I have experimented in Wind turbines for years. It is like comparing Apples and Oranges. There are many different types of vertical turbines compared to Horizontal turbines. There are types of VAWT that use blade lift designs like the HAWT that move faster than the wind moving over them. The difference is that VAWT typically can start under lower wind speeds and can handle turbulent changing lower level wind and react quickly. HAWT are typically mounted up higher in stronger wind. If you match the swept areas and put them at the same height with the same lift style blades , you would be surprised at the results. VAWT are better suited to be set up to take advantage of drag forces on lower level turbulent wind with many magnets on the outer diameter of the swept area at lower speeds or fed into a gear box using mechanical advantage to run a generator or pump water or like uses. HAWT are better suited to take advantage of higher prevailing wind streams at higher speeds where they don't have to make quick adjustment for turbulent winds. A VAWT can start up at a lower wind speed and generate power for longer durations at a lower rate so in a years time it is about a wash between the 2 . A VAWT designed right will never over speed and damage itself. A HAWT will need to be turned out of the wind and maybe even need to use a braking system to avoid being destroyed by wind. I grew up in The Midwest with lots of windmills at shorter heights that relied on the drag effect to pump water and charge batteries for off grid Electric systems. Sometimes they would be damaged by storms but most of the time they had systems to turn them out of the wind automatically to slow them down and protect them.
Dear sir, Your opinions would interest me greatly. I wish to use a hybrid off-grid system that uses both solar and wind energy. Because of the height and space constraints, I intend to employ a vertical wind turbine. mostly for light winds. We welcome any recommendations.
@@sandun4983 It is best if you mount a lift style VAWT on a base that is out away from the home a distance. Install a base that can be tilted down and up with a hand winch or block and tackle anchored to a vehicle or something similar. The other option is a small building to house everything in like a garden shed and tilt the mast or base up against the out building. Keep the charge controllers and inverters in the small outbuilding. Build part of it with an enclosed insulated vented area for the battery bank. You want to keep any fumes or corrosive elements away from the rest of the components. In that same area or somewhere close you might want to have a backup generator that can take over and charge up the battery bank. Most charge controllers will have the ability to turn on a gen set if the battery bank voltage get's to low. Most wind turbine charge controllers also incorporate a dump load of some form. I built many in the past that dumped excess power first into an Electric water heater and then into a standard resistance air heater. Anything over and above what is coming out of the wind turbine to use for charging needs to be dumped into a dummy load of some kind. Usually it is a resistance heater of some kind but anything could be used. So the idea or sequence is Both Solar and wind go into charge controllers or a combination controller inverter designed for it. Anything beyond what is being used at the time goes into the battery bank. It is better to have more battery and less Solar if you have to prioritize for off grid usage. If space is a premium, even 500 watts worth of Solar panels can charge up a massive battery bank if you are not using up the power you are trying to harvest. A good way to look at power needs is first how much 240v power do you require in one day to run major appliances. Then how long and how often do you need them and could a lower power consumption appliance do the same thing more efficiently. Next would be how long can you run with only 120 volt power for smaller appliances that must run. IE .. Reach in freezer, refrigerator, water pumps, lights etc.. Maybe you can cook using a microwave or hot plate or super insulated slow cooker or use gas. Sometimes you can get away with running fans instead of an AC. This is a start. We can keep going if you want to. Without knowing your planned load it is hard to tell you what you need.
@@silverpc4611 All of the better designs are 3 phase out put that needs to be converted or inverted at the point of use. It is more efficient to use three legs or wires of AC power at a higher voltage. It allows you to run the wiring at a smaller size a longer distance with minimal loss. Even a standard car alternator is actually a 3 phase motor that is rectified to DC inside of it. It is actually more efficient to remote the voltage regulator to near the batteries. You still need to run 12 volts out to it unless it is a self exciting winding style Alternator. The best generator design is something similar to a direct drive washer motor. It has a larger diameter stator and rotor and can generator more power at a slower rpm. The closer the outside diameter of the generator is to the outside diameter of the turbine the more power you can generator at a lower wind speed. Here is a link just to show the design I am talking about. www.ebay.com/itm/374136192152?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28 These work well with a drag type or Savonius type turbine. They can even be made cheap from 55 gallon drums cut in half. www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/savonius-wind-turbine As the outside diameter of the generator increases you need slightly more leverage to overcome low wind speeds. Drag types are good for that purpose. You need to match the type to what your prevailing wind speed is and the use. Look at the torque and power the old Dutch windmills had to pump water and grind flour. They worked off of the drag principle like ship sails. They cannot move faster than the speed of wind but the torque could be run through a gear box or pulleys to increase the speed of the generator for more power. It is either speed or torque that get's the work done and they are inverse of each other.
@@desertdan100 do you have any suggestion for vawt that actually work? I have seen mostly disappointing test results and flimsy products. I had the thought of mounting something on the house, but perhaps due to vibrations its not that a bright of an idea? Many small ones?
@@jukkatakamaa7274 Why? Showing that one didn't have enough current to power the LED's is essentially "unfair" too. It would be nice to know the actual difference in output.
@@jukkatakamaa7274 I found a paper by Jazuli Fadil et al which reads: For VAWT we used H-darrieus type whose swept area is 3.14 m 2 and so is HAWT. The wind turbines have 3 blades for each type. The air foil of both wind turbines are NACA 4412. We tested the model of wind turbine with various wind velocity which affects the performance.We have found that CP (maximum coefficient of power) of HAWT is 0.54 with captured maximum power is 1363.6 Watt while the CP of VAWT is 0.34 with captured maximum power is 505.69 Watt. In other words, about 1/3 power difference using those particular blades on similarly sized turbines. Again, while it is "unfair", it would be nice to see some metrics and talk about the coefficient of power of each system. As I mentioned, just showing the VAWT doesn't light up the higher draw LED's is pretty lazy way to show the difference in output.
Wind turbines heights in my town is limited to the closest property line distance. I haven't seen HAWTs that feather their blades for high winds so they need braking. Finally, my best analogy would be that you can cook 1 ostrich egg (HAWT - high power output) or many chicken eggs of the same weight (VAWT - lower individual output adding up to the HAWT). Also with multiple VAWTs one can be serviced while only losing a portion of the output. VAWTs start at lower wind speeds too.
Thank you for the video. For every engineer who has even remotely paid attention in fluid dynamics (even appart from the obvious area-discussion), it is obvious which system will deliver more power (or is more efficient). However, I do think that the vertical axis wind turbine does have their specific applications, especially where space is tight and construction height is limited. Sometimes even a less efficient wind turbine is better than none at all.
Have you seen any vertical wind turbine suitable for somestic areas? I have seen the Icewind turbine but it promises a hefty price tag. Since domestic areas are packed with buildings and people do not want the offer of having a wind turbine potentially come crashing down the turbines has to be mounted on houses, already existing buildings and be pushed by modest winds. What kind of expectations can one have? 100-200 watt, probably less per installation ?
@@davidfurmanski8706 Do you mean the term damned by faint praise? If you do, it means is was weakly praised, maybe so weakly praised that it wasn't really praise at at all, but rather a condemnation.
Every engineer who has remotely paid attention, and knows anything about engineering and fluid dynamics knows that there is sometimes a trade-off between designs which often creates a scenario where a less is actually more. A HAWT will perform better in places with steady airflow and few directional changes such as higher altitude installations and flat open areas, while a VAWT will perform better in areas of turbulence and/or frequent directional changes like you might see in a lower altitude installation in a crowded residential area. Despite the capability of delivering more power, a HAWT may produce less power under some circumstances.
Instinctively it occurs to me that the diameter of both devices is a factor. The bigger the diameter the more leverage the airflow has to turn the shaft. Also if you increase the height of a vertical turbine I imagine you would increase the power available for power generation.
I'd love to see a video comparison of these two turbines, but with the addition of a bypass plate that prevents the wind from hitting the returning blades on the VAWT. These mechanisms could be mechanical and automatically change with the wind direction, a bit like a weather vane, to shield the advancing blades from the oncoming wind.
I can't even count the number of times I've driven through areas with vertical and horizontal wind turbines and seen only the horizontal ones turning. With the horizontal turbine, the wind is pushing against all the blades all the time. But the vertical turbines, by the very nature of their design, have one "blade" moving in the direction of the wind, and one "blade" moving into the wind. So it's fighting itself.
I like the roof line adaptation where they take a bunch of those wind turbines in the style of your vawt, but turned on its side. They are stacked along the roof line to catch the wind running up the roof and are hooded so only the leading blade gets wind. You could also use a verticke stack if those at the corners of the house for a similar effect. Definitely would want dome sound dampening technology there
Thank you for sharing some information with regards to the comparison between HAWT and VAWT in connection to it's performance in generating rotational motion as a means of converting wind power to mechanical then into electrical power.
While he may be right and the vertical turbine doesn't generate the same as a horizontal, the clear benefit is that if the winds constantly change directions, there's no wire to tangle or break because the vertical can take winds from any direction.
I noticed that the generator in your VAWT is different type with in HAWT. maybe this is the main reason that VAWT has smaller power output than HAWT? and the reason it can not make small HAWT turbine rotating
By the vertical you should shade the not working side, which comes against the wind. I think you vould gain some more power. And the shading has to be triangular, to compressing the air to the working side.
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." --- Lord Kelvin
Numerous, long-term, independent studies have been conducted on similar-sized horizontal and vertical wind turbines and every time, the horizontal models far outperform the VAWT's. And, every large, commercial wind turbine is HAWT, not a single VAWT. Tiny, plastic models tell us nothing.
This is not a great test as the Gorlov vertical style turbines are much more efficient and quiet than the vertical turbine you used. Gorlov style turbines also create power in both directions (compared to the wind direction) of the blade so it catches some of the power after the facing blade has caught some. The model you used doesn't do that so is less efficient.
The horizontal turbine has really small blades and therefore small surface area making contact with the air. Haven’t watched the video yet, but it’s obvious which will preform better
MY POINT OF VIEW IS THAT THE SAME BLADE ASSEMBLY BE USED FOR BOTH HAWT AND VAWT, FOR EVALUATING COMPARISON BETWEEN BOTH / FOR ATTENSION PLEASE, MR PHILIP RUSSELL
@@derekfinch9586 It will still spin if installed accurately. Just not so efficiently as 2/3. This small difference makes millions of dollars worth of difference in large scale commercial turbines. But in a home built demonstration, it's a small difference really. However who wants a 1 blade turbine lol
the problem with a "normal" turbine, its quite daungers to have if its planned to be in a garden. its much and safter to have the horsiontal also much to protect, because there is NO turning parts, that moves, the directions and the BIG wings.. but the power is less on horsintal, but also much easiere to multiplied.. The Main issue for house hold turbines is the NOICE the produce to the envirement. nabos and suchs. the limits is very low and can that be a issue with a horsiontal turbine. or is it possible to make then in a enhanched cabin.. perhaps make to Solar panles lifted and have them between the Roof and the solar panels. that schould reduce the noice from them, and give more options for multiplied turbine generators
with VAWT there might be less loss due to the direct transfer of power? The HAWT has gears and there is always a percentage lost there. Smaller VAWT and more of them alongside a house ( what I am trying) would seem a good starting place for me I think. Where I live we've had nearly 6 weeks of rain and very little sun but we always have some wind.
I am building a large vawt using a metal spool that is used to transfer electric cable.. I have a wooden spool also that I realized would make a good base..and I plan to use metal roofing for the booster panels.. The generator will be a challenge as well.
I see so many possible variables which are not addressed, that I, at least as a non-official-scientist makes me wonder if it's valid at all. Is exactly the same motor/generator used in both versions? You changed the angle and even design of blades on the horizontal, but not on the vertical, we never saw the fan generating the wind, much less smoke trails to see if there was different volume of airflow at different heights.. way too many possible variables.
There are plenty of issues I can see here. First off there are MUCH better vertical vanes that produce nearly the same power. Next vertical requires less maintenance and a whole lot less room. Vertical does not need slip rings for complete 360 rotation that will eventually possibly twist the wires as it turns to face the wind. Vertical can take a lot MORE wind if you get storms and such and the blades do not need to be variable pitch....there is a "perfect pitch". The turbine can be supported top and bottom reducing friction on the generator section. The turbine can be near the ground and the vanes at any height you find best so MUCH easier to maintain (don't have to take it down to work on). The BIGGEST BY FAR to me is vertical doesn't kill birds and bats. Horizontal gens are killing valuable birds and bats by the millions...that WILL come back to bite us. Good vid but no very comprehensive. Check out Robert Murray Smith on here...he's done a couple great videos you might find interesting.
I have read that the horizontal turbines will not spin faster than the wind speed, and that the vertical turbines will spin faster than the wind speed - which makes them more prone to breaking. View some of the videos of the giant wind turbines, burning. I'll take horizontal any day.
You compared a really small, inefficienty design vawt to a much bigger much better design hawt. Its not a fair comparison. Also, vawt are not as efficient as hawt but have their own advantages that you have to clarify, like using gusts and turbulent flow much better, so works better thsn hawt in built up enviroment.
But then how would you be generating power? It's connected to the turbine (or is the turbine). If it's running free, then you're not translating any of that movement into usable energy.
The comparison is not valid. The radius of the horizontal axis turbine is greater than the radius of the vertical axis turbine. I think you did your experiment from Guantanamo jail.
@@PhilipRussell I understand about the swept area, I'm a math teacher. But the space occupied by the blades of the HAWT is greater than that of the VAWT. That is a point to consider.
I know very little about wind turbines . I do have a horizontal axis one. It spends most of its time changing direction to face the wind. I do not think this would happen with a vertical axis.
The magnets are definitely much bigger on the HAWT... Now if you make a flat halbach array on the VAWT that would be interesting to see possibly double sided
Horizontal are more powerful but vertical can fit into small spaces - There is no answer to this - space is the overriding consideratoin. Vertical work in lower wind speeds and might be more suited to an urban environment.
The swept area is about the same according to the manufacturer, but the amount of power produced is very different because of the design and the rotational speed. Other factors are more important than the swept area.
Being a science teacher we use numbers all the time. I tried to make the video easy for aa large number of viewers and decided not to bore them with all the figures we got out in the experiment s in the class on the current, voltage and Power. Perhaps I will do this in another video.
Dear sir, Your opinions would interest me greatly. I wish to use a hybrid off-grid system that uses both solar and wind energy. Because of the height and space constraints, I intend to employ a vertical wind turbine. mostly for light winds. We welcome any recommendations.
Horizontal turbines much more expensive and comlicated. That is why used more often. All those wind mils subsidase by goverment. Than higher cost than more money you can stil.
@@grahamflowers Your design is interesting. It seems to have two flywheels, one being rim and one on the turbine itself it seems, is this the case? Can 1 flywheel disc be used, and located in the center of the blades instead of the rim? Thankyou in advance for contributing your knowledge freely. If only more did
That was not scientific, was the generator the same for both systems, what was the RPM of each system, could the vertical maintain the same speed with the same generator. What was the decibel rating of each unit. Nice video though just lacking in information.
Unfair and poor comparison, the alternator on HAWT is big , plus more height on HAWT , try using 3 blade "H darreius" design on VAWT , you will get more better results.
@@palanik1960 Right...to me the magnets used for the vertical one would have to be much bigger and different than the horizontal one. They couldn't possibly be putting out the same power. The actual generating part needs to be the exact same for this to be a true comparison. It doesn't look to me there would be enough room in the base of the horizontal one as there is in the larger vertical one.
@@palanik1960 The plastic pieces that are blue should be different but the actual generator that produces the electricity should have the same exact output to be able to have a true comparison of the two different designs.
@@PhilipRussell Not widely used. I've only seen vertical turbines in commercials. In reality, all vertical turbines that I have seen have already collapsed. The physical principles of vertical turbines make them short-lived and ineffective.
This mildly infuriated me.. only because it bothers me to see a comparison between horizontal and vertical turbines when the horizontal turbine is a poor design.. more tall than wide when a much more effective design is much wider than tall. Much more torque and efficiency is achieved with a shorter, wider horizontal turbine design. (Sorry, I describe the turbines by how the blades spin.. the tall one to your left I would call a vertical turbine)
Yes I agree, vawt could be made with a either long blades or blade that are further away from the axis of rotation, this would allow them to spin slower to produce the same amount of power or produce more power if the spin as fast
You should try connect olds elevator to draw water with a horizontal turbine, turning the tube of the old elevator. This could then draw the water up to a great high with wind power and drop down which then could run a hydro generator is the normal elevator in action. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--fu03F-Iah8.html
Bogus test. Any 2 identical generators at a givin rpm, will produce the same power. If the wind turbines are not designed to give that rpm there is no comparison. Your comparison should look into cost and complexity of each design to produce the same power output. And the efficiency of the design. The vertical axis you showed was not the most efficient.
how about using the same swept area for a starter! WTF not an equal comparison right out of the gate; I quit watching knowing you're biased to begin with
@@robertrichard2322 Fair enough. Not debating one is better than the other. All I was trying to say was that the gist of the video is stating that Vertical is better. Not my conclusion...just helping save time. Maybe I'll update my wording to reflect the same.
These are demo models to teach students all about wind power as an alternative energy source. For that they are worth every penny. For making electricity they are useless buy a real one. My job is education and showing people all over the world wind turbines and fuel cells and solar panel and how they work invaluable. I do a whole series of experiments measuring this in the laboratory classroom but it does take a long time to do and the maths is not for everyone - so just a simple video.
The first obvious difference is that: a) size (swept area) of both turbines is DIFFERENT. You need to compare apples with apples... b) one is lift based, another is drag based...you NEED to compare apples with apples. Otherwise - this is just misinformation...sorry.
The swept area is about the same according to the manufacturer, depending on the configurations. but the amount of power produced is very different because of the design and the rotational speed. Other factors are more important than the swept area. On these models I can change the blades on both turbines and the angles. I can use 2, 3 or 4 blades in each turbine which will change the swept areas. I could have set up the videos with all the maths to prove the same areas for each configurations, but then it would have been a longer and more boring video and here I am just looking at concepts.
This was the first for two videos I created for my students. The first which you watched was a demo of what happens. In the other video the explanation the Law is explained and the video of the magnet is at full speed ru-vid.comSVVK0xoEeNk?feature=share
Vertical turbines are crap, just ask anybody that's actually bought one and ran it for a while, they're rubbish and it only takes one short docu to tell everybody out there this absolute fact
i started off interested and finished up confused by a word soup that made no sense, contained no real science and had exactly the opposite effect to your stated aim.
Great video!! Thank you!! Question: Would you mind making a video comparing the efficiency of the turbines compared to this ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-S0zF0bFEUrA.html? It would be very interesting to see how much it improves the efficiency of the vertical turbine! Thanks!
