tended to be far more interested in the girlfriend/wife, one of whom was genuinely bisexual and left her asshole boyfriend pretty quickly. The married couple split up eventually too, and the wife became a good friend of mine. (My crush on her went nowhere because it turned out she was actually straight.)

@@lordtette I suspect that is the perspective of a man whose girlfriend left him for the unicorn when he turned out to be an asshole who just wanted an excuse to cheat. Or at least, I've seen that happen before.

I dunno, I think cishet women can definitely benefit from deconstructing how comp-het has impacted their lives. As mentioned in the essay, Adrienne Rich wrote about wanting to bridge the gap between lesbians and straight women within the feminist movement. Comp-het is about the sense that you don't have choice and freedom around who you love/fuck/build a life with (and how you love/fuck/build your life). Cishets can examine these things, break down how society/culture has impacted them, and start reclaiming a sense of agency around them.

It's still affect gay people myself included

I even think that to a smaller degree it’s unhealthy for the straights too, because they’re often pushed to assume themselves instead of knowing themselves. It’s just a bad, repressive system that comes down harder on some than others, and in a number of different ways.

Not all gay people

@@juliannehannes11 I know, I'm not denying that. I'm just saying it was worse in past centuries.

This! I'm a bi cis woman and my fiance is a pan cis man. While we are out to friends, I am hesitant to bring up my sexual identity to family because I feel it will either open a can of worms with invasive questions, or not be taken seriously.

actually a great point about how monogamy can kinda inform a lot of biphobic tendencies, not to say bi/pan people can't be monogamous, but the way in which we as a society actually discuss and think about monogamy can seem very biphobic

I cant help but wonder if Chappell will feel intense pressure to only choose visibly queer relationships with people who aren't cis men in future because of the narratives of her fanbase who would no doubt feel "let down" or something similar due to biphobia though. In the end it is up to her

Happy disability pride month :)))

Another angle of comp het overlapping with disabilities is autistic masking. Being autistic made it difficult for me to unlearn comp het because it was also unlearning masking as well. Finally made it tho🧡🤍💖

@@TinyGhostythank you for bringing this up! I’ve definitely thought about the overlap between gender performance and masking, but failed to think it through to sexuality before. Now that you’ve pointed it out, it almost seems obvious 🤯

​@@TinyGhosty yeah, until I realised I'm neurodivergent and started unmasking, I never even considered I could be anything other than just straight... and one of my mothers is trans and a lesbian 🤦‍♀️

Same. I have a bi sister-in-law who is married to a woman, and we were discussing the ending of the movie Kissing Jessica Stein and how Jessica seems to end up with a man at the end of the film. my sis was like, yeah, it felt like a step backwards that she ended up with a man instead of a woman, and I was immediately grateful that I hadn’t come out as bi to my husband’s family yet. I had no idea how to have that argument with a much younger bi woman who could so easily dismiss my experience despite her having been out longer. It felt like I was being gatekept from my own identity somehow, like my own (still very strong) attraction to some women somehow didn’t count in her eyes since I’d put a ring on her brother’s finger. I find myself reminding myself frequently of the times when I would’ve given anything to kiss a particular girl so I don’t end up feeling gaslit by the community around me into thinking I’m straight again.

Same. Pan woman here.

@@miriam8376That sucks, dude. I do want to say that I think queer women often feel that it’s disappointing in media for sapphic women to end up with men because there’s a strong convention of sapphic relationships being less valid or less mature than heterosexual relationships (just take a look at Freud’s theories lol) and also just fewer representations of queer relationships that end well. Not trying to overwrite your experience, but I did want to offer a possibility that mb she didn’t mean to say that queer women ending up with men is bad, but rather the overwhelming tendency in media to make bi women “grow out of” their wlw relationships within media is kinda frustrating. That being said, I think it would be wonderful to have more depictions of bi folks within media who are unambiguously bi regardless of their current relationships (I think the new Scott Pilgrim animated show is a good example? Ramona has an ex-girlfriend but mostly dates guys, and her main romantic interest is a straight man)

it's not lesser and doesn't mean you're not queer but it is different from bi women who date or marry women. just different in a neutral way

Same. I usually don't feel like I'm entitled to identify as queer as I recognize I'm a bi guy, but I've been in a straight relationship for 6 years now that I'm incredibly happy with, and I've always been a very monogamously minded person, so for all I know I might be with a woman for the rest of my life. If people identify me as a straight man, in a way, is that not what I am? My partner and I were recently were hanging out with some friends of ours and talking about dating, a gay man and a straight woman, and somehow the topic of bisexuality came up. I thought about mentioning that I'm bi, but felt that my gay side would immediately be measured up so as to prove that I am bi. My partner then said that she doesn't think she's been with a bisexual person, and then caught herself and said "oh wait, that's not true." But, before the conversation continued, our friends chimed in that they could *never* be with a bi person, that they're too indecisive, casual, and disinterested in anything serious. Considering my partner forgot in the moment that I'm bi, considering the judgement of being openly bi and how that assumption doesn't even align with me, and considering I'm settled into a straight relationship, I guess I'm just straight. It's certainly makes it easier for my religious parents, lol.

Co-sign, I don’t miss an upload and the Challengers vid was my first (and nearly only?) introduction to the movie, periodt. Great video.

Definitely the best challengers video I watched!!

I've been trying to catch up with the backlog after a busy window so I'm looking forward to the Challengers one!

That Challenger video wasn't really about Challengers. I think it will do better with a new icon and name. Because it's a really good video

I def wanna watch the Challengers vid and have been waiting to until I actually see the movie 😅 it's on my list!

I'm really sorry. I'm a brown bisexual woman and I also don't really feel accepted in queer spaces because the community doesn't seem to recognize intersectional identities.

I joined an LGBTQ+ group at a transbuddy's suggestion, that it was really good for him and helped him feel comfortable in realizing he was trans and wanted to transition the best he could... the coordinator was nice, i went to a few sessions... But yea... there trans men and women, there were gays and lesbians... i was the only androgynous demi-pansexual and none of them knew what those were or cared and got angsty when i tried to expain it... sorry guys, but the LGBTQ+ community is STILL mainly run by those that scream "pick your lane!" But then also scream that toxic poly is the best (as in the poly many ive dealt with were toxic forms, not poly itself, it works when it does... which is rare imo) but this is the stuff i always come up against when i deal with ANY of the 'community', and ive been around it more then most of these ppl... Gay is fine, lesbians are fine, trans are OH SO FINE!! But if youre bi? Intersex? nonbinary? Androgynous? God forbid if you try to explain your GENDER is Futa but physically youre sex is female and present as Androgynous? Oh my lord... christ the amount of 'those are bad words!' Ive had thrown at me... sweeties, if those words were bad I WOULD BE THE ONE TO COMPLAIN!! Not use them as descriptors... But yea, feel ya my amourphous blob kin~ (i say with joking love :3)

Inclusive in the sense that they’re tolerant, but how many lesbians do you know that date bi women? Be friends with them, maybe, but not date. In my experience, a lot of lesbians are biphobic. I know it’s a no-go to generalize a marginalized group, but I also think it’s kinda dismissive to ignore the reality of many bi people. And to be fair, straight/bi women have a long history of being male-centered so I sometimes understand where lesbians are coming from, I just think they go too far.

yeah, the discourse that consistently paints us as "villains" because we dare to not like men is so far removed from reality

@@daniellelicht5093 Is this from your actual experience, or online discourse? I am bi and my partner is a lesbian. I have another partner (a guy), and we have lesbian friends and are in lesbian spaces frequently. Nobody has ever been weird about it.

@@MK-jb5sj I can already tell you’re trying to be dismissive with your first question, but yes this is my actual experience, including real life and the thousands of biphobic comments online. I think we’re at the point of history where we can’t dismiss everything on social media as a loud minority.

@@daniellelicht5093 most of my experience of dating has been with bi women and my current partner was bi when i met her (and identified this way for the majority of our relationship). most of the lesbians i know have at some point in their life dated someone who is pan or bi. i feel like because being bi is much more common than a lesbian, i don’t know many people who excluded them from their dating pool. this comment is not meant to ignore peoples real life experiences and i am sorry that you have had bad experiences with lesbians. it is just interesting to me that this discourse continues to be talked about with seemingly no conclusion when in my own life, the lesbians i have met seem to be far different that the discourse paints.

@@time-is-restored i like the sentiment here but every community has its flaws. don’t be ahistorical- the consequences of lesbian separatism still resonate through the queer community, and this whole situation is an excellent example of its impact.

@@aricheec7722 hiya, can i ask what about my comment was ahistorical? i didn't intend to make any claims about queer history, just talk a bit about how we don't need to pretend like we don't have differences in order to also accept our similarities. thanks!

Corrective Ra** I’ve never heard that term before

Right? Meanwhile, Lipstick Lesbians and Log-Cabin gay men, among others, look very "staight"!

Such a good point - I've always felt this argument (which is stupid in a lot of other ways too) really erases bi people who are gender non-conforming. I am as bi as can be and have long been out and proud about that, yet I've had so many people throughout my life say that they can't imagine me liking men (I'm afab) because of how I present. I think there's an assumption that bi people will always choose to present themselves as 'straight-passing' so as to 'remain attractive' to potential cishet partners, who presumably would be less inclined to date someone who looked visibly queer.

⁠@@izziekelly4728 yeah as a fellow genderqueer bisexual who “looks like a lesbian”, I feel this Brain tangent bc I wanted an excuse to ramble about this- I actually watched Shrek and Shrek 2 recently and noticed a reading of Fiona’s story that reflects this experience. (Note I don’t think the filmmakers thought of this reading, they put it there accidentally rather than on purpose, but it’s there either way and it helped me understand my experience.) She has two forms: her human form and her ogre form. Both forms are authentically Fiona, but the prophecy says that once she finds true love (enters a monogamous relationship she intends to stay in for life) only one form will be visible to the world. Her human form is socially acceptable, so her parents and society hope that it will be her permanently visible form- but if that had happened, she would have had to walk on eggshells all her life and perform delicate feminine politeness to earn love; it would have been a joyless life. Instead, though, she finds true love with Shrek (who also, I will say, dresses like a butch lesbian) and her ogre form becomes permanently visible. She is marginalised by society as an ogre, but when she’s home in the swamp she doesn’t have to put on a front- in fact when she burps and farts and does gross ogre stuff Shrek smiles and does the same thing and they laugh together and love each other even more. So she has much more joy in this life than she ever could have had with Charming. Likewise, although I’ve experienced some discrimination for being visibly queer, I find true joy in queer spaces because I don’t have to explain myself like I would have to explain myself if I treated straight cis men as the main component of my dating pool. When I think of my decision to chop off half my hair and carry my rainbow wallet on my belt with my keys, I think of Fiona’s decision to let the potion wear off at the end of Shrek 2.

I was jussst about to comment this, the “acceptably” feminine thin white bisexual woman in their mind does exist but is by far not the vast majority of bisexual women

@@izziekelly4728ew, I hadn’t thought of that being the assumption in so many words. After all these years, heterosexist society still finds new ways to disappoint me!

A lot of people enjoy that type of love.

​@@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396 doesn't mean it's healthy though lol

@@ohdreamaker It depends on the person and how they define it. I like making my relationship important. It probably means sacrificing some part of the self to become two, but I also give myself a lot of free time to myself. When my partner and I get done with work for the day, we usually have a couple hours to do what we want as separate people. He likes video games. I like to read and draw and have other hobbies. After this, we make dinner. But I feel younger people don’t want to give up any of the self for a relationship and that’s why their relationships are hard. They don’t want to give anything up. Or they just don’t get the give and take of relationships. Or compromise. So I guess “questionable” is in the mind of the observer. What they might see as questionable, I may not and vice versa. There are people who are single and love it…or maybe they should stay single and not judge their friends who want to be with someone. It’s fine. To each their own. I am not going to yuck somebody’s yum because their lifestyle doesn’t suit me and my vision of what a relationship should be. I just know whatever I am doing, it works, somehow. :)

I am not going to argue about if it is about lesbian comp het or not but I think the issue I have is that even in queer publication reviews of the song that mention comp het they talk about general queerness so if this is solely a lesbian song I think that is fine but I don’t think that’s been made clear in any of the interviews I’ve seen. But if Chappell has said anything could you direct me?

We can all agree its from a lesbians experience. But that also doesn't negate that bisexual and other queer women cant relate or shouldn't. Chappell writes music for the QUEER community. But also through her sapphic lense. She has never and probably will never say her music is for or can only be related to by lesbian women. I fully think shes proud to be a lesbian. But her goal has always seemed to be to unite and uplift the queer community.

i hope one day you are able to empathize with those who have similar but different experiences than you. it must be lonely to see someone struggling like you did, and decide it’s not similar enough suffering to extend compassion to them

other people identifying with the song doesn’t erase lesbians. other people explaining how these experiences aren’t exclusive to lesbianism doesn’t erase you, and you shouldn’t be feeling so threatened by peoples real world experiences not fitting your expectations

Also absolutely loved that video! It was very well researched and made me appreciate the film in ways I hadn’t before!