This is where learning takes place. There is too much dogma in the climbing world where we heard this one thing from someone once and now it’s gospel. I love that you guys actually test things out.
Sharing an anecdote on this one because I loved the first two minutes of this video and 22:23 in particular. During my AMGA RGC, we were taught ascending a rope with a garda hitch and how it was completely safe to do so as a standalone ascending system when used with any two matching non-lockers. Off I went to ascend a rope (a ~10mm dynamic rope) and about 15 feet off the ground I noticed both non-lockers becoming splayed and one of the gates opening similar to what is happening at 22:23. Welp, the instructors felt it didn't look right but we couldn't exactly figure out why, so I put myself on a grigri and lowered back down. Since then I really haven't liked the garda hitch for any critical application. To your point, it's just too unreliable and has too many random failure modes for me to put my life or my friends life on it.
I'm glad your "calling out" specific people, and I hope they are humble enough to reply to this video with their erroneous info. Again, 50 plus years climbing and I'm confident this video (and your standard approach to these matters) will address all the "cow manure" info out their produced by alleged "experts," that too often have more "hubris" than actual broad spectrum time on a vertical (or horizontal...LOL!!!) line...You, your channel and team are a blessing to the "on rope" community...
This is the best climbing video I've seen in a long time! The science is real. I really want to see how reliable "HMS opposite and opposed" is in the real world.
Hi there... Yes, I heared about this method from a small book as a teenager. There it was described as a rescue method out of a glacier or similar (hopefully, me English makes sense to you). Funny thing is, that I tried it at home just several weeks ago and my impression was, that one should better use non-locking D-shaped Carabiners - also as it was described in my little book. The result was like you told the audience in the video - D-shaped and non-locking Carabiners were adequate in using this method. The carabiners also should be held together like you showed it. Otherwise the carabiners could slip apart. As a rescue method it might be pretty useful, because there is a stopping function applied with it (spoken out of memory, because the little book is sadly lost somewhere). Thank you for this video. I found it very interesting. Wish you all the best :-)
For the love of god please change your titles to something searchable. The content is fantastic but it's impossible to tell what the video will be about and even harder to find it later when you want to show someone. Even if you just change the title 3 days after posting like Veritasium does to get the clickbait boost and then make the title useful. Again, love what you're doing, it's great. Just please make the titles tolerable.
Agreed, searchable videos would be great! So many things from this channel I want to find every now and then. Then again, perhaps it's intentional that it's not searchable, as it's not always meant as actual guides?
When you type search terms into youtube, it is actually pretty good at finding the video you are looking for, even if the title contains none of the search terms you entered. For example, if you type in "hownot2 microtraxion" it will pull up his falling on a microtraxion video, even though the title is something like "petzl said never do this". This video was exceptionally helpful and I'm super glad I watched it, but since I'd never heard of the garda hitch before, I'm not sure I would've clicked on it, if it was just titled something about the garda hitch. And thus, I learned something I actually wanted to know without first knowing I wanted to know it.
Yeah watching you girth hitch something that's supposed to be your last resort and then completely dropping it shows how fast things can go south. literally
@@kevinalfano3108 lol yeah, I'm just saying how fast something goes wrong not that its this specific situation, could tie something wrong or make any other mistake just as fast. Shows mistakes happen to anyone at any experience level
@captaincrackhead904 Definitely, I have dead best friends, dead doctor, dead acquaintances, dead folk we share beta with, and local photographers forgetting to clip stuff at a belay and falling to their death. Every year folk I know die in the Canadian Rockies. You come here to die, not climb
Outstanding work. As always dude. I absolutely love the systematic supergoodenoughscience approach to covering everything you can possibly think of. Fantastic. You take this approach a lot and in this video you do it perfectly.
If anyone is looking for any non-clinbimg uses for this, you can also use it to make a great truckers hitch. I did it with a 5:1 and a 7:1 ratio using this hitch as a slack holder at the 2nd pulley in the 5:1 and the 2nd pulley in the 7:1 as well.
In Italian alpinism we have 2 similar hitches which are far superior imo (only 2 carabiners needed). The "Va e Vieni" and the "Edi Lorenzi", they don't pinch the rope between the carabiners and they both are safer as they don't randomly undo as you use them. The "Va e Vieni" is my fav as it allows you to either take rope or give out slack in case you have to lower your partner. I'm wondering also how they perform compared to the garda hitch, maybe in a next video? 😜
Free Soloing requires 0 caribiners. In seriousness though, thanks for the video! I've known about this but never truested it, partly because I heard too much conflicting info. Still handy to have in the arsenal though!
Thanks for the lesson. I'll do my best to avoid having to rely on the garda hitch by always having a prussik, a microtrax/rollnlock or at least a sling to serve as a prussik. Thanks !
I remember in 1982, when I had no partner, I used this knot a lot for top roping on my Beal 11mm and 2 Pierre Allain carabiner. The knot was at the top. Climbing on one end and pulling the slack on the rope beside. The challenge was that there were no coming back.
Thank you for addressing the issue of the many ways you "have to do" a certain technique when using gear. It can be a little overwhelming when you're researching the safest way to do things and you get many conflicting answers lol
I am one of those fools that used to try stuff in the wild without practicing at home. I don't do that anymore because it's just plain dumb. Listen to Ryan.
Great video. I use this with opposite facing lockers to pull loads in yard all the time. With multiple carabiners and loops for 3:1s I have lifted 600kg+ easy with a bad back.
Oh my, contradiction galore! I love documentation. Documentation is great. Redundancy is great. Redundant documentation is only a quick proof-read away from being wrong. Published contradictory redundant documentation is comedy gold. Oh the incompetence! Good work, friend. I love your videos, dedication, and presentation! Keep being amazing!
You can get progress capture on any single carabiner, ring, or loop of rope by passing the working end through twice. Many people use this function for an automatic hold truckers hitch.
For the pedants out there, the oval lockers weren't locked on the white rope, you can see the gate open slightly which makes the carabiner shift position, causing the slip. Not that it matters at all XD Love the work Ryan, keep it up!
This is, by far, the best channel for all things climbing, tying, ropes, safety, and fun. Ryan, you’re a national treasure. Which national park do you want renamed after you next year when society collapses? I’ll be sure to add it to my hand drawn maps.
Looking at this, I feel like I'd want non-locking D carabiners for this. They worked universally regardless of the rope or if they were hitched or on a carabiner. This kinda works out well then, because you can usually take those off a quickdraw in an emergency.
I'm a tree climber, and the way we do things is pretty different from the rest of the climbing world, but from my perspective, this technique, while it sort of technically works, begs the question: Why? If you want a backup ascent/decent tool, buy a high temperature prusik/split tail, tie your favorite knot from the prusik family and use a micro pulley to pull up your knot and capture progress. With the right knot/rope combination, it really doesn't slip, and you don't have to depend on sketchy stuff like non-locking carabineers. If you need to descend on a prusik, you can, even on a static/single rope system, as long as you take up some of the friction outside the knot (I.E. a munter, a brake hand with a glove, or, if you're fancy, something like an ISC rope wrench). For reference, I use 30", 10mm Armor-Prus hitch cord, tied to Yale XTC-16 (13mm) with a Distel as my primary life support setup and I can't cause the knot to fail to grab unless I deliberately loosen the knot up manually (and usually it still grabs). If the knot isn't tied well, the rope will occasionally sort of run though the knot a bit while under load, but this results in a very slow decent, a couple inches a second at worst in my experience; annoying, but easily fixed and not dangerous at all. As an alternative to a proper foot ascender, maybe, I guess? But of course, foot ascenders aren't exactly expensive, or particularly heavy.
I still don’t climb but use rope a lot in tree swings and tie downs. Fascinating content. And thx for changing up to the more frequent vids! I like it 🥂
Great video showing thinking outside the box. How knowing about concepts can help you reason through issues. Just harder to do when cold, wet, and hanging off a rock face. Keeping the biners together - this is why you carry duct tape. Just duct tape the biners together as a back-up. grin I wonder what would happen with lockers if you offset them - a gate on each side. Like with the biner brake bar - 4 biners at right angles to create a brake bar for rappelling. Maybe provide a link to the adjustable sling that you are using.
Great content, as always! I suspect another big factor in how well this system works might be the actual shape of the karabinier, meaning the cross section of it. Specifically where the rope is pinched! I would be curious to see the difference between same shaped (HMS, D, oval) with different profiles (H, round, etc). This will probably also affect how well the two biniers will sit together.
1:51 ahh the google… works that way for anything you search lol including faith questions and political.. we need more smart posts like this that put it all together and test it. Thanks for all your hard work !🎉
2 matching wire gates, 1 HMS locker, 1 smaller locker, a sling of each size, half, single, double, triple, a hollow block loop, 10 to 15m of cord chopped into 5m sections, a half rope, and a harness, maybe a few pitons, and that is a soloing rack in the alpine. 😅 Make sure your axe has a hammer that hasn't been broken smashing pins - No device necessary, silly extra weight. Girth hitch raps. Just flip your rope if you run it girthed the whole length to hopefully undo twisting in the core. Harness optional, when we simul-solo'd Hungabee, bro brought a nylon sling to diaper harness his raps down 😂 And I have also done that, harnesses are heavy and take up room in your pack, or you just forget it.
Thank you for doing this video, I had the same question on these multiple recomendations :) One thing I didn't find on the internet, be that pro or against is to use a garda to ascend two ropes (as progress capture device). I tested in a safe environment and worked on my case (2 non-locking Ds from my quickdraw on my belay loop with 10mm fuzy nylon rope) but would love to see at least a short from you testing out this case.
And as always perfect video! Thanks for doing this stuff. It has tremendous value for everyone that wants to understand things an keep with current methodology. And not just use it because it was written somewhere or taught by someone 15 years ago. :))) During watching your video one question came to my mind: What slippage can be considered as "safe" for lowering someone lets say 80kgs? How much can be safely held by hand? How much slippage has Munter hitch / ATC in belay loop? Thank you!
I don't even climb and I LOVE these videos! :-) Thanks... should I ever climb, I'm gonna feel a teeny bit of inner smugness and hopefully a teeny bit safer!
Looking forward to the video on how to treat the end of your rope. I cut mine after it took a particularly big fall, but I've never been super happy with the new ends
Stress changes everything. I practiced Munter hitch a lot at home. First time I had to use it on a multipitch, it took me FOREVER to make it, and I still wasn't sure it was correct. Very hard to remember stuff in a real stress situation, brain just doesn't work.
looks like it is making the carabiners into a form resembling a "double ring belt buckle". - there is another kitsch trinket idea - spring gate carabiner belt buckles - for webbing belts.. If the carabiners are merely in the bight of a sling it may work - BUT they also may fail- if the position shifts - time for Ryan to prove through testing... Great work satirising the google result score... 6knN in a near static scenario is plenty for a friction device. A set of opposite D-s , locking or not, on a girth hitched 8mm loop can't be a bad thing as an accessory - some additional Prusik loops - for a fast Klemheist hitch or 2 - always a great little backup... .
in relation to your repeated comments about practice something before you do it on the wall. I’d like to say that your videos about gear anchors and other people videos I’ve watched. Really came in handy on pitch 4 of a trad climbing I did in Squamish BC when having to do my first one ever never practiced it before lol. It went well took a video sent to a friend who is a guide there opinion I did well.
I've seen so many of your pulls on gear that I can roughly guess the force needed to break things based on the sound of the machine. I had all of these within +/- 2 kN LOL
Hey Ryan, I dont know if you remember that Email, but I'm that guy from germany, with the rope braking system for gyms. If you're interested and settled with the on site store, just hit me up! I'll make sure to convince my boss that its worth it. :D
To be fair, at 10:00 you could also just skip the carabiners and attach your foot loop sling by tying a friction hitch around your line, e.g., the FB-Kreuzklemm knot.
Also in a crevasse rescue scenario we swap the foot loop for a 3 to 1 with a progress capture to get over the lip of the crevasse not because we think it's more efficient.
That was really cool, i would like to see a comparsion of it withthe edi/lorenzi/Stuflesser ( however you want to call it)or the french backstop which ist able to be unloaded under tension. greats from germany
Would definitely never use this in a cave where ascending over a longer distance and obviously in the dark you don't keep a constant light and eyeball on each of multiple ascenders...thanks for your testing.
Can you test the nodo a cuore? It’s basically a variant of it that shouldn’t have any problem with the carabiners, and is basically the knot that you found nothing about on the internet…
There is way to clip second carabiner into munter hitch to make it one way. Maybe it would work better, since it can be done with two locking carabiners and serves same purpose.
I'm going to experiment with these on rope solo redirects. The slipknots and clove hitches are too difficult to untie if they've taken a number of falls. I think if I clove or do a slip above this one and then take some falls I can see if it keeps the above knot from over tightening. If it slips, no big deal, not going to have a lot of slack in it anyway.
When I first learned about the Garda hitch, I was told the most important thing to remember was any 2 were good but they had to be MATCHING non-lockers. - I love learning all the different techniques to do stuff, but I find I don’t really use anything else but the basics because its all you need. KISS all the way! (Keep It simple stupid)
Seems you have stumbled on a new config with the HMS. Some folks might spend time in the alpine with nothing but 3 HMS carabiners, 20m of rope, and a sling for steep ski touring, this might actually have a use case.
I prefer the one-way Munter over the Garda. Less friction, more piece of mind using 2 lockers and no backup for it (other than your hand). Nice tool to know when you are climbing multipitch in a party of 3, just lead a pitch and forgot to grab the Gigi / Ovo from the last leader, and all you have is a GriGri... and you want to belay both followers up at the same time.
What about doing a short where you test this with a Petzl Freino carabiner (the one with a small carabiner on the back of the spine)? Interesting subject
Could you add a test of 2 wire-lock skinny quickdraw carabiners? :) wondering if you could use it in case you f*ed up big time and all you are left with is a quickdraw :)
going to have to try this out on sling mountan, 4ox3mm steel box with plate's welded to it to stop it moving that i do extreem dangaling from the loft hatch in my house it's awesome for trying stuff like this out it's also where i lernt how to swap to assending to desending a rope and vice versa.
A couple edelrid sliders works great for a locking garda since the gate is the same size as a regular solid non-locking gate. But even so, what situation would you have two matching slider lockers but no other means of ascension? Niche, but possible I guess.
