Conclusion To: Did Oxalic Acid Kill My Beehives?? Beekeeping 101  

After sublimation of oxalic acid under laboratory conditions about 54 % of the oxalic acid can still be found as oxalic acid. Formic acid is produced, but just 1 % of the initial weight of the oxalic acid before the vaporisation. So, if you sublimate 2 g (0.07 oz) oxalic acid per hive, or 1 g (0.03 oz) per hive, you can find 0.01-0.02 g ( 0.0004-0.0007 oz.) formic acid after the sublimation. That converts to 1.63 ml formic acid 100 %. In a formic acid treatment usually about 30 ml/ 36.6 g formic acid are used. Basically, the occurence of formic acid after the sublimation of oxalic acid is insignificant.

Hi, This is János Fenyősy, I am the designer and manufacturer of InstantVap. I am familiar with the theory that when OA dihydrate is placed in the vaporizer, it first melts to a liquid state, then the water boils at 100C (212 F), and then the OA starts to sublime around 150-160 Degrees Celsius(302- 320F). But once the temperature reaches 190 Degrees Celsius (374F), the remaining OA decomposes into carbon dioxide and water. But my tests show that if I vaporize at 190 Degrees Celsius (374F) or below, the water content boils off and most of the oxalic acid remains, even after 3-4 minutes. This is because the dry oxalic acid crystals do not take the temperature of the kettle surface well, and sublimate very slowly. When evaporating at higher temperatures, 200 Degrees Celsius (392F) or above, the oxalic acid evaporates as the water evaporates, even in the form mixed with the water. If I raise the temperature, the process speeds up. Obviously it would be interesting to measure whether increasing the temperature increases the degradation or not? What happens at what temperature? If you look at evaporation above 200 degrees (392F) up close, you can see that the leidenfrost effect occurs, which means that water bounces on a vapour cushion when it hits a hot surface, and this is protected by the vapour cushion, insulating the liquid and the dissolved oxalic acid in it from the hot surface. Most likely what happens is that as the temperature increases, the evaporation is faster due to the higher temperature, but it is still protected from the heat by this vapour layer. This is the test, when I dropped in the oxalic acid at around 120 Degrees Celsius (248F), and increased it up to 190 degrees (374F), but still a lot of oxalic acid remained after almost 5 minutes: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9xPZVkV7RHM.html Test on 180 degrees (356F), oxalic acid remaining in the bowl: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-XM-9jjWrLyY.html Test on 190 degrees (374F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-n9SCRftvlRw.html Test on 200 degrees (392F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-VDiPuBOI598.html Test on 210 degrees (410F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ayta-inAgrQ.html Test on 230 degrees (445F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ciCtelTodLc.html Test on 240 degrees(464F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-J9gYtdYZ4SA.html Test on 250 degrees (482F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-pFYuhvMiyHo.html Test on 260 degrees (500F): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1iH2U73Rm28.html I also did more tests, like vaporizing into a cooper tube, and titrate it. I even presented it on Fredrick Dunn's chanell.

You cannot get the oxalic converted into formic unless its sealed under pressure because it sublimes into vapor and escapes way before that reaction. It wont happen regardless in a non sealed vaporizer. Your problem was simply a very high mite population.

IMO there are 2 possible confounding factors. 1: You said you had actually seen mites on bees before you treated them. When bees get a mite load of a certain level even non mite resistant bees will exhibit very high VSH behavior. They will begin pulling massive amounts of brood trying to control the mite spread. If you were actually seeing visible mites on bees the infestation rate was likely massive, certainly high enough to trigger brood cannibalization. 2: You said you'll had a weeks worth of rain right before you looked into them, without any feeding, at a time of a poor nectar flow. If you have environmentally responsive bees they will stop laying and cannibalize brood if there isn't enough coming in (which there wouldn't be with a period of super high rainfall). So either one of those things or both of them combined could be largely responsible for what you saw, especially since you've used OA plenty in the past and haven't had those problems.

Also, what i could see in your frames was bald brood, caused by high mites, which suck out the hemolymph in larva. Your OA killed the mites and gave them a chance to recover the brood into healthier bees amd better brood patterns.

There is a much better way to use OA. Use equal amount food grade glycerin and OA, for example 1 cup glycerin and 1 cup OA. Heat but don't boil glycerin then add OA. Soak a roll of blue shop towels in mixture and spread 1 towel over each brood chamber. I have used this method for years and I never have a mite problem or harmed the bees in any way. It works so well, you and the bees will be very happy.

Warning for using oxalic acid vaporizer!!!! Bees were not killed by OA, but by a blocked evaporator pipe🚂 TWO CONDITIONS MUST BE MET in order for oxalic acid to be converted to formic acid. The first condition is high temperature, the second condition is high atmospheric pressure. High temperature is not a problem with oxalic acid vaporizers,all the time while the atmospheric pressure is normal. The problem is that the crystals of oxalic acid block the tube from which the vapors come out and high pressure is created inside the boiler as another condition for the formation of formic acid. AFTER A FEW TREATMENTS WITH THE EVAPORATOR YOU MUST ADD A LITTLE DISTILLED WATER TO CLEAN THE PIPE AT THE EVAPORATOR OUTLET AND IN THAT CASE THE OPENERS WILL NOT BE BLOCKED AND THE CREATION OF HIGH PRESSURE INSIDE THE EVAPORATOR. Continue with the treatments without fear. Best regards from Bosnia and Herzegovina

Oxalic acid is organic and can be used with honey supers on. I don't like to do a treatment if going to be hot outside, it really raises the temp within the hives.

That is great to know. Also the manufacturer of your vaporizer needs to know that at high temperatures it causes the acid to change into another form of acid, and they should put that information in their directions on using their product.

I really like your videos because you show us your thought process. It's similar to how we're all thinking. We're all trying to solve this puzzle and this is helpful! Thanks!!!!

It gets to 45C in my area, so I doubt that you would have to worry about heat where you are, I used to think it was too cold for my Bees when it got to 19C as I would be shivering and require a Jumper. Then I watched a few RU-vids from American and Canadian Bee Keepers and laughed at what I thought was a cold Winter :). My Queens never needs to lay Winter Bees as where I live they never need to hibernate, they get to collect Honey all year round. I had to collect Honey yesterday on my Hives as they were over full and it's the 30th of July our coldest period of the year, it drops to about 24 to 26C during the day and can get to 15C at night, lucky I have a heat cycle on my Air conditioner as 15C is brutal and I can't work out how people live in Canada or North America where they can get zero or Colder, they must walk around like Ice Blocks :). Unfortunately some absolute mongrel brought in Mite infected Hives into NSW Australia and up till then, we didn't have those problems in Australia, the Government being as slack as a Labour Government normally is, ,allowed this to happen as they lowered funding for the Customs force and so didn't have enough people to cover all produce coming in and the Hives slipped through, which of course thanks to bad handling and slow control, they didn't catch the hives and destroy them in time and so we now have Mites slowly but surely spreading around NSW and out. I as yet haven't seen any on my Hives, but if I do see any, I will destroy any infected Hives as well as report to my local Government Department as required. I think if I do get Mites then the war has been lost as it means every one around my area also has mites and I know there are at least four unregulated sites in my area that allow swarms and Bees to go wild. This wasn't an issue before as it allowed me to collect free Bees :) Now however it will allow Mites to spread. I am sure there are also BeeKeepers that didn't quarantine their Hives or destroy them as required and would be why they get to where I live, not sure on what the distance a Mite can travel or if they can travel far without a host ? I will stop Keeping European Bees once the Mite becomes an issue and just increase the amount of Native Stingless Hives that I have and go fully native and never need to worry about those pesky Mites as they can't infect our Aussie Stingless Bees or Sugarbag as some call them :). The Honey is as good if not better than the Euro Bees make, they just make way less per year at 1kg per year per Hive at best :).

In Australia, formaldehyde is used in commercial, chicken farms to Sterilise the sheds and to kill any pest insects from the previous batch of meat chickens. I don't know how much this helps, I used to work on the farms years ago, and we sprayed out the sheds after every batch.

So nice to see a young person talking to us oldies about "BEE CARE" They are such needed creachers on this earth ! I'm 81 and was introduced to Bees by my great uncle at a young age 5 or 6 and "no" BEE SUIT" in those days !!

Happy to hear your hives are doing better. Thanks for the info for the vaporizer temps.

To make Formic acid you have to add Glycerol. So no the oxalic acid did not make formic acid. 😁

Just FYI; UGA has a video about using OAV with brood. They say iF you only want to use OAV you would have to treat every three days for 21 days to get a good kill.

OA vapor only works for 24 hours or less. It kills most mites on bees, and in uncapped brood during that time. OA has to be exposed to high heat for long periods of time before it can have formic acid properties. Just about every treatment will stop queen laying, some less, some more, and kill brood, also some less and some more. We use 6 to 8 grams of OA per double deeps with normal colony population (45,000) bees. Smaller colonies 4 grams. We do these treatments at 40 degrees, 70 degrees or 90 degrees depending when its needed and never have had any long term issues. Not sure how you don't have more than a month of dearth. I have Beekeepers in areas in ohio, Michigan, and their death runs july till spring as the bees don't forage during late summer or winter unless they are finding orange soda in a dumpster somewhere. Unless they get a small fall flow, pollen and nectar is non existent from now till spring.

In the Uk you cant use OA with honey supers - we dont want residues in the honey. Did you sublimate or dribble? Sublimation can be problematic if you dont do it correctly at the right temperature.

If your OA vaporizer is working g correctly the OA should sublimate directly to OA vapor and not pass through the formic acid stage. It requires the high temp to do that. Perhaps your vaporizer is not calibrated correctly and not reaching the 425 degrees.

Love how well you explain each step of thinking process,,, bees are strange 🤯🧐, because they are use to taking care of themselves and don't care what we think,, it's a challenge for sure 😀

Please let us know about the overall details weather the oa turned.

Hey!! Love the videos! What brand is your bee suit ? I can’t seem to find it ;)

I would talk to the manufacturer of your vaporizer. Show them your pictures and tell them what happened.

I’m in the middle of a second every 3rd day for 21 days treatment after I got a bad mite wash result when I did a 3 treatment every 5 days and I’m getting a way better more consistent drop as opposed to my last treatment. I think frequency and what your mite count is makes a big difference from what I have seen thus far. We have about the same weather just little hotter outside Philly and I treat around 4-430 in the morning to give them time before the sun starts doing its thing.

So, what is the amount of formic acid that is produced after everything else evaporates ? Can you tell me the quantity of it ? that's so lethal to the bees. What's the percentage of formic on 1 gram of oxalic.. or 4 grams.? How much formic there can be ?

Breaking down Oxalic acid isn't whats happening to the brood. It's probably just the brood can't handle OA like the bees can. So is this a good thing? Did you just come up with a new broodless period? If what you observed is in fact whats happening? Glad to see you are a member of the noticers club.

Hi E!!! Are you guys going to do a video of harvesting honey (pulling frames, checking humidity, decapping, spinning, etc.)? Good stuff!!!

I wonder if you can check your vaporizer? Most vaporizers are set for Celsius not Fahrenheit. If I remember correctly on the video you were doing it you said you had it set for 400 but if that would happen to be on 400 C. I can see how you burn a lot of brood that would be around 730°F.

Pretend you rent a house and the owner comes every day to see if you are not damaging the floors the doors, and the walls but every time he comes his foot is dirty,you will be piss off in a week o more, now the bive have the same principle every time you go and open the bee hive you polute and distres it bee hives need to be sealed in order to be healty

I have used OA for the past two years with no problem. I use the wand with the cup on the end and a 12 volt battery to heat for 4 minutes in the hive. I wonder if the applicator from Lorob gets to hot? Good luck with your bees and keep videos coming.

Have you done any more mite counts and what was the levels?

I have to agree with another persons' comment... you don't do any treatment with supers on. If you do your winter treatment right and manage your drone brood in spring your bees will be fine till honey harvest. If you use all that protective gear while treating your bees with OA (liquid or vapour) why would it be ok to expose yourself to traces in honey?

This is really great information makes complete sense !!

Interesting. In our area it's against regulations to use OA with supers on.

Interesting…🤔😎

i only have 3 hives, was looking to only make a pint for each set of treatments....does anyone know how much OA:sugar:water i would need to use.....this is my first year. looking to do the drip method

Was the temp on the machine running high? Part of why I like the units with the temp control, you want to sublimate the OA not burn it up. Best to do all the research you can. Of ALL the times I have used it and ALL the videos I have seen it used I have never it do that. The only think I could think of if you blew the hot vapors directly on the brood area. If it was the formic production, it's a very small amount that is produced, I saw a study on this they are experimenting with OA and cap penetration. It could be you accidentally replicated part of those experiments by chance. If that is the case that means you had heavy mite loads. If it was me, I'd be wanting to adjust my mite treatment plans. I'd do a wash and find out if that brood that is being uncapped and pulled out have high mites loads? At least it's early enough that they have time to rebound, give them a little extra good food it should get them back on their feet good. Have a great day Emily, Blessed Days...

Plant the herb thyme around your bees. It's one of the ingredients in chemical mite treatment and it's natural

Fred Dunn knows, learned in one of his videos, seen them all! 3 hives strong in Amherst Ohio

oa vap with lots of brood present is a fools errand

I had someone say fumigation with oxalic acid is better than strips....... No it is not. I concluded that because I fumigated my hives twice with 4 gm of oxalic acid at the higher temp than the gas change temp and then continued to kill hundreds of mites with strips right after the pointless fumigation and then on the cound per day continued to see the count eventually go down to zero I could see that the fumigation is incomparable to the strips on the proviso Randy Oliver's way of doing it 2023 is followed meticulously to the letter. He says in his numerous excellent videos = it is possible to kill 100 % of the mites in ' a ' hive.

Interesting!

Nice good follow-up 😊thanks for sharing 👍 glad bee's 👌 are good 👍 😊

Thank you for that I do enjoy learning new information.

Bee sleuth! Brilliant observation.

Wow. Thanx for sharing this with us. Great stuff. Good on ja. ❤

Outstanding info!

Thank you Very interesting

Whoa! Wait a minute. The last video I watched of yours, you were all about treatment free and doing brood breaks in July. What changed?

How much longer before the mites become resistant to oxalic acid from over usage. Like a lot of the other treatments

I think your conclusion is wrong. I have vaped OA for many years now and have never seen what happened in your hives. Maybe the reason you damaged your hives was the way you vape? I always heat the vapouriser to 230 c and then add OA and commence treatment. I noticed you start with adding OA while the vapouriser is cooler and then commence treatment while letting the vapouriser heat up to the correct temp, I have never seen anybody use this method. I think by using the method you used ,you have cooked your bees and brood by severly overheating the hive which would explain why there was no brood because the open eggs and larvae were all killed by the heat from the vapouriser and the queen was not happy about being cooked

I think mites and mite borne viruses were killing your bees. I use oav a bunch using a mite-e vape vaporizer and have never had any issues.

The guidelines for OA treatment indicate the treatment is most effective on brood less bees

What were your mite counts at prior to treating? It’s impossible to know if a treatment is effective if you didn’t get an accurate count first. Just seeing mites on your bees is not a mite count. And if there’s a point where you can just see them the count is going to be very high. But completely unknown until you do a wash. There’s absolutely no way to determine how effective the treatment was with out performing before and after wash , treating without performing a wash before hand is very much against the basics of beekeeping My opinion, take it or leave it Your Bees covered in mites to the point where you could see them just looking over frames OA treatment starts to knock down mite load Colony needs to rebuild from infestation And I hope two applications was enough that mite load but most statistics would say that’s not enough Like I said before, makes some pads or some strips for during the summer to keep mite levels under control OA vaporize in late fall when brood is to the minimum Your 4-5 min of sealed OA that you are saying is formic isn’t going to be an effective application for capped brood

My God you dont even do the treatments properly ….. then you blame the queens. You guys are DUMM.

pathogen 🦠