Such a mess, hopeful this is just a prototype run to test the demand on EV truck. If they are bright, once they get a good feedback on EV demand they will thrash the whole thing and do a blank sheet design.
For a minute there I thought you were going to make it through an episode without saying "Tasla". Psych! Not the case. That says a lot about the engineering for Tesla: from laughing stock to benchmark.
all the trolls in here are acting like this truck is bad and it absolutely is not. They are serving my business beautifully so far. I’ll likely still buy a cybertruck to drive personally but the max tow Pro models we have are flawless as of yet
This spaghetti system only makes me more excited to see how Tesla will address thermal management for towing more than 14k lbs on their truck. Sandy's comparison between the Mach E & Tesla's thermal management was definitely an eye opener.
@@markplott4820 Somehow I doubt you checked the facts befor pressing "Reply" on that one. Data means NOTHING when you mix them up... Anyway, to drive a larger vehicle and trailer, you'd be looking at 5x or 6x the average consumption. Things will heat up. As an example, Model 3 can't actually hold speeds over 200 kph well, even though it doesn't even need 100 kW for it. Just overheats.
@@Cloxxki - model 3 SR is an every day car , using LFP. not DRIFTING, Burnouts, Dragging, or Tracking in that model. PERFORMANCE model 3 is a different BEAST of a car , WON 1st place 🥇in 2020 pikes peak w/o overheating. all STOCK , no mods. 2021 mod S PLAID, has Dual condenser, has Carbon wrapped Rotors, to withstand heat. PLAID perform well , despite bad Condition @ pikes peak in 2022.
there going to be so many purpose built things: 1. better energy management2. better vehicle weight 3. better air flow around the truck 4. smooth underside 5. better battery internal resistance 6. more efficient motors
I love these tear down videos. It’s fascinating to see how these companies approach engineering challenges differently. I hope you plan to do a tear down of Hyundai’s latest EV platform. Maybe the upcoming Ioniq 6? No apologies for the shirt, Jordan. That’s a great color on you!
And that's the difference between a clean sheet of paper cooling system design like Tesla and a parts bin raid based design like Ford has done twice now: Mach E and Lightning. While the parts bin raid seems to be faster time to production, it also locks in a lot more assembly labor and parts cost. I sure hope Ford has a team doing a clean sheet of paper cooling system design to reduce their costs when the price squeeze hits (when demand and supply equalize for EVs). Otherwise they will see their profits evaporate.
Ford already has the Labor and parts cost covered. If this was the first and only product they make it would be very inefficient to do this. But they build a LOT of F-150's every year.. The extra labor is not as significant of a factor for them. It is a messy and complicated system compared to Tesla for sure.
'a clean sheet of paper' is not what we imagine but a process that needs to go thru many iterations to achieve the goals. it's neither clean nor cheap. Tesla's scrap piles are record setting in the auto industry but things will get better with time. a big/older manufacturer doesn't want to start from scratch as that generates both waste (scraps) and time delays. that is not to say simpler solutions can't be deployed on subsequent generations...
@@DoingthingswithDAN There's a difference in the A/C oil. The electric cars need non-conductive oil - lets see how many problems Jiffy Lube can cause with contamination.
@@KingSobieski exactly! leaving only the combustible sniffer the only method left to find leaks. Not sure if you have done a.c. work for automotive before but it's very frustrating trying to find a leak without dye.
what I saw in all the effort to eliminate a cooling reservoir is an overly complicated design with more failure points, This is a problem with new vehicles many have major component failures before 100,000 miles. CVT transmissions, variable valve timing, gear driven water pumps, turbo chargers on gas engines
5:30 - You told about two alternatives in HV modules: first alternative being: DCDC converter and AC charger both as separate modules from suppliers (Ford F-150 Lightning), with dual coolant lines and dual HV connectors. Versus second alternative being: one integrated component designed and/or made in-house (Tesla Model 3/Model Y/Model S since MY22). There is actually a third way: an integrated unit for both of these function from a supplier. See BMW iX3, iX, i4, where they source an integrated CCU (combined charging unit) for both of these functions, supplied by Panasonic. One of the problems with integration however is: once Tesla has integrated the AC charger too tighthly, they cannot easily update it from lets say a 9.6 kW charger to a 19.2 kW charger. You can already see, how Tesla Model 3, Y, S MY 22 fall behind the competition, as they only offer around 10 kW of charging power, when some competitors offer around 20 kW AC charging as an option. This is important for Europe, where 22 kW AC chargers are wide spread. Another issue is different markets of the world like EU (3 phase/1phase AC), USA (1 phase AC), China (3 phase AC), which will likely need different AC chargers and different charging inlets (CCS T2, CCS T1, GB/T). With a modular design, the onbord AC charger can be swapped independently from the DCDC convertes. With integrated stuff, several integrated variants must be designed, manufactured and stored for the different markets. The same is true if you wanted to add AC-charging related features like Vehicle-To-Load or Vehicle-To-Grid. In case of modules, they can be swapped for other modules, supporting these functions like Ford did with the Pro Power system. In case of highly integrated onbord chargers, they eventually need to be redesigned and re-integrated into their environment. Tesla obviously still has some way to go towards that goal.
You didn't show a 4 way refrigerant switchover valve to allow the system to operate as a heat-pump. Did I Miss something or does this truck use restive heating?? Does it preheat the battery for fast charging and hard use?
Thanks for the rundown on the thermal management system, the first real detail of the max tow package. I paid $1k for max towing without knowing what it was, now I am so happy I did. Keep the good info coming! I hope you will include how the cab and battery are heated too.
And yet the Mach E has had no reported issues with cooling leaks. I have 33000 miles on my Mach E with no problems, while my model 3 has had to be taken to Tesla services twice with only 19000 miles on it.
@@irfanhusein1445 Small sample size certainly, but we can't forget these cooling systems run at *very* low temperatures and pressures compared to what an ICE vehicle needs to deal with, so the coolant lines don't concern me that much. Regarding the Mach, any problems with public charging? I've been looking at a Mach -E.
Diplomatic phrase of the day. . "There's only so much optimisation that you can achieve if the modules that you're putting in the vehicle are common, or carryover, or supplier driven with other programs" . Translation "We're afraid it's still a "parts bin" system"
Stop talking nonsense!? Which bin!? Do you see any ICE hardware there!? Grow up!!! It’s parts from suppliers which ford is already developing their own in house btw
@@carholic-sz3qv Definition of "parts bin" in this context.... "Modules common, carryover, supplier driven from other programs" Directly quoted from the video? As in "carried over" from other vehicles.... Parts already in the Ford system? (You said yourself "parts from suppliers") We could start with every hose you could see there? Pumps, Valves, Compressors (x2!) (Probably?) Personally I'll take the opinion of the *expert* making the comment, who's actually looked at *every* piece of "hardware" there. Why did you assume I was talking about "motors"? I didn't mention that. But if you want to compare, check your info. The Mach E (from memory) had off the shelf *drive units* from Magna (front) and *Borg Warner* (rear) as detailed in the Munro teardown. Grow up yourself. You're really quite "sensitive" on the subject? . The boot's on the other foot now? 😉
It will be a case of book it in online with a credit card and a credit check. No human even having time as you just have to arrange the loan from a bank!
Nonsense!!!! This isn’t an ICE! Things are relatively much simpler with lower pressures and temperatures….. no turbo no transmission no gearbox…… grow up
And I doubt that any repair at a Ford dealer, (Even a leaking hose), would cost less than $5000. Let the wealthy drive EV's... I'll drive my Crown Vic.
You guys do a very good job explaining the complex engineering, but I do miss Sandy's candor and judgment. That said, I suppose he has other fish to fry and avoiding idiotic comments from keyboard warriors will keep him in the game longer :-)
Cool reporting on a hot topic - you stayed chill. Thanks for a clearer understanding of the hidden costs of Inventory Builds (using off the shelf parts).
Love mine, no noise in the cabin, its quite as can get. One thing, when we talk about legacy burden, one could make a point that is also an advantage. Getting this to market quickly and without real impact to quality of product, easy service, lots of parts for repairs / accidents, etc etc.
@@carholic-sz3qv Now convince me you support "all" EV companies. The vast majority would be "happy" to see them (Ford) survive the disruption. . Many of us would have been even happier if 1) They had realised (admitted) there WAS a disruption much earlier. And 2) They (along with others) hadn't actively fought those trying to move it forward (we still have certain suspect comments even from Jim now and then) (Take a look at your own "comment history")
Ford will do great so long as they don't copy Tesla's anti-consumer practices. Such as the unrepairable 4680, over charging customers for the vehicles, anti-independent repair, charging $15,000 for NON self driving, etc.
@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn You know, if you want to buy a Mach E battery, it will cost you the same price as a brand new Mach E. Also that sealed battery that Tesla uses is rumoured to be the million mile battery. There will be advancements and cheaper alternative battery by the time you reach that mile, you probably not care for fixing old tech battery.
This confirms that Ford loves hoses and pipes so it can connect all parts, bits and pieces from various module vendors to cobble together their electric vehicles. Reminds me of old Tinker Toys where you had to take weird pieces and make them fit together to make something.
Yes, there may be more hoses, components, fasteners, etc., on the Mach-E and Lightning when compared to a Tesla and therefore more failure points. And that may be driven by having to use off the shelf parts for maximizing ROI. But, do they work? Do Fords tend to have lots of failures when it comes to internal cooling and HVAC applications? There may be more parts, but that doesn't always mean low quality.
I'm "loving" the comments from the "increasingly sensitive" types who can't stand the "diplomatic critique" of this system by the Munro team. (That wouldn't include you by any chance?)
Curiosity question. When your costing reports are prepared, how do you establish cost for a component that may be used on multiple platforms? Are your reports based on the planning volume of the specific model? Lightning vs F150 for example. Another great video. Thanks
I read all 392 comments to date. By far, the leading concern is the complexity/reliability and associated accessibility to find and repair issues in the cooling system. Not being able to readily access all components of this system is a potential deal breaker to me. I believe it would be beneficial for Munro to do a Q&A video on the Lightning like they did for the 4680 battery pack and address these and other issues. They could possibly help assuage my concerns.
@@bru512 Positive Temperature Coefficient (of resistance) - it means the resistance of the heating element changes with temperature. If its cold, it has low resistance and draws a lot of power generating a lot of heat. If its warmer outside, its resistance rises and it draws less power generating less heat. Therefore, it has self-regulating features. PTC cabin heaters make it clear, that their energy comes from electricity and that a peak power draw is relatively short.
This is what people buying these other evs aren’t told by the manufacturer or other RU-vidrs that get paid to hype them… Their so far behind Tesla when it comes to battery, bms, pack and so much else.
And once they start leaking, based on the duty cycle of 10 years, you can replace them as needed. Once fully integrated systems fail, you can take pride in all that superior engineering and replace entire units.
@@ProjectFairmont Why would a fully integrated system fail? If it's largely passive, with a few ancillaries bolted on, you change those parts. Anyway, we're talking "ground up design" rather than "fully integrated". . Another consideration. Component (or line/ connector) fails. Time to diagnose, find to exact point of failure remove the part, refit the new part? "The best part is *certainly* no part"
@@rogerstarkey5390 true and in an ideal world failure would never happen and to strive for that would be most commendable. Alas, this rarely happens, as every component has a duty cycle failure point. I see both sides; if a major integrated system fails, perhaps this is best in terms of a one time shot at it, vs death by a thousand (albeit of less individual expense) cuts. Certainly conventional ICE engines are not integrated and that is how we deal with it now after 10 years of service. Not everything fails at once. I am not in the business of auto design or repair, and either by piece meal or of integrated hardware wouldn’t prevent me or sway my final decision on a purchase of a desired vehicle.
The FUD Lightweight thermal system is a JOKE. in a TOWING test by TE, the Thermal system overheated, and they had to cool down . NOT even MAX towing, and could NOT charge very fast, because of High Temp. FUD motors still has LOTS of work to IMPROVE their thermal system, to TESLA standard.
To be fair, Tesla has to show "how" it will manage the thermals of big vehicles. Loads on a car are very different than loads on a truck. Tesla HVAC is integrated & simple, so easy to make + lower cost. But does it have "better" performance characteristics? I doubt that.
Wouldn't the radiator cause less air resistance and drag if the fins were "stair stepped" so they actually were horizontal, instead of just taking a conventional radiator and installing it at an angle? Less conventional, so more expensive, but more effecient?
@@laloajuria4678 suppliers are what makes oems function now A days and enable on-time deliveries and specialized expertise . Tesla is not as vertically integrated as Elon would like you to believe- they are more so than most but also why they consistently fail to deliver on time and are minimalist in design with software defined functions up the butt XD
Really interesting video! Based on what you're seeing, do you think having the Max Tow Package increases fast charging capabilities by reducing thermal throttling?
@@bartwaggoner2000 makes me excited to see how much they improve on the next lightning from the all new blue oval city in TN in 2025. Farley said it would be controversially styled and have at least 75-100 more miles of range out of the same size battery pack as this truck has. So I'm thinking heat pump, battery pre conditioning, 300+kwh charging, 800v system etc for that ground up truck. Interesting he also said mach e would get lfp next year and the lightning would get lfp pack's in 2024(he didn't clarify though if that's 2024 model year or 2024 calender year?
@@rogerstarkey5390 basically yes, although the ram ev truck has yet to debut. Should be an interesting space in just a few more year's. Lordstown might actually get the endurance out thanks to foxconn. Atlis motor vehicle might bring the xt to market. Rivian supposedly has an r2 series truck with dual in house motors and lfp pack's coming in 2024 ish. 🤔
Might be a lot better actually due to less extreme thermal cycling of the much cooler running temps for an ev vs 200-240° ice engine. With turbos absolutely baking all the stuff underhood and transmissions also get very hot under loads and heavy use. No turbos, no exhaust, no transmission on this setup. 🤔
🤗👍THANKS JORDAN AND ANDREW and ERIC,THE WHOLE MUNRO TEAM FOR MAKING THIS FOR US (on UTUBE)AND HOPEFULLY creating more Interest for sales 🤔 JORDAN We love ❤️ the bright SALMON shirt 😎and it matches your black pants , and ANDREW matches what we expect an engineer to look 👀 like 😁 NO OFFENSE ANDREW 🤗💚💚💚
Please Ford, continue like this. I prefer to change hoses than a whole electronic unit just to save some hoses and heat exchangers. F150s are workhorses trucks, not a fancy car, so repairability and avalability with a good price is really important.
Looks like an improvement over the Mach E, but still way to many lines and connections.. But you didn't address those issues here. Thing here is that it is still a cobbled together system instead of a totally ground up design. That means compromise, increased cost, and less efficient design.
Those 9,000 A/C fittings are going be fun in 10 years when they start developing leaks and the truck has to be torn down to replace them. Tell me about planned obsolescence
Based on quantity of spaghetti hoses with numerous points of failure, I wonder how much more reliable Lightning will be over ice version of F150. Do Tesla EVs have this many hoses?
It's important for people to realize that the pressure in the liquid coolant loops are unlike those found in combustion vehicles. They never reach anything close to boiling, thus are only pressurized by the pumps that circulate the fluid. (OK, there's a bit of thermal expansion as well, thus the small expansion tank) I much prefer these more recent videos over Mr. Munro's nonstop Tesla ads that we saw in the past.
What happens to all these teardowns Munro does? Even if they are put back together, you couldn't resell the vehicle other than salvage, right? Warranty is obviously voided. Quite an expensive analysis. I'm still surprised they got a $100K Platinum when a lesser trim would have served the purpose.
Crazy question, does the pony compressor also run in a heat pump mode? In the northlands a cold battery is a weak battery so having a low power method to bring it up to operation temperature without sacrificing extra range. One comment about hoses. While unattractive and messy they allow the freedom to distribute devices and can be diagnosed or replaced individually. A complicated manifold while tidy can be more difficult to diagnose, repair/ clean.. integration also has costs. Integrating a compressor and manifold for a custom design vs an off the shelf unit that can be replaced with any other potential brand or specification for say a new refrigerant or additional circuit, capacity, in case of a recall… imagine if all those companies couldn’t lay the blame on Takata how many millions more each one would have lost. It’s my main thing against Tesla, their cars are meant to be assembled once. As a sustainable modeled company the average everyday accidents shouldn’t wipe out sooo much bodywork. Hit an average car and there are many parts designed to be replaced semi-economically by comparison. If you really want sustainable autos look at the old London cabs. Same car for like 40 years, now you could scale that like interchangeable building blocks and update motors, transmission, fenders, doors, etc and as long as it doesn’t dissolve you’re winning.😉 talk about tuner dream car BIY build it yourself!
Hi Guys, Very nice video! Did you try to review CAN communications between the modules in the thermal management system? Would be nice to see such report
It was (is) a dilemma for ford. Limited time (playing catch-up. Limited Funds(?) result? "MacGyver" it. Then, the pile of parts is given to engineers used to "conventional" systems and you get...... A "conventional" system adapted for the new requirement.
It’s scary to see how many hoses this has. However I’ve had no issues at all with my Mach E. I have 46,000 miles on mine and had to spend only $20 on a tire rotation. No other maintenance needed.
It’s a rats nest cobbled together system that reflects the rush-to-market nature of this vehicle. In the meantime ford is developing a blank page EV but this ain’t it.
Why have ford's always been spaghetti monsters? In 2008 we cross shopped a new ford power stroke vs a dodge with the cummins. The dodge was wide open under the hood where the ford was jam packed with hoses and wires and not an ounce of room to do anything.
When you say truck you must also include the elements the truck will be in whether it's snow, salt, mud or underwater. That looks like it's going to be spaghetti mess when it goes outside. Road grime will make that a dead piece in short order. Why bother with that when gasoline is more energy dense?
I’ve been a technician for over 35 years replacing some of those cooling lines is going to be a nightmare ! Ford needs to come up with a manifold system to eliminate some of that tangled mess! Does Ford have any idea what the road salt is going to do to those aluminum lines 😂.
All these parts is this how we save are resources? Ford will get wealthy selling all these specialty parts. How is access to these parts for the mechanic who has to repair them? What will be the labor rates for EV dealer shops twice the ice rates?
